Shasha,

I very much liked your post of 11 May 2011 on the ‘Praying for others thread’. Your discussion of one’s motivation in praying was very nicely put and worthwhile. Certainly there is much food for thought regarding why we are praying for something / someone and whether our motivation is sourced in God’s will or in our own ego. Are we praying in Christ’s name or our own? Are we asking for God’s will to be done or our own? Are we praying from neurosis or compulsion in some regard perhaps? I like what you’ve presented there.

And I agree that sometimes codependency considerations could be at play in the praying person’s motivations.

Your discussion in one or two aspects as mentioned below is new and foreign to me though. Certainly all our discussions at SP regarding energizing and kundalini are novel to our Christian heritage, and we’ve been endeavoring to put it into perspective. Nevertheless, as of now, I have some discomfort I must admit

You had written:
*****************************
“Furthermore, there’s the issue of energy. Our thoughts and especially our soulish prayers are infused with energy, just ordinary spiritual energy. That energy is easily sent to another in the form of prayer. I don’t think that is a good thing. If you want to do ‘white magic,‘ that’s it, and it will work. And you may think God answered it, but it was your own personal energy or some other spirit. If one is energetically sensitive, they are more prone to feeling the impact of such thought/energy exchanges. This kind of energy sensitivity is a vulnerability and needs to be respected as such, without undue scrupulosity.”
*****************************

Can you expound a little on how you came to believe in the concept of ‘white magic’? You say with conviction that it works. Evidently you believe in its validity. In essence you are putting faith in it. Are there any books, posts, or other media materials you can mention that I might read or listen to that address this?

Are Christians unprotected from such interference on our wills or lives? Is this similar to the power of the curse? Is this what Silva mind control is? If not, what are the caveats as you understand it all. Is soulish prayer as you explain it – where our intentions might not be evil per se, just neurotic or ego-based, any different from what something like mind control is? I don’t know what Silva mind control really is mind you, just that I’ve heard the term and imagine it is occultish; whereas a Christian’s imperfect-motivated prayer to me would not be occultish.

Similarly, energy transfer: you say one’s soulish prayers especially are infused with energy and easily sent to another. Where have you learned this? It’s all foreign to me. Over the years I have done a good deal of spiritual reading and listening and this subject matter I have not come across.

All this is conceptually kind of serious to embrace straight off. There are some theological issues perhaps in all this. And it might unnecessarily undermine one’s praying for others – especially if it raises fears or scruples that their prayer would harm another if not perfectly motivated or would harm themselves. Now one has to go through a discernment process for fear of affecting another negatively? Traditionally, one has to assent to thoughts via their free will for the damage of sin (even as missing the mark) to be realized.

It’s my understanding from what I have read and heard that the devil has no access to a person’s thoughts. That one’s mind is sacred space. The devil and his kin can learn much from observing our behavior and hearing our converse (Lol -- as psychologists can) and can endeavor to affect one’s thoughts (tempt) but cannot know one’s thoughts or exercise another’s free will. While this is not the exact same issue as your white magic concept it might bear on it. Your concept implies one CAN stress another’s thought life and thereby perhaps their emotional and physical life (since they are all interlaced) by means of one’s prayers, in ways similar to the devil’s. Your concept implies God allows that stressing to occur -- that this is within the realm of His permissive will. This is a kind of voodoo. Is it not? Is it not voodoo but without the dolls and needles. Seems to me it is. One sits and prays and affects another being negatively – in either their emotions, spirit, physical body or some combination thereof. I don’t believe in voodoo. I believe voodoo is a deceit of the devil. I don’t believe Christians should give any authority to voodoo or curses in any way. One gives this deceit authority via belief in it. Christians should not accept such thought; should not buy into the deceit. You seem to be giving authority to this based on your post where you’ve stated: “If you want to do ‘white magic,‘ that’s it, and it will work.”

Energy sensitivity as vulnerability is another idea I would like to better understand. Is such sensitivity also a blessing (as well as a curse so to speak) or is it essentially a negative. Where does it come from – from victimization? Or does this take one to the Highly Sensitive Person (HSP) arena. (I’m guessing it might and really don’t want to go into that though since it might confound the white magic discussion).

I have started a new thread on this, though it could have been a continuance of the ‘Praying for others’ discussion. Since this is in itself a kind of separate topic that one might seek info on I have posted it here. Phil can move it somewhere else if he wants.

Pop-pop

For starters, what I mean by white magic more commonly called "energy healing" in the current cultural milieu.

It is any attempt to affect healing (through prayer in this context) by one's own good intentions, using one's own spiritual energy. This doesn't have to be a formal technique or program, though there's lots out there by various names (usually involving visualization or laying on of hands). Reiki could be considered a form of white magic, I suppose.

Here's a good article

Discernment of Energy Healing
by Robert T. Sears, SJ, PhD

It gives good examples, an intro into the theology of energy healing, some criteria to evaluate it as an authentic Christian tool, etc.


http://www.earthhealing.info/D...Energy%20Healing.pdf

A couple of bona fide Christian healers I've read have warned about energy healing as they've discerned a difference between Christ's Holy Spirit affecting healing and their own prowess. Agnes Sanford is one. I've mentioned her before. In "Blessings or Curse," Derek Prince talks about the dangers of soulish prayers--positive and negative.

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:
.... This is a kind of voodoo. Is it not? Is it not voodoo but without the dolls and needles. Seems to me it is. One sits and prays and affects another being negatively – in either their emotions, spirit, physical body or some combination thereof. I don’t believe in voodoo. I believe voodoo is a deceit of the devil. I don’t believe Christians should give any authority to voodoo or curses in any way. One gives this deceit authority via belief in it. Christians should not accept such thought; should not buy into the deceit...

Many of the Christian healing ministers and ministries that I've studied attest to the reality of curses / voodoo type spells. Virtually all the Christian deliverance ministries have sections dedicated to breaking off curses. You've not read anything about the reality of curses? or you just don't believe the accounts/descriptions?

About curses/spells, I'm copying what I wrote years ago from another thread "Kundalini and deity." It's about an Indian Catholic priest's encounter with praying for a girl who was cursed.
----------------------------

Here is an excerpt from a book, Deliverance from Evil Spirits, by Francis MacNutt. He and Derek Prince are the most balanced, intelligent and gifted ministers in this area, each having about 30 years of experience.

"In 1977 I met a fine priest in India, Fr. Rufus Pereira, who in two brief years had prayed to free more than four hundred individuals from demonic influence. He estimated that about one third of them were delivered from demons identifying themselves as Hindu gods. I should mention that Fr. Rufus is not a wild-eyed enthusiast but a highly educated seminary professor who studied Scripture in Rome and is highly regarded by the Indian bishops, who gave him permission to perform exorcisms."

Fr. Rufus acknowledged the noble aspects of religion in India but was also willing to face the darker, demonic side of Hindu culture. He graciously granted me an interview, in which he said:

"I love my country very much and have great respect for Indian religion, but perhaps there is no religion that has within itself such a wide spectrum, ranging all the way from the highest form of religious endeavor to the lowest degradation of humanity all in the name of religion. I have been led to believe that many of the gods and goddesses in Hindu mythology are nothing other than demons." p. 112

He goes on to describe a case of possession of Catholic girl who, during a conference, was taken into a classroom and was laid out on a table, assuming 'the dancing posture' of shiva, the dancing god. Though she knew nothing about Indian dancing, "Yet, here she was, assuming the absolutely correct dancing poses in her fingers, her wrists, her hands and feet the exact poses of this very god. It was something fantastic to watch, as her eyes and her mouth were all changed into the features of this Hindu god. I later found that it got into her because of a spell cast by a Hindu doctor." P. 113.
-----------

Bible scholar, Derek Prince, who wrote
Blessing or Curse: You Can Choose
reports that the word "curse" in various forms occurs about 230 times in the Bible.

Shasha,

Thanks for the time and effort you’ve spent in making your responses and for the references you’ve found and have provided.

This discussion should prove interesting.

First off, I’d like to reiterate the focus of my concern. This discussion topic is a result of material in the posts from the ‘Praying for others’ thread. There we were discussing intercession (praying for others). You had done a nice job in addressing the fact that sometimes our motivations in praying for things or for others stem from our own wills and not God’s will.

My concern and the questions I put forward are based on the thought that your discussion of prayer energy and white magic could unnecessarily undermine one’s praying for others. These concepts could raise fears or scruples that one’s prayers would harm another (if not perfectly motivated) or would harm oneself. You had expressed that belief in strong terms. Also, I envisioned that as a consequence one might believe they now had to go through a discernment process for fear of affecting another negatively.

And indeed, such inhibitions towards praying for others were mentioned in a subsequent post.

Inhibiting prayer, inhibiting praying for others seems counterproductive even evil perhaps, in that it seems something the devil would delight in. Having imperfect motivations is an entirely different thing than that prayer energy, that you stated was easily sent, could produce harm in another or in oneself. This is the focus of what I would like to discuss.

I have never read or heard anyone state cautions regarding praying for others or express negatives regarding praying for others. The only caution I had ever heard regarding prayer was the caution regarding deliverance prayer. That prayer is not praying FOR someone (is not intercessory), but rather praying AT a demonic / evil spirit. And there is in Acts 19:13-19 text supporting the need for caution, as some exorcists were beaten up – though they were not Christians either

Now, in your responses you mentioned curses, the demonic, deliverance, spells, authentic Christian healers and energy healers; and I had mentioned voodoo so it was kind of natural for you to respond as you had and address these topics. I will try to respond to all, but in the end I hope we can retain focus on whether or not praying for others can harm others and whether we should be inhibited in intercessory regards.

Regarding the reality of curses and spells: this is ‘off topic’. A Christian’s intercessory prayer is not the casting of spells nor the forming of curses. And I do not believe one can negatively affect someone by praying for them even though a Christian’s motivations are not perfect or stem from their ‘false self’ or ‘flesh’ to some degree. If a Christian’s intentionality is for good and not evil then I do not believe there is justification for saying harm can be done to another or to oneself. Isn’t the good of another what intercessory prayer is all about? By its very nature its intentionality is toward good not evil. And of course ‘God’s will be done’ determines what’s done (i.e. the outcome). To my way of thinking (a thinking based on a goodly amount of reading and hearing –albeit not Derek Prince) intercession is ‘asking’, asking God, and is not ‘transmitting’ energies to others (negative or positive).

It’s the Spirit in me (a Spirit who makes all things work for good) -- and yes maybe a lot or all of me (fleshly me) -- who is asking / interceding to the Father. But to say that as a Christian (one in whom the Spirit dwells as a consequence of Baptism) I can somehow transmit energy leaf- to-leaf or branch-to-leaf (without the Spirit being involved), that is, not via the sap that flows through the vine, is incorrect. The Spirit is always with us – even when we sin. One’s intentionality is always known to God. And the prayer recipient’s well being is always desired by our good God – whether the recipient is yet a Christian or not, is in the vine or not, and whether or not the intended recipient is a terrible sinner. God’s desire is always for the good and always for the precluding of evil.
The influence of imperfect motivations (soulish-ness) is not a factor since God makes all things work for good.

Since, I admit, I haven’t read the Derek Prince book you reference, I guess I will have to read it – something I hadn’t planned on. I hope it’s good.

Relative to your asking: “You've not read anything about the reality of curses? or you just don't believe the accounts/descriptions?”-- No, I haven’t. I have read books on Deliverance, and I have attended Charismatic Renewal Conferences wherein MacNutt preached and conducted healing services and I have read his book Healing several times.
I don’t recall anything on curses and spells per se –though I might have forgotten a passage.

I realize that the Bible mentions curses numerous times (though I hadn’t bothered to count how many and I bet most if not all are OT passages except perhaps for Jesus telling us not to attempt to curse others). BTW, here I believe His telling us not to curse another was not because anything spiritual could go on energy-wise, but because the condition of heart that cursing another entails is in itself evil, is hate based.

Now, the fact that deliverances and exorcisms attend those who have opened themselves to the occult, and the examples of the Hindus in the story you quote also attend the need for exorcisms and might involve spell-related beliefs I realize such to be true.

However, Christians are covenanted and under God’s protection and if they don’t open themselves to the occult, they need have no fear relative to spells and curses. The demonic has no power in that regard. And we are to put faith in that. Psalm 91, as one scriptural example, addresses God’s providential care and protection. We should not put faith in any deceit of the devil.

Spells and curses are non-issues relative to a Christian’s intercessory prayer for others, anyway.

Relative to curses and spells -- these thoughts come to my mind:

1. A parent tells their child to be in before dark or the boogey man will get them. The child, based on the authority of the parent, puts faith in the lie of the reality of the boogey man and winds up fearing the dark for the rest of his life. Is there a boogey man? No. There is only the belief in a lie. But belief in a lie has an effect certainly.

2. A close friend of mine told me of her uncle who was a painter by trade. A little old Italian woman put the ‘eye’ on him one day. He never climbed up on a ladder for the rest of his life. He put his belief in a lie, a deceit of the devil.

3. In the past year in three different countries I saw on prime time news, accounts of members of political standing and/or parliament performing animal sacrifices to ward off curses and spells that they believed would accrue if they didn’t. Was it necessary to do so? No. They have put, and will continue to put, their belief in the deceit of the devil. Faith in lies will bear its own fruit and grow its own vine.

4. Four hundred years ago the Aztecs offered human sacrifices of between 20,000 to 80,000 people whom they beheaded in dedication of their temple putting belief in the lie that their harvests would be richer based upon such sacrifices. Was that necessary?

The child, the painter, the civic officials, the Aztecs – all inhibited by their fears. Fears based on deceit and superstition. Faith placed in lies.

I think voodoo is all bluff and deceit and only has strength (seeming validity) because of the recipient’s faith in the deceit of it all – due to the belief of the recipients. Not due to reality beyond the reality of bluff and what fear can do. So, I conceptualized that the concept of negative spiritual energy transmissions via a voodoo doctor was similar to your expressed concept of negative energy transmissions by a faulty motivated Christian praying – or a neurotic Christian praying. I think it’s the same erroneous belief. Seems analogous to me.

The Spirit is a spirit of freedom. Not inhibition, not fear. The Spirit is a spirit of Truth. Not deceit, not lies.

I don’t like to see inhibitions regarding intercessory praying for others. Sticks in my craw.

Are there demons and evil spirits? Yes. Scripture is clear in those regards. Jesus healed many via deliverances -- the apostles as well. Fear can cripple. Fear can stress. Stress can cause sickness. But the demons are liars and deceivers. Christians are not to fear them – yes, respect the reality of the evil they can effect through others who open themselves to the occult, but not abandon truth in God’s love and protection; not abandon truth for deceit, or abandon freedom for fear -- and never open oneself to the seduction and deceit of evil by involvement in the occult..

One might ask: Was not the devil able to shake the bed of St. John Vianney and set it on fire; and to toy similarly with Padre Pio and other saints? Yes. God permitted those exceptional happenstances to occur with exceptional saints for whom He gave extraordinary graces – and NEVER let them be tested beyond the graces He was commensurately giving them. We are never tested beyond our strength scripture tells us. Vianney, after the devil set his bed on fire just rolled over and told the devil he was boring. Vianney had no fear. He had the freedom of a well-formed son of God. He put his faith in Psalm 91.

But Shasha, I will try to read that book of Derek Prince and see if I can find the article on discerning energy healing. Energy healing I think is off-topic though.

Like Derek Prince book’s title: Blessing or Curse: You can choose. A Christian chooses Psalm 91 to put faith in.

Again, I am just a man on the street; not a theologian, not clergy in any man’s church.


Pop-pop

Shasha,

Let me put it to you in a different way and more succintly.

Do you really think that everytime a self-led, not God-led Christian or a neurotic person, or whatever, prays for you that you are susceptible to being damaged by their prayers? Do you really believe That. Do you believe our heavenly Father our good God would leave us so vulnerable?

Because that's what you've said.

Do you really believe then that we are unprotected from the misplaced or malpracticed prayers of others? That Psalm 91 does not apply?

Because that's in essence what you've said.

Methinks -- not worthy of you. Silly.

Pop-pop

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pop-pop,

Good morning, Pop-pop,

Thanks for the compliment that some of my thoughts
on this subject are "not worthy of me."
(belly laugh)

Seriously, I do appreciate your reiterating the focus of your concern.
Won't want to be flying in 100 directions and dilute the essence of what the Father wants us to learn from this discussion.

I do want to respond thoughtfully to your concerns. I do see the danger
I've stepped into in being too facile with my comments about energy transmission through innocent prayer. I do see that satan would love to engender fear and inhibit intercessory prayer. That raised awareness alone is worth tons to me! Thank you for that Pop-pop.

At the same time, I think you're coming from a different world view on some things.

I'd like to think/pray about how to respond to some of the specific questions / issues you've posed above and get back with you soon.

For starters, I'm inclined to start with MacNutt since you evidently respect him. And put to rest the more tertiary issues of whether Christians can be oppressed/harassed by evil spirits and the reality of curses (even upon Christians).

But I hear the main issue as: are there any dangers involved in "misplaced and malpractice" thoughts/prayers. Is that right?

with love,
and wishing you all God's peace,
Shasha

Shasha,

Yes, I think you have the main issue correct: "Can one's prayers if 'soulish and not led by the Spirit but by imperfect motivations of their 'self' or 'flesh' cause injury to the intended recipients of their prayers or to themselves?" You have stated YES.

If you grant me that the majority of people's prayers are probably not Spirit-led but are imperfect and 'soulish' to some degree or in the main, then our Popes and Bishops who are the recipients of the prayers of millions are receiving quite a lot of negative energy transmission. Eh?

Not to mention handsome Mel Gibson!

The other issues we can also discuss and you can ease me into the emerging church.

Pop-pop

p.s. Shasha what I meant by 'not worthy of you' was simply what you meant when you wrote: "I've stepped into in being too facile with my comments about energy transmission" It was not a put-down, mon amie.

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:
Shasha,

If you grant me that the majority of people's prayers are probably not Spirit-led but are imperfect and 'soulish' to some degree or in the main, then our Popes and Bishops who are the recipients of the prayers of millions are receiving quite a lot of negative energy transmission. Eh?
....

What do you call it when somebody changes your point around in such a way as to make it easy to discredit?

...what fallacy is that?

Shasha,

I don't know..................SWITCHEROO?

LOL! Belly laugh.

And love,
Pop-pop

quote:

recipients of the prayers of millions are receiving quite a lot of negative energy transmission

it is my experience, it seems that all that negative energy is absorbed by the Holy Spirit who resides within us...do we feel it? yep! as we share in His Divine Nature..feeling it within the human body/ consciousness is simply a byproduct of being human .. even Jesus groaned when he took on others stuff.

i have always seen it as bearing the burden with / in Christ.. no biggie just part of intercessory prayer...

an important distinction is the distinction between the inner Divine Life of God Himself, to which we have no access as it is beyond us, and the Uncreated Energies of God that emanate from the Holy Trinity and in which we most certainly do have access, as we participate in the Life in Christ when we pray.

conceptually i don't think we will ever understand this mystery and how it works.. does it matter? for me.. no.

if one is coming from His heart in service to others and calls upon the Lord.. i see no real problem...

simplistic, maybe.. but then one does not have a degree to figure out prayer( how to pray. .. simply one is willing and God steps in.. the whole thing about what we feel or not is not of importance. It is not even particularly interesting after a number of years in His service.

i think all of us have a bit of that soulish thing going as we pray for others . We are so human and imperfect.. thank Gods the Holy Spirit uses us anyway!

Also, dealing with demonic attacks when praying is par for the course..is it pleasant? no. Is it because we are attempting to assert our will on another or we are in cahoots with them .. oh boy they would LOVE to have you think that...so you will be discouraged and quit praying...

A very simple way of dealing with all this soulish stuff is the recognition that we as human beings who pray for others ALL have this aspect within us. that is the potential to want to run the show. pride is ALWAYS a potential with us human being. those who know it.. for me , the best thing to do is.. humbly ask God for His light and protection and to remove the little i from the prayer... then whatever transpires, radical trust in God.. yes, energy does leave one.. that is the way it is......but the more comes to understand it is not 'me'.

if i worried every time i prayed about being in a place of soulishness OR NOT soulishness when i prayed for others i would be so discouraged i wouldn't get off the ground to pray! there was a time years ago i struggled with that.. the priest called it over scrupulosity. he told me to.. relax.. i wasn't in charge LOL!

love to all. christine

There's no boogeyman?

quote:

There's no boogeyman?

Ariel.. there is.. but YOU move over and let the Holy Spirit deal with it

Whew, Christine...I will.

While I was being silly because Pop-pop said there was no boogeyman, I do--at 44 years old--on rare ocassions feel afraid of the dark when I'm outside here in the county...and I sing to myself some Christian song.

And now back to the topic...

quote:

on rare ocassions feel afraid of the dark when I'm outside here in the county...and I sing to myself some Christian song.

Ariel.. when i said YOU move over. i did not mean anyone literally.. as for singing those tunes in the dark..... me too

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:

However, Christians are covenanted and under God’s protection and if they don’t open themselves to the occult, they need have no fear relative to spells and curses. The demonic has no power in that regard. And we are to put faith in that. Psalm 91, as one scriptural example, addresses God’s providential care and protection. We should not put faith in any deceit of the devil.

Pop-pop, what are you talking about when you say "open themselves to the occult" ? Are you talking about "worshipping demons" or "casting spells" or some kind of specific action? I've seen you and several other people talk about "the occult" in very vague terms and I'm not sure what it is you're referring to.


Paul

quote:

Originally posted by faustina:

quote:

on rare ocassions feel afraid of the dark when I'm outside here in the county...and I sing to myself some Christian song.

Ariel.. when i said YOU move over. i did not mean anyone literally.. as for singing those tunes in the dark..... me too

Christine--I took you to be saying...move over and let the Holy Spirit deal with whatever I'm afraid of, whether it's a real spiritual or physical entity, or even just my overly graphic imagination (the latter being a particle problem for me, and why I never watch horror movies).

quote:

the latter being a particle problem for me, and why I never watch horror movies).

i think that's wise Ariel.. those kind of films carry energy that is far from godly... i don't watch them either. there are better ways to have excitement in ones life

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:
Shasha,

Let me put it to you in a different way and more succintly.

Do you really think that everytime a self-led, not God-led Christian or a neurotic person, or whatever, prays for you that you are susceptible to being damaged by their prayers? Do you really believe That. Do you believe our heavenly Father our good God would leave us so vulnerable?

Because that's what you've said.

Do you really believe then that we are unprotected from the misplaced or malpracticed prayers of others? That Psalm 91 does not apply?

Because that's in essence what you've said.

Methinks -- not worthy of you. Silly.

Pop-pop

If you remember, Shasha's statement about Kristi's energy affecting her friend began from the point of a first-hand experience. That is, Kristi posted that her praying for someone led to a transmission of energy, the results of which she felt negatively impacted her. From this point, someone responding to that statement can either a: discredit the related first-hand experience (i.e. "That's not what really happened, you've misinterpreted your experience") or b: take it at face value and reply based on that premise.

The question of how far God's protection extends to his children is I think broader than whether or not the thoughts, intentions, and "soulish" prayers and/or voodoo magic can have an effect on us. If we believe that ideas like energy, spirits, emotions, etc, are in fact real "things," and we believe that we as humans have aspects of ourselves which are emotional, energetic, spiritual, etc, then we should be asking ourselves, can another human being, who has under his/her realm of influence his own energy and his own spirit, affect our energy and emotions and spirit in some way? By way of analogy, I think we all agree that we can affect one another physically in a negative manner if we so choose, according to the laws of the physical world (i.e. we must be in a certain proximity, we must apply certain force, etc) then I don't see why we should believe that we can't affect one another energetically and spiritually if we so choose.

The question you seem to be asking is "Doesn't God protect us from such things?" and the real answer, I think, is "sometimes." Sometimes God protects us from energetic and spiritual "attacks," just as he sometimes by way of providence keeps us physically safe from harm. But in every day life, I think it's safe to say that we are mostly protected from spiritual and energetic damage by our energetic and spiritual health and cautious living, just as we are protected from physical danger primarily by maintaining a healthy and safe lifestyle. We can also say that those who are in most danger of being harmed energetically, etc, are those who are weak in those areas whether it be emotional damage, spiritual immaturity, or whatever, that causes that person to be vulnerable. Those who are most "fit" are going to be the most safe from various kinds of harm, and it's a matter of degrees, rather than of black and white.

The question of whether other people’s prayers unintentionally (or “voodoo” intentionally) cause pain for people is not black and white either, as we have to ask ourselves by what means we are affected energetically by someone else. Just as in order to physically affect someone, we have to apply physical force under certain conditions (i.e. have to be physically near them), in order to energetically affect someone we must apply our own energy to them somehow. The way we do this is with our attention; as most people here who are energetically “aware” can attest to, energy follow attention. The more focused our attention, the more intense the flow of energy. As can most likely also be attested to, energy is “colored” by our emotions and our intent. If we focus intensely on another person while holding a specific intent and its associated “feeling” in mind, our own energy (being not limited by physical space) can and does impact that person. There are variables and limits to how strong of an impact this exercise will have, but it does have an impact. The most important variable is how “accepting” or “vulnerable” the object of our focus is to certain intents – if they have asked you for healing and you’re transmitting to them “love and healing” then it will likely help. On the other side of it, if they’re a basket case and are unconsciously self-destructive, a transmission of negative intent will likely be unconsciously received and integrated.
I’ve got more to say, but I’ll wait until you or someone else replies.

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by myfutureself:
...
The question you seem to be asking is "Doesn't God protect us from such things?" and the real answer, I think, is "sometimes." Sometimes God protects us from energetic and spiritual "attacks," just as he sometimes by way of providence keeps us physically safe from harm. But in every day life, I think it's safe to say that we are mostly protected from spiritual and energetic damage by our energetic and spiritual health and cautious living, just as we are protected from physical danger primarily by maintaining a healthy and safe lifestyle. We can also say that those who are in most danger of being harmed energetically, etc, are those who are weak in those areas whether it be emotional damage, spiritual immaturity, or whatever, that causes that person to be vulnerable. Those who are most "fit" are going to be the most safe from various kinds of harm, and it's a matter of degrees, rather than of black and white.
...
as most people here who are energetically “aware” can attest to, energy follow attention. The more focused our attention, the more intense the flow of energy. As can most likely also be attested to, energy is “colored” by our emotions and our intent. If we focus intensely on another person while holding a specific intent and its associated “feeling” in mind, our own energy (being not limited by physical space) can and does impact that person. There are variables and limits to how strong of an impact this exercise will have, but it does have an impact. The most important variable is how “accepting” or “vulnerable” the object of our focus is to certain intents...
....

Well said, Paul. I see we're on the same-ish page. Stuff that's hard to prove but easy to 'see' if you've been around this territory.

What a great discussion! I'm just catching up on my reading, here -- another "ridiculously busy time" coming to an end, soon. At the end of such days, there isn't much energy for reading, reflecting and responding.

quote:

I do not believe one can negatively affect someone by praying for them even though a Christian’s motivations are not perfect or stem from their ‘false self’ or ‘flesh’ to some degree. If a Christian’s intentionality is for good and not evil then I do not believe there is justification for saying harm can be done to another or to oneself. Isn’t the good of another what intercessory prayer is all about? By its very nature its intentionality is toward good not evil. And of course ‘God’s will be done’ determines what’s done (i.e. the outcome). To my way of thinking (a thinking based on a goodly amount of reading and hearing –albeit not Derek Prince) intercession is ‘asking’, asking God, and is not ‘transmitting’ energies to others (negative or positive).

It’s the Spirit in me (a Spirit who makes all things work for good) -- and yes maybe a lot or all of me (fleshly me) -- who is asking / interceding to the Father. But to say that as a Christian (one in whom the Spirit dwells as a consequence of Baptism) I can somehow transmit energy leaf- to-leaf or branch-to-leaf (without the Spirit being involved), that is, not via the sap that flows through the vine, is incorrect. The Spirit is always with us – even when we sin. One’s intentionality is always known to God. And the prayer recipient’s well being is always desired by our good God – whether the recipient is yet a Christian or not, is in the vine or not, and whether or not the intended recipient is a terrible sinner. God’s desire is always for the good and always for the precluding of evil.
The influence of imperfect motivations (soulish-ness) is not a factor since God makes all things work for good.

I think that's very well-said, Pop, and I was glad to see it affirmed by Shasha and others. It's good when people feel free to ask God for anything, and so long as they are directing their attention to God in doing so, I don't think any harm can come from it. Most of us don't have a charism of intercessory prayer, and so our intentions are probably more "soulish" or even "egoish" than an uttering of burdens placed on our hearts by the Spirit. I don't know of anything in Scripture or the writings of Saints and mystics to discourage such prayers. I guess if one were asking God to harm another, that would be different, but even then, if one's attention is directed to God, I doubt much harm would come of it as God's presence would intersect with this intent and soften it somewhat (Christine has made a similar point). In the end, if God doesn't want to answer our prayers, God simply ignores them or answers them another way, perhaps later.

Re. "white magic," I'm hearing that applied to energy work and the like, which is a whole other matter. As the distinction seems to be between such therapies and the exercising of healing charisms, it seems to me a tricky thing, for, at best, such therapies would be undertaken in the "natural order," which is suffused both positive and negative energies/thoughts/intentions. But I'm not exactly sure what "white magic" means, here. Certainly, a sincere compliment or affirmation can have a profound and positive effect on another, just as criticism can have the opposite effect. We do exercise a considerable amount of influence on one another, a "binding and loosing," and so need to be careful about what we put out there into the universe.

Christine,

You have written:
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If I worried every time I prayed about being in a place of soulishness OR NOT soulishness when I prayed for others I would be so discouraged I wouldn't get off the ground to pray! There was a time years ago I struggled with that. The priest called it over scrupulosity. He told me to.. relax.. I wasn't in charge LOL!

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What you have written there is precisely my concern and the focus of why I wanted to bring all this up – to preclude inhibitions to pray. And to discuss the concept of energy-transference as applicable to intercessory prayer.

Ariel,

When you go out at night put on the whole armor of God (as in Ephesians) to deal with the supernatural, and take Sonnyboy to deal with the natural. If you haven’t read about Grigio and Don Bosco (an RC story, so you mightn’t have) you might enjoy reading about him. God works in wonderful ways, should true need ever arise!

Paul,

You have written:
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Pop-pop, what are you talking about when you say "open themselves to the occult"? Are you talking about "worshipping demons" or "casting spells" or some kind of specific action? I've seen you and several other people talk about "the occult" in very vague terms and I'm not sure what it is you're referring to.

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OK. How does one open oneself to the occult – and what am I talking about? What are the specific actions involved? In general regards, one opens oneself to the occult in ways similar to how one opens oneself to other sins: to drug addiction, and addiction to pornography, etc. That is, by curiosity and sampling (thought and acting on thought). No drug addict ever became an addict without coming out of those starting blocks. (Except in the movie, The French Connection, of course).

Specifically, occultwise: one opens themselves to the occult by being curious about and in turn sampling, or investigating -- Ouija boards, 8-ball, psychic readings (fortune telling, palm reading, tarot card readings, tea leaves, etc) horoscopes, astrological interpretations, participation in séances, reading books and subsequently experimenting with satanism, witchcraft & wicca, the casting spells and curses, the evil eye, the horns, voodoo, santeria, black magic, the use of amulets, necromancy, and seeking the assistance of clairvoyants, spirit guides and gurus and subsequently becoming their disciples. I may have left a number out, but that listing has enough substance that you should have a good understanding of what I mean.

In general the issue is this: we are NOT to pursue eating of the tree of knowledge (yes! the prohibition given to Adam & Eve). God says (very First Commandment): I am the LORD, your God! Thou shalt NOT have false Gods before Me! It is an insult, an abomination to the LORD (who is our beginning and our end, our well being and redemption, our providence etc.) to go around Him, to go ahead of Him, to seek any other sources of knowledge or power. What we need He will provide or has already provided. And He has provided us with angelic protection as well. We each have a guardian angel.
And there is no need to pursue spiritual wisdom knowledge or power outside of the vine. Discontent with God’s providential care is an insult to Him. He has covenanted Himself to us (as baptized Christians) and we are under His care. We are within His sheepfold. There is no stealing of us out of His hand. The occult (non-holy spiritual entities) has no power over us, given we by our own free will do not open ourselves to the occult and sin via activity in occult regards. If we leave the sheepfold via our free willed choice, then we are susceptible to the consequences that might accrue and some are more serious than others. (Heroin is initially more seductive than marijuana). The more time one spends involved with the occult, the more deeply we can be captured and the harder is the journey back. Evil has glamour. Ultimately one can become fully possessed.

Deuteronomy 18:10-14 is one scriptural passage that lists a number of what I have presented as occult practices. There are others.

Sirach 3:20 & 21 provides great advice: For those without Catholic Bibles or Christian Bibles without the Deutero-canonical books, here is what is written: “What is too sublime for you, seek not, into things beyond your strength search not. What is committed to you attend to; for what is hidden is not your concern”
Sirach 1:24 tells us that: “loyal humility is His delight.”

Hope that answers your question, Paul.

Pop-pop

Pop-pop,

Inhibiting intercessory prayer sticks in your craw...OK, good to stick up for what you believe in, but you’re over-reacting, methinks. And you’ve slipped into “straw man fallacy” type reactions.

The straw man fallacy is when someone (Pop-pop) takes a person's (Shasha’s) actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position to discredit it.

So, admittedly I wasn’t clear, and too facile, when I said:

“Our thoughts and especially our soulish prayers are infused with energy, just ordinary spiritual energy. That energy is easily sent to another in the form of prayer. I don’t think that is a good thing. If you want to do ‘white magic,‘ that’s it, and it will work."

But you changed it to:
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Do you really think that everytime a self-led, not God-led Christian or a neurotic person, or whatever, prays for you that you are susceptible to being damaged by their prayers?
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Every time, Pops?

