I was hoping you would like that quote, Terri. I hope I�m neither taking this thread off-track nor ruining the surprise of the story, but I wanted to post this additional quote from "Abondonment" as well. Even though at present I might not take everything that�s said at face value, for some reason I find it useful to read such things.

quote:

Let us, then, endure without annoyance the humiliations entailed on us in our own eyes, and in the eyes of others, by what shows outwardly in our lives; or rather, let us conceal ourselves behind these outward appearances and enjoy God who is all ours. Let us profit by this apparent failure, by these requirements, by this care-taking and the necessity of constant nourishment, and of comfort; of our ill-success, of the contempt of others, of these fears, uncertainties, troubles, etc., to find all our wealth and happiness in God, who, by these means, gives Himself entirely to us as our only good. God wishes to be ours in a poor way, without all those accessories of sanctity which make others to be admired, and this is because God would have Himself to be the sole food of our souls, the only object of our desires. We are so weak that if we displayed the virtues of zeal, almsgiving, poverty, and austerity, we should make them subjects for vainglory. But as it is, everything is disagreeable in order that God may be our whole sanctification, our whole support, so that the world despises us, and leaves us to enjoy our treasure in peace. God desires to be the principle of all that is holy in us, and therefore what depends on ourselves and on our active fidelity is very small, and appears quite contrary to sanctity. There cannot be anything great in us in the sight of God except our passive endurance. Therefore let us think of it no more, let us leave the care of our sanctification to God who well knows how to effect it. It all depends on the watchful care, and particular operation of divine Providence, and is accomplished in a great measure without our knowledge, and even in a way that is unexpected, and disagreeable to us. Let us fulfil peacefully the little duties of our active fidelity, without aspiring to those that are greater, because God does not give Himself to us by reason of our own efforts. We shall become saints of God, of His grace, and of His special providence. He knows what rank to give us, let us leave it to Him, and without forming to ourselves false ideas, and empty systems of sanctity, let us content ourselves with loving Him unceasingly, and in pursuing with simplicity the path He has marked out for us, where all is so mean and paltry in our eyes, and in the estimation of the world.

This second quote I think is a good one as well:

quote:

The second trial of souls conducted by God in this way is the result of their apparent uselessness, and of their exterior defects. There can be neither honour nor reward in a service hidden, often enough, under the most utter incapacity and uselessness, as far as the world is concerned. Doubtless those who are given more important posts, are not, on this account, necessarily precluded from the state of abandonment. Less still is this state incompatible with striking virtue, and that sanctity which attracts universal veneration. Nevertheless there is a far greater number of souls raised to this sublime state whose virtue is known only to God. By their state these souls are free from nearly every outward obligation. They are little suited for worldly business or affairs, for complicated concerns, or for putting their mind into the conducting of industries. It seems as though they were quite useless; nothing is noticeable in them but feebleness of body, mind, imagination and passions. They take no notice of anything. They are, so to say, quite stupid, and possess nothing of that culture, study, or reflexion which go to the making of a man. They are like children of nature before they are placed in the hands of masters to be formed. They have noticeable faults which, without rendering them more guilty than children, cause more offence. God takes away everything but innocence in order that they should have nothing to rely upon but Him alone. The world, being in ignorance of this mystery can only judge by appearance, and can find nothing in them to its taste, nor anything that it values. It, therefore, rejects and despises them, and they seem to be exposed to censure from all. The more closely they are observed, the less is thought of them and the more opposition do they encounter; no one knows what to make of them. Although some hidden voice seems to speak in their favour, yet people prefer to adhere to their own malignant prepossessions rather than to follow this instinct, or at least to suspend their judgment. Their actions are pried into to find out their opinions, and like the Pharisees who could not endure the actions of Jesus, they are regarded with such prejudice that everything they do appears either ridiculous or criminal.

Those are incredible quotes. I think I may have to get the hard copy of this book rather than just reading it online. I've heard so many good things over the years, I can't believe I don't already have it.

