quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
...
I think it is quite symptomatic that anti-Christian forces in the Western culture taken over words like "choice", "liberty", "tolerance", "openness", "progress", "social sensitivity", "compassion", "awareness" (I could go on with that...), changed or twisted their meaning and devaluated the values which are essential to the Western, Greco-Roman-Christian culture. Now it is no longer Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, but "cultural", "democratic", "intellectual", "spiritual" even people or more or less anonymous agencies which culturally, democratically and spiritually destroy from within our civilization.

Yes, the enemy of love and justice is not so easy to identify as a single, 'bad' person out there, but is a diffuse moral relativism and 'pro-choice culture' that denies the reality of evil.

And we have just re-elected Obama who is the most pro-abortion 'rights' President the USA has known.

In August, 2012, Kelly Clinger.com posted this picture of a woman 20 weeks pregnant with twin girls going to Orlando Women's Center to have her babies killed.




Kelly writes: --- When I first started visiting the sidewalks of abortion clinics to pray and minister, I had no idea that late term abortions were even legal. I remember hearing about the Partial Birth Abortion Ban in 2007 and assumed (like most) that this stopped abortions late in a woman’s pregnancy.

... The Partial Birth Abortion Ban only stopped the use of that procedure late in a woman’s pregnancy.

Now, as long as the baby is dismembered before removing him or her from the womb, it’s perfectly legal. Look up the laws in your state. Keep in mind that in any state that has exceptions for the health of the mother, this can mean that if a woman has bad heartburn that’s a threat to her health. A late term abortion starts around $2,000 and can go up to about $15,000 depending on how far along a woman is in her pregnancy.

...I know it’s controversial to say this, but abortion truly is the holocaust of my generation. ...If each of us had to watch a late term abortion, surely there would be a revolution, right?

...The girl [in this picture] ended up aborting the twin girls in her womb even though we had every kind of help she would ever need ready for her. She admitted that she didn’t want girls and that she had no compassion for the babies she was carrying.

Through a two day process, she actually had to go into labor and deliver her sweet babies into a toilet.

Abortions like these happen all over the country every day. I hope that this girl’s picture made many so outraged that they are provoked to do something. When I spend hours on the Planned Parenthood sidewalk alone,

I want to cry out

“WHERE

IS

THE

CHURCH?”---

All,

The scripture passage below was in the epistle of the mass for this past Dec 19th. (It’s taken me a while to get around to posting on it, though I knew at its hearing that I would want to.)

It should prove useful in discussions with pro-abortion rights folks who consider themselves faithful to scripture and Christ – those who might be open to the truth. God’s word has power, and so this scripture may have an effect on open hearers of the word.

It clearly shows that God and His will and intentions are involved prior to conception (Psalm 139:13 also attests this) and from conception throughout the course of human gestation – as well as in birth and subsequent living. It testifies to the fact that abortion is clearly the obstruction of God and His plans for salvation history. Abortion goes against God’s will.

This passage concerns the announcement of the birth of Samson. As with Christ, an angel of the Lord announces God’s plans prior to conception. In this passage from Judges 13 we read of the angel’s counsel regarding protection of the developing person during the period of gestation. The angel’s counsel shows concern that the gestation not be damaged. Note that God’s permissive will and the pregnant woman’s responsibility are in play here. There is no: God will make it right despite human irresponsibility.

Judges 13: 3&4 – ‘An angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her: “Though you are barren and have had no children, yet you will conceive and bear a son. Now then, be careful to take no wine or strong drink and to eat nothing unclean.”

The woman then tells her husband of the angel’s appearance and counsel…

Judges 13: 7 –‘he said to me, “You will be with child and will bear a son. So take neither wine nor strong drink, and eat nothing unclean. For the boy shall be consecrated to God from the womb until the day of his death.” {Note it doesn't say birth -- which is the exiting of the womb -- to death.}

The husband, Manoah, prays for the angel’s return and teaching. The angel returns…

Judges 13: 13&14 – ‘The angel of the Lord answered Manoah, “Your wife is to abstain from all the things of which I spoke to her. She must not eat anything that comes from the vine, nor take wine or strong drink or eat anything unclean. Let her observe all that I have commanded her.”

