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This I write because I refuse to do homework you could do by reading the Letters carefully yourself. I mean this all in a friendly way. (If things sound a little unfriendly.)

I think this thread, then, is pretty much dead, Rayray, unless you want to delve into the topic with your own opinion. Simply linking to some outside reference and that being that tells me that:

A) You don't really understand the material, or
B) The material is so controversial you don't want to associate too closely with it, or
C) You don't want to sort of take responsibility for the material by summarizing it, commenting on it, or otherwise dealing with the material.

So what's to discuss? Are we supposed to read the link, become an instant convert, and then thank you for bringing that to our attention? Or do you want to discuss it?

If you can't summarize what those letters are all about, or what you think about them, then I guess this is some kind of weird cultish thing.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I agree with Brad, Rayray. So far you haven't told us much about your own involvement with the letters, nor why you think they're important. That might help if you want people to discuss the topic with you.
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Actually, I have scanned those letters. But, call it tunnel vision if you will, I quickly decided that it was yet again one of those little Mickey Mouse club type of "secret and special knowledge" things. You know, where only a super elect group of people have the knowledge and wisdom to really know what�s going on because, of course, whatever the "herd" believes out there is just junk they�ve been fed so that someone else can control them and thus stay in power (and I�m more than a little sympathetic to this idea).

But in terms of Christianity, stuff (I didn�t say "junk") like this certainly helps me to get a better grasp on the true spirit of Christianity, even if it has yet to grip me.

This is very hard for me to describe (possibly because I have yet to experience a religious conversion), but I think there is a sort of superficial religious conversion of our intellect (and I�m by no means saying that the intellect is unimportant), and then there is a conversion of, well, not just our hearts but there is belief based on a deep-down conviction that the world itself is backed by God, just as the currency of the United States is backed by gold bullion in Fort Knox. If neither of the latter existed, then both of the former would be quite worthless and meaningless. So therefore, sort of "getting" God isn�t about some complicated procedure or formula. Nor is it just some love-struck feeling in the heart. It�s the, if you�ll pardon the expression, "alchemy" of the both that produces some third thing that is both the result of the intellect and heart, and yet neither. It is more than the some of its parts, but it is not just a harder or more rigid belief, no more than it is just a heart that is full of nothing but the light, flutters of an all-encompassing love. To try to maintain either is a good way to either go crazy or to revert to a nasty form of fundamentalism. Perhaps Gnosticism (at least the stereotypical "bad" form of it) is a fundamentalism of the mind. And that�s what I sense about these so-called "Forbidden" letters. Religious belief is treated a safe that has to be cracked open with the right combination. And I�m quite dubious about the prospects of that.

It seems to me that the message of Jesus is fairly straightforward. Yes, either a church or a bunch of "forbidden letters" can complicate this process. And perhaps because many churches have there is this kind of stuff popping up that purports to give one the "real" story, the mystical story. And, heck, the whole idea of God is pretty mystical so it would make sense that a certain amount of spooky "voodoo-like" stuff would be appropriate. But I�m not so sure. That just doesn�t sound right to me. It doesn�t sound very democratic to me.

I think cults thrive because we�re all looking for certainty. We all think that we plow through all the centuries of malarkey and make things simple and clear. Or, because things aren�t simple and clear, we do our own bit of fortune telling and come up with our own answers. Actually, I don�t mind that approach at all. Just me and god, that�s what I say. That seems simple and complete to me. But good god, have you read any of those so-called "forbidden" letters? Talk about convoluted and complicated, and this is perhaps why no one wants to get into specifics about these letters. No one knows what the heck any of this stuff means!
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's it Brad, you are telling it like it is. We are not alchemists, and speaking for myself, I do like to learn new things and share in a discussion with everyone.

So far Rayray, you have dangled a carrot before us and insisted on us little children to learn what this alchemy is all about in what is revealed within in the Letters. The next step is for you to share more knowledge and your involvement with this particular alchemy in our education of same Otherwise' what is the purpose of your topic?.

Big Grin Big Grin
 
Posts: 571 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 20 June 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry Phil, I just noticed that I said almost the identical same as you in an earlier post. Big Grin
By the way I got Lord of the Rings video, as you recommended in my lack of knowledge as to the personality of a troll. Yes, the are mean, to say the least. Later I will watch part 2 and 3 tomorrow for completion. I love the action and the battle between good and evil.

I was under a rock for many years and did not watch television, still don't, but now do enjoy videos. Your recommendation joins Brad's as super with the Neverending story. Thanks.
 
Posts: 571 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 20 June 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
I think this thread, then, is pretty much dead, Rayray, unless you want to delve into the topic with your own opinion. Simply linking to some outside reference
That's what I mean by doing your onw homework. You have all the outside reference with google.

quote:
and that being that tells me that:

A) You don't really understand the material,
?

quote:
or
B) The material is so controversial you don't want to associate too closely with it,
?

quote:
or
C) You don't want to sort of take responsibility for the material by summarizing it, commenting on it, or otherwise dealing with the material.
I was waiting for specific and intelligent answers. To give you an example: I've been on another Forum where after three days someone asked me: so what do you think this stone is about?

quote:
So what's to discuss?
That question, really.

quote:
Are we supposed to read the link, become an instant convert, and then thank you for bringing that to our attention? Or do you want to discuss it?
Yes, please. Without off topic posts if possible.

quote:
If you can't summarize what those letters are all about, or what you think about them, then I guess this is some kind of weird cultish thing. [/QB]
Well, here is your summary: God is in you. In your microcosmic 'tissue'. Alchemy is the goal of evolution and about deification. How that works is described in the Letters. The key to that process is a microcosmic stone (nobody understands that without a doubt). A living stone. It ignites a sub-atomic fire (rebirth through fire). That is the summary, and it is in the Letters wherever you look. Dead is dead. You need a living Tree of Life (spine and brain) to be resurrected (religion is myth misunderstood). There is no after-life-life.

Greetings,
Ray.


P.S.

This all demonstrates how secret the secrets on the Kingdom of God really are. That you don't know what to do with the Letters while at the same time everything is spelled out. Wink
 
Posts: 22 | Registered: 16 May 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
whatever the "herd" believes out there is just junk they�ve been fed so that someone else can control them and thus stay in power (and I�m more than a little sympathetic to this idea).
Whatever the herd believes must, 9 out of 10 times be nonsense. Go talk to the herd on anything and you'll find that out. Smiler

What is it some famous Roman said (Cicero) after he adressed the masses and they applauded him? 'Did I say something stupid'?

quote:
his is very hard for me to describe (possibly because I have yet to experience a religious conversion), but I think there is a sort of superficial religious conversion of our intellect (and I�m by no means saying that the intellect is unimportant), and then there is a conversion of, well, not just our hearts but there is belief based on a deep-down conviction that the world itself is backed by God, just as the currency of the United States is backed by gold bullion in Fort Knox. If neither of the latter existed, then both of the former would be quite worthless and meaningless. So therefore, sort of "getting" God isn�t about some complicated procedure or formula. Nor is it just some love-struck feeling in the heart. It�s the, if you�ll pardon the expression, "alchemy" of the both that produces some third thing that is both the result of the intellect and heart, and yet neither. It is more than the some of its parts, but it is not just a harder or more rigid belief, no more than it is just a heart that is full of nothing but the light, flutters of an all-encompassing love. To try to maintain either is a good way to either go crazy or to revert to a nasty form of fundamentalism. Perhaps Gnosticism (at least the stereotypical "bad" form of it) is a fundamentalism of the mind. And that�s what I sense about these so-called "Forbidden" letters. Religious belief is treated a safe that has to be cracked open with the right combination. And I�m quite dubious about the prospects of that.
It so happens that a man is there who says a stone is produced and a fire is ignited and he is consumed and recomposed by the fire. A stone. Now, you may not believe that, but in that case you shouldn't be in this topic.

quote:
It seems to me that the message of Jesus is fairly straightforward. Yes, either a church or a bunch of "forbidden letters" can complicate this process. And perhaps because many churches have there is this kind of stuff popping up that purports to give one the "real" story, the mystical story. And, heck, the whole idea of God is pretty mystical so it would make sense that a certain amount of spooky "voodoo-like" stuff would be appropriate. But I�m not so sure. That just doesn�t sound right to me. It doesn�t sound very democratic to me.
So you judge metaphysics by your democratic conviction?

quote:
I think cults thrive because we�re all looking for certainty
The Letters don't offer certainty. On the contrary.

quote:
We all think that we plow through all the centuries of malarkey and make things simple and clear. Or, because things aren�t simple and clear, we do our own bit of fortune telling and come up with our own answers. Actually, I don�t mind that approach at all. Just me and god, that�s what I say.
Again, a stone is produced.

quote:
That seems simple and complete to me. But good god, have you read any of those so-called "forbidden" letters? Talk about convoluted and complicated, and this is perhaps why no one wants to get into specifics about these letters.
The New Testament is much more complicated. There aren't thousands of denomonations in the world for nothing.

quote:
No one knows what the heck any of this stuff means!
Almost everybody on gnostic, alchemical and agnostic Forums does.
 
Posts: 22 | Registered: 16 May 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Almost everybody on gnostic, alchemical and agnostic Forums does.

I'm sure that's the case, Rayray, but you've probably picked up by now that we're more in the tradition of orthodox Apostolic Christianity. That said, I've much valued Jung's approach to alchemy -- as a way of speaking of inner transformation using archetypal language. It also resonates somewhat with literature on the kundalini process. My brief perusal of "The Letters" left me with the impression that what they're describing is more along those lines than what orthodox Christianity means by resurrection or mystical transformation (theosis). Problem is, I don't think many people on gnostic, alchemical and agnostic fora know the difference. Wink
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Well, here is your summary: God is in you. In your microcosmic 'tissue'. Alchemy is the goal of evolution and about deification. How that works is described in the Letters. The key to that process is a microcosmic stone (nobody understands that without a doubt). A living stone. It ignites a sub-atomic fire (rebirth through fire). That is the summary, and it is in the Letters wherever you look. Dead is dead. You need a living Tree of Life (spine and brain) to be resurrected (religion is myth misunderstood). There is no after-life-life.
Information. Woo hoo! That said, I could write five cryptic letters tomorrow and what good would that be? Anyway, thanks for giving what information that you did, Rayray. I will admit that life is mysterious and that the truth behind it, if any, may look very strange indeed. But everything that you're saying sounds like crackpot religion to me. Sorry.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] Almost everybody on gnostic, alchemical and agnostic Forums does.

I'm sure that's the case, Rayray, but you've probably picked up by now that we're more in the tradition of orthodox Apostolic Christianity. That said, I've much valued Jung's approach to alchemy -- as a way of speaking of inner transformation using archetypal language. It also resonates somewhat with literature on the kundalini process. My brief perusal of "The Letters" left me with the impression that what they're describing is more along those lines than what orthodox Christianity means by resurrection or mystical transformation (theosis). Problem is, I don't think many people on gnostic, alchemical and agnostic fora know the difference. Wink [/qb]
Well, it's just the otherway around, in my opinion. The gnostic and alchemical world knows the orthodoxy very well (it's on t.v. even!), but the orhodoxy almost nothing on alchemy. 'Religion is myth misunderstood' is not an often used sentence in that world for nothing.

And orthodoxy: it were humans who formed orthodoxy. This (bible)book in, that (bible)book out (Nicea).

Thanks for your post which was very good. Although I don't have the same opinion.

Greetz,
Ray.
 
Posts: 22 | Registered: 16 May 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Spiritual alchemy is also the pursuit of kundalini awakening, integration and transformation. Alchemists have tried for centuries to perfect and accomplish "The great work" in their pursuit of the desired philosophers stone.

The homosexual man who claims to have succeeded in making himself immortal, what can I say, except to offer him my congratulations. Of course, God's fire is important. He is the consuming fire in the destruction of the old and the birthing of the new. Hopefully, the man will share all of his secrets with other alchemists so that they can accomplish same immortality like him. It certainly would be a loving gift to all.

For myself, I put my trust in God to accomplish His will and love in furthering my new birth, and also His working in and through all children.

As you mention Ray, God is in all of us, including the kundalini energy. I again mention the great dangers associated with the pursuit and meddling ourselves with God's energies and mixing same in the accomplishment and success of spiritual alchemy.

Medical science is still so unaware of the workings, and are lacking in spiritual knowledge, of God's transforming graces within our bodies. This is unfortunate.

Before God's gift of a new birth, having died to this life, a large amount of radiation was found within my body which medical science was unable to explain. Radiation is light and I believe before birthing the light, it was forming within the darkness of myself coming alive within God's seed, as promised.

Yes, I see your point as to the spine and brain in attaining the tree of life which needs the water of life, together with the Holy Spirit, all gifts and graces of God.

The most important thing for all of us is to know God is love living in our hearts. Both creative energies belong to Him, the red and the white. Christ is our hope and glory.
 
Posts: 571 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 20 June 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The homosexual man who claims to have succeeded in making himself immortal...

Well, I claim to have made myself omniscient. I announce that the so-called �forbidden� letters are just a relatively harmless fantasy. So, where do we go from here with all this Da Vinci Code-ish stuff?

I would suggest you hang your hat on something more substantial, Rayray. Someone sent me an article by Erwin Raphael McManus yesterday:

quote:
The Secret Code of the Bible
By: Erwin Raphael McManus

Well, it�s almost here, what may be the most anticipated movie of the last 20 years. It�s amazing so much controversy has surrounded a book that can only be bought in the fiction section. I don�t think there has ever been more rebuttals to a book that acknowledges it is a product of someone�s vivid and creative imagination. If you think about it, the actual title of any book that has been written to counteract the effect of The Da Vinci Code should be �Why Dan Brown�s make-believe story isn�t true.� Don�t get me wrong, it�s really important to me what people think of Jesus, but instead of upsetting me that people are thinking the wrong thing about Him, I guess I am pretty amazed that 2000 years later people are still thinking about Him at all. Kind of tells you something about the extraordinary nature of this simple carpenter out of Nazareth.

I don�t think it is coincidental that The Da Vinci Code has hit such a compelling chord among its audience. Perhaps two of the most compelling figures in history are Leonardo Da Vinci and Jesus of Nazareth. Add to that recipe a conspiracy theory, a subversive plot, and the decoding of long-held secrets then you have a story that becomes a magnet to the human curiosity.

What has been curious to me is how many people have without reservation embraced The Da Vinci Code as unquestioned historic fact. Ironically, the very same people who reject the Scriptures for lack of substantial evidence readily embrace The Da Vinci Code as if we found the original manuscript right next to The Gospel of Judas. I think there is a reason why we lean towards believing that something more is going on besides what we see in modern day Christianity and Catholicism. Even the smallest amount of understanding of who Jesus was would cause you to wonder how in the world could present day Christianity be what his life was all about. I think we not only are ready to believe that there must be more to the story of Jesus. I think deep down we hope that there is. If all the death of Jesus was about was the establishing of a new religion, it seems like an incredible waste of energy.

And for those who are searching for the secret code of the Bible, the hidden message that has been buried and lost over the centuries, my message is do not lose heart. Your instincts are right, the message of Jesus has been lost in the catacombs of thousands of years of empty religion. Jesus never intended his movement to be about cathedrals and robes and titles and power. He never intended to establish a religious version of the Roman Empire.

The secret message of the Bible is one of elegant simplicity:

+ We are created in the image and likeness of God.
+ We are the object of his passionate love and concern.
+ We have potential beyond our wildest imagination.
+ We were created to live in relationship with God.
+ We are spiritual beings and need God to be fully alive.
+ We are closer to God than we know.
+ We have been lied to about what God demands of us.

The secret that must be exposed is that God has come into human history in the person of Jesus Christ so that all of us might become the sons and daughters of God. We are all to be the holy grail.

Perhaps what I love most about the controversy created by The Da Vinci Code is that it exposes how the institutional church has corrupted the message and mission of Jesus Christ. It has clouded in secrecy and hypocrisy what should have remained a simple message of acceptance, forgiveness, and freedom. Yes, there is a secret, and it is that our souls long for God and that strangely enough, as hard as it may be to believe, God longs for you.
I thought that bulleted list was outstanding. I don�t know if it�s true, but if there is anything true about this mystery of life, it would be a good bet that that list would encapsulate it. Either that or everything is quite pointless, undirected, and random (which I hold out as a distinct possibility as well). So we must make up our minds. We can, of course, remain much in doubt. I don�t find that to be a crime at all. After all, life does not come with an unambiguous set of instructions. But if there are instructions, they will have been revealed as in reveled theology. If there aren�t instructions, and god just sort of leaves us here on our own (which I think is a distinct possibility), then we can tinker endlessly, and probably quite pointlessly, in finding �codes� and clues and developing complex alchemical conspiracy theories for what life is all about, how to live it, and what to expect next. And it will have little, if any meaning, because one can quite literally invent anything.

To me, science is the discipline that ought to be looking at nature for �codes,� connections, and what-not. And so it does and it finds wondrous things which it then writes out in mathematical laws. But to try to adopt this �scientific� technique for alchemically divining the mystery of life is to find absolutely nothing. All it is is a shortcut for trying to boost our security, sense of worth, or self-esteem. With all this �Da Vinci Code-ish� stuff, one feels one is in on some special secret and thus is privileged in some way. And it�s not that life isn�t mysterious and that it shouldn�t pique our imagination and interest. It should. It does. And it is a very good thing that it does. But I find all this �special knowledge� stuff to be inherently arrogant. We are all god�s children or none of us are his children. If one has to break some kind of �code� to get at the truth, as if one were picking a lock, then doesn�t that just scream out to you that you must be on the wrong track? It does me.

It is an ongoing mystery to me why, if there is a God, he or she remains so mysterious and seemingly distant. And, yes, I have picked my own brain to try to unravel this mystery. I have not so far. But I do know that if there is ANY code that we can break it is the code of our own egos. Instead of trying to raise ourselves up (immortality?...oy vey), we need to think about lowering ourselves.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hallelujah!

quote:

Yes, there is a secret, and it is that our souls long for God and that strangely enough, as hard as it may be to believe, God longs for you.

------------------------------

Amen.
 
Posts: 571 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 20 June 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:

And orthodoxy: it were humans who formed orthodoxy. This (bible)book in, that (bible)book out (Nicea).
No, that's not true. The canon of the New Testament, especially the four Gospels, was pretty well set by the middle of the second century. That's not even controversial. And the criteria is a little more complicated than you're suggesting.
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Brad, that article you shared has some glaring errors, imo:

quote:
And for those who are searching for the secret code of the Bible, the hidden message that has been buried and lost over the centuries, my message is do not lose heart. Your instincts are right, the message of Jesus has been lost in the catacombs of thousands of years of empty religion.
That's a rather extreme accusation, don't you think? Empty religion? That's all there is?

quote:
Jesus never intended his movement to be about cathedrals and robes and titles and power. He never intended to establish a religious version of the Roman Empire.
A silly straw-man point, as though that's all there is. Good heavens! Kind of a "cheap shot" at Roman Catholicism as well, it seems to me.

quote:
The secret message of the Bible is one of elegant simplicity:

+ We are created in the image and likeness of God.
+ We are the object of his passionate love and concern.
+ We have potential beyond our wildest imagination.
+ We were created to live in relationship with God.
+ We are spiritual beings and need God to be fully alive.
+ We are closer to God than we know.
All true, but it's a rather gross oversight to leave out how sin separates us from God, how Christ's death breaks the hold of sin, and how it is through faith and membership in the Church that we come to live as members of the mystical body of Christ. You don't have to read between the lines to pick up those points.

quote:
+ We have been lied to about what God demands of us.
I strongly disagree. Note that the author gives no specifics about this.

quote:
The secret that must be exposed is that God has come into human history in the person of Jesus Christ so that all of us might become the sons and daughters of God. We are all to be the holy grail.
That's not exactly a secret for Christians. Good heavens, it's right there in Romans 8.
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Also, Brad:

quote:
It is an ongoing mystery to me why, if there is a God, he or she remains so mysterious and seemingly distant. And, yes, I have picked my own brain to try to unravel this mystery. I have not so far.
God is not distant, but is closer to us than we are to ourselves. God's presence isn't something we'll discover by exercising our brains, however.

"Be still, and know that I am God."

Shhh. . . . Be still . . . Wink

quote:
But I do know that if there is ANY code that we can break it is the code of our own egos. Instead of trying to raise ourselves up (immortality?...oy vey), we need to think about lowering ourselves.
.

Yes indeed.
 
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That's a rather extreme accusation, don't you think? Empty religion? That's all there is?

I didn�t figure you�d agree with all of the article, Phil. But it was a short one so I posted the whole thing rather than just excerpt it. I like the author�s point about not making things too arcane. I think this relates directly to the topic at hand. Rightly or wrongly, I see all this �Forbidden Letters� stuff as more Da Vinci Code nonsense.