To me, what you've been quoting is the very essence of Christianity, which calls for us to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Jesus; to be crucified with Him and raised to live "in" Him. It is greatly lacking in the modern view of religion (at least for us Protestants). For some reason, the modern world wants to be seen and noticed for their sacrifices. That is against everything Jesus taught.

I hope you keep enjoying the book, and I would say that even though you don't take it at face value presently, God is using it to show you a bit of who He is, perhaps to counteract the negative things you've encountered (and there are MANY who have encountered a negative image of God).

Blessings to you, and thanks for posting these.
Terri

Rats, I forgot to add something. A monk once told me that if we truly lived Christ, people would run to Him. I believe the way he put it was that we should bring Jesus up out of the book instead of leaving Him as merely words on paper. In that way His love would be lived as a witness rather than only being talked about.

He was an incredible man, and I learned a lot about the love of Jesus from him.

Okay...I think I'm done now...lol.

Blessings,
Terri

To me, what you've been quoting is the very essence of Christianity . . .

That's right, Terri: Abandonment to Divine Providence is a highly developed contemplative spirituality -- definitely in the theotic perspective.

quote:

This science is a practical knowledge by which God is enjoyed as the
only good. In order to master this science it is necessary to be
detached from all personal possessions, to gain this detachment, to be
really deprived of them. Therefore it is only by constant crosses, and
by a long succession of all kinds of mortifications, trials, and
deprivations, that pure love becomes established in the soul. This
must continue until all things created become as though they did not
exist, and God becomes all in all. To effect this God combats all the
personal affections of the soul, so that when these take any especial
shape, such as some pious notion, some help to devotion; or when there
is any idea of being able to attain perfection by some such method, or
such a path or way, or by the guidance of some particular person; in
fine to whatever the soul attaches itself, God upsets its plans, and
allows it to find, instead of success in these projects, nothing but
confusion, trouble, emptiness, and folly. Hardly has it said "I must
go this way, I must consult this person, or, I must act in such a
manner," than God immediately says the exact contrary, and withdraws
all the virtue usual in the means adopted by the soul. Thus, finding
only deception and emptiness in everything, the soul is compelled to
have recourse to God Himself, and to be content with Him.

------------------ Bk 2, Ch 2, Sect. 2

de Caussade is describing the spirituality of Christians who have long traveled the active way, taken direction from spiritual directors, and who are still availing themselves of prayer, the Sacraments, etc. Only, he's telling them they can entrust themselves to a sure inner guidance that will form them more perfectly in the ways of Christ. It is, at one anc the same time, an incredibly difficult but marvelously simple path to follow.

Only, he's telling them they can entrust themselves to a sure inner guidance that will form them more perfectly in the ways of Christ. It is, at one anc the same time, an incredibly difficult but marvelously simple path to follow.

I agree with that. In defense of some who are reluctant to be on that path, I think part of the reason is flim-flam artists who have corrupted this aspect of Christianity. It's difficult to approach some folks concerning the "inner guidance" because of that. Sad.

Blessings,
Terri

The secret to life is to turn toward love, no matter the circumstance. When grief, loneliness, tragedy, violence, anger or hatred rob one of that love then a willing turn toward love is a turn so sharp, so sudden, so unexpected as to cause a small tear in the very fabric of space and time. If this rift were drawn in the heavens the rift, this void, would be black and empty of stars. It is an area too strange and mysterious to hold such familiar things. This disconnect in the ways of passing on our harms is a shock to the system of the status quo. The causal link of reality is upset. Cause and effect loses some of its tyrannical power. By doing nothing more than being the domino that refuses to fall you call into question the whole legitimacy of the present order.

The power of love is a lesson that can be very hard to learn, especially for those who have been shown mainly the finer points of hate. How can a blind man ever conceive of the colors of the rainbow?

