==========

Ensoulment/embodiment
of Adam and Eve and
of Mary and Jesus,
and of all humanity
[and even beyond it]

==========

Hey, Phil:

I appreciate your statements about pre-existentialism; however, if we logically follow that some 15 billion years ago the universe came into existence, and that some 5 billion years ago our solar system was formed with its Earth-Moon twins, and that perhaps 5 million years ago the hominids (pre-humans) separated from the other primates, and that some 250,000 years Homo sapiens sapiens attained a level of genetic intricacies within its own species gene pool so as to reach reflexive consciousness (to use Teilhard de Chardin's term); incidentally, it is now thought that Homo sapiens sapiens might have been reduced to a small population of perhaps only several tens of thousands of persons around 50,000 to 30,000 years ago, narrowly escaping the near extinction of our own human species.

The earliest Biblical accounts of our first human parents in the stories of Adam and Eve assume mythological status, but appear to indicate that such a real person was apparently formed from the Earth ["adom", meaning 'earth' or 'dust', in the ancient semitic language around the Tigris & Euphrates rivers; reminding ourselves humbly that "from dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return"]. This first human Adam is also said to have been created "ex nihilo" ['from nothing'], as a spontaneous creation, just as other material and biological entities are similarly described in these earliest Biblical myths. The breath ['ruha', also meaning spirit] from God entered into Adam, who thus became a living soul. So, Adam was embodied instantly from the dust of the earth ["adom"] and also instantly ensouled by the breath/spirit ["ruha"] of God.

[In Palestina around 2 millennia ago: "ruha" in ancient Aramaic, Jesus's northern dialect around Nazareth, and "ruach" in ancient Hebrew, the southern dialect around Jerusalem; these two words meant both 'breath' and 'spirit'.]

The even more ancient Biblical writers [preceeding the lifetime of Jesus] were, of course, not aware of evolutionary processes [as we are today], so that they poetically made assumptions that the heavenly bodies and even the earthly bodies of various species were immediately created in some sequential order by God; neither were they aware of the lengthy eons of cosmologic and geologic and biologic times, nor of how primitive forms of life [pre-cellular, cellular, multicellular] cascaded into the various biomes of our Earth: about 3.5 billion years ago, early cellular life forms (amino acids, beginnings of RNA/DNA); some 1.5 billion years ago, multi-cellular life forms (DNA/RNA based, differentiating into simple bacterias, fungi, plants, animals in the oceans and seas and rivers); also around 550-450 million years ago, more highly evolved plants and animals slowly began propagating in their billions of species in their respective niches upon the lands of the Earth; about 450 million years ago, some fishes with vertebrae and bony fins, later to develop into backboned/legged/armed land animals, mammals, hominids, humans. Just a brief schema described by few words here.

As more knowledge is gained, so too do our evolutionary models become more complicated: I refer you to several kinds of such models, incorporating [literally making bodies through many kinds of species, great chains of being from simpler to more complicated species] and thus neuronizing and finally spiritualizing matter, until the modern species of Homo spaiens sapiens comes into existence:

The Four Kingdoms -- Mineral, Vegetable, Animal, Human:
http://www.kheper.net/topics/g...g/four_kingdoms.html

Numerous scientific and theological models therefore are continuously being considered and simultaneously coming into being themselves ... such as this metaphysical theory of everything [to which I do not personally subscribe, but nevertheless find interesting]:

http://www.kheper.net/theoryof...ything/overview.html

http://www.kheper.net/theoryofeverything/index.html

Certainly, other numerously more attempts at such model building will undoubtedly ensue, as material/spiritual realities are pondered more profoundly; even our contemporary models, however, would only be mere infant reflections of how God actually created, is creating, and will continue to create our universe [body and soul]. But such is our human process of learning and of believing.

Back to the instant [not evolutionary] creation of our first human parents, Adam & Eve: a Biblical myth, trying to explain what had happened even before writing was invented, kept probably as oral traditions for centuries and perhaps even longer. This verily presents a static, rather than a dynamic, depiction of embodiment and of ensoulment.

Next fast forward [actually for us, flash back] around two millenia ago, to Palestina when first Mary [the Immaculate Conception] and then Jesus [the Incarnation of the Human-God] were conceived and were born into their earthly existences.