All true, but it's a rather gross oversight to leave out how sin separates us from God, how Christ's death breaks the hold of sin, and how it is through faith and membership in the Church that we come to live as members of the mystical body of Christ. You don't have to read between the lines to pick up those points.

I wonder if he was going for a more ecumenical scope. I took a look at a couple of McManus� books at Amazon.com. From the reviews, I like what seems to be his overall approach.

That's not exactly a secret for Christians. Good heavens, it's right there in Romans 8.

Well, I certainly think that McManus is of the opinion that organized religion has often obscured things. But two themes intertwine in this article: the supposed sins of organized religion and the specious �facts� of the Da Vinci Code. One could say that he was bouncing the �The secret that must be exposed is that God has come into human history� statement off of the Da Vinci Coders who look for smaller and smaller nuggets of truth while overlooking possibly some larger ones that are staring them in the face.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
God is not distant, but is closer to us than we are to ourselves. God's presence isn't something we'll discover by exercising our brains, however.

"Be still, and know that I am God."

Shhh. . . . Be still . . .
Good advice.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Brad:
[qb] That's a rather extreme accusation, don't you think? Empty religion? That's all there is?

I didn�t figure you�d agree with all of the article, Phil. But it was a short one so I posted the whole thing rather than just excerpt it. I like the author�s point about not making things too arcane. I think this relates directly to the topic at hand. Rightly or wrongly, I see all this �Forbidden Letters� stuff as more Da Vinci Code nonsense. . . [/qb]
I agree with that point, for sure. But the article also seems to water down some aspects of the biblical message and has a couple of indirect slams against Catholicism.

I'll open another thread on "organized religion" and we can go over the pros and cons there. Maybe that'll become a sort of resource thread we can point to whenever the topic comes up, as it does so often, it seems.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by w.c.:
[qb] "Well, here is your summary: God is in you. In your microcosmic 'tissue'. Alchemy is the goal of evolution and about deification. How that works is described in the Letters. The key to that process is a microcosmic stone (nobody understands that without a doubt). A living stone. It ignites a sub-atomic fire (rebirth through fire). That is the summary, and it is in the Letters wherever you look. Dead is dead. You need a living Tree of Life (spine and brain) to be resurrected (religion is myth misunderstood). There is no after-life-life."


_______________________________________


It would be good to hear how this is fundamentally different than Taoist alchemy, or even western alchemy, both of which I'm familiar with, and having practiced the former for over ten years leading to a substantial kundalini awakening via forgiveness work. . . [/qb]
Thanks for that sharing, w.c. It certainly lends credibility to your points.

My hunch is that alchemical, gnostic, and other occult systems really are onto something, but it's a "dead horse." After all, the spiritual soul IS immortal, and traditional Jewish and Christian teaching holds that this immortality was meant to somehow include the body as well. So what seems likely is that the chakras, nadis, spiritual archetypes -- a mystical physiology, of sorts -- gives evidence of a profound integreation between the spiritual and physical. It also seems likely that what we've been calling kundalini is an energy/process that enabled this integration, "spiritualizing" the body, if you will. This process and its mystical physiology are still with us, but because of the Fall, the disorder in human nature is too severe to allow for any kind of successfual realization of the embodied immortality available to our spiritual forebears (aka Adam and Eve). Even in the best of cases, the best we can do is embody some kind of Ego-Self connection, and that only tenuously (see Ego and Self thread). So the charting of this physiology and the effort to fire it up again is really akin to a "Tower of Babel" dynamic -- of the Ego striving to elevate itself to the heights of consciousness.

The alternative posed by orthodox Christianity is incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ, which embodies Jesus' risen life on earth. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, our mystical phsyiology becomes integrated with the sacred humanity of Christ -- especially through the Eucharist -- and we live by the life of his Body, not our own. The spiritual soul thus realizes again its destiny for immortality in a body . . . a risen body like that of Christ's.

It wasn't because of ignorance of the esoteric meaning of Scripture that the early Church condemned gnostic sects, but because She had found something much better in what Christ actually revealed. Smiler
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Freebird:
[qb] Spiritual alchemy is also the pursuit of kundalini awakening, integration and transformation. Alchemists have tried for centuries to perfect and accomplish "The great work" in their pursuit of the desired philosophers stone.

The homosexual man who claims to have succeeded in making himself immortal, what can I say, except to offer him my congratulations. Of course, God's fire is important. He is the consuming fire in the destruction of the old and the birthing of the new. Hopefully, the man will share all of his secrets with other alchemists so that they can accomplish same immortality like him. It certainly would be a loving gift to all.

For myself, I put my trust in God to accomplish His will and love in furthering my new birth, and also His working in and through all children.

As you mention Ray, God is in all of us, including the kundalini energy. I again mention the great dangers associated with the pursuit and meddling ourselves with God's energies and mixing same in the accomplishment and success of spiritual alchemy.

Medical science is still so unaware of the workings, and are lacking in spiritual knowledge, of God's transforming graces within our bodies. This is unfortunate.

Before God's gift of a new birth, having died to this life, a large amount of radiation was found within my body which medical science was unable to explain. Radiation is light and I believe before birthing the light, it was forming within the darkness of myself coming alive within God's seed, as promised.

Yes, I see your point as to the spine and brain in attaining the tree of life which needs the water of life, together with the Holy Spirit, all gifts and graces of God.