There is probably no good reason that a number of us here didn�t become serial killers or murderers. It wasn�t for lack of suffering. It wasn�t for lack of disillusionment. It wasn�t for lack of cruelty done to us. But something inside said "No! I will not be so." I truly believe that a great deal of addictive, self-destructive behavior is an unconscious attempt to redirect those hurtful waves inward, instead of outward, where they will do less harm to others. Like falling on a hand grenade. But still the hardest thing to do in the face of hardships is to love anyway. It is easy, too easy, to make one�s way to the eternal depths of despair. For some there seems to be a natural pull in this direction. They are like salmon swimming upstream. If they stop struggling for even a moment they lose distance. I think there�s a very good slipstream or streamline analogy there somewhere. All our little hurts and injustices project from our bodies and provide drag. They catch on any little current of perceived injustice.

As far as connecting this mini-diatribe to spirituality, isn�t spirituality, at the very least, a means to strengthen our ability, at those crucial moments when we can do one or the other, to love?

Speaking personally, if I may, being quite devoid of love in a more tangible sense does leave me feeling the effect, from time to time, of something greater, grander, and absolutely indescribable when instead of pouting, ranting, getting angry, being resentful, or whatever, I instead find a way, no matter how small, to love. It�s not that there still isn�t a very hard, bittersweet pang to it all, but it does seem the better course no matter where it leads.

For some reason, the modern world wants to be seen and noticed for their sacrifices. That is against everything Jesus taught.

Is that the "I'm not getting mine, I'm doing without, I'm unfulfilled, so I'm going to put that deficit into the 'Jesus' column of the balance sheet and have it go towards my authenticity as a Christian". Is that what you mean, Terri? If not, could you explain?

Well....yeah...sort of. But moreso that it's for other people to see. Something like....I've given up this and this, and see how pious I am, and haven't you noticed that I work steadily in the church even though I really would enjoy golfing, and aren't you impressed with my sacrifices for Jesus?

In scripture Jesus says things like:

Mat 6:16 "Whenever you fast, don't be gloomy like the hypocrites. For they put on sad faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have their full reward!

Mat 6:1 "Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of people in order to be noticed by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
Mat 6:2 So whenever you give to the poor, don't blow a trumpet before you like the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets so that they will be praised by people. Truly I tell you, they have their full reward!
Mat 6:3 But when you give to the poor, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
Mat 6:4 so that your giving may be done in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."
Mat 6:5 "And whenever you pray, don't be like the hypocrites who love to stand in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they will be seen by people. Truly I tell you, they have their full reward!
Mat 6:6 But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

And in chastising the Pharisees:

Mat 23:5 "They do all their actions to be seen by people. They increase the size of their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.
Mat 23:6 They love to have the places of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 to be greeted in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi' by people.

Does that explain more?

Blessings,
Terri

They have said that it is easier to act oneself into a new way of thinking than to think oneself into a new way of acting.

Concepts and words are part of a formal symbol system and are morally neutral as a tool. Can do great harm or accomplish immeasurable good, as in Abandonment to Divine Providence (and look up, too, Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence).

Love and living, living and loving, in the time of Jesus, was accomplished in what has been called a mytho-poetic mindset, which dealt in stories and metaphors, you know, like Jesus, and was mostly pre-inferential. That wasn't just the way they talked or that Jesus taught; it was the semitic way of thinking, too! I say: Go for it!

The modern conceptual mindset has a hellenistic mindset that deals much more in formal symbols and abstractions and inferences.

Look at these break downs by Dr. Paul Laughlin for his Religion 101, who writes:

Though the real language of the spirit is almost certainly silence, the best way to speak about the Ultimate and the experience of it is always closer to poetry than to prose.

Religious language in general: indirect, non-literal, symbolic, metaphorical, mythopoetic; hence, it always seems "slippery"; that is why a disproportiate number of the world's religious scriptures are poetry; the most beloved and treasured scriptures in Christianity, for example, are the Psalms.

The expressive dimensions of religion are mythical, ritual, and artistic.

The Doctrinal or Conceptual Dimension of Religion is the result of rational reflection on
(a) religious experience (at first) and
(b) inherited belief systems (at later stages)

The main topics of doctrine are
(a) Ultimate Reality
(b) the Cosmos/World (its origins and nature), and
(c) Humanity (its nature, predicament, and destiny)

The overall framework of religious doctrine is determined
by whether Ultimate Reality is perceived as transcendent,
immanent or some combination of the two.

There's another couple of dimensions. Want to guess what those are? Remember my old mnemonic of creed, cult, code and community? Go for it ALL, I say!

See: http://www.otterbein.edu/dept/RELG/REL100LEC3b.htm


pax,
JB

Does that explain more?

Yes, I believe that explains perfectly, Terri. Thanks. I wonder if a lot of that behavior is out of fear. We simply assume that people are being pompous or self-righteous or are more worried about status and power than about the ideas in whatever cause they're involved in (religion, politics, you name it). And certainly that is often the case. Who am I to contract JC? But I think it's one of those situations where nobody wants to go first. Nobody wants to stand out from the crowd, at least in a way that is unconventional. But I also think it's because people really, truly just have no idea whatsoever how to act in the way that Jesus was talking about. I know people (not saints, mind you, but decent enough people) for whom such ideas as "So whenever you give to the poor, don't blow a trumpet before you like the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets so that they will be praised by people. Truly I tell you, they have their full reward!" would be like a foreign language. Sometimes people just need examples, roll models. Okay, maybe they should have already gotten this already from The Book, but somehow they didn't.

And for many people who might not no how to act, they certainly have notions of how not to act, and with deference to all the genuinely good Moonies out there, well, let's just say that there may be some valid reasons that people are a bit afraid of the less conventional approaches. But if you were to say that to act according to the beliefs would inherently lead to the unconventional then I wouldn't argue with you one bit. It might be time for a few more people to read In His Steps. I know I got a hell of a lot out of it. Ooops. Well. You know what I mean.

Love and living, living and loving, in the time of Jesus, was accomplished in what has been called a mytho-poetic mindset, which dealt in stories and metaphors, you know, like Jesus, and was mostly pre-inferential. That wasn't just the way they talked or that Jesus taught; it was the semitic way of thinking, too! I say: Go for it!

Yep, I agree...I agree with your whole post. When one studies the Hebrew mindset, the idioms, and their way of relating God and living with God down through the ages, it gives one a better idea of the "how" of their thoughts and the "how" they applied their lives to God's commands, directions, and involvement. Granted, their was a shift when Jesus came. It changed things from limiting who approaches the throne to all being able to approach it. Still, though, the scripture comes from that same Hebrew mindset and we often miss it with our modern way of thinking.

Nobody wants to stand out from the crowd, at least in a way that is unconventional.

I think that does hit on part of it. For some folks this part of the quotes of de Cussade would be very frightening indeed:

"He knows what rank to give us, let us leave it to Him, and without forming to ourselves false ideas, and empty systems of sanctity, let us content ourselves with loving Him unceasingly, and in pursuing with simplicity the path He has marked out for us, where all is so mean and paltry in our eyes, and in the estimation of the world."

"Nevertheless there is a far greater number of souls raised to this sublime state whose virtue is known only to God. By their state these souls are free from nearly every outward obligation. They are little suited for worldly business or affairs, for complicated concerns, or for putting their mind into the conducting of industries. It seems as though they were quite useless; nothing is noticeable in them but feebleness of body, mind, imagination and passions. They take no notice of anything. They are, so to say, quite stupid, and possess nothing of that culture, study, or reflexion which go to the making of a man. They are like children of nature before they are placed in the hands of masters to be formed. They have noticeable faults which, without rendering them more guilty than children, cause more offence. God takes away everything but innocence in order that they should have nothing to rely upon but Him alone. The world, being in ignorance of this mystery can only judge by appearance, and can find nothing in them to its taste, nor anything that it values. It, therefore, rejects and despises them, and they seem to be exposed to censure from all. The more closely they are observed, the less is thought of them and the more opposition do they encounter; no one knows what to make of them."

This, too, would be like a foreign language to many. The attitude of "most is best" has infiltrated the church just as much as it has secular society, so to be of the persuasion that "less is best" is to put one at odds with the majority of even their family in Christ.


It might be time for a few more people to read In His Steps.

That's a great book. Something else that I enjoyed is a booklet, really, by Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection. The title of it is The Practice of the Presence of God . You can read it online there.