And you further jump to this conclusion and hyperbole:

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If you grant me that the majority of people's prayers are probably not Spirit-led but are imperfect and 'soulish' to some degree or in the main, then our Popes and Bishops who are the recipients of the prayers of millions are receiving quite a lot of negative energy transmission. Eh?

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Gimme a break. The Church ordains certain prayers--the Divine Office and prayers at Mass, etc. I’m called to pray those prayers along with millions of others. What a tremendous gift to humanity. This is a totally different kind of praying than what I was referring to.

Do you really think that I believe our imperfect prayers will harm the Pope and Bishops?
Do you really believe That?! Because that’s what you’re implying that I'm saying.

Anyway, enough said on the straw man argument...

My initial caution about soulish praying was in a particular context. Thank you Paul for redirecting us to that point and for your experience/ input that our focussed thoughts do have an impact on others.

As Paul described in his post, I too am talking about a phenomena of a person, for instance, sitting around at home fixated on a particular person over days, maybe months or years, asking God for something that is not their business. To control or manipulate another in some way. This fixation of mental energy seemingly for ‘good’ (what when can roughly call white magic, though not intentional) can produce the wished-for / prayer-for result but may or may not harm us and others.

Let’s consider these three different real-world examples that illustrate the problem of thoughts/intentions/energy affecting another.

1) A close friend of mine shared that she felt compelled to pray for the salvation of a particular man whom she’d known years ago. She said she did this intensely for a few days and then suddenly ran into him after years of being apart. A few months later, she prayed again and ran into him in another random location. A third time this happened and she thought maybe her prayers were ‘working.’ A check in her spirit moved her to share this with her spiritual director. He put his head down momentarily, looked up at her and said, “Salvation will not come to this man through you. You need to stop praying for him.” Her well-meaning prayers were soulish, and maybe ego-ish too? Her thoughts pulling him into her life. Her spiritual director discerned that her prayers were not God's Will, though she was praying to God and her prayers where certainly well-intentioned.

2) An excerpt from Sears paper I posted above:

"Reiki masters and other practitioners find they can effect healing across space and time. So also, in the Spirit we Christians can bring one another to Jesus for healing in prayer from a distance. We begin with ourselves, asking God to heal us so that we can be purified channels of healing for others. This healing transcends space and time. That prayer works at a distance is illustrated by a Columbia University experiment of praying for women in Australia to get pregnant (without their knowing it!). 50% got pregnant as opposed to 26% of the control group. Columbia University expected no effect! (see N.Y.Times, “Magazine”)."

Say what? Lots of problems with this. What power worked to get these results? (I certainly wouldn't want a group of people praying over my reproductive organs)

3) From Derek Prince’s book Blessings or Curse, chapter title “Soulish Prayer”:

Pastor Jones of Gospel Church discovers his wife is having an affair with Brother Williams, the music minister. He divorces his wife and dismisses Brother Williams.
Brother Williams, however, refuses to admit to the charge of adultery. He complains of “injustice,” wins over half the congregation to his side, and starts to build a new church. There follows a lengthy dispute between the two groups concerning the division of the building fund. A year later Pastor Jones marries again. Brother Williams and his group charge that it is unscriptural for a divorced minister to remarry. They start a special prayer meeting to call down “judgment” upon him. In the next two years Pastor Jones’ new wife twice becomes pregnant, but each time her pregnancy ends in miscarriage. The gynecologist can find no medical reason for these miscarriages. Brother Williams and his group hail this as the answer to their prayers and God’s vindication of their righteous cause .

With their first conclusion I would agree. Their prayers were responsible for the two miscarriages. But what was the power that worked through those prayers? ...The only credible diagnosis that remains is that of James 3:15. The power working through such prayers is earthly, soulish, demonic.”

By this last sentence, I don't know if he means the power was either/or earthly, soulish, demonic, or if he's lumping them all in the same category. The latter is what most Christians assume. If it's not from God, its a demonic power.

Prince give other examples like this and concludes that prayers do have POWER, not from God, but nonetheless by Christians praying to God .

Sure, God works out "all things to the good," but still lets us royally mess up on the way. Discernment. Not scrupulosity. Not to inhibit intercessory prayer, but to control the supernatural power of our thoughts.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shasha,

White Magic

True "white magic" is based on love and the sharing of positive energy. And it is only magic if you can not see/feel energy. If you can see/feel energy, then it is not magic, it is the manipulation of energy. Everything is made up of energy and that energy can be manipulated by the human mind.

The source of true white magic is "love". The source of true black magic is "fear". And both are only magic if you can not see/feel energy.

The source of kundalini magic is "sex energy" and Kundalini magic is a whole nether breed of cat than white and black magic. And because sex energy can cause one to become unstable, it is a difficult energy to harness.

About prayers: If your prayers include the "will of the Father and the name of the Son", then they have nothing to do with your energy. What you make is a request (hopefully from your heart )and what happens is what happens.

love,

tuck