Hi Ray,

Thank you for sharing this information which I will double check, and triple check.

Since I am not familiar with these allegations, I want to say that for me the Ten Commandments are God's greatest law. Especially the First: "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and all your strength, and have no other God's before Him. This Commandment makes it very clear that God is the One God. We know that there are other gods, but our God is the One and besides Him there is no Savior.

Second Commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself". Notice it says only to love.

The rest of God's Commandments fall into place by the following the first two. There is absolute consistency in these Commandments.

Wish you would stay and further share with us. Your sharing is appreciated by me, although questionable in your presentation.

Ray,

P.S. I fully agree as to the Sermon on the Mount given by Jesus Christ, the Word of God, together with the Ten Commandments.

Ray,

Does the fire of the sun within us refer to the Bible's statement: The sun will turn black as sackcloth and the moon will turn to blood. Describing the death and rebirth of a person during the dark night of the soul when God's promise and gift of the Holy Spirit opens the Holy seed bringing forth God's light of the sun of righteousness (new birthed creature) who arises with healing in its wings?.

Rayray, you're good at providing a moving target, aren't you? Side-stepping my rebuttal of your fallacious point about Nicea deciding on the canon of Scripture, you move on now to point out inconsistencies and apparent contradictions, as though to make some kind of point about "trustworthiness." I notice, too, you ignored the posts by w.c. and I to the effect that the forbidden letters are working with a mystical physiology that's inherently unstable. So what's going on, here? You want to discuss the "forbidden letters" or just trollishly slam Judeo-Christian tradition?

I won't be responding to your post above, however, as it's not my job to teach you the basics of Scripture and how, especially with the Hebrew scriptures, there are often several oral traditions being integrated. Do consider that the communities that have made use of these Scriptures are fully aware of the "contradictions" you raise and understand them differently than you do.

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I'm leaving this Forum now. Busy as I am. And there are little questions I find worth while. All the best to you all.

Thanks for taking the time from your busy schedule to "enlighten us."

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Rayray, you're good at providing a moving target, aren't you? Side-stepping my rebuttal of your fallacious point about Nicea deciding on the canon of Scripture, you move on now to point out inconsistencies and apparent contradictions, as though to make some kind of point about "trustworthiness." I notice, too, you ignored the posts by w.c. and I to the effect that the forbidden letters are working with a mystical physiology that's inherently unstable. So what's going on, here? You want to discuss the "forbidden letters" or just trollishly slam Judeo-Christian tradition?

Good point, Phil. Danged if this isn't like reading "The Da Vinci Code" all over again�or listening to those who debate on why the things contained in the book are all factual while anything that any "official" Church decided on is all a cover-up.

Well, I have my own opinion about things, and I'm proud to say that I think they are really my own opinion. That is to say, I don't think this rather predictable and canned postmodern deconstructionist stuff is particularly original thinking.

Listen, either one believes that Christ rose from the grave or you don't. The rest is details, as far as I'm concerned. If he did, then case close. If he didn�t, then that means that the original apostles pretty much fabricated everything, even if they were somewhat well-meaning, even if it was just the result of over-zealousness. I find that all this Da Vinci Code and "forbidden" letter stuff just nips around the edges of the real questions. I mean, isn't it quite obvious that man has a hand in whatever is written in scripture? Unlike Islam, the Bible isn't supposed to be the actually dictated word of god, the literal world of god. It's supposed to be the inspired or revealed word of god, right? And that means human imperfection enters and thus contradictions enter. But we should forget that even if the Bible was the exact written word of god that the written word is inherently subjective. People read different things into the same word. This process is unavoidable. So to sort of nit-pick at inconsistencies is a bit futile and foolish.

In my mind I�m still not sure. Did Jesus rise from the grave? Well, my hunch is that the apostles are not the same set of angry, violent people Mohammed surrounded himself with or attracted. They seem like decent folk. But it is just so easy for stories to be exaggerated and embellished. I mean, just look at all this forbidden letter stuff and the attitude behind it. Even a simple truth gets mucked up quickly by conspiracy theorists and those for whom a very simple a profound truth is so simple and profound it just can not touch their hearts. I may be amongst that number.

Brad, I respect your honest sharing with us.

In an earlier post I had said that I would forward a reputable website explaining High Alchemy, which I am sure Ray would agree is right on as to the forbidden letters.

http://www.asc-alchemy.com/gold.html

I forward this for anyone who is still wondering as to what spiritual alchemy represents.

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In my mind I�m still not sure. Did Jesus rise from the grave? Well, my hunch is that the apostles are not the same set of angry, violent people Mohammed surrounded himself with or attracted. They seem like decent folk. But it is just so easy for stories to be exaggerated and embellished. I mean, just look at all this forbidden letter stuff and the attitude behind it. Even a simple truth gets mucked up quickly by conspiracy theorists and those for whom a very simple a profound truth is so simple and profound it just can not touch their hearts. I may be amongst that number.

A closer comparison would be between the early gnostics and the forbidden letters gang, imo. In the case of Jesus' resurrection, we're dealing with more than just subjective experiences ensuing from inner work. The resurrected Jesus manifest in concrete, physical ways, eating and drinking with the apostles (complete with leftover crumbs), talking to them, walking with some of them, cooking fish, etc. That's the kind of historical grounding Christianity has -- not to mention the silent witness of the empty tomb. All that anyone had to do is produce the corpse of Jesus and it was all over. That didn't happen either. And these apostles -- who were accused of getting past a Roman guard, stealing the body, then hiding it -- all went the rest of their lives without recanting of their belief, suffering and dying for their faith. Hard to see how/why they would do this for an embellished story of their own contrivance.