Blessings,
Terri

The attitude of "most is best" has infiltrated the church just as much as it has secular society, so to be of the persuasion that "less is best" is to put one at odds with the majority of even their family in Christ.

Wouldn't you say that our natural inclination is toward accumulation? Wouldn't you say we need intense and ongoing training to learn "less is best"? It seems to me that so many of the great masters and spiritual leaders of all time have said, more or less, that peace and contentment is found by accepting what one has or understanding the significance of what one has. There are literally an infinite number of things we could have, all in various quantities and combinations. As a book that I read recently said, we can't enjoy anything if we always have our eye on that next thing. And this makes sense. If we reject the present moment as not being good enough then we make it extremely difficult for any moment to be good enough and enjoyed. And let me just say that I am not vacuously proselytizing. This is one of my main issues. I know the harm.

But this is a complex issue. There are people, say, starving people, who so obviously need more that to ask them to accept less would be considered inhumane and cruel. And neither would we want to stop the wheels of progress. Who wants to give back the latest convenience gadget or miracle drug? A cave would be less, but I'd rather live in a snug home with four walls, a fireplace and a rug. I suppose, as always, it's a question of balance. We might see "less is best" as a virtue and therefore order our whole lives around that one virtue until we are living an ascetic's life. That might be right for some rare few, but I can't help thinking that it isn't right for most of us. Maybe we would learn something by spending some time in that state, but to stay in that state might not be inherently virtuous.

Perhaps it's a matter of attitude. Perhaps, even as we work to acquire more or better, we should acknowledge and keep firmly in mind that there is no end point to accumulation. There is no final place where all our needs are quenched. We must recognize that this is an inherent trap. The more needs we fill the more needs we find to fill and the more we may feel lacking. We must learn to love and appreciate what we have as if we were never to receive any more. If we do receive more we must assume it is the last more we will ever receive and be thankful for it. If someday we come to the conclusion that we have too much and wish to lighten the load and uncomplicated our lives by giving much of it away, then we might see this as progress and as a virtue. But I wonder if we mere mortals can ever pain or poverty our way to happiness? If we do, are we then not rejecting the, say, health or wealth that we now have?

There are things I feel I need or want, although I suspect some of them are not needed and some of them are wanted for the wrong reasons. And I suspect that there is another paradigm for wealth that must be weighed and measured against the paradigm of material wealth. Yes, Terri, at least to me it all seems so complicated at times. I definitely need less.

Wouldn't you say that our natural inclination is toward accumulation? Wouldn't you say we need intense and ongoing training to learn "less is best"?

I'm not sure I would call it a "natural inclination" but rather an inclination that we've been led to believe is natural. At least from a religious standpoint, even in the OT, the attitude was only to have what we needed and to help our brethren with any extra we had. But yes, it is definitely something we need training to learn.

However, in those quotes I wasn't necessarily talking about "things" but more about recognition, entertainment (to draw people in), or programs (again to draw people in). It's like having the idea that if we have enough video screens in the mega-church building, flashing the Pastor preaching his message, with some really cool contemporary music in between (almost like commercial breaks) then we're really an "alive" church. When in truth, they could be just as "alive" without those things and concentrating on the things we're told to concentrate on like...feeding the poor, clothing the naked, giving drink to the thirsty, etc.

Or for instance, this current trend in Protestant churches (don't know about Catholic ones) that the preacher needs to be a recognized writer with a certain amount of published books...recognition. Flash....know what I mean? This goes against the life of Jesus and how He conducted himself, yet it is all over the place in mainstream Christianity.

Your note about the starving people made me think of a young girl we heard about at a church this summer. She, along with other youth, had gone to some third-world country (can't remember where right off the bat), and when she came home she told about how upset with herself she was because they virtually had nothing, yet were the happiest most Spirit-filled people she'd ever seen, while she was always complaining that she didn't have the latest doo-dad. She came away with a change of heart, change of mind, and change of spirit. But yes, I do see your point. I just wasn't equating "more" or "less" with strictly material things .

Perhaps, even as we work to acquire more or better, we should acknowledge and keep firmly in mind that there is no end point to accumulation. There is no final place where all our needs are quenched. We must recognize that this is an inherent trap. The more needs we fill the more needs we find to fill and the more we may feel lacking. We must learn to love and appreciate what we have as if we were never to receive any more.

Absolutely! That is a really wise set of statements there. We could all do with "less." It's weird how the more you actually try to live with less, the more complicated living that way becomes! Strange.

Blessings,
Terri

quote:

Originally posted by jk1962:
[qb] Something else that I enjoyed is a booklet, really, by Brother Lawrence of the Resurrection. The title of it is The Practice of the Presence of God . [/qb]

Terri, y'all have been discussing my favorite spiritual books, which have a special place on my shelves! I have not interjected, often, because it is not always easy to see where my contribution could improve anything ... those are real gems .. both the excerpts and your commentary, Terri and Brad. Carry on!!!!!!!

Love,
jb

This all makes me wonder, considering the regular contributors, here, at Shalomplace, thinking in terms of personality psychology, MBTI, jungian typology, enneagram or what have ya, do y'all think we have a "whole person" here, you know, if one could meld us all together (Eucharistically, speaking)? Each of you seems to bring an indispensable emphasis to the table, whether that be the cognitive, affective or instinctive aspect, as coupled with the creed, cult, code or community aspect, whether the semitic mythopoetic or the hellenistic conceptual (like the different Gospel writers).

Who brings what? and let's not forget the Helminiak categories, too, positivistic, philosophic, theistic and theotic. I think all of us have real traces of all of what it takes to be fully individuated, but clearly we each bring a unique giftedness and emphasis.

pax,
jb

However, in those quotes I wasn't necessarily talking about "things" but more about recognition, entertainment (to draw people in), or programs (again to draw people in). It's like having the idea that if we have enough video screens in the mega-church building, flashing the Pastor preaching his message, with some really cool contemporary music in between (almost like commercial breaks) then we're really an "alive" church.

I got ya now, Terri. I haven�t been to a church service in over twenty years so I�m really quite ignorant of what goes on these days.

Or for instance, this current trend in Protestant churches (don't know about Catholic ones) that the preacher needs to be a recognized writer with a certain amount of published books...recognition. Flash....know what I mean? This goes against the life of Jesus and how He conducted himself, yet it is all over the place in mainstream Christianity.

Let me just tell you what�s on my mind right now. I think you would make a splendid preacher and I think you SHOULD be a preacher. What you say sounds so refreshing. What you say sounds like the kind of church I might attend. And don�t you, Terri, ever think that there aren�t literally multitudes who would be attracted to an attitude such as yours. And, also, don�t think there wouldn�t be detractors as well. There always are.

Let me just be a witness to the efficacy of you words and thoughts. They have helped me. Maybe your audience is meant to be found on the internet or in the church pews. I can�t say. But I do think people would benefit from your wisdom, Terri. Consider it�that is if you�re FAR far braver than me.

This all makes me wonder, considering the regular contributors, here, at Shalomplace, thinking in terms of personality psychology, MBTI, jungian typology, enneagram or what have ya, do y'all think we have a "whole person" here, you know, if one could meld us all together (Eucharistically, speaking)?

JB, I swear, I think it was when reading page three or page four of this thread that I had had the same thought (in general, not in specific as you did). There was the hint of a sort of completeness. It�s a positive feeling. It�s not one of "Oh, gee, I see I�m missing this part and I�m missing that part." It�s a feeling that one is okay in one�s limitations because those limitations leave room for other people.

Who brings what?

I think you�re in charge of the crawfish. I�ll bring the oysters.

Oh man..I'm getting all misty-eyed here..lol..seriously.

JB, I'm like Brad. When I read your comment about us all making up a whole person, it was like...YES!!! That is definitely what I see here and one reason I always enjoy these kinds of convos. They just are so personal even though they're on a message board. (Although sometimes it makes me shudder just a bit when I realize anyone can read it.)

Isn't it interesting how all the different "parts" come into play here? Very cool indeed.

