Thanks for those replies directed at my questions. I feel a little stupid since I still feel I'm missing something...perhaps I'm just not in a place to hear the clear answers being given me.

I just feel confused is all - would the bible consider all eastern healers (non-Christians I mean)who manipulate energy via acupuncture, channeling and the like to be in fact practicing sorcery. I mean, they consider what they are doing to be well within the limits of human ability...there is no "magic" in it for them?

quote:

Originally posted by Jacques:
Thanks for those replies directed at my questions. I feel a little stupid since I still feel I'm missing something...perhaps I'm just not in a place to hear the clear answers being given me.

I just feel confused is all - would the bible consider all eastern healers (non-Christians I mean)who manipulate energy via acupuncture, channeling and the like to be in fact practicing sorcery. I mean, they consider what they are doing to be well within the limits of human ability...there is no "magic" in it for them?

Jacques,

It may be that you're still confused because there's no clear cut answer, and it depends on what authority you go to for an interpretation. The Catholic Church, for instance, believes the practice of Reiki to be founded on principles that are neither scientifically proven nor part of the Christian faith, and so calls it "superstitious" and therefore is against it. In this case, it would seem, that if a Christian is objectively basing his belief in energy and its directed use on personal experience, then it is "okay" and would be grouped with things like exercise, a healthy diet, or other natural practices. For some Catholics, this may present a problem, because it relies on an understanding and a subsystem of beliefs that differs from the official position of the Church. But on the other hand, it doesn't seem reasonable to deny what you're seeing "with your own eyes," so to speak, simply because the Church hasn't issued a statement that what you're seeing does indeed exist.

Unfortunately for those who draw a sense of security from the idea that their beliefs are shared with the entire community of living Catholics, this does inject a degree of spiritual danger or risk in the sense that they are now in "uncharted" territories - or at least, the charts that are available have not been approved as valid, so it remains possible that they may become lost in the journey. However, to me this seems to be a failing on the part of the Church, in its inability to recognize something that is self-evident to many of its members, rather than a failing of its members to adhere to Church teaching.

To answer your question about whether the Bible considers all eastern healers (i.e. acupuncture) to be practicing sorcery.. I don't think the Bible considers anyone to be practicing sorcery, but rather whoever is interpreting the Bible may do so. I'm sure that there are some people who, when reading the Bible, would make that interpretation. There are many who wouldn't. There are also people who interpret the Bible and say that it's a sin to make use of modern medicine.

If we're going to engage in interpreting scripture for ourselves, rather than strictly adhering to an established doctrine on it, then we have to pray on it and involve the Spirit in our thinking, and judge the belief by its fruit. For instance, if we go to an acupuncturist, does it affect our relationship with Christ? If it does, is it in a good way? Or does it only affect our relationship with ourselves, akin to going to therapy? Or can we truly change our relationship with ourselves in a deep and meaningful way without that change also affecting our relationship with Christ? We have to ask ourselves these questions and similar ones, and the answers will dictate to us whether what we are doing is right or wrong. And if we prayerfully undertake this process with faith and a sincere desire to do what God wants us to do, I think that if we make a misstep (which we probably will), it's ok, and we'll be gently corrected and brought back onto the path that God has set out for us.

Paul

Very nicely stated, Paul. Thank you.

Re. something like Reiki, if one reads the bishops' objections to it (we've posted links to it in a separate discussion on this topic), it's because Reiki practitioners seem to be referencing something they call "universal energy," and the bishops had a problem with this. They did not address the possibility of using Reiki in the context of praying for guidance from the Holy Spirit, however. Several Christian Reiki practitioners that I know have stated that this is what they do and they had no intention of stopping, as it seemed to be akin to "laying on of hands," though informed by some Reiki principles. It can be the same with other practices as well -- e.g., different yogas, zen, martial arts, massage therapies, etc. We do need to know what we're doing, and why, and pay attention to the fruit of the practice.

Terms like "occult" and "sorcery" have lots of different meanings. There are Catholic discussion boards that would consider even Jung's psychology to be occultic, and that's ridiculous, imo. Fwiw, here are the definitions of sorcery and occult from the carm.org web site. I think they're pretty good, on the whole, until one starts picking nits with them.

Sorcery is the practice of using incantations and/or spells to control the spiritual realm in order to gain power and manipulate people and things. Sorcery was forbidden in Israel (Deut. 18:10) and was punishable by death (Exodus 22:8). It was practiced in Egypt (Exodus 7:11), Assyria (Nahm. 3:4), and Babylonia (Dan. 2:2). It is listed as one of the sins in Gal. 5:20.

Occult means "hidden". It covers practices that are not approved of by God e.g., astrology (Isaiah 47:13), casting spells (Deut. 18:11), consulting with spirits (Deut. 18:11), magic (Gen. 41:8), sorcery (Exodus. 22:18), witchcraft (Deut. 18:10), and spiritism (Deut. 18:11). Occult practices such as Ouija boards, tarot cards, Wicca, astrology charts, contacting the dead, séances, etc. are to be avoided by the Christian and Jews alike.