So three (3) times we read of the angel-stated concerns to guard the period of gestation and the well-being of the developing person (Samson in this instance).

That the disregard for precautions during gestation and indeed for the taking of gestating life via abortion could reflect the will of God – that such dismissal could be considered scripturally indicative of God’s will ??????? … DUH!

How many Samsons, Ghandis, Martin Luther Kings, Confuscius’s, Michaelangelos, Mozarts, Einsteins, DaVincis, Pasteurs, Curies, Edisons, Shakespeares, Keats, Disneys, SJOCs, STAs, Pauls, JP-IIs and Mother Teresas etc (not to mention Elvis and Michael Jackson and Jimmy Durante and Vince Lombardi and Babe Ruth and Marilyn Monroe, Big Bird and Bud Weiser…Ha!) have been lost to mankind via abortion? 53 million in US since 1973; 400 million in China since 1980; rest of world…ongoing as well and with funded UN supported programs?

AND ‘Christian?’ ministers and congregations also supporting the same? ---- Aiyee! (and millstones).

Interesting too, that many believe the admonition to refrain from alcohol during pregnancy is relatively new and comes about with the benevolent passage of U.S. laws regarding the marking of labels on beverage containers. Thousands of years earlier an angel counseled mankind in this regard!

Have you noticed how the few weeks old progeny of prince William and his wife's is now called everywhere in the press and TV their "child"? Everyone in Britain is worrying about health and life of this child, while, at the same time, they deny even the right to call "children" all those unborn children who are aborted in the UK. What message is this? The media define who is a human being and who isn't, and what is more terrifying is that you only need to be aristocratic, rich, powerful, famous etc. to be a "child" in a womb. If you're just a helpless baby, you're a "fetus" to be ged rid of. And what was Jesus Christ like? Not really born in a royal family, in a palace, was he? Insignificant in the eyes of the world, poor, helpless, threatened by Herod... and yet He is the Wisdom and the Power of God, He is the Light that shines in darkness and the darkness cannot comprehend Him...

Abortion - maybe not a holocaust, but a Herodian murder, for sure.

Crazy times, Mt, Pop and Shasha!

Btw, Pop, I made a point similar to the one you're making about Samson regarding the conception of Jesus: how, from the first, he is given a name and a mission. Same goes for John the Baptist. Of course, none of that counts in the courtroom of secular reasoning, but it darned well should count for all Christians and Jews who believe revelation sheds light on this matter.

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:
...In this passage from Judges 13 we read of the angel’s counsel regarding protection of the developing person during the period of gestation.

The angel’s counsel shows concern that the gestation not be damaged. Note that God’s permissive will and the pregnant woman’s responsibility are in play here. There is no: God will make it right despite human irresponsibility. ...

That the disregard for precautions during gestation and indeed for the taking of gestating life via abortion could reflect the will of God – that such dismissal could be considered scripturally indicative of God’s will ??????? … DUH!...


AND ‘Christian?’ ministers and congregations also supporting the same? ---- Aiyee!

(and millstones)....

Yes, and I recall Phil making the same point. I did not know that about Samson. Thanks for sharing this Pops.

And millstones...yes, those church leaders will be accountable, to some extent, for the destruction of many lives.

And yes, these are crazy times.

When Mt referred to abortion as "barbaric" a few weeks ago, I was slightly taken aback. So relatively few people have the clarity to see what abortion is and fewer people have the courage to speak like that. After all, everyone knows someone close to them who have killed their pre-born child(ren). Everyone has a sister, daughter, mother, friend, spiritual leader, etc. who has chosen to do the barbaric act of dismembering the growing baby in their womb. So, how can we judge all those lovely people and beloved people as doing something barbaric?