Have you read Merton? I have a couple of his that I really enjoyed as well. And hey!...comment already!

Brad, bless your heart, I appreciate your words...truly. I think the reason I like internet is because I CAN say these things, and whatever flack I take, it's not someone I have to see face-to-face every day. I had a bit of an experience with my own church that made me bow out of any kind of...what word am I looking for..not preaching, but I did teach some, and I did create Cantatas, poetry for the bulletins, devotional-type things, made some banners, etc. Anyway, I didn't set well with most people . My "style", for lack of a better word, wasn't accepted after a time, sooooo I came to internet searching for places just like this. Here, I can say things, put forth ideas, comment, just whatever, and noone condemns me as a heretic or "out there." Believe it or not, when I was taking chemotherapy several years ago, it was mentioned that some thought my medications might be getting to me .

And with that, I have to say that anything that comes out edifying or good is not from me, but from the One I worship . You knew that was coming didn't ya .

Blessings,
Terri

Even though I likely don�t believe all that you do, it�s the larger context of a place like Shalom Place that makes these interchanges richer and more worthwhile. I don�t mean this with any place specifically in mind, but I could say the same things elsewhere and there would inevitably remain a somewhat unhealthy and narrow emphasis on people and personalities. Every word out of my mouth would tend to become (not that I don�t constantly make this mistake), "See. Look how smart I am!" But with the backdrop of a larger context our lives can be both center stage and not center stage. That provides much more opportunity for context, comparison and ultimately understanding.

I think the reason I like internet is because I CAN say these things, and whatever flack I take, it's not someone I have to see face-to-face every day.

I think I know what you mean. Every once in a while (I don�t do this much anymore), after giving some friend, acquaintance or customer my conservative "spiel", I�ll be encouraged to run for office. Hey, my ego might like this boost, but even it isn�t dumb enough to fall for this. You just can�t these days say what really needs to be said from within the confines of public office. Perhaps the same is true in your case, Terri. And I�m reminded of St. Francis and the enormous good works and change that he brought about by operating, more or less, outside of official channels.

My "style", for lack of a better word, wasn't accepted after a time, sooooo I came to internet searching for places just like this. Here, I can say things, put forth ideas, comment, just whatever, and noone condemns me as a heretic or "out there." Believe it or not, when I was taking chemotherapy several years ago, it was mentioned that some thought my medications might be getting to me

Frankly, I like your "style", although I don�t lack for a better word: substance. Keep that kind and generous heart and you will change the world for the better�one mega-church video screen at a time.

Speaking of Merton:

"In solitude I have at last discovered that You desire the love of my heart, O my God, the love of my heart as it is--the love of my human heart. I have found and have known by Your great mercy that the love of a heart that is abandoned and broken and poor is most pleasing to You and attracts the gaze of Your pity. It is Your desire and Your consolation, O my Lord, to be very close to those who love You and call upon You as their Father. You have perhaps no greater consolation--if I may so speak--than to console Your afflicted children and those who come to You poor and empty handed, with nothing but their humanness, their limitations and their great trust in Your mercy."

"My God, I pray better to You by breathing. I pray better to You by walking than by talking."

"Lord God of this great night, do You see the woods? Do You hear the rumor of their loneliness? Do You behold their secrecy? Do You remember their solitudes? Do You see that my soul is beginning to dissolve like wax within me?"

"My Lord, You have heard the cry of my heart because it was You Who cried out within my heart." (that's one of my favorites)

All quotes are from Dialogues with Silence by Thomas Merton. What an amazing man he was!

Blessings,
Terri

Another favorite of mine...Henri J.M. Nouwen:

Cling to the Promise

Do not tell everyone your story. You will only end up feeling more rejected. People cannot give you what you long for in your heart. The more you expect from people's response to your experience of abandonment, the more you will feel exposed to ridicule.

You have to close yoursef to the outside world so you can enter your own heart and the heart of God through your pain. God will send to you the people with whom you can share your anguish, who can lead you closer to the true source of love.

