Actually WC, in reviewing this board, I see I should amend my viewpoint about the K and how the "vessel" either effects or doesn't effect its flow. I think, based on what you and others have posted, it probably also depends on where a person is in the K process - i.e. a person's physical attributes (like nervous system development due to hereditary or imbringin) may work for or against them in the beginning of the K, particularly it if is an uncomfortable energy experience. Perhaps as a person works to purify and refine all levels once the K occurs will very much impact how the K travels. Given Stephen's last post and my own experience, I would say that something in my system over the years, and I can't pinpoint what physically, for example, has changed to accommodate the K energy more comfortably (though even that doesn't happen at times.)But then again, the K does at times seem to travel with no reason, positive or negative in its impact.

So I plead guity to jumping the gun and forming my own generalities that don't really hold up in the finer arguments that have been presented on this board.

" . . . I feel that the reorganisation effected by the Kