Speaking of spirituality, this is the prayer I wish I could honestly fulfill:

To be free of the need of self-aggrandizement; to be free of the shame. Oh, that would be pure blissful freedom!

To be free of the need for approval. To be free of the control of ever-present guilt. Oh, that would be pure serene liberty!

To be free of the need to control. To be free of that underlying fear that permeates my relationship to all things. Oh, that would surely be divine salvation!

I just have to amen this. What a humble prayer. It made me think of a couple of Psalms..hope you don't mind:

Psa 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Contrary to what it sounds like, a broken and contrite heart or spirit is one that is free.

Blessings,
Terri

� I've noticed if one does "accept these truths of life," one is most likely to be considered apathetic.

Boy, doesn�t that just get right to the heart of spirituality, that there might be other things of value that one has to be taken into account when judging the big picture.

Something that�s been in the back of my mind is a "letting go" or abandonment of sorts. It�s perhaps one step on a longer journey, but this letting-go step is about trying to abandon (or at least notice) some of the expectations, habits and what not that have been placed on me by others and myself and that I have, knowingly or otherwise, accepted. It�s about peeling away a few layers of that false self to get to a truer one. And it surely feels that if I were to do that that there would be nothing that would cushion the fall, that there would be nothing waiting for me but idleness, drifting and, as has already been accused, apathy.

�but for some reason people like to see us "break" and lash out because it makes them feel more justified in their own breaking or lashing out.

I like your instincts for I think that is exactly what happens. If three rats are on a hamster wheel and one questions why all this running around in circles, the other two, who have devoted their lives to running around in circles, will tend to try to keep that third rat conforming for conforming�s sake. They�ll try to make that rat justify "why" instead of holding "why not" as a possibly equally valid starting point. Life seems to find various excuses and opportunities to make us justify our "why not" position over and over again at every turn. There is always pressure to conform. And I�ll flatly state that at good 80% of the time that conformity is a good and reasonable thing. Let�s all leave the women�s public toilets for the women and the men�s toilets for the men. What chaos and inconvenience if would be if most people didn�t conform to some basic conventions. And yet, the journey of our lives at some point is about breaking with conformity because, whereas that conformity might have been a benefit to us at one time, it eventually becomes a hindrance to our growth. And I think that one can best determine when to break free and by how much from a spiritual or religious perspective. That�s just a hunch, though.

And now I feel I�m sort of reaching a stage where I need to let go of "letting go". Being too earnest and focused on change is definitely not a good thing, in my opinion. Speaking of my previous diatribe, cultivating generosity may be the best antidote to that which ails us.

And it surely feels that if I were to do that that there would be nothing that would cushion the fall, that there would be nothing waiting for me but idleness, drifting and, as has already been accused, apathy.

I think that's a real fear that we all face when we start peeling away the layers of the onion. We're either comfortable or uncomfortable in the process of this peeling away, but at least, we think, there is "something" there. The truth though, at least to me, is that the "nothing" we fear doesn't really ever materialize because the peeling away replaces itself..kinda like cells regenerating or something. We make discoveries along the way, and the end result isn't the "nothing" we feared (nor the apathy that is accused), but is rather a greater "something" from the accumulation of "newness" along the way. I hope that made sense..lol.

And I think that one can best determine when to break free and by how much from a spiritual or religious perspective. That�s just a hunch, though.

I would agree with that hunch. It seems to me that the core of who we are, the "inner" us, IS the spiritual or religious waiting to be drawn upon.

Speaking of my previous diatribe, cultivating generosity may be the best antidote to that which ails us.

I would say that is correct. There's truth to an old adage that if we focus on someone else's needs, our own seems to be fulfilled as well. Or more plainly put...there's always someone else that's worse off than you are, so look for ways to help them, and you'll both benefit from it.

Blessings,
Terri

Brad, much of what you're describing in your last few posts is how I understand the experience that theology calls Original Sin. Emotionally, it resides within us as fear, shame and resentment, which are the three major poisons of the soul. We might experience this source of the problem to be existence itself -- so pervasive is it! -- but that's not completely accurate. The problem is non-love, or conditional love -- even anti-love. That's where our wounding comes from, and in some families, the wounding is much deeper than others.