The most important thing for all of us is to know God is love living in our hearts. Both creative energies belong to Him, the red and the white. Christ is our hope and glory. [/qb]
Thanks Freebird for your truelly beautifull post. But still you didn't read the letters very well (They are difficult.) The Stone is Gods grace if we follow the letters (and if they are true.
The process of the Work of the Sun is lead by 'God'. 'Whatever the Grail starts, the Grail will finish', the Paris 4 say.
And my intuition tells me that no matter how terrible and violent that resurrection and The Night of the Soul are (the dark and dangerous way to life in the Bible), you will succeed.

The Letters also say 'you can't invite yourself to the Grail'. I trust that statement fully. By instinct.

And again, the Alchemists of the Past weren't the alchemists. They either thought the Gold was the chemical gold we know, or they had deeper understanding of alchemy, but not to deep enough to understand it really. The fact alone that they thought the stone is prodcued in the end where it is the staring point of all.

Greetings,

Ray.
 
Posts: 22 | Registered: 16 May 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil:
[qb]
quote:

And orthodoxy: it were humans who formed orthodoxy. This (bible)book in, that (bible)book out (Nicea).
No, that's not true. The canon of the New Testament, especially the four Gospels, was pretty well set by the middle of the second century. That's not even controversial. And the criteria is a little more complicated than you're suggesting. [/qb]
Phil, the way you were lied at. The Canon of the Gospel set by the middle of the second cenury.. Go do your homework!
 
Posts: 22 | Registered: 16 May 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Rayray:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Phil:
[qb]
quote:

And orthodoxy: it were humans who formed orthodoxy. This (bible)book in, that (bible)book out (Nicea).
No, that's not true. The canon of the New Testament, especially the four Gospels, was pretty well set by the middle of the second century. That's not even controversial. And the criteria is a little more complicated than you're suggesting. [/qb]
Phil, the way you were lied at. The Canon of the Gospel set by the middle of the second century.. Go do your homework! [/qb]
 
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No, that's not true. The canon of the New Testament, especially the four Gospels, was pretty well set by the middle of the second century. That's not even controversial. And the criteria is a little more complicated than you're suggesting.
Phil, that is not controversial in orhodox circels who are reluctant to check history. Here comes something of that history:

quote:
The canonization of the New Testament
Main article: Biblical canon
The process of canonization was complex and lengthy. It was characterized by a compilation of books that early Christians found inspiring in worship and teaching, relevant to the historical situations in which they lived, and consonant with the Hebrew Testament (early Christian communities were primarily Jewish). In this way the books considered authoritative revelation of the New Covenant were not hammered out in large, bureaucratic Church council meetings, but in the secret worship sessions of lower-class peasant Christians. While an episcopal hierarchy did develop and finally solidify the canon, this was a relatively late development.

In the first three centuries of the Christian Church, there was no New Testament canon that was universally recognized. Nevertheless, by the 2nd century, there was a common collection of letters and gospels that a majority of church leaders considered authoritative. These contained the four gospels and many of the letters of Paul. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian (all 2nd century) held these to be on par with the Hebrew Scriptures as being divinely inspired. Other books were held in high esteem but were gradually relegated to the status of New Testament Apocrypha.

One of the earliest attempts at solidifying a canon was made by Marcion, who rejected the entire Old Testament, all but one gospel (Luke), and three of the Pauline letters. His unorthodox canon was rejected by a majority of Christians, as was he and his theology, Marcionism. Adolf Harnack in Origin of the New Testament (1914)[10] argued that the orthodox Church at this time was largely an Old Testament Church (one that "follows the Testament of the Creator-God") without a New Testament canon and that it gradually formulated its New Testament canon in response to the challenge posed by Marcion. Around 200 the Muratorian fragment was written, listing the accepted works. This list was very similar to the modern canon but also included the Wisdom of Solomon (now part of the Deuterocanonical books) and the Apocalypse of Peter. The New Testament canon as it is now was first listed by St. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in 367, in a letter written to his churches in Egypt. That canon gained wider and wider recognition until it was accepted by all at the Third Council of Carthage in 397. Even this council did not settle the matter, however. Certain books continued to be questioned, especially James and Revelation. Even as late as the 16th century, theologian and reformer Martin Luther questioned (but in the end did not reject) the Epistle of James, the Epistle of Jude, the Epistle to the Hebrews and the Book of Revelation. Even today, German-language Luther Bibles are printed with these four books at the end of the canon, rather than their traditional order for other Christians. Due to the fact that some of the recognized Books of the Holy Scripture were having their canonicity questioned by Protestants in the 16th century, the Council of Trent reaffirmed the traditional canon of the Scripture as a dogma of the Catholic Church.
Taken form http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament

Greetings.
 
Posts: 22 | Registered: 16 May 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Phil, your trust the Bible, I get from your posts. But the truth is, no human author has so many absurdities and contradictions and silly language (the greek of the New Testament is that of a 7 year old, said Professor Man)in his book than the author of the Bible: God. Here are some examples taken form a post on another Forum.

And now be honest Phil, if only a small portion of these absurdities were found in the Koran, or the Baghavadgita, then that would be for you a reason to say to yourself: who can trust a book that has these contradictions? But now it's the Bible you don't.

quote:
(...)but you do trust the Bible. In spite of the fact that it is full of contradictions. Here are some examples.

Monotheism is stressed again and again, but polytheism keeps popping up. You may say: that is the Jew falling back in his polytheism (ugarit/egypt), but it is 'God' who says in Genesis ' In the beginning the Gods created...(plural)' And not God explaining how difficult it was for Jews to abandon their polytheism. here we go.

