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This I write because I refuse to do homework you could do by reading the Letters carefully yourself. I mean this all in a friendly way. (If things sound a little unfriendly.) I think this thread, then, is pretty much dead, Rayray, unless you want to delve into the topic with your own opinion. Simply linking to some outside reference and that being that tells me that: A) You don't really understand the material, or B) The material is so controversial you don't want to associate too closely with it, or C) You don't want to sort of take responsibility for the material by summarizing it, commenting on it, or otherwise dealing with the material. So what's to discuss? Are we supposed to read the link, become an instant convert, and then thank you for bringing that to our attention? Or do you want to discuss it? If you can't summarize what those letters are all about, or what you think about them, then I guess this is some kind of weird cultish thing. | ||||
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I agree with Brad, Rayray. So far you haven't told us much about your own involvement with the letters, nor why you think they're important. That might help if you want people to discuss the topic with you. | ||||
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Actually, I have scanned those letters. But, call it tunnel vision if you will, I quickly decided that it was yet again one of those little Mickey Mouse club type of "secret and special knowledge" things. You know, where only a super elect group of people have the knowledge and wisdom to really know what�s going on because, of course, whatever the "herd" believes out there is just junk they�ve been fed so that someone else can control them and thus stay in power (and I�m more than a little sympathetic to this idea). But in terms of Christianity, stuff (I didn�t say "junk") like this certainly helps me to get a better grasp on the true spirit of Christianity, even if it has yet to grip me. This is very hard for me to describe (possibly because I have yet to experience a religious conversion), but I think there is a sort of superficial religious conversion of our intellect (and I�m by no means saying that the intellect is unimportant), and then there is a conversion of, well, not just our hearts but there is belief based on a deep-down conviction that the world itself is backed by God, just as the currency of the United States is backed by gold bullion in Fort Knox. If neither of the latter existed, then both of the former would be quite worthless and meaningless. So therefore, sort of "getting" God isn�t about some complicated procedure or formula. Nor is it just some love-struck feeling in the heart. It�s the, if you�ll pardon the expression, "alchemy" of the both that produces some third thing that is both the result of the intellect and heart, and yet neither. It is more than the some of its parts, but it is not just a harder or more rigid belief, no more than it is just a heart that is full of nothing but the light, flutters of an all-encompassing love. To try to maintain either is a good way to either go crazy or to revert to a nasty form of fundamentalism. Perhaps Gnosticism (at least the stereotypical "bad" form of it) is a fundamentalism of the mind. And that�s what I sense about these so-called "Forbidden" letters. Religious belief is treated a safe that has to be cracked open with the right combination. And I�m quite dubious about the prospects of that. It seems to me that the message of Jesus is fairly straightforward. Yes, either a church or a bunch of "forbidden letters" can complicate this process. And perhaps because many churches have there is this kind of stuff popping up that purports to give one the "real" story, the mystical story. And, heck, the whole idea of God is pretty mystical so it would make sense that a certain amount of spooky "voodoo-like" stuff would be appropriate. But I�m not so sure. That just doesn�t sound right to me. It doesn�t sound very democratic to me. I think cults thrive because we�re all looking for certainty. We all think that we plow through all the centuries of malarkey and make things simple and clear. Or, because things aren�t simple and clear, we do our own bit of fortune telling and come up with our own answers. Actually, I don�t mind that approach at all. Just me and god, that�s what I say. That seems simple and complete to me. But good god, have you read any of those so-called "forbidden" letters? Talk about convoluted and complicated, and this is perhaps why no one wants to get into specifics about these letters. No one knows what the heck any of this stuff means! | ||||
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That's it Brad, you are telling it like it is. We are not alchemists, and speaking for myself, I do like to learn new things and share in a discussion with everyone. So far Rayray, you have dangled a carrot before us and insisted on us little children to learn what this alchemy is all about in what is revealed within in the Letters. The next step is for you to share more knowledge and your involvement with this particular alchemy in our education of same Otherwise' what is the purpose of your topic?. | ||||
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Sorry Phil, I just noticed that I said almost the identical same as you in an earlier post. By the way I got Lord of the Rings video, as you recommended in my lack of knowledge as to the personality of a troll. Yes, the are mean, to say the least. Later I will watch part 2 and 3 tomorrow for completion. I love the action and the battle between good and evil. I was under a rock for many years and did not watch television, still don't, but now do enjoy videos. Your recommendation joins Brad's as super with the Neverending story. Thanks. | ||||