If that is the cause of the wound, then what follows is that its reversal is the perception of unconditional love. Other people can give us a taste of this, but only God can satisfy that hunger and heal the wounds caused by our deprivation. The good news, here, is that this does, in fact, happen -- healing and all! It can take a lot of work, however -- including therapy, journaling, prayer, spiritual direction, etc. We can taste the peace and joy of this new life all along the way.

I hope your prayer gets answered, Brad, and that you will do what is necessary for this noble wish to come true.

The truth though, at least to me, is that the "nothing" we fear doesn't really ever materialize because the peeling away replaces itself..kinda like cells regenerating or something. We make discoveries along the way, and the end result isn't the "nothing" we feared (nor the apathy that is accused), but is rather a greater "something" from the accumulation of "newness" along the way. I hope that made sense..lol.

I thought that was actually a beautiful description of it. Maybe the onion analogy should be replaced with one more apt, such as the removal of heavy iron chains one by one.

I hope your prayer gets answered�

Your good wishes in particular mean much. No completely logical or coherent set of thoughts can tell you where I am now or where I might be going. But perhaps the words of Lewis Carroll can best express what I can not:

Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.

If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.

I have had prayers answered - most strangely so sometimes - but I think our heavenly Father's loving-kindness has been even more evident in what He has refused me.

Everything's got a moral, if only you can find it.

Begin at the beginning and go on till you come to the end; then stop.

Maybe the onion analogy should be replaced with one more apt, such as the removal of heavy iron chains one by one.

Oh...that is much better. I like it. It brings to mind a conversion experience of a late friend of mine. He had been raised as a generational witch, powerful family in the coven (not the new pseudo-witchcraft stuff like wicca, but the "ancient ways"), and he ended up converting to Christianity (as well as his mother, the High Priestess). He was refuged in a monastery in Belfast, and they have a "ceremony" that one goes through upon repentance of sin, renouncment of satan, and acceptance of Jesus as Lord. Here's how it goes:

From sunset the repentant one is dressed in filthy rag-like garments and lays prone before the altar. All through the night he prays and ponders on sin, repentance, and freedom. The next day, the filthy garment is removed, he is bathed, and given a pure white linen robe to wear. After the robe is on, several Brothers lay their hands on him, praying over him, welcoming him into the family of Christ. After this, they all sing hymns of rejoicing and feast.

I thought that was one of the most incredible acting-outs of the past being removed (and in his words to me...chains falling from his shoulders), regeneration taking place, and the promise of a new life to live. I wish I could witness it just once, but, of course, I'm female so that isn't allowed, but still, I was given this beautiful description of it by the monk friend I mentioned earlier.

So yeah...chains being removed...very good analogy.

My prayers are with you .

Blessings,
Terri

I like those quotes!

What might be instructive for purposes of this thread topic is to see how spirituality in the different perspectives deals with this basic, existential woundedness. Just a brief response, here, would be:

A. Philosophic - viewed as woundedness resulting from dysfunctional developmental environment (psychology), or suffering that is the result of attachment-desires (Buddhism. Therapy and inner work to facilitate healing (psychology); eightfold path emphasizing a life of moderation, compassion, and meditation (Buddhism).

B. Theistic - woundedness ultimately a consequence of disobedience to God -- selfishness -- which ruptured the soul's innate attentiveness to God's presence and guidance. Influence of evil spirit in human affairs. Resolved by keeping the divine law / fulfilling one's religious duties. Not adverse to philosophic-level interventions.

C. Theotic - incorporates philosophic and theistic accounts of woundedness. Resolved through Christ's death, wherein God becomes present to humanity in the depths of our sufferering; at-one-ment with us in our affliction. Through the resurrection and ascension, humanity, through Christ, is raised to a new order of existence in God. Through the gift of the Holy Spirit, the divine life is given to transform broken human nature unto Christ consciousness. Through faith, one opens oneself to receive these gifts and so begins the spiritual journey of healing and transformation.

Edit - the Twelve Step process of recovery groups could be either theistic or theotic, depending on how one understands "Higher Power" and works the Steps. In some cases, it might even be philosophic spirituality, if the Higher Power is viewed as the group, or the program.

That's an informative breakdown, Phil. Thanks for posting it. I may have to print that out so I can keep it all straight in my head.

It's interesting to see the different approaches to the healing of the woundedness.

Blessings,
Terri

I thought that was one of the most incredible acting-outs of the past being removed (and in his words to me...chains falling from his shoulders), regeneration taking place, and the promise of a new life to live. I wish I could witness it just once, but, of course, I'm female so that isn't allowed, but still, I was given this beautiful description of it by the monk friend I mentioned earlier.

That whole story, Terri, is such a powerful reminder of how desperately we all need to feel accepted and normal�even to the point of joining a cult of witches. And given this vulnerable need (and no doubt these two people�s attraction to rich, visual ritual and imagery) I can certainly see how the ritual of the monks would be a great way to reach them, and perhaps many other people�and in definitely a good way.

I wish I could witness it just once, but, of course, I'm female so that isn't allowed�

And then I was reminded by your yearning that some people can do all this without all the ceremony and props (and without the, err, if you�ll pardon the expression, mega-church video screens). They can do it just with the goodness of their presence (and another Presence) and by eloquently, humbly and forthrightly teaching about such things as "feeding the poor, clothing the naked, giving drink to the thirsty, etc." Oh, I am such a nasty you-know-what for feeding those words back at you. But I hope I do so with the kindest of intentions. Perhaps some people need the smoke and mirrors of ceremony. Other people need the simple, direct and inherently inspirational message that needs no pomp and circumstance. Perhaps this message is so strong that ritual and ceremony can do nothing but detract from that message. My bias is towards less, simple and direct. I think the message is good enough that it needs only the eloquence of a heart that is truly inspired and loving. I think those of good faith notice when, like a TV sitcom that has run out of ideas, we begin to fall back on gadgetry and other stilted conventions to take the place of true inspiration and creation. But don�t consider this an attack on ritual. It is not. But maybe the ritual of no-ritual is something that is needed once in a while.

Wouldn�t it take just an amazing amount of faith and confidence for a preacher to take the pulpit some Sunday and say "Folks, I�m fresh out of ideas for you today. Sundays have become too much like an audition and each week I try harder and harder to keep this a highly-rated show. But today I woke up and realized I�ve got nothing. So instead of asking for more money so that we can buy an even bigger video screen in order to hide this fact, I�m going to ask you all to take this hour to get to know your neighbors who are sitting beside you, in front of you, or a few rows back. And if any of you feel the urge, I�d like you to come up here and speak for a minute or two on whatever subject (gardening if you want) you feel inspired to talk about. We should remember that all these things are His creation and to talk about them together is always good."

Okay, Terri, I realize I�ve sort of unfairly kamikazied you with your own words and ideas, but I�ll have you know that I agree with you; both in the less-is-best idea that you advocate and in your fond regard for the ceremony of the monks. I suppose that in the end these are all tools in the arsenal of one whose heart is in the right place and who means to use them well.

quote:

"Folks, I�m fresh out of ideas for you today. Sundays have become too much like an audition and each week I try harder and harder to keep this a highly-rated show. But today I woke up and realized I�ve got nothing. So instead of asking for more money so that we can buy an even bigger video screen in order to hide this fact

Man alive, that's some charicature, Brad!

quote:

I�m going to ask you all to take this hour to get to know your neighbors who are sitting beside you, in front of you, or a few rows back. And if any of you feel the urge, I�d like you to come up here and speak for a minute or two on whatever subject (gardening if you want) you feel inspired to talk about. We should remember that all these things are His creation and to talk about them together is always good.

That would be the Weds. night pot-luck gathering, or the coffee and doughnuts after a service.

The communal gather for worship has a different focus and it shouldn't be allowed to deteriorate into just another instance of philosophic spirituality. Given the preponderance of philosophic /secular witness in the world and the overt antagonism in certain circles toward religion, we come together to publicly affirm that we know ourselves to be creatures who owe our life and existence to our Creator. We come to sing, praise, and deepen our theistic perspective together. At a Christian service, we are also remembering God's deeds through Christ, and acknowledging our connection with one another as members of His Body. In some services, we also commune with Him and one another sacramentally.

From the philosophic or secular perspective, all this might seem ridiculous. Indeed, we encounter the boundary again between these perspectives and the theistic / theotic in the attitude of those who wouldn't be caught dead rubbing shoulders with these stupid, hypocritical believers . . . which is why those of us who do worship together draw upon one's another's public witness to continue in our own journeys.

Man alive, that's some charicature

That was an example, I believe, in the context of what Terri was talking about, not a caricature. Surely there�s some church somewhere that resembles my remarks.

The communal gather for worship has a different focus and it shouldn't be allowed to deteriorate into just another instance of philosophic spirituality.