First about montheism/polytheism. Then some contradictions, then some cruelties that clash to much with the love God of Jesus (in my opinion).

82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

The Gods?

82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand of the wicked.
82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

This Psalm In combination with Genesis.

At least two Creation stories appear in the Bible, and they disagree. The first is in Genesis 1:1 to 2:3, the second in the remainder of Chapter 2.
In the first version, God (in the oldest manuscripts the word Elohim, the Gods, plural!, is used) created men & women on the same day (1:27). subsequent to the creation of all animals (1:25). In the second version, God (Jehovah) created Adam first (2:7). then animals & birds (2:19). then Eve (2:22). In the first version. trees appeared before man (1:11): in the second. the world was barren of vegetation at the time of man's creation (2:5). and plantlife was created later (2:8-9).
Compare these with Genesis 5:1-2, a third creation story, which strongly suggests the simultaneous creation of man & woman. It states that at the time of the creation of men and women. God blessed them and called them "man" (in the Hebrew text, adam).
Most translators and Bible scholars candidly admit the differences in the Creation stories. and call the first two the Priestly and the Yahwehist versions. (In particular, see the New American Bible and its fine commentary.) The versions differ strongly in texture and language as #ell as content. ln some translations, however, verb tenses are subtly altered to conceal the problems.
(This item is clearest in the New International Bible and the Revised KJ Bible.)