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That's what I mean by doing your onw homework. You have all the outside reference with google. ? ? I was waiting for specific and intelligent answers. To give you an example: I've been on another Forum where after three days someone asked me: so what do you think this stone is about? That question, really. Yes, please. Without off topic posts if possible. Well, here is your summary: God is in you. In your microcosmic 'tissue'. Alchemy is the goal of evolution and about deification. How that works is described in the Letters. The key to that process is a microcosmic stone (nobody understands that without a doubt). A living stone. It ignites a sub-atomic fire (rebirth through fire). That is the summary, and it is in the Letters wherever you look. Dead is dead. You need a living Tree of Life (spine and brain) to be resurrected (religion is myth misunderstood). There is no after-life-life. Greetings, Ray. P.S. This all demonstrates how secret the secrets on the Kingdom of God really are. That you don't know what to do with the Letters while at the same time everything is spelled out. | ||||
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Whatever the herd believes must, 9 out of 10 times be nonsense. Go talk to the herd on anything and you'll find that out. What is it some famous Roman said (Cicero) after he adressed the masses and they applauded him? 'Did I say something stupid'? It so happens that a man is there who says a stone is produced and a fire is ignited and he is consumed and recomposed by the fire. A stone. Now, you may not believe that, but in that case you shouldn't be in this topic. So you judge metaphysics by your democratic conviction? The Letters don't offer certainty. On the contrary. Again, a stone is produced. The New Testament is much more complicated. There aren't thousands of denomonations in the world for nothing. Almost everybody on gnostic, alchemical and agnostic Forums does. | ||||
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Almost everybody on gnostic, alchemical and agnostic Forums does. I'm sure that's the case, Rayray, but you've probably picked up by now that we're more in the tradition of orthodox Apostolic Christianity. That said, I've much valued Jung's approach to alchemy -- as a way of speaking of inner transformation using archetypal language. It also resonates somewhat with literature on the kundalini process. My brief perusal of "The Letters" left me with the impression that what they're describing is more along those lines than what orthodox Christianity means by resurrection or mystical transformation (theosis). Problem is, I don't think many people on gnostic, alchemical and agnostic fora know the difference. | ||||
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Information. Woo hoo! That said, I could write five cryptic letters tomorrow and what good would that be? Anyway, thanks for giving what information that you did, Rayray. I will admit that life is mysterious and that the truth behind it, if any, may look very strange indeed. But everything that you're saying sounds like crackpot religion to me. Sorry. | ||||
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Well, it's just the otherway around, in my opinion. The gnostic and alchemical world knows the orthodoxy very well (it's on t.v. even!), but the orhodoxy almost nothing on alchemy. 'Religion is myth misunderstood' is not an often used sentence in that world for nothing. And orthodoxy: it were humans who formed orthodoxy. This (bible)book in, that (bible)book out (Nicea). Thanks for your post which was very good. Although I don't have the same opinion. Greetz, Ray. | ||||
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Spiritual alchemy is also the pursuit of kundalini awakening, integration and transformation. Alchemists have tried for centuries to perfect and accomplish "The great work" in their pursuit of the desired philosophers stone. The homosexual man who claims to have succeeded in making himself immortal, what can I say, except to offer him my congratulations. Of course, God's fire is important. He is the consuming fire in the destruction of the old and the birthing of the new. Hopefully, the man will share all of his secrets with other alchemists so that they can accomplish same immortality like him. It certainly would be a loving gift to all. For myself, I put my trust in God to accomplish His will and love in furthering my new birth, and also His working in and through all children. As you mention Ray, God is in all of us, including the kundalini energy. I again mention the great dangers associated with the pursuit and meddling ourselves with God's energies and mixing same in the accomplishment and success of spiritual alchemy. Medical science is still so unaware of the workings, and are lacking in spiritual knowledge, of God's transforming graces within our bodies. This is unfortunate. Before God's gift of a new birth, having died to this life, a large amount of radiation was found within my body which medical science was unable to explain. Radiation is light and I believe before birthing the light, it was forming within the darkness of myself coming alive within God's seed, as promised. Yes, I see your point as to the spine and brain in attaining the tree of life which needs the water of life, together with the Holy Spirit, all gifts and graces of God. The most important thing for all of us is to know God is love living in our hearts. Both creative energies belong to Him, the red and the white. Christ is our hope and glory. | ||||