I suppose that�s why there are so many churches and denominations. One person�s coffee and doughnuts is another person�s true meaning of it all.

I suppose that�s why there are so many churches and denominations.

What's that supposed to mean?

Oh, well, don't mind me -- y'all seem to be having fun and that's OK.

What's that supposed to mean?

I think I was just trying to say something like "to each his own".

Okay, Terri, I realize I�ve sort of unfairly kamikazied you with your own words and ideas, but I�ll have you know that I agree with you

Not at all, Brad! For me, the symbolism of the ritual was just astounding, and that plus the fact that this young man was loved by me and several others as if he was our own son brought a lot of meaning to it as well. I think probably my bias against "commercialized" Christianity is why I see the ritual of the monks as a sacred thing (partly because it's conducted only for them to see and partly because in the early days of Christianity, those baptized were given new white linen robes to wear as a proclamation of the "new birth" in Christ) and the video thing as somehow...superificial?..maybe that's not the right word, but something close to that. I think the thing I've always admired about the Catholic church is that it is "high" church, and in many ways, the Protestant community has abandoned that for the more secular style of worship. I'm not sure why, but that's always seemed like an oxymoron to me..secular worship. But, that's strictly my opinion.

There's a quote by St. Francis of Assisi that goes like this:

Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.

I've always loved that because so many times we use words instead of "preaching" with our actions and who we are.

That's a little off-topic isn't it?..lol..sorry, it just came to me as I was sitting here, so I'm throwing it out there .

Blessings,
Terri

I gotcha, Terri. Thanks for that perspective. I suppose whether it�s ancient white robes or modern video screens, the old and the new are always going to be in tension to some extent. At least that�s how I see it. And here we are, you, me and Phil, sharing our thoughts about tradition, ritual and whatnot on an electronic bulletin board. Splendid irony if you ask me.

I suppose whether it�s ancient white robes or modern video screens, the old and the new are always going to be in tension to some extent.

Yeah..I guess it's always been so. I've been reading a book recently about Church history, and the author notes that by the end of the 4th century, the simplicity of Jesus and His disciples had pretty much started to erode away. Not that it was a bad thing, but that it was "different" in many ways.

I sometimes find myself torn between wanting old and new...guess that's just a part of life, eh?

Er and yeah...the irony of it all!

Blessings,
Terri

Terri, yes, I just started reading a new Merton book, today, in fact, a year's worth of excerpts from his journals. I have about 40 hours of Merton recordings that comfort me, sometimes not just his words, but also his voice and the bells ringing in the Abbey and the monks asking him questions. What a gift!

Brad, you made me think of Clint Eastwood: Ain't got no pride. Ain't got no shame.

Phil that mystical body reference was indeed just synchronicity inasmuch as I hadn't been on the psychological types forums lately.

This thread continues to edify me. Seems destined for the SPlace Hall of Fame, right up there with K-Pax!

Pax!
jb

This might, at first, seem off-topic BUT

I'll make the connection.

I picked up a couple of books this week by an LSU English professor, who was President, American Theatre and Drama Society, 2002-2004. His primary interests are Intersections of theatre/drama and science/philosophy.

The connection I see are the junctures between the arts and sciences, between religion and science, between the heart and the head. There are many ways to experience and encounter truth, not all rational, not all nonrational. Not all creed, not all ritual.

Look at the connects below in these reviews:

Staging Consciousness argues that theater is a living invalidation of the
Western dualism of mind and body, activating human consciousness through its
embodiment of thought in performance. While consciousness theory has begun
to find ways to bridge dualist gaps, Staging Consciousness suggests that
theater has anticipated these advances, given the ways in which the physical
theater promotes nonphysical thought, connecting the two realms in unique
and ingenious ways.

William W. Demastes makes use of the writings of such varied theater
practitioners as Antonin Artaud, Jerzy Grotowski, Samuel Beckett, Tony
Kushner, Sam Shepard, Spalding Gray, Peter Shaffer, and others, illuminating
theater as proof that mind is an extension of body. The living stage
incubates and materializes thought in a way that highlights the processes of
daily existence outside the theater. This book offers a new way for theater
practitioners to look at the unique value of the theater and an invitation
for philosophers and scientists to search for new paradigms in theater, the
oldest of art forms.

William W. Demastes is Professor of English, Louisiana State University. His
previous books include Theatre of Chaos: Beyond Absurdism, into Disorderly
Order.