In these times, the perverse becomes 'normal' so much so that we lose touch with reality. It's not 'wrong,' it's merely 'alternative lifestyle.' We point to evil and call it good, or at least morally and legally acceptable under whatever unfortunate circumstances. Or we point to the larger web of brokenness to which one single pro-abortion choice person cannot possible be held accountable.

When you hear stories of post-abortive men and women, you see how much abortions are the natural product of a bunch of dysfunctional and immoral determinants in our lives. It's hard to isolate abortion from the polluted psycho-social-spiritual soup of humanity (e.g., sexual abuse of children, divorce, devaluation of women, recreational sex, lack of moral teachings, lack of moral models, etc.). It takes a village to raise children-- wanted children , that is. The unwanted ones?..well, we can solve that problem before it becomes too big...

To call abortion barbaric is so politically uncouth.

Pre-born children are slaughtered by the thousands everyday at the alter of 'choice,' the alter of preserving the immoral lifestyles to which we have become accustomed.

quote:

Originally posted by Mt:
.. they deny even the right to call "children" all those unborn children who are aborted in the UK. What message is this? The media define who is a human being and who isn't, and what is more terrifying is that you only need to be aristocratic, rich, powerful, famous etc. to be a "child" in a womb.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the Prince and Princess of England could enjoy their pre-born baby and use the media attention to call abortion barbaric?!

quote:

It takes a village to raise children-- wanted children , that is. The unwanted ones?..well, we can solve that problem before it becomes too big...

Interesting fact about Martin Sheen, the actor and Catholic social activist (whose acting name, "Sheen," was taken after Fulton Sheen, the 20th C. Catholic bishop and apologist). As Wikipedia notes:

quote:

Sheen is pro-life. He discussed his views in a 2011 interview with RTÉ in which he said his wife was conceived through a rape and he says had her mother aborted her, or dumped her in the Ohio River as she had considered, his wife would not exist. He also talked about three of his grandchildren who were conceived out of wedlock, saying his sons "were not happy at the time but they came to love these children. We have three grown grandchildren, two of them are married, they’re some of the greatest source of joy in our lives."

Nevertheless . . .

quote:

He has drawn criticism for his continuous support for Democratic pro-choice politicians and also for portraying a fictional pro-choice President in a TV series. He stated recently that he supports same-sex marriage, unlike the Catholic Church.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...Religion_and_beliefs

Another enigma!

--------------- A 29-year old woman died yesterday as the result of fatal complications suffered during an abortion at 33 weeks. Late-term abortion practitioner LeRoy Carhart (left) performed the abortion at the Germantown Reproductive Health Center in Germantown, Maryland.

According to information the pro-life group Operation Rescue released to LifeNews today, the unnamed woman went to the abortion facility for a third trimester abortion from out-of-state and arrived at Germantown Reproductive Health Center on Sunday to start the abortion process. Local pro-life advocates protesting outside saw her every day until yesterday, and described her as appearing “pale and weak.”

...“In 2005, Carhart was also involved in the death of Christin Gilbert, who died after a third trimester abortion in Wichita, Kansas. It is time for medical boards to put an end to these horrifically dangerous and barbaric third trimester abortions. ...

“He already killed Christin Gilbert in Kansas in 2005, and now another senseless tragedy has come as a result of Carhart’s so-called women’s healthcare and the apathy of the pro-abortion Maryland State Government,” said Martelli. ----------


http://www.lifenews.com/2013/0...tion-takes-her-life/

In this great nation, it's LEGAL for a woman to have her baby killed through all nine months of pregnancy. It's the glory of what most call 'pro-choice' movement.

Thanks to the vigor of this movement, this woman died exercising her 'reproductive rights' to procure a safe and legal abortion.

I wonder how many feminists can actually feel good about any woman's 'right to choose' abortion and defend her personal, private reasons for aborting her baby at 33 weeks gestation? If so, it's a sad and shallow feminism.

Or would they champion 'abortion rights' but hasten to add: you gotta get a more skilled abortionist ladies! You know, the kind that know how to kill the baby with enough skill and expertise to not kill you in the process.