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The homosexual man who claims to have succeeded in making himself immortal... Well, I claim to have made myself omniscient. I announce that the so-called �forbidden� letters are just a relatively harmless fantasy. So, where do we go from here with all this Da Vinci Code-ish stuff? I would suggest you hang your hat on something more substantial, Rayray. Someone sent me an article by Erwin Raphael McManus yesterday: I thought that bulleted list was outstanding. I don�t know if it�s true, but if there is anything true about this mystery of life, it would be a good bet that that list would encapsulate it. Either that or everything is quite pointless, undirected, and random (which I hold out as a distinct possibility as well). So we must make up our minds. We can, of course, remain much in doubt. I don�t find that to be a crime at all. After all, life does not come with an unambiguous set of instructions. But if there are instructions, they will have been revealed as in reveled theology. If there aren�t instructions, and god just sort of leaves us here on our own (which I think is a distinct possibility), then we can tinker endlessly, and probably quite pointlessly, in finding �codes� and clues and developing complex alchemical conspiracy theories for what life is all about, how to live it, and what to expect next. And it will have little, if any meaning, because one can quite literally invent anything. To me, science is the discipline that ought to be looking at nature for �codes,� connections, and what-not. And so it does and it finds wondrous things which it then writes out in mathematical laws. But to try to adopt this �scientific� technique for alchemically divining the mystery of life is to find absolutely nothing. All it is is a shortcut for trying to boost our security, sense of worth, or self-esteem. With all this �Da Vinci Code-ish� stuff, one feels one is in on some special secret and thus is privileged in some way. And it�s not that life isn�t mysterious and that it shouldn�t pique our imagination and interest. It should. It does. And it is a very good thing that it does. But I find all this �special knowledge� stuff to be inherently arrogant. We are all god�s children or none of us are his children. If one has to break some kind of �code� to get at the truth, as if one were picking a lock, then doesn�t that just scream out to you that you must be on the wrong track? It does me. It is an ongoing mystery to me why, if there is a God, he or she remains so mysterious and seemingly distant. And, yes, I have picked my own brain to try to unravel this mystery. I have not so far. But I do know that if there is ANY code that we can break it is the code of our own egos. Instead of trying to raise ourselves up (immortality?...oy vey), we need to think about lowering ourselves. | ||||
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Hallelujah! quote: Yes, there is a secret, and it is that our souls long for God and that strangely enough, as hard as it may be to believe, God longs for you. ------------------------------ Amen. | ||||
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No, that's not true. The canon of the New Testament, especially the four Gospels, was pretty well set by the middle of the second century. That's not even controversial. And the criteria is a little more complicated than you're suggesting. | ||||
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Brad, that article you shared has some glaring errors, imo: That's a rather extreme accusation, don't you think? Empty religion? That's all there is? A silly straw-man point, as though that's all there is. Good heavens! Kind of a "cheap shot" at Roman Catholicism as well, it seems to me. All true, but it's a rather gross oversight to leave out how sin separates us from God, how Christ's death breaks the hold of sin, and how it is through faith and membership in the Church that we come to live as members of the mystical body of Christ. You don't have to read between the lines to pick up those points. I strongly disagree. Note that the author gives no specifics about this. That's not exactly a secret for Christians. Good heavens, it's right there in Romans 8. | ||||
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Also, Brad: God is not distant, but is closer to us than we are to ourselves. God's presence isn't something we'll discover by exercising our brains, however. "Be still, and know that I am God." Shhh. . . . Be still . . . . Yes indeed. | ||||