In this study, Theatre of Chaos: Beyond Absurdism, into Disorderly Order,
chaos theory and quantum mechanics are employed as the basis for a clearer
understanding of the often confusing contemporary theatre world. Examining
numerous antecedents to contemporary thought on chaos and the cultural roots
of the notion of chaos, William Demastes suggests links to playwrights
ranging from Shakespeare and Ibsen to Tom Stoppard, Sam Shepard, and Tony
Kushner. The author investigates parallel developments across the arts and
sciences: connections between the dramatic naturalism of the late nineteenth
century and Newtonian thought, for example, and theatre of the absurd and
chaos theory. After centuries of isolation and increased specialization,
Demastes contends, it may once again be time to consider the "arts" and
"sciences" together and to acknowledge their interrelations. These
intersections confirm that "orderly disorder" is displacing a far more rigid
and less viable system of knowing our world, and ushering in a rich, varied,
and forward-looking theory of existence for contemporary society.

pax,
jb

Charming fellow that he was, when asked about the propensity of communism for killing innocent people,
he replied that there were no innocent people.
Still a good play, though...

http://www.gradesaver.com/Clas..._bertolt_brecht.html

http://www.culturewars.org.uk/.../theatre/galileo.htm

Terri, yes, I just started reading a new Merton book, today, in fact, a year's worth of excerpts from his journals. I have about 40 hours of Merton recordings that comfort me, sometimes not just his words, but also his voice and the bells ringing in the Abbey and the monks asking him questions. What a gift!

Oh man!...I would LOVE to hear his voice. I bet he is soothing and..real. (reminding myself that coveting is a sin )

Interesting about theater and consciousness, although I'm not entirely sure I understand it. I'm not too familiar with this type of thing (dualism). Mind and body...I've always thought they were inherently linked, however, I do realize that we can "disconnect" in a way. Um...but I'm not at all sure that's what is being talked about in the review.

Blessings,
Terri

LOL. You'd THINK I would have gotten the hang of this posting thing. Posted a message in the wrong thread. Nevermind. Keep moving along. Nothing to see here.

quote:

In this study, Theatre of Chaos: Beyond Absurdism, into Disorderly Order, chaos theory and quantum mechanics are employed as the basis for a clearer understanding of the often confusing contemporary theatre world�These intersections confirm that "orderly disorder" is displacing a far more rigid and less viable system of knowing our world, and ushering in a rich, varied, and forward-looking theory of existence for contemporary society.

Those do sound like intriguing propositions. You see, people? All my ravings about every little life situation being comparable to, and explainable by, a Star Trek episode is not so insane.

Note the "so".

Do you feel lucky, Prot? Well, do you?

quote:

Originally posted by Brad Nelson:
[qb]

quote:

In this study, Theatre of Chaos: Beyond Absurdism, into Disorderly Order, chaos theory and quantum mechanics are employed as the basis for a clearer understanding of the often confusing contemporary theatre world�These intersections confirm that "orderly disorder" is displacing a far more rigid and less viable system of knowing our world, and ushering in a rich, varied, and forward-looking theory of existence for contemporary society.

Those do sound like intriguing propositions. You see, people? All my ravings about every little life situation being comparable to, and explainable by, a Star Trek episode is not so insane.

Note the "so".

Do you feel lucky, Prot? Well, do you? [/qb]

I was looking for a review of a book I just read by Polkinghorne and came across these books. The book I am reading is Quarks, Chaos and Christianity: Questions to Science and Christianity and reviews are available at Amazon. This is good page, too: starcourse .org , speaking of StarTrek .

pax!
jb

There are hundreds of hours of Merton's talks out there. Does anyone know where to find some. Many of them are sitting around gathering dust. I fear.

I like Polkinghorne.

quote:

Originally posted by mysticalmichael9:
[qb] There are hundreds of hours of Merton's talks out there. Does anyone know where to find some. Many of them are sitting around gathering dust. I fear.

I like Polkinghorne. [/qb]

MM, you mean talks to purchase? Go to Credence Communications , where they have 89 different presentations by Merton, grouped in the following categories:

Ascetism
Contemplation
Conversion

Early Christian Spirituality
Love
Marian Spirituality

Marxist Theory
Mysticism
Poetry

Prayer
Self-Actualization
Solitude

Spirituality
Spirituality in Literature
Vow of Chastity

Vow of Humility
Vow of Poverty
Writings of the Saints

pax,
jb