Hi Guys,

Anybody every heard of Eric William Baron vonAnderseck Th.D., D.D.

I have been reading through his Doctoral Thesis, and the words "mind boggling" come to mind. And yet there is a real attraction to some of what he is saying. I must admit that a lot of what he says, as well as a lot of what some of you on this website say, goes straight over my head. So I thought I would introduce you guys to him. I would love it if somebody could read some of his Thesis and tell me if it makes any sense to them. I will give two links, the first is to the start of his Thesis Start and the second is to the final chapter which made a lot more sense to me and I am sure anybody could comment on as it doesn't contain much of the heavy scientific formulas of the rest of his thesis Last Chapter

Hope this interests someone, I would love to know what you guys think.

I just skimmed it, Jacques, and was unable to connect with the language or understand what he was trying to do. I'm sure that once one enters into the approach he's taking and becomes familiar with some of his terminology, there's a lot there to chew on.

What is it that attracts you to what he is saying?

And if there's anything we're talking about here that you'd like clarified, don't hesitate to ask.

Primarily it was the fact that he identifies the lack in so many of the approaches to spiritual transformation in Christ. It seems, that from his point of view he has indentified reasons for this lack, which he tries to explain theologically as well as scientifically and biologically.

If his results really do lead to a closer relationship with Christ and true spiritual transformation then I am ALL FOR IT!!! if not, well then I have broadened my knowledge bank slightly from reading some of his stuff

Much Love in the Lord Jesus
Jacques

P.S. concerning some of the stuff spoken about here, I think it is mostly a matter of vocabulary and jargon, which I am busy learning through spending time of this site, thanks for all the valuable input on shalomplace.

I suppose nobody wants to bite
I know, its a lot of reading
would have enjoyed interacting with somebody, but okay

Jacques, I'm on vacation for the next couple of weeks, with only limited time to be checking in on things. Then there's that stack of books I'm supposed to be going through to prepare for a couple of classes I'm teaching this Fall. Maybe someone will take you up on the offer, here. Keep going, and let us know what you find helpful.

Here is a short formula based on what I have read of the Thesis.

Biblical Christianity Promises X
Modern Christianity cannot/does not produce X
instead it produces Y

Modern Christianity therefore comes up with Theologies and doctrines to explain why we don't experience X and develops programs to try to achieve X

The programs and Theologies do not produce X, but produce Y.

Modern Christianity then develops the J theory called the journey mask.

The journey mask tells us that we do not experience X because X is in the future at the end of the journey. We then spend our whole lives engaged in the journey. And we die without every experiencing X.

Biblical Christianity = X
Modern Christianity Y = J = Y

Dr. Von Anderseck says that he has discovered the way to re-establish X in modern Christianity without producing Y or J.

If this is true I think he has made an amazing discovery. Which of course he does not claim to have discovered, rather he claims God has done this.

That lays it all out quite clearly, Jacques. Thanks.

I sense a few possible "straw men" hanging around in his characterizations of modern Christianity, however -- just a hunch. And how can one be so sure that they have such a clear reading of "Biblical Christianity," like there was only one version thereof which can be boiled down to "X."

This is all very much what biblical fundamentalists do, of course. They claim to be giving us pure, un-adulterated, undefiled Christian teaching, and contrast it with the mainline churches, as though to show that the latter have strayed. Never mind that fundamentalist preacher A eventually disagrees with preacher B and goes off and starts his own Church. And never mind Christ's promise that the Spirit would be with the Church until the end of time . . . that the way they did things in the 1st century was not meant to be frozen in time.

How do you see Dr. Von Anderseck avoiding these pitfalls, especially that of setting up an equivalency between his understanding and God's perspective?