God is faithful to God's promises. Before you die, you will find the acceptance and the love you crave. It will not come in the way you expect. It will not follow your needs and wishes. But it will fill your heart and satisfy your deepest desire. There is nothing to hold on to but this promise. Everything else has been taken away from you. Cling to that naked promise in faith. Your faith will heal you. (Excerpt from The Inner Voice of Love: A Journey Through Anguish to Freedom).

This book was instrumental to me in more ways than one. Another amazing man.

Blessings,
Terri

I've been busy "holding forth" on that thread about Centering Prayer, but have been following.

Seems that JB read my last conference from the premium group forum on "Mutuality of the Types," or at least it's a really strong synchronicity that he brought up the issue of a group giving a fuller picture of human potential than an individual. I like this idea very much, and try to benefit from it increasingly as I grow older.

I'm pretty much "done" with developing the perspectives. Some of the books you're all citing now seem to be good examples of writers from the theotic perspective developing the practical implications on living this life. That would make it "Christian spirituality" in the true meaning of the term -- a life lived to develop and express one's faith in Christ and the transformation he works in us.

Yes, carry on . . .

Speaking of the "not sure I want to share this on a public forum" syndrome. This thought just occurred to me this morning. It's either the need for self-aggrandizement or the ever-present guilt and shame that makes me uncomfortable sharing this. Luckily (in this case) I have a very unbalanced cognitive trait that can overrule any sense of good judgment.


Speaking of spirituality, this is the prayer I wish I could honestly fulfill:

To be free of the need of self-aggrandizement; to be free of the shame. Oh, that would be pure blissful freedom!

To be free of the need for approval. To be free of the control of ever-present guilt. Oh, that would be pure serene liberty!

To be free of the need to control. To be free of that underlying fear that permeates my relationship to all things. Oh, that would surely be divine salvation!

I was talking with someone the other day about people, about ourselves and others, and why seemingly so much anger and hostility is constantly bleeding out of us. You see it in the stress, the snide comments, the impatience and just the raw low-level anger, fear or anxiety that seems to color so much of our words and behavior. You can talk all day about it being caused by stress, a bad childhood, a fight with the wife, or whatever, but none of these explanations really seem very satisfying. There was always this sense of some deeper cause that was lurking. So the question I posed to myself was, What is the source of all the hostility and upset that we see?" This is the answer that occurred to me:

It�s a deep anger and rage directed at no less than existence itself for letting us down so badly. To be born and to live in this world of wonderful possibilities, few of which seem to go our way, is to be invited to a party but to have the champagne thrown in our face. We find out we are not only unwelcome but the very environment is hostile to us.

And when we vent anger towards existence, which seems inevitable because there�s no avoiding getting hurt in this world, we automatically infect all of our thoughts and actions with bitterness. We lash out at anything and everything; everything, that is, except the real source of our anger. If we find it hard to find a direct cause-and-effect relationship between our anger and the actions of others it is because there is often no such relationship. Other people and other things are just convenient targets for expressing something that we otherwise have a hard time finding the right target for. And we�ll just as often express it as self hatred for not being good enough or strong enough to upset the entire order of the universe so that things work out our way. And if our anger is never, ever quenched and keeps bleeding out at all times no matter how hard we try to do otherwise, we now know why. Our anger wasn�t directed at the right target.

In short, we resent this power reality has over us � seemingly always to tear us down but rarely to build us up. We become estranged from other things and other people. They are either in the way or not giving us what we want. To exist means that there will always linger a deep, deep bitterness about not getting our way. The only way to overcome the anger is to accept these truths of life.

While I agree with you completely, I'll also add that I've noticed if one does "accept these truths of life," one is most likely to be considered apathetic. Nothing could be further from the truth, of course, but for some reason people like to see us "break" and lash out because it makes them feel more justified in their own breaking or lashing out.

I can remember my sweet mother saying that a mentor of hers (who gave her MANY tidbits of wisdom, which she related to me) reckoned that "pitching a fit" was a waste of energy that could be better spent on pitching a tent and have a glass of tea. lol..I can remember many stories about this elderly woman that my mom loved so much. I wish I could have known her.

Blessings,
Terri