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Leviticus 3:17, 11:1-47 God gave many rules about what may be eaten or handled.
Colossians 2:21-22 Such rules come from man, not God.
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Numbers 23:19; I Samuel 15:29 God does not repent.
Genesis 6:6; Exodus 32:14: I Samuel 15:11.35: Psalms 42:10: Jonah 3:10 God does repent.
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Deuteronomy 6:5: Matthew 22:37 We must love God.
Deuteronomy 6:13: I Peter 2:17 We must fear God.
I John 4:18 Perfect love cannot be mingled with fear.
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Who inscribed the Ten Commandments on the second set of stone tablets?
Deuteronomy 10:1-2.4 God inscribed them.
Exodus 34:27-28 God dictated whiie Moses inscribed them.
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Judges 4:21 Jael killed Sisera by driving a tent stake through his head while he slept, fastening his head to the ground.
Judges 5:26-27 When Jael killed Sisera. he sank to the ground at her feet. and died.
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How did King Saul die?
I Samuel 31:4-6: I Chronicles 10:4-5 He committed suicide. II Samuel 1:8-10 An Amalekite slew him.
II Samuel 21:12 The Philistines slew him.
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I Samuel 17:23.50-51 David slew the Philistine, Goliath of Gath.
II Samuel 21:19 Elhanan son of Jair slew Goliath of Gath. Note: In the standard KJ translation, the story is altered in the second instance, so that Elhanan slays the cousin of Goliath; the prevarication is disclosed by the italics in most editions. The contradiction stands in the source texts. See any good Bible commentary.
(Clearest in the Revised KJ versionSmiler
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Psalms 104:5 (KJ version); Ecclesiastes 1:4 The Earth will last forever.
II Peter 3:10; Hebrews 1:10-11 The Earth will perish.
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Job 7:9: Ecclesiastes 9:5 The dead will never rise again. They will have no further reward.
John 5:28-29: I Corinthians 15:16,52 The dead will rise again to be rewarded or punished.
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John 1:18, 6:46: I John 4:12 No one has ever seen God.
Exodus 33:11 God says no man will ever see His face and live. But ... the Lord appeared to Abraham
(Gen 18:1#. Jacob saw God face-to-face (Gen 32:30). Moses and the Elders gazed upon God (Exodus 24:9-11). God spoke to Moses face-to-face (Exodus 33:11: Deut 34:10). God allowed Moses to see his "back parts" (Exodus 33:22-23). Isaiah saw God in a vision (Isaiah 6:1,5). Ezekiel also saw God in a vision and described Him in some detail (Ezekiel 1:27-28). Amos saw God (Amos 7:7).
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John 3:13 Jesus said that no man but himself has ever ascended to heaven.
II Kings 2:11 Elijah ascended to heaven in a whirlwind.
Genesis 5:24: Hebrews 11:5 Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven.
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Mark 6:8 Jesus instructed his disciples to wear sandals and take a staff on their journey.
Matthew 10:9 Jesus instructed them not to take a staff, not to wear sandals.
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Matthew 11:12,14. 17:12-13 Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah.
John 1:21 John the Baptist maintained that he was not Elijah. See also Malachi 4:5. which predicts that Elijah must return before the final days of the world. And see Mark 9:13, where Jesus insists that Elijah has, indeed. returned.
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John 13:34-35 Jesus commanded us to love one another: in this #ay. all men will recognize his disciples.
Luke 14:26 You cannot be a disciple of Jesus unless you hate your father and mother, your siblings, your children. your wife.
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Matthew 27:3-8 Judas returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests, then hanged himself. The priests used the silver to establish a graveyard.
Acts 1:16-18 Judas purchased land with the silver, and subsequently died in a fall.
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John 12:3#-40 # Isaiah 6:10 God causes people not to believe the truth in order to prevent them from being "healed".
II Thessalonians 2:11-12 God sends strong delusions on certain people in order to make them believe false things and be damned.
Romans 9:18 (& subsequent verses) More of the same. Salvation is a matter of God's whim: people have no choice or control or responsibility in the matter.
I Timothy 2:4 Contrary to all this, God "desires all men to be saved" and to have the truth!
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Genesis 17:3.8 God gave the whole land of Canaan to Abraham and his descendants, to inhabit forever. (See also: Gen 13:15, Ex 32:13.) Canaan was the land west of the Jordan and the Dead Sea, between those waters and the Mediterranean. the general region later called Palestine. As a matter of history. the Jews did not receive all of Canaan for an everiasting possession. Revolts of the Jews against Rome in 132-135 AD led to their dispersal throughout the world. For eighteen centuries, Turkish, Persian and Arabic peoples occupied Palestine. The Jews began to return in significant numbers only in 1921, shortly before the creation of the modern state of Israel in 1948.
See Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13, which candidly admit that God's promise or prophecy, in this case. failed.
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Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus predicted his Return within the lifetime of some of his listeners. He will be accompanied by his angels, he said, and will "reward each man according to his works" (KJ version).
Matthew 24:3-35; Mark 13:24-30; Luke 21:27-32 Jesus's extensive and detailed description of the end of the world, and of his second coming. All will occur before the present generation passed away. (Some apologists have defended these passages with the observation that the word "generation" may also be translated as "race". But God had promised Abraham that the Jewish race would possess Palestine forever, so such an interpretation would simply render the passages meaningless.)
John 5:25 Very specific statement by Jesus that the "hour has now come" when the dead will #hear the voice of the Son of God" and "those who hear will live."
John 21:20-23 A suggestion by Jesus. after the Resurrection, that he would "return" during the lifetime of at least one of his disciples. Note that the anonymous author or scribe of the Book of John recognized the ostensible failure of this prophecy, and attempted to explain it in the subsequent verses. I Thessalonians 4:15-17 Another statement, by Paul, that Jesus's return would occur within the lifetime of some of his contemporaries.
I Peter 4:7: I Corinthians 7:29-31: Hebrews 10:37 Further statements that Jesus's second coming was imminent. Paul even advised people not to make plans for the future.
I John 2:18 John was even more specific than Paul. The final hour was at hand, and various Antichrists had already appeared on the earth. See also: Matthew 23:25: Hebrews 1:2. 9:26: I Timothy 6:13-14: I Peter 1:20: Revelations 22:20. All these passages imply that the apocalypse was very close, not in some mystical sense, but in human terms.
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Isaiah 23:17-18 Revenue from prostitution will be used to provide abundant food and fine clothes for those living in God's grace.
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Matthew 27:52-53 At the moment of Jesus's death, many of the Jewish saints or patriarchs rose from the dead. They waited in their tombs until after Jesus's resurrection, three days later, then came forth and wandered about Jerusalem. The resurrection of the Jewish saints is easily the most spectacular miracle in Jesus's career, yet one hears very little of it. Not a word of it appears in the other gospels!
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Exodus 21:17 God proclaimed that a child must be put to death if, in a moment of anger, he reviles either of his parents for any reason.
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Exodus 21:20-21 God also proclaimed that it is permissible for a man to beat a slave. as long as death does not occur immediately. The reason: "For the slave is the man's property."
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Leviticus 25:44-46 God authorized slavery.
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Further injunctions from Moses to the Israelites: Deuteronomy 13:6-10 A man must slay his daughter, wife, son or friend for a difference in religion.
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Deuteronomy 13:12-16 Whole cities must be destroyed. plundered and burned, the inhabitants all slaughtered, for the same reason.
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II Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha (protegee of Elijah) caused bears to tear children apart for laughing at his bald head.
David, the "favorite of God," lived by robbery and unprovoked massacre of neighboring tribes, slaughtering both men and women (I Sam 27:8-9), lied afterwards about the killings (I Sam 27:10-11), ordered the blind and lame of the city of Zion to be killed (II Sam 5:8), murdered prisoners of war (II Sam 8:2), maimed horses (II Sam 8:4), tortured and killed more prisoners of war (II Sam 12:31 & I Chron 20:3, KJ version). With his last breath, he betrayed an oath and advocated murder (I Kings 2:8-9).
I Kings 11:6. 15:3,5; Acts 13:22 David followed the Lord completely. All his deeds were right in the eyes of God. except for those regarding Uriah (a small matter of adultery, betrayal and a single murder: see II Sam 11). David was a man after God's heart.
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Psalms 137:9 This psalm proclaims happiness for those who dash Babylonian children against rocks.
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Jeremiah 19:9 God intentionally forces people into acts of cannabalism. The victims are innocent children.
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(KJ version onlySmiler
Exodus 32:14 God does evil.
Isaiah 45:7 God creates evil.
Jeremiah 26:3 God inflicts evil.
Amos 3:6 God causes evil.
Lamentations 3:38 Evil comes from the mouth of God.
Mark 4:11-12 Jesus deliberately spoke in parables in order to exclude some people from being converted and being forgiven their sins.
See also: John 12:39-40: Isaiah 6:10

Again, you trust a book that has those kind of contradictions? It is said by wise people that the Word of God is in the Bible, but not the whole Bible is the Word of God, and that the fundament to that Word is in the Sermon on the Mount.
P.S.

I'm leaving this Forum now. Busy as I am. And there are little questions I find worth while. All the best to you all.
 
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