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That's a rather extreme accusation, don't you think? Empty religion? That's all there is? I didn�t figure you�d agree with all of the article, Phil. But it was a short one so I posted the whole thing rather than just excerpt it. I like the author�s point about not making things too arcane. I think this relates directly to the topic at hand. Rightly or wrongly, I see all this �Forbidden Letters� stuff as more Da Vinci Code nonsense. All true, but it's a rather gross oversight to leave out how sin separates us from God, how Christ's death breaks the hold of sin, and how it is through faith and membership in the Church that we come to live as members of the mystical body of Christ. You don't have to read between the lines to pick up those points. I wonder if he was going for a more ecumenical scope. I took a look at a couple of McManus� books at Amazon.com. From the reviews, I like what seems to be his overall approach. That's not exactly a secret for Christians. Good heavens, it's right there in Romans 8. Well, I certainly think that McManus is of the opinion that organized religion has often obscured things. But two themes intertwine in this article: the supposed sins of organized religion and the specious �facts� of the Da Vinci Code. One could say that he was bouncing the �The secret that must be exposed is that God has come into human history� statement off of the Da Vinci Coders who look for smaller and smaller nuggets of truth while overlooking possibly some larger ones that are staring them in the face. | ||||
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Good advice. | ||||
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I agree with that point, for sure. But the article also seems to water down some aspects of the biblical message and has a couple of indirect slams against Catholicism. I'll open another thread on "organized religion" and we can go over the pros and cons there. Maybe that'll become a sort of resource thread we can point to whenever the topic comes up, as it does so often, it seems. | ||||
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Thanks for that sharing, w.c. It certainly lends credibility to your points. My hunch is that alchemical, gnostic, and other occult systems really are onto something, but it's a "dead horse." After all, the spiritual soul IS immortal, and traditional Jewish and Christian teaching holds that this immortality was meant to somehow include the body as well. So what seems likely is that the chakras, nadis, spiritual archetypes -- a mystical physiology, of sorts -- gives evidence of a profound integreation between the spiritual and physical. It also seems likely that what we've been calling kundalini is an energy/process that enabled this integration, "spiritualizing" the body, if you will. This process and its mystical physiology are still with us, but because of the Fall, the disorder in human nature is too severe to allow for any kind of successfual realization of the embodied immortality available to our spiritual forebears (aka Adam and Eve). Even in the best of cases, the best we can do is embody some kind of Ego-Self connection, and that only tenuously (see Ego and Self thread). So the charting of this physiology and the effort to fire it up again is really akin to a "Tower of Babel" dynamic -- of the Ego striving to elevate itself to the heights of consciousness. The alternative posed by orthodox Christianity is incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ, which embodies Jesus' risen life on earth. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, our mystical phsyiology becomes integrated with the sacred humanity of Christ -- especially through the Eucharist -- and we live by the life of his Body, not our own. The spiritual soul thus realizes again its destiny for immortality in a body . . . a risen body like that of Christ's. It wasn't because of ignorance of the esoteric meaning of Scripture that the early Church condemned gnostic sects, but because She had found something much better in what Christ actually revealed. | ||||
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Thanks Freebird for your truelly beautifull post. But still you didn't read the letters very well (They are difficult.) The Stone is Gods grace if we follow the letters (and if they are true. The process of the Work of the Sun is lead by 'God'. 'Whatever the Grail starts, the Grail will finish', the Paris 4 say. And my intuition tells me that no matter how terrible and violent that resurrection and The Night of the Soul are (the dark and dangerous way to life in the Bible), you will succeed. The Letters also say 'you can't invite yourself to the Grail'. I trust that statement fully. By instinct. And again, the Alchemists of the Past weren't the alchemists. They either thought the Gold was the chemical gold we know, or they had deeper understanding of alchemy, but not to deep enough to understand it really. The fact alone that they thought the stone is prodcued in the end where it is the staring point of all. Greetings, Ray. | ||||
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Phil, the way you were lied at. The Canon of the Gospel set by the middle of the second cenury.. Go do your homework! | ||||
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Phil, that is not controversial in orhodox circels who are reluctant to check history. Here comes something of that history: Taken form http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament Greetings. | ||||
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Phil, your trust the Bible, I get from your posts. But the truth is, no human author has so many absurdities and contradictions and silly language (the greek of the New Testament is that of a 7 year old, said Professor Man)in his book than the author of the Bible: God. Here are some examples taken form a post on another Forum. And now be honest Phil, if only a small portion of these absurdities were found in the Koran, or the Baghavadgita, then that would be for you a reason to say to yourself: who can trust a book that has these contradictions? But now it's the Bible you don't. P.S. I'm leaving this Forum now. Busy as I am. And there are little questions I find worth while. All the best to you all. | ||||
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