It seems a common caution, here, is abdication of responsibility for one's decisions in favor of some external influence, which opens the door to delusions of all kinds. Another would be the attempt to "control" other people and circumstances directly without exerting oneself in space and time, which is the natural context for human action.

Shasha:

Your thought:
“well-intended praying to our God from and for Christians can, at times, be harmful”.

Your summary of Derek Prince’s thought:
“He goes on to share that well-intentioned prayer laced with our impure motives can have negative spiritual effects on the recipient”.

Your quote of Derek Prince:
“The power of soulish prayer is both real and dangerous.”

Dear Readers, dear Shasha,

Can any of you bring to the table of discussion anything from scripture (and from Tradition if you are an RC) that speaks to dangers associated with prayer, or cautions with respect to praying, anything wherein Christian prayer can harm the recipient, and anything wherein Christian prayer can harm the praying person – anything that supports the above? It would be beneficial to this discussion if you can.

Scripture warns us (Gal 1: 8&9) about receiving a Gospel not in accord with the one we have received. One can be ‘not in accord’ by adding to revelation -- not only by changing or contradicting or discounting. I think the default is to reject rather than to accept new slants on spiritual truths.

What has God told us concerning potential harm from prayer? Certainly self-knowledge and purification of our motives is always a good goal to pursue, (Thy will not my will be done, yes) but the hazard of harm from impure motives is a different issue. There’s a difference between our prayers *not being answered* because they are not ‘in the Lord’ versus our prayers *causing harm* if they are not ‘in the Lord’.

I don’t think one should unwittingly accept a false slant however well-intentioned. Revelation is sacred.

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On another note, but perhaps related, you post:

“My son was sharing about the character in a movie he watched. He said, "And this guy has godly powers! He can make reality happen just by thinking something!" I told him those powers are not godly, but supernatural. I further shared that God does not want us to use those kinds of powers because he wants us to turn to Him for all of our needs”.

Humans do not have supernatural powers. Evil and angelic spirits have supernatural powers. Humans have human powers of which the saints say free will is our highest.

Evil spirits can manifest their supernatural powers through humans – though somehow the human person must have given assent of their free will. Possession can occur.

Certainly, we here at SP are endeavoring to understand the nature of and limits of human power and abilities – the paranormal and the untapped power / capabilities of the human brain. These are powers that might be attributed to humans and which we strive to understand, but they would be never attributable to foreign entities, spirit guides, goddesses etc (unless we by consent of our wills allowed it). .

Somehow, I think that your understanding of human powers and supernatural powers is intertwined in what you’ve said to your son and what you believe regarding prayer and energy transfer.

These concepts need theological consideration.

Pre-moderns would have told their movie-watching sons such things (supernatural powers – in your example making things happen by just thinking something) that one sees in the movies are make-believe and NOT real. Whereas, you have said that they ARE real but God does not want us to use them. Certainly there has been a shift in conceptualizing reality. At issue is whether that shift is truth.

Kind of New Agey -- we CAN be like God – but shouldn’t. We have or can have supernatural power (just via our ability to think something) but shouldn’t use our power.

But this denies the reality that we are creatures. Without God we can do nothing.

Jesus said: “The Son can only do what He sees the Father doing” – not that the Son can do what He thinks the Father might say yes to. Not that He just has to use the power of His mind -- with good intention of course (like for the purposes of love). Are we to expect greater power than the Son has? It’s enticing to want to change stones into bread (– for the Lord we say).

Certainly there has been a shift in conceptualizing reality. You are a witness to that shift.

Ultimately though, reality is what Jesus has revealed to us.

Pop-pop

p.s. Paul, I enjoyed your recent post, too.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pop-pop,

Hi Pop-pop,

By "supernatural" powers, I mean of the human spirit, beyond those explicable by the current scientific paradigm. I don't think (hope not) anybody would misunderstand me to be saying that we are anything more than creatures (redeemed).

In terms of adding "any new slants" on revealed truth, I sure don't want to risk doing that. I know what St. Paul says about good Christ-followers who do that--they'll come out of it alive, but with nth-degree burns on their body!

Other than what I've shared so far (which doesn't include personal stuff), I don't have any further support for those claims. So, that's all for now...Will get back with you if something else seems relevant.

God's peace,
Shasha

Thanks Paul and Phil, I'm sure as I continue to wrestle with this stuff your words will definitely stick out and help bring further contextualization to the issue.

Much Love in the Lord Jesus

Jacques

Shasha,

Powers of the human spirit (the hippie-dippie paranormal things) I think could be exercised under the same aspects of moral theology that applies to the non hippie-dippie. If thye are God-given even though atypical, why wouldn't they be suited to man's use in the same moral regards as normal gifts and talents?

Pop-pop

That's a good question, Pop-pop. I don't think humans are morally mature enough to discern right use of spiritual powers, judging by our behavior in the 'normal' realm of reality.