Hey Phil,

Here is some of my attraction, as part of his Thesis he interviewed people across denominational and non-denominational lines, and found that in all these churches Faith participants received certain promises based on engagement of faith protocols. These promises were common:

1. Christ would rule in your heart.

2. The Spirit of God would help and empower your walk with God

3. Faith and love would grow strong.

4. I will know God.

5. I will live free from sin.

6. Ability to show God�s mercy and goodness to others.

7. Ability to let go of emotional wounds.

8. Intimate worship will give you peace.

9. You are pleasing to God.

10. I will fulfill God�s purpose for my life.

Asked whether or not they had achieved these targeted goals, 100% of the Christians surveyed submitted a negative response. Instead, they reported that while they strived to live free from sin they struggled with guilt, shame, and remorse.When they read in the Bible that God said, �Be ye holy for I am holy,� they felt convicted and challenged that they should be holy, but said that they received no faith education on how that could take place on a daily basis. Not able to reach the bar, they continued to live under the burden of sin, which translated into frustration and confusion. This negative faith outcome is further compounded by the many Journey Masks, which promised to allow them to �journey towards� these goals. The journey, however, only produced an unstable Christianity that is continuously in flux.

Here were some of the experiences and results of those interviewed. (In my opinion I could find many more who would strongly agree).

A. During prayer I experienced: �During prayer I would think about how much I had sinned against God and be in awe of His providing a way for my sins to be forgiven. This gave me a temporary sense of peace and serenity.�

B. During meditation and reflection I experienced: �Hope. I saw the power of God and the faith of others. I felt like I could now turn to a life of pleasing God instead of always falling short.�

C. Reading inspirational poems I experienced: �While reading inspiration poems I would experience a sense of connectedness with God. These things drew upon my emotions and made me feel sentimental.�

D. Singing hymns I experienced: �I experienced a sense of �awe� about God. Realizing just how big and wonderful the love of God is. Nothing too big or too small for Him. Those moments where not lasting, as I exited the church doors that feeling of emptiness resurfaced.�

The fleeting experience of awe or peace was common. When asked if these experiences were sustained, 100% of those surveyed returned a negative reply, which typically sounded like this:

a. �Even though I experienced these things in prayer, reading poems, meditating and reflecting on scripture, and singing hymns they did not last I would go right back into confusion and not knowing what to do. These experiences did not remove the many paradoxes I experienced concerning the many different belief systems of Christianity.�



b. �Emotions welling up, sometimes into tears, considering various lyrics that were applicable�.gratitude, thankfulness�.sometimes desire for more of Jesus, esp. during songs like �Hungry��.I received moments of peace�a sense of connectedness and all�s well�As I saw others on their faces and knees before the Lord, worshipping, I felt a sense of community, like my heart belonged� That time of prayer brought peace, there was that moment of awe, but it did not last, satisfy, or move me any closer to Jesus Christ�those times did not bring physical, emotional or Spiritual healing�[I faced the] SAME problems, same old nature reverted to, same wrong thoughts, same wrong desires, same guilt�..same merry-go-round with no way out/off��



c. �That time of prayer brought peace, there was that moment of awe, but it did not keep my soul from wandering, searching for truth; where could I find it? Something solid and dependable. Even the style of prayer changed with the doctrines used, pleading the blood, binding the devil, or crying endlessly hoping he [God] would see the distress.�

When asked about the kinds of roadblocks that were perceived as hindrances to program sustainability typical responses reflected negatively upon spiritual rituals that habitually performed below expectation and produced contradictions. Survey respondents pointed towards lack of tangible change, lack of direction, lack of doctrinal clarity, and lack of progress:

a. �Rituals that were suppose to mean something, but didn't. Communion was suppose to remind us of Christ's sacrifice and that acknowledgement alone was suppose to be life changing, but it wasn't. Being baptized was suppose to be life changing, but it wasn't. Listening to sermons and attending church was suppose to nourish and feed the people, but it didn't last. When you look for a touch, and inspiration to carry you, it will never last because God planned so much more than just a postcard. The interpretation of scripture was the greatest downfall. Even if you had all the word origins and knew the intellectual meaning behind every word, it was still hidden in how to apply it.�



b. �My conscience cried out that I was living a lie.�



c. �Lack of any real motivation to continue. The decision of accepting Jesus Christ seemed a large one to make... then once the decision was made, nothing really changed��



d. �I wasn't able to figure it out and there weren't any people willing to go into that kind of conversation without changing the subject.�



e. �The roadblocks were the very doctrine of church authority, church loyalty. Also the need to keep busy with outward acts of goodness and service were emphasized so much so that the strong impression was that God was not pleased unless you participated in everything most of the time.�



f. �Everything that I knew wasn�t working. I became more and more aggressive with �taking every thought captive� and �placing all things at the feet of the Lord� but I knew I wasn�t making ground.�

He then surveys those who are engaged in his IDCCST and proves 100% success rate. IDCCST middle of page (table 4)

Pretty good stats, IF he is right.

I tried, Jacques, but "mind-boggling" is indeed an apt description. This is some of the most dense stuff I have ever tried to decipher. Is there a place where he outlines simply the elements of IDCCST or whatever it is? I mean, what are we supposed to DO?
Revkah

Jacques, thanks for your generous response above. I'll start with just the first 10, here, then eventually continue, as time permits.

These first 10 statements are mostly fine, IMO, and I think most Christian denominations would still stand by them. Problems might arise if one is very absolutist about them, however. . . e.g., if the sure sign of conversion is that one is "free from emotional wounds" without a trace ever showing again. That doesn't seem to be the way it happens as the healing process entails an ongoing release of blocked material by the unconscious and ongoing integration by the Ego. This must needs happen in space and time; we do not receive and instantaneously formed and integrated Ego.

Re. #5, living free from sin. This is theoretically possible, but it didn't happen -- not even in the early Church. There are many reasons why this is so, none of which impugn God's goodness and mercy. Suffice it to say that human freedom remains intact and until we are gifted with the full vision of God, we can become distracted and "backslide" to some extent. It was for this reason that the early Church made distinctions between serious sin and venial sin, used penetential rites in the liturgy, formulated a process for reconciliation of sinners, etc.

The rest of the top 10 seem OK, but I'd be really cautious about latching onto a view that holds that one hasn't really committed to Christ if there is still emotional pain hanging around, and even occasional sin. Anyone who claims to the contrary is probably enormously deluded.

Hi Guys,

I feel enormously disapointed in myself....again. I have once again allowed myself to become entangled in something without the discernment to see it for what it was. I really feel like a boat tossed about by the wind.

I don't know what is wrong with me!

I found the following website last night about a group who have had really bad experiences with IDCCST and the people who started it. Conquering love
This is not the first time this has happened to me. Within a week I was ready to change all my views, doctrine and life to the pattern and theology of this guy and I didn't even know him. Seriously upset with myself

It happens, Jacques. Episodes like this are all part of learning what one believes, and why. If it's helped to clarify a few things for you, that's good.

You can see how difficult it is to go with the Bible only as the basis for coming to a comprehensive doctrine. The Bible was never meant to be a koranic-type extra-ecclesial document. It does express core Christian beliefs and values, but these are part of a larger tradition that continued to engage the world beyond the first century.

If you'd like some suggestions on how to proceed in clarifying your doctrinal perspective, maybe we could discuss that for awhile. It would be interesting to hear what other forum members have to share.

That would be cool Phil, open to hear anything you have to say

Why not start by writing your own creed . . . what you believe about God, Jesus, salvation, etc.

You might also take a traditional statement like the Apostles' Creed or Nicene Creed and see where you are with it.

Check out this thread on the Phoenix Affirmations that I started recently. That's another nice summary.

Then there's the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which every Christian ought to have as a reference, even if they're not Catholic. It's a superb compilation of teaching that almost any Christian group could go along with -- at least 98% of the way.

Jacques, there is nothing wrong with you. Change is a natural part of our growth but every change has its own contraction. The struggle is always between the old and the new. The new development is insecure and uncomfortable at the beggining. This is why we have difficulty to leave our comfortable area. Innocence and open heart is very crucial in this process. Most importantly, whatever happen on periferi trust Christ always. At last he is the only one who save us. In my experience after my interaction with Christ I almost left everything behind me. This includes friends, family, place and work. It was painful to choose. The purification process I'm in is very intense to the degree I can't work since 2005. Christ provide my daily needs miraculiously.