Astonishing that the documentary "After Tiller," which celebrates the lives of four late-term abortionists, can co-exist gleefully in the media alongside this story of the murder trial of abortionist Gosnell, who

...says he engaged in murder when he snipped the spinal cords of babies who were killed in live-birth abortions. ...The babies were born alive in the sixth, seventh and eighth months of pregnancy...

“A doctor who cuts into the necks severing the spinal cords of living, breathing babies, who would survive with proper medical attention, is committing murder under the law,” Philadelphia District Attorney Seth Williams said.
----------

http://www.lifenews.com/2013/0...ds-committed-murder/


So what's the difference between killing an unwanted newborn baby just minutes outside the womb and killing that baby inside the womb?

One baby is in the WOMB.

The other baby is in the ROOM.

Gosnell will probably go to jail (for killing unwanted babies in the room), but Tiller and his abortion buddies are touted as 'pro-choice' heros for killing babies in the WOMB.

So what's the take-home message here? If you can kill the child in the womb, it's considered a woman's "constitutional right." So if you
fail to completely destroy the life of that child while he is inside his mother's womb, don't let anybody see you finish off the job because now the child is legally protected from murder.

And we're supposed to pretend...what? that this makes sense in a civilized nation?

That's really stupid, isn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
That's really stupid, isn't it?

Yes! This is a stark, gigantic manifestation of our nation's moral depravity and failure to live by our own Constitution, a deep fragmentation in our collective psyche.

...about whether Gosnell was killing the infants one second after they left the womb instead of partially inside or completely inside the womb — as in a routine late-term abortion — is merely a matter of geography. That one is murder and the other is a legal procedure is morally irreconcilable.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ne...ate-the-absurdity-of

In other words, from that report linked above, here's the crux of the absurdity that underlies 'pro-abortion rights':

The abortionist’s crime isn’t therefore the fact that he killed these babies, but that he was too unskilled to kill them in the “right” way. Kill the baby one instant, and it is “reproductive healthcare.” Kill the baby the next instant, and it is capital murder. This is the outrageous contradiction created by legalized abortion

The author's conclusion is a heavy dose of reality:

...To him [Gosnell] it must appear unfair in the extreme that while he languishes in a jail cell facing the death penalty, his fellow abortionists continue to make good money doing basically the same thing he did while enjoying the full protection of the law. In fact, the main difference between him and them, is that his unorthodox method of killing babies is arguably safer for women. Rather than inserting medical instruments into the woman's body, and thereby risking perforating her uterus or causing other damage, he simply waited a few minutes until the baby was born to do the deed, and thereby avoided that risk.

Faced with this disturbing truth, society can choose one of two paths: to do the hard thing and acknowledge that we have been wrong for the past forty years, and that the unborn child is a part of the human family and possesses the right to life; or we can, as has happened in the Netherlands with legalized infant euthanasia, throw it all to the devil and protect our beloved “right” to abortion by extending it even beyond birth.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shasha,

"Plan B" now available to any girl 15 years or older without a prescription. This is supposed to be some sort of compromise. Sheesh, why not just make it 11?
- http://www.foxnews.com/politic...o-move-over-counter/

The rationale for early chemical abortions is to try to prevent later, more graphic and traumatizing abortions, I guess.

For instance, this 19 year old in Pennsylvania who was arrested after security cameras discovered she threw her 29-week old fetus in the trash. Children are viable at that age outside the womb. She first tried to flush the child down the toilet in the high school ladies room, but that didn't work, so the trash can was her next move to get rid of her child. This was just days after Live Action released a video of a NY abortion provider telling a 24-week pregnant mother that should the fetus be expelled at home, she should "flush it."

But early chemical abortions made easy to adolescent girls only 'enables' our culture of sexual promiscuity. Whatever weak barrier pregnancy is for young girls to NOT have sex is now destroyed with easy access "Plan B." Worse is yet to come, I'm sure...

An abortionist has now been found guilt of murder:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lo...urder-191903698.html

It's just so ridiculous! Kill them in the womb, no problem. Botch the process and kill them on the table: murder!