Also, my concern would be that in the unseen realm of human spiritual powers, it is hard to know if/when those powers overlap with demonic ones. Humans are just too easily deluded. I've heard some stories of people who start off thinking they're operating within the realm of their own natural, intuitive giftings but get sucked into relating to dark spiritual entities which devolves into sin.

Miora Noonan, who wrote Ransomed From Darkness, might be a good example of this. She was a natural clairvoyant who was sure she was doing a great service to mankind in her long career as a 'minister' in some new agey church. If I recall correctly, she shares that she became tormented by her head full of visions of other people's stuff. This was healed upon her return to the Catholic Church.

Is there some Christ-ordained use of our human spiritual powers? I've heard people argue yes, as in the Christian Reiki therapists Phil shared about.

Personally, I've never seen in practice this working out well for people who become more involved in using spiritual powers, especially as they influence other people.

And from the pov of talking to a 12 year old, I'd prefer to teach the general warning that God does not want us to use spiritual powers, but to turn to Him in prayer.

Shasha,

You are probably right. Certainly you have more knowledge and experienc than I in this area.


FWIW, I think a terminology change can bring a freeing and healthy perspective to our conceptualizing.

Thinking and speaking using the terminology of possessing a ‘unique ability’ rather than ‘supernatural power’ or ‘supernatural human power’ somehow (in my mind anyway) makes for better conceptualizing. There is more humility and truth and less tendency to being inhibited or puffed up – just by such a terminology shift.

An ‘ability, ’somehow connotes a gift or talent given one. Whereas ‘power’ tends to connote a ‘self’ focus that causes one to be inhibited if one doesn’t want to betray the Lord, or causes one to be susceptible (in their thinking) to pride and being puffed up.

Having a gift or talent implies a giver of the gift exists, whereas having a ‘power’ somehow does not as clearly imply a giver (Creator). IMO.

If one recognizes that their atypical (paranormal) talent is a gift, then it is easier to feel free to accept, to use, and to multiply that ability/talent/gift. It is freeing. One can more easily accept in humility and gratitude what they have.

If one sees things in terms of power – I think the devil can get more of a foothold into distorting things and masking what is indeed perhaps a unique ability given to be freely used in the same regards and under the same moral norms as the typical gifts that are distributed across mankind – as God intends.

Anyway. I yield to your experience.

Not having anything in the atypical to be concerned with all this is a non-issue for me personally. If one does then they might profit by reading and rereading The Ascent of Mt. Carmel.

Pop-pop

Pop-pop

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:
...
Pop-pop

Pop-pop

I see you've cloned yourelf here; is that your special gift?

Lol. Of course!

It's a prerequisite for Bilocation 102.

Naturally, one must pay their matriculation fees for it to count towards a degree however.

Pop-pop wrote: If one sees things in terms of power – I think the devil can get more of a foothold into distorting things and masking what is indeed perhaps a unique ability given to be freely used in the same regards and under the same moral norms as the typical gifts that are distributed across mankind – as God intends.

Yes indeed!

Years ago, I read a book entitled Occult Phenomena by a Fr. Weisinger. It's out of print now, but it was very helpful to me in that he used the anthropology of St. Thomas Aquinas to affirm the reality of paranormal experience as within the realm of human activity. He noted that the human soul is a spiritual substance, though not as "strong" in potency as that of angels, but a spirit nonetheless. Most of the powers of the soul are taken up in dealing with the activities of the body, which, he notes, is the natural context in which the soul develops its knowledge and powers. Iow, the body is for the soul, and the soul for the body, to use an old aphorism. Nevertheless, it seems that in some people, and through the use of certain ascetical exercises, one can awake to what he called the "partly-body-free soul," or powers of the human spirit that are not taken up in the activities of the body. Such powers, he noted, would be akin to those of angels, and could explain paranormal powers like telepathy, clairvoyance, and psychokinesis. Made sense to me, and still does. Of course, he readily acknowledged that we don't have a very good command of these powers, and that the information we derive from using them might not be trustworthy. He didn't seem too concerned about the intrusion of evil spirits, but he did acknowledge that this was a possibility to be aware of, but not an inevitability. One would need to use the same criteria for discerning evil and/or diabolical possession that the Church has been employing for centuries. Also, one should use the same moral principles for determining the use of the powers as one uses for ordinary human activity.

Weisinger's work was mentioned in Time magazine sometime back.
- see http://www.time.com/time/magaz...171,809139-1,00.html

I am speaking from experience where magic is concerned whether it be white or black. Both are taking the law and power into their own hands and minds to bring about their will.

Hope this is a help
Margaret (Scotland)

Found some helpful information on magic a while ago. It seems to me that traditional magical texts direct practitioners to evoke forces from the spirit world to bring about effects in the physical world.

I the texts that I read the powers evoked were not held to be within the scope of normal human potency, but could only be affected through the powers of angels, demons and spiritual "masters".

Today magic is sometimes equated with the use of chi or other subtle energies, but this seems to be a modern syncretic philosophy and not the traditional use of the word.