Much love to you

Hi Phil,Grace,

Really enjoyed the phoenix affirmations, pretty much agree with all of them. Haven't checked out the catholic catechism yet.

My problem Phil, is that I have studied Theology (am currently doing my honours degree). At a Baptist Theological college. I have for a long time known what I believe about most things and have a creed of such. The thing is that every time I encounter something or someone who makes a semi-convincing argument that I am wrong I begin to doubt myself.

I think the reason for this is that I have concerns about my doctrine and I think that instead of linking salvation with faith and grace, I link it with understanding (sounds like i am a bit of a gnostic ). I am always so worried that I am wrong and therefore I am decieving myself into thinking I am in relationship with God. Not even my own personal encounters with God have helped me avoid this, as when I begin to doubt I think perhaps I have made it all up in my mind.

So, on a good day I know exactly what I believe, but on a bad day I loose my foundation (which I know is Christ, but doubt whether I have made him my foundation when I enounter things/people that say I haven't).

To give a small example, imagine I was a real gnostic and believed that I had made Christ my foundation, but later found out that in fact I was wrong. Was I then never in relationship with him. Did my error keep me from the real God. My current and usual Theology says that God would see my heart and then yes, but when I am in Crisis I begin to doubt.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH?!!!!!!!!!

Grace,

thank you for your testimony! Love to hear of God's providence. How does it work out for you on a practical level?

Jacques, what if you reverse your approach? As you alluded faith and grace must come first before theology, bible study, community etc. All of these things are there to support our faith not to create it. When the foundation of Christ�s presence is based upon faith then we began to see the beauty of diversity in Christianity. We have only one body, the resurrected and risen body of Christ. This body is both universal and personal. Everybody who enters in this universal body no matter which denomination they belong have one unique feature. That unique feature is the spirit of Christ works among us and it is recognizable by every member of Christ�s body. The body of Christ is a very tangible thing. It is a separate stream of energy within the Earth�s consciousness which we can unite with, making it part of our own consciousness. The more we surrender to Christ the more our individuality unites with Christ. This unification can only occur if we have a pure understanding of the Christ (faith). Once we enter into the body of Christ through the direct acceptance of Christ, a continual process of purification occurs. The purification process is aimed to cleanse us from our accumulated sin inorder to embody the most pure energy of Christ. The purification process is possible because of the blood of Christ and it works by itself through grace, no human effort is involved in it.

In my case the purification process has been very intense. Since 2004 I became very sensitive to the unseen spirits. I was bombarded by the existence of dense energies almost in each and every person and this makes my life difficult to live as I used to. Through this purification process I�m learning to surrender many things in my life. The more I�m willing to surrender the more I feel comfortable to the ongoing process of purification but for the world I appear to be odd because I don�t please the way of the world. In practical life this choice between the world and Christ is very difficult. This is what it makes the purification process painful. My current situation is much better than for example a year ago. My ability to resist dense energies has been increased and this makes life easier. The more I surrender the more Christ grows in me. This means dense energies gradually will not disturb me.

Thanks Grace, I always tell myself that I need to do this, but then I find myself fumbling, but I will try!!! again . Your post raised some questions for me.

What is the difference between angels, demons and energies. What is this dense energy you describe and why did becoming a Christian make you more sensitive to these dense energies rather than protect you from them. How do you see the energies in people and is it different in Christians and non-Christians?

How is sin related to energies, and when we become Christians, are we instantly changed and given a new heart and become new creations, or is it gradual. I know the purification process is gradual, but is the new creation instant as the bible seems to indicate?

I know I ask a lot of questions

I will try to answer your questions.