If we are to seriously consider Adam & Eve's fall from pristine grace into original sin [as actual events and as symbolic occurrences], then we need also to consider the restoration from sin back to grace, through Mary and Jesus; indeed, human life was initially intended not just as mortal but also as eternal -- if Adam/Eve had not sinned, then their destinies could have been assumptions/resurrections from this earthy/material dimension [created by God] directly into the heavenly/spiritual dimension [becoming and being body and soul, fully intact and never separated, with God].

However, the very fall from grace into sin by Eve first and then by Adam implies some kind of material/spiritual restoration, precisely by the embodiment and ensoulment of Mary first and then of Jesus; this seems to indicate, especially because of the Old Testament prophecies, the pre-ensoulments of Mary and of Jesus, that their spiritual selves were not only present somehow but also necessary in God's plan of salvation and redemption for all humanity.

This position pertaining to pre-ensoulments and pre-embodiments might even be uniquely supported in the New Testament prophecies, specifically by the announcements of the angel Gabriel -- to Zacharias about the immanent birth of his son John, and to Mary about the immanent birth of her son Jesus; apparently the souls of John and of Jesus, as particularly named by Gabriel even before their respective conceptions, pre-existed their actual embodiments, within the wombs of the elderly Elizabeth and of the youthful Mary.

We cannot fathom the enormous mysteries of material/spiritual existence, on this our Earth and now even beyond it into space, and onward to Heaven and into eternity.

Science and religion, though interconnected partially now and completely in the end [ontologically], each have their particular and specific limitations; however, as embodied/ensouled human beings we continuously push the envelope, hopefully to attain greater understandings with our minds, deeper feelings with our hearts, and higher sensings with our souls.

Amazingly, just as we are discovering more completely our mutually shared humanity, in terms of our place in this immense universe [in our puny Milky Way galaxy and in our even tinier solar system, and on the even more limited surface of the lands of Earth] -- and in terms of our biological composition [in our chromosomes and DNA/RNA, similar in many ways genetically with millions of other "lower" species] -- and in terms of our societies/religions [in our various laws/beliefs and practices/rituals, partaining not only to ethical/moral and social/spiritual issues] -- we reach that point whereby to review our past, live our prsent, and ponder our future -- we are wondering, as St. Paul says, that somehow we shall become [as individual human beings] more like Jesus Christ, especially in his risen form some day, but how that will come about we presently do not know.

Like Jesus before us, we too shall rise someday, body and soul, in the resurrection.

Indeed, it might even be possible that, as we evolve in our commonly-held humanity, we may be called even to direct our own material/spiritual evolution, perhaps even beyond the confines of the surface of our Earth as well as beyond the confines of the embodiment/ensoulment of our very own human species, and again what and who we shall become we will not know.

[We can rather easily imagine in our minds what our pre-human primitive ancestors might have been like, but can we likewise have the forethought to anticipate what our post-human advancing progeny could be? Some sorts of Homo sapiens spiritualis.]

Reason and faith, ultimately too are not just interconnected but also fused together, as humanity seeks to more profoundly fathom these, our material/spiritual realities -- which initially were created from God and ultimately will return back to God.

--- Sal


==========

I followed your reflection and find it good and solid, Sal, except when you propose a possible relationship between the prophecies of Jesus' and John's births and pre-embodiment. I think you're reaching a bit, here, in that these prophecies can also be explained and understood without resorting to pre-ensoulment.

Reason and faith, ultimately too are not just interconnected but also fused together, as humanity seeks to more profoundly fathom these, our material/spiritual realities -- which initially were created from God and ultimately will return back to God.

Yes indeed!

How did you come to have such a deep interest in this topic, Sal?

==========

My dreams ...

==========

Hey, Phil and others too:

My interests in these topics stem from dreams that I had during the mid-1990s, not long after my younger brother died from AIDS in June 1994, after more than two years of increasing health problems [no known risk factors, except for extensive dental surgery in the early 1980s]; he and I were close in age [about 18 months apart], having gone to the same Catholic grammar and public high schools and having many mutual friends in common, as we were growing up; I still miss him tremendously.

My youngest brother & his wife have two teenage children in high school, and our much younger sister & her husband have two kids in first & third grade grammar school.

Although I'm not married and have been single even up til now, since the 1980s I have been and still remain extremely interested in genealogy [as my younger deceased brother also was, prior to his passing away]. My married sublings and my parents and relatives do enjoy my researches into our family histories, and on some ancestral lines I have been able to find primary source documentations going back to about 1650 [in Sicily].

Now about the dreams ...

About a year or so after my younger brother died, I would have dreams of our childhood with my family & friends; quite nostalgic, I guess. Then, some dreams of him, saying that he would help me in my life whenever I really needed it; I had been praying for his soul, thinking that he was probably in purgatory and needed some assistance in order to get to heaven.

[Actually, I'm employed as a medical social worker; and for 7 years prior to my brother's AIDS diagnosis, I had prayed daily for persons with AIDS, having occasionally done some casework with AIDS patients during the 1980s-1990s. So, even before my brother became very ill, I had already been praying for him (and others like him), for many years, without really knowing it.]

After my dreams with my brother subsided but even now are not entirely gone, I started having increasingly vivid dreams [repeatedly for several years, during the mid-1990s] about swimming in a shallow sea (I can't swim at all) and entering a darkened cave in the sea, whose walls are totally covered with amniotic sacks (inside are human embryoes growing) that sometimes flicker with soft light; then, as these dreams became more vivid, with greater visual details and with religious hymns being sung softly by angelic voices, a few of the growing embroes would somehow communicate to me [or perhaps to my soul], as I am swimming inside this undersea cave: "Daddy, when will I/we be born?" I usually woke up at that point, sometimes in a cold sweat.

So, I guess that's why I'm so interested in these topics of embodiments/ensoulments as connected to the Mystical Body/Spirit of Christ.

I like kids, especially my brother's and sister's children; I'm not married, being still single, and sometimes I wonder why I keep having dreams like those described above, although much less frequently nowadays.

Any thoughts/feelings about what I have just expressed above?
--- Sal


==========

Ah . . . another holy bachelor at Shalom Place! I've a growing suspicion that many of those lurking guests I see listed on the forum index page are women scoping out the joint for such. Beware!

- - -

Thank you for sharing this background, Sal. Fascinating! And so sorry to hear of the loss of your brother. I can certainly believe that he appeared to you in a dream and does indeed assist you in your life. This, as you know, is part of our Catholic understanding of the meaning of "Communion of Saints."

Some of the dream symbolism you share -- underwater, caves -- is pretty typical of how the unconscious represents itself. Interpretations could explore some of the archetypal meaning, as well as personal, such as undeveloped gifts and talents being represented by the beings in the amniotic cases. Your personal associations matter most in dream interpretation.

But here's the deal -- even assuming that you have strong and steadfast associations with some of these meanings indicating pre-ensouled beings awaiting birth, your dreams and your interpretations would be considered as "private revelation" in terms of how they should be regarded in the Church. As you know, there are all kinds of revelations of this sort, and they must be held up against Scripture and Tradition to be evaluated. But the first meaning and application would be for you personally, so whatever you get out of them in your own life is what matters most.

==========


Hey, Phil:

You have offered and given quite a lot since August 2001, via over 3500 posts by you to the participants of this Shalom Place site.

May I ask you, Phil: What got you started in this endeavor, and what do you sense now as the major mission and objectives for it?

I have only had some chances to skim through a small portion of all the numerous posts (over 15,000!) in Shalom Place, but many of these are quite interesting and informative. So many concerns and interests are expressed about Roman Catholicism (the main focus?) as well as about Christianity in general and about other religious denominations/traditions and about contemporary spiritualities.

I suppose that there aren't many Internet sites, such as Shalom Place, and I am wishing well for all of its participants, especially in my prayers.
--- Sal