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Originally posted by Freebird:
[qb] Hi Ray,

Thank you for sharing this information which I will double check, and triple check.

Since I am not familiar with these allegations, I want to say that for me the Ten Commandments are God's greatest law. Especially the First: "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and all your strength, and have no other God's before Him. This Commandment makes it very clear that God is the One God. We know that there are other gods, but our God is the One and besides Him there is no Savior.

Second Commandment: "Love your neighbor as yourself". Notice it says only to love.

The rest of God's Commandments fall into place by the following the first two. There is absolute consistency in these Commandments.

Wish you would stay and further share with us. Your sharing is appreciated by me, although questionable in your presentation. [/qb]

Well, you're in luck. I just came back to copy a post by Phil.

You just go ahead and triple check whether God said Judas died twice in different ways.

On top of if, you can't command love. Although you will, without a doubt find that remark by me questionable too. In presentation, or otherwise.

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Originally posted by Freebird:
[qb] Ray,

P.S. I fully agree as to the Sermon on the Mount given by Jesus Christ, the Word of God, together with the Ten Commandments. [/qb]

No you don't. You run to the police if somebody steels your radio, and don't give your T.V. set too to the thief. Even selfdefense is forbidden in the Sermon on the Mount. Fancy, telling an American that he is not allowed to defend himself. That's what Bertold Brecht said: Americans are pagans with an attitude. Wearing guns, going to court. They worship on sunday's a communist and pacifist of the most radical sort. And then on Monday it's back to... the American Dream.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[QB] Rayray, you're good at providing a moving target, aren't you? Side-stepping my rebuttal of your fallacious point about Nicea deciding on the canon of Scripture, you move on now to point out inconsistencies and apparent contradictions, as though to make some kind of point about "trustworthiness."

Phil, you are doubting the Letters and I'm surprised that you don't doubt the canon of the Bible. That's well within this discussion. Only you don't like it (me pointing this all out).

On top of it, I don't think it's a courageous thing to attack a person after he has gone (you didn't know I was coming back).

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I notice, too, you ignored the posts by w.c. and I to the effect that the forbidden letters are working with a mystical physiology that's inherently unstable.

I always give credit where credit is due. If I critisize a post, it's because I think that post deserved that. And if I ignore a post, that could mean I agree with the post, or that the post lacks quality.

On top of this, you don't know anything on the mystical physiology of alchemy. Nobody does, except that gay man.

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So what's going on, here? You want to discuss the "forbidden letters" or just trollishly slam Judeo-Christian tradition?

Phil, you're just unhappy because of me posting all those contradictions. Take it out on God. I didn't compose His word.

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I won't be responding to your post above, however,

That would be the wisest thing to do indeed.

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as it's not my job to teach you the basics of Scripture and how,

You wouldn't say that if I read other posts by you.

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especially with the Hebrew scriptures, there are often several oral traditions being integrated.

So you do agree then that the Gospel is in the Bible, but not the whole Bible the Gospel.

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Do consider that the communities that have made use of these Scriptures are fully aware of the "contradictions" you raise

I can still shock 9 out of 10 Christians with that list. And Hillbilly's are even quite prepared to shoot me if I dare to present that list to them.

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and understand them differently than you do.

O, I'm sure they do.

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Thanks for taking the time from your busy schedule to "enlighten us."

Phil, that little emoticon (sticking out his tongue)after that sentence tells me you're not even a grown man. Really!

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Well, I have my own opinion about things, and I'm proud to say that I think they are really my own opinion. That is to say, I don't think this rather predictable and canned postmodern deconstructionist stuff is particularly original thinking.

Listen, either one believes that Christ rose from the grave or you don't.

Your own opinion? What if you were born in Mekka? Right, you'd be a Muslim. What if Bush was born in Mekka? Right, he'd be a Muslim too with his so called own opinion. And, with his agressive personality, probably a member of Al Qaida.

You don't see your social group as a place of brainwash, but it is in most cases.

quote:

Originally posted by Freebird:
[qb] Brad, I respect your honest sharing with us.

In an earlier post I had said that I would forward a reputable website explaining High Alchemy, which I am sure Ray would agree is right on as to the forbidden letters.

http://www.asc-alchemy.com/gold.html

I forward this for anyone who is still wondering as to what spiritual alchemy represents. [/qb]

Also the physical alchemy is discussed in the Letters. And that site is silly. They send you 'ingredients of alchemy' over the post. There is nothing in alcehmy that is outside the body.

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And these apostles -- who were accused of getting past a Roman guard, stealing the body, then hiding it -- all went the rest of their lives without recanting of their belief, suffering and dying for their faith. Hard to see how/why they would do this for an embellished story of their own contrivance.

Phil, with all due respect, but there is clearly no talking to you. You apparently can't even think that the stories of the resurrection were made up long after the so called discipels were already dead. Or that the Gospel never happened and hence there have never been any discipels (the Letters-theory). You can't even escape from your faith for a minute. Goodbye.

All very well put, w.c. I'll close this thread now and disable Rayray's posting privileges, as I've little hope for more productive exchanges with him on other threads. This one can stand as yet another demonstration of the kind of reasoning that comes from proponents of gnostic/occult pathways.