First of all I became Christian when I was baptized at infant age not in year 2004. What happened in year 1998 and 2004 was a direct experience of God. You know we all are surrounded by subtle energies. It is the vibration of that subtle energy which manifest in our physical bodies. More or less we all embody dense energies. Some people�s subtle energy is very dense depending upon their perception, feelings, thoughts, life style etc. For instance, those who are very stressed in their life they have this dense energy. So, it is this subtle energy which disturbed me when I feel it. Important to remember is that this dense energy of people doesn't indicate the person is evil possessed or not. It s only the reflection of their current state. They can be very friendly, spiritually oriented and kind although they have this dense energy. If evil energy is in the presence of the person that is another thing. In such a case not only I'm disturbed I can't even stand in proximty of that person. On the other hand if I meet deeply religious people (it has nothing to do with the involvement of religious organisation) I can feel closeness. Unfortunately, it is very rarely I encounter this type of people. Now you asked why I�m not protected. Very good question.

The purpose of purification is to cleanse these dense energies from our consciousness. These dense energies by nature attract with each other. When the purification process sets on at higher level we become sensitive to these energies. But since we also embody dense energies we attract other person�s dense energies. This is why I felt uncomfortable when I found myself in the proximity of energies that are denser than mine. This has been an issue for me. It has been difficult to understand. What is going on is transmutation. First Christ purified us at individual level means he cleanse us our own dense energies. It is important at this phase to avoid other dense energies. Bringing time in monastery is an ideal place. Because prayer, worship and meditation nourishes the process while involving with other dense energies create conflict. It takes time until we are able to stand completely the dense energies. Surrendering to the will of God surely facilitate the process. The ability to hold our own level of purity in the proximity of denser energies occurs when the world has no further hold over us. At higher level we are protected by Christ. It is during this process of purification that we undergo attack from Satan. Ask any serious Christian they all tell you they experience attack. We are attacked not because we are not protected but because we belong to Christ. These forces have access in us through our lower nature and our nature can only be purified by Christ. Purification is forgiveness. Christ forgives our sin and purify us inorder to reflect his father�s image.

It doesn�t matter weather we are Christian or not we reflect our nature. As Christians we have the advantage being purified by Christ. But here the level is different. Some Christians are at higher advanced level and some are at very lower stage. It is good that we Christians try to imitate Christ in our daily life but the main work is done by grace. When we accept Christ as our personal saviour we enter into his stream. At higher level we are saved, we belong to Christ. No one separate us from Christ. Our acceptance of Christ marked the beginning of purification. Through this process, a new being comes into existence, a new life begins and we become born of spirit. Although the purification process takes time as bible tells us through Christ we are born newly.

Thank you Grace, that helped a lot. I suppose it is like being around people and reacting like they are to a situation. You may not be like them/react like them usually, but like attracts like and you gravitate towards their mode of existence. Perhaps you are experiencing this on the energy level, while others just experience it on a relational/psychic/emotional level. Just a thought

Exactly, like attracts like. Until our own dense energy purified we are bounded to attract other energies lower than us which hamper the process. The situation is similar to a person who undergoes special treatment. The patient must fulfil the treatment before he/she return to normal life.

Do you actually see the energies with your physical eyes, what do they look like? What does the world look like?

I view our discussion here on Shalom seriously. Jacques, please correct me if I�m wrong it seems you are asking this question out of curiosity. If there is a real need I�m willing to tell you what I know but I don�t see what the benefit you gain from knowing how dense energies look like.

Well, when I was involved in drugs and the occult, I first began to understand that there may be energies beyond what we normally see. Through reiki, LSD, meditation and breathing we began to stimulate these energies which we could see when we were on LSD and other drugs. I am just wondering if the energies were the same. To me anyway it looked like trillions of little dots that move a bit like water. There was a sense at the very end of my involvement with these energies that it would be possible to see the whole world at this level all the time. But after conversion and putting away these practices the energies no longer appeared. I was just wondering if visually I was seeing energies or maybe not, I thought if you described it to me I would perhaps be able to judge my experience through yours. Recently I am trying to re-evaluate some of the stuff that happened to me, but I don't often find people who may have shared the same experiences. I am also trying to understand what your life experience is like. Yes some is curiosity, but I am interested in people and so I love to hear of the experiences of people (I am a type 5 eneagram, I love to observe ). But only answer what you feel comfortable with.