==========

Sal, this is part of my ministry with Heartland Center for Spirituality. I enjoy working with computer / internet stuff, and also enjoy teaching and discussion of these topics. The hope was to provide a resource area here on Christian spirituality; it's a "work in progress." The next step is to continue developing the premium groups; see the link at the top of each of these forum pages.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Online slideshow<br /><br />There once was a time when very few Christians believed in reincarnation, but things are different now. I continually encounter writers and spiritual directees very sympathetic with the idea of rebirth. They don't consider this to be the resurrection, but part of God's plan for their ongoing growth, and part of the way they work things out in special relationships through their various lives.<br /><br />Some of the factors that have influenced this openness to reincarnation are as follows:<br /><br />1. Our growing encounter with Eastern religions, most of whom accept reincarnation as a "given" in their way of understanding how things work.<br /><br />2. The growing number of psychics who offer their services (sometimes via phone or the Internet). Most seem to accept reincarnation.<br /><br />3. People reporting "past life experiences" through clinical hypnotic regressions, holotropic breathing, dreams, and even what is called "past life therapy." <br /><br />4. Near death experiences and out-of-body experiences have also been studied, and some have reported gaining information about themselves and past lives (and even future ones!!!) through such experiences. <br /><br />5. Dissatisfaction by many with the Church's unimaginative treatment of what happens when one dies. Views of the afterlife (even heaven) as somewhat boring and stagnant.<br /><br />6. Scholarly re-examination of the reasons why the Church once condemned reincarnation, and whether it could be philosophically and theologically tenable to accept the idea of rebirth without confusing it with the general resurrection on the last day.<br /><br />------------<br /><br />I've been caught in the middle of some of this for years, not wanting to impose my views upon spiritual directees, but feeling an obligation to say something when it seems to me that they're taking this much too seriously and that it's determining some of their decisions. <br /><br />But I'm open to listening and dialoguing, and invite others to share their ideas, opinions and even experiences relevant to this topic.<br /><br />What do you believe? Can a Christian believe in reincarnation? Why? Why not? What difference does it make?<br /><br />Phil

Phil I think that with Jesus one lifetime is enough and I think that "part" of what people are considering memory of their past lives is actually the memory of an ancestor's experience that is carried in their genetic memory.

love,

tuck

Hi Phil: just wondering if you have changed your
opinion on reincarnation & genetic memory any
from what you originally wrote. And are you
continuing to have those troubling dreams
or was there a point they stopped.

This thread was really helpful for me.

Thanks so much

Mary Sue, my dream life has been rather boring the past few years, and that's fine with me.

Re. "genetic memory," I checked up on this regarding past-life recall and there's not a lot you can find about it. Wikipedia has a note that has a mostly negative assessment of the prospect.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...%28parapsychology%29

Karl Rahner in his "Foundations of Christian Faith" remarked that reincarnation could be to some degree understood in the light of purgatory dogma.
I don't know if any theologians followed this line of thought, but the main idea of Asian reincarnation, as far as I know, was that of a retribution for whatever we did in our life, the law of cause-effect: karma. Another aspect was that it's a kind of purification, going through stages of growth until all is purified and the soul/consciousness is liberated from its carnal entanglements.

Of course, reincarnation isn't acceptable if we take the Thomist perspective on human nature which is the soul forming an organic body. The soul, according to St. Thomas, is designed to inform only a specific body, not different bodies, so if a soul were to live again from conception, it would form exactly the same organism. It's like a "program" that can't be changed.

But the purgatory dogma assumes that some causes must have their effects, according to universal, cosmic justice of being, so we have to experience in one way or another an impact of the evil we did to ourselves, others and to the universe. The idea of living another life, with suffering the consequences of this life, seems to me a good, but mythological expression of purgatory state, where we'll have to suffer at least some consequences of the evil we caused. Since we won't have imagination or other senses there, it's impossible to actually "relive" our karmic fate. But the purifying fire will cause similar effect on our intellect and will, as would be caused by living numerous lives in order to take the responsibility for our deeds.
Also, the idea of purification from attachments is present in the purgatory dogma - Pope Benedict pointed out in his "Spe salvi" that only very few people will be liberated in this life from disordered attachments of some kind to material things, and that purgatory will do the work of God's love in that area. So we'll be liberated from "the flesh" as separated souls, but only in order to be integrated again with our transformed bodies, without the original sin problems that troubled our body-soul relationship.
But those observations of mine certainly won't be accepted by anyone seriously believing in reincarnation, I guess... I try to see the hidden truth of this idea, while I don't accept it as a philosophical concept.

When I attended a Tibetan Buddhist seminar few years ago the teacher said that reincarnation is a hypothesis which has a practical meaning for spiritual life. The meaning is that if we meditate on a fact that we can exist in millions of different bodies, psyches, lives etc., we'll stop define ourselves in terms of this body, this personality, this life.
As you see, this understanding is completely contradictory with Christian philosophy and theology, since we are defined by our bodies and personalities. The anthropology here is totally different in Buddhism, where we are but a compound of different parts, without an essential, substantial unity.

I don't think that "recollections from past lives" are the main reason for accepting reincarnation as a possibility. I suppose it's an underlying, perhaps preconscious, understanding of our human nature, that encourages us to see our soul/consciousness as possibly totally separate from this particular body. The Church was often drawn into this direction, against the efforts of St. Thomas and his followers, so there's no wonder that today Christians are tempted to think of themselves as having a body (and a psyche) as something joined to their soul/consciousness/self only for the purpose of this short life.

All,

Methinks NO is a good answer. Methinks NO is the best answer. Methinks no IS the asnwer.

Of course it's a free country. Some Christians believe in Abortion Rights others don't -- believe quite the opposite.

Some Christians, scripture says, will say LORD, LORD we prophesied in your name etc etc..and He will say 'Out of My sight.. I never knew you.'

Ever read that? What might it mean?

Pop-pop

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pop-pop:
All,

Methinks NO is a good answer. Methinks NO is the best answer. Methinks no IS the asnwer.

Pop-pop,

Are there references in the bible that touch on this? I have family members who are into the New Age, it gets confusing. I suspect that I am still in spiritual diapers so to speak, needing to be weaned from milk... 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Do you have the gift of teaching? Is verse 27 (below) telling it straight on reincarnation? Or am I taking it out of context?


Hebrews 9 (vs:24-28)

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb. 9: 27 is usually quoted as a scriptural basis for refuting reincarnation, but I've read a few scripture scholars who point out that the over-arching context is more about judgment than about reincarnation.

I think this has probably been discussed on the thread, but to briefly recap: traditional Judaism and Christianity have never accepted reincarnation and have rejected anything that moves in that direction, including teachings by otherwise-respected early theologians like Origen. The primary reason is that the body is considered an integral aspect of who we are, and not some kind of bio-spacesuit that spiritual souls pick up and lay down in their journey to enlightenment. The resurrection of Jesus, including (especially!) his body, sheds light on this topic as well. For the early Church, Jesus cannot truly be risen unless his body is also risen; the resurrection accounts include references to the reality of his body -- the wounds, his eating with them, etc. It is a radically transformed body, however, and not merely a resuscitated corpse. So the whole idea of reincarnation, whether posed as metempsychosis or something else, was considered incompatible with the implications of Jesus' resurrection. Though body and soul are separated at death, the surviving soul continues in a state of metaphysical deficiency until it is finally reunited with the body at the final resurrection of the dead.

Of course, Judaism has the Kabbalah, and Christianity its gnostic sects, and these more occultist movements often do affirm reincarnation. This actually proves nothing except to demonstrate one of the reasons these groups are at odds with their more integral and orthodox counterparts.

I met a lady on the internet that lived in Australia, she healed people who had physical problems that were the result of past life experiences. I asked her to have a look at me because I was curious about whether she was real or not. She claimed that I was an old soul and that I had several problems and said what these problems were, after she healed them.

I had always had problems with my left shoulder joint and with my neck and "poof" these problems went away and never came back. She did this without me ever meeting her in person, she did this for free, and she did this from at least 4 to 5 thousand miles away (I live in Washington State and she lived in Australia).

If I hadn't experienced it I never would have believed it. Oh and she claimed that her healing was done through the Divine Mother and the Divine Father. To be honest I do not want to reincarnate. This life was not much fun and do not want another one to have to worry about. Taking a nap until Jesus comes back is just fine with me.

love,

tuck

quote:

Kabbalah,

Phil you asked about the center pillar and the four corner pillars. This concept comes from the Kabbalah.

It is ok to delete this post after you read it, it is off topic. But it was a question I didn't answer and you mentioned the Kabbalah, so I am sticking it here before I forget.

Just love,

tuck

quote:

Phil you asked about the center pillar and the four corner pillars.

I did? Don't recall doing so.

Interesting, about your healing. I've heard similar accounts before. Glad it worked out so well for you.

Gail,

Hi! Regarding New Age thought and having family members involved in it: I happened to catch a bit of witness and discussion of New Age issues that was aired on EWTN’s Women of Grace Show. The guest speaker was Sharon Lee Giganti (she has a website). She had held beliefs in reincarnation and other New Age theories of spirituality. She shared that she lost a friend to suicide and currently her brother is serving a term of life imprisonment – all of which stemmed from her and their beliefs in reincarnation and other NA teachings. She expressed deep remorse for her part in advising these loved ones. A former Miss California, and now author of a book on New Age Deceptions (title may be inaccurate) she now testifies against all this. The show was very interesting.

The scriptures you pointed out from Hebrews were on target as Phil too had explained. I most likely wouldn’t have found that one, so thanks.

My response would have been that reincarnation is a dramatic spiritual theory, and that Jesus always interested in us (to the point of sacrificial death) would certainly have made such a reality IF IT WERE true, known to us. Neither Christ in the Gospels, nor Peter, Paul, John, and James in the epistles, nor the OT, nor the ongoing Christian teachings (Catholic and Protestant) have accepted such misleading thought. This is influence from non-Christian religions and New Age teachers.

Christ clearly taught about the necessity of living this life with urgent attentiveness. Recall His teachings on the parable of the 10 virgins and making sure there is oil in our lamps, the parable about making sure we have a clean wedding garment, statements about If today you hear His voice, and Now is the acceptable time etc. Christ spoke about the need for serious conversion and repentance when grace is available so that our salvation will be realized. Acceptance of reincarnation leads, among other things probably, to the deception of complacency and putting off a response to Christ’s message for the next life or the one after that etc. This is clearly contrary to the spirit of the Gospel whether or not you can find the word reincarnation mentioned in the bible. Your reference in Hebrews is probably the closest in specificity.

As for Tuck’s healing via the Australian woman who healed people based on past life experiences (and for free!): – scripture clearly states that others will (not may) come along who will perform signs and wonders and that we should be on guard against accepting their beliefs as they will mislead many.

Scripture also says it is sinful and an abomination to the Lord to pursue the occult. Methinks Tuck may be becoming more of a Christian misfit than a Christian mystic as he claims. There’s nothing that evidences the mystic’s fervent devotion to Christ in a pursuing of the occult, nor in pumping/ posting even the possibility of the validity of reincarnation theory, nor in having kitchen converse with Lord Shiva and Babaloo. Maybe there was no healing even, just some delusion on Tuck’s part. Anyway, I wonder what St. Paul the Christian mystic would think about it all. Sparks!

Happy Easter
Pop-pop

Posted by Phil:
"Mary Sue, my dream life has been rather boring the past few years, and that's fine with me. Smiler"

Glad to hear this. I had hoped that this would happen.

I was not someone who believed in Past Lives.
However I have experienced things that could
be interpreted in this way. At this point I'm
leading towards this being part of a Kundalini
process for some people. These are not easy
experiences for me as there is usually something very very traumatic that is re-experienced. The memories are so real.

I was very frightened with no understanding of what was occurring. It was not things I have experienced in this life. The possibility of past lives was not something I was even willing to entertain at the time. However I am beginning to. Now I know to turn this over to the love and care of Jesus even when I have no understanding.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:

quote:

Phil you asked about the center pillar and the four corner pillars.

I did? Don't recall doing so.

Interesting, about your healing. I've heard similar accounts before. Glad it worked out so well for you.

ShashaPremium Membership

Posted 07 April 2011 10:10 PM Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by Tucker:
In my opinion as a yogi that has experienced the raising of the male and female kundalini, that the kundalini is not Christian and is not compatible with the Holy Spirit.

The center pillar though when the four corner pillars are set, based on my experience, is compatible with the Holy spirit.



Hi Tuck,

Thanks for your introductory post and comments.

You make a number of unusual statements, not that I'm saying you're wrong, just stuff I've not heard before.

What do you mean by the "center pillar," and "kundalini is not Christian"?

"And are you saying that Shiva is your teacher? Isn't THAT incompatible with being Christian? I had a most disastrous encounter with Siddha Yoga. And frankly, I'm one of those people who've experienced it as demonic thru it's connection with goddess/kali worship. I don't trust Shiva or any of his/her followers as I do believe they're connected to the anti-Christ, as all pagan gods whom Christians are forbidden to worship or associate with."

Sorry Phil, is was Shasha. My mistake.

love,

tuck

No problem, Tuck.

Mary Sue, I'm not sure what kind of experiences you're referring to, but I've heard others tell me that they're sure they experienced past lives -- that it was the same self looking out of those past memories as this one. Only problem is that sort of thing happens all the time in dreams as well -- there you are as another person in a dream, only you know it to really be yourself. The memory and imagination have a close relationship, the latter drawing from the former, most of the time.

quote:

As for Tuck’s healing via the Australian woman who healed people based on past life experiences (and for free!): – scripture clearly states that others will (not may) come along who will perform signs and wonders and that we should be on guard against accepting their beliefs as they will mislead many.

Pop, I'm not sure I can go along with this one. I think psychic healing can be more of a natural gift than an occult practice with some people, who seem to have a natural sensitivity to energy flows, heat, blocked spots and auras in/around the body-mind. They just "know" these things, just as others experience clairvoyance or psycho-kinetic powers without having cultivated them through occult practices.

As for Tuck's background, I remember him from years ago, and he's been around several blocks, all right. What I'm hearing these days is a re-focusing of his spiritual journey in Christ, and I suspect that his interactions here (including your good, honest feedback) are helping him to do just that.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Pop-pop---


...As for Tuck's background, I remember him from years ago, and he's been around several blocks, all right. What I'm hearing these days is a re-focusing of his spiritual journey in Christ, and I suspect that his interactions here (including your good, honest feedback) are helping him to do just that.

Pop-pop---While I agree with you about reincarnation, I was just feeling the temptation to throw a vegetable your way for how you ended your post to Tucker. Phil spoke to you in a much more moderate manner than I would have ("more a Christian misfit than a Christian mystic"--that's just unkind cleverness from you), so, you're safe. For now...

My aunt (she died) claimed to be a Christian Medium (psychic) she did spiritual readings for people, and she would tell wild stories how accurate her readings on people were. She quoted scripture and said Jesus was her source. I pointed out to her on numerous occasions what I read in the Old & New Testament:

1."When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead."

2. "For such persons are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

Then she had a nasty scary episode with her source (it wasn't the Jesus we know) which brought her to her senses after several years of this deception. That was long ago. Now a few family members and friends are mixing New Age with their Christian faith, and I am unsure how to respond... I will try to watch that program.

I am not proud to admit but I too wandered into some of the N.A. territory a few years ago. It was S.P. and Shasha's testimony that put the breaks on that via the Holy Spirit.

I love what you have to say here: " (If) reincarnation is a dramatic spiritual theory, and that Jesus always interested in us (to the point of sacrificial death) would certainly have made such a reality IF IT WERE true, known to us. Neither Christ in the Gospels, nor Peter, Paul, John, and James in the epistles, nor the OT, nor the ongoing Christian teachings (Catholic and Protestant) have accepted such misleading thought. This is influence from non-Christian religions and New Age teachers."

I thank God for his Mercy! No veggies, lol A.J.

How bout a thump on the head with a little verse taken out of context:
Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. Not saying you were unmerciful to Tuck, only the Lord see's your heart, but ouch...

Scripture also says it is sinful and an abomination to the Lord to pursue the occult. Methinks Tuck may be becoming more of a Christian misfit than a Christian mystic as he claims. There’s nothing that evidences the mystic’s fervent devotion to Christ in a pursuing of the occult, nor in pumping/ posting even the possibility of the validity of reincarnation theory, nor in having kitchen converse with Lord Shiva and Babaloo. Maybe there was no healing even, just some delusion on Tuck’s part. Anyway, I wonder what St. Paul the Christian mystic would think about it all. Sparks!


Thank you pop pop for your input This message board is for discussing the things that one is dealing with as a Christian. Your innuendo and character assassination "is" a gift to the healing process and much appreciated.

love,

tuck

Personally I do not think that Christians can or need to believe in reincarnation even if it might be real. Reincarnation is for working out your past karma, with Jesus once one confesses their sins, there is not any past karma. From there it is just this life and what you do with it, and the past no longer matters.

love,

tuck

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tucker:

Thank you pop pop for your input. This message board is for discussing the things that one is dealing with as a Christian. Your innuendo and character assassination "is" a gift to the healing process and much appreciated.

Tuck,

Your humble words, attitude, teachable heart here brings tears to my eyes... So, it was a merciful word from pop-pop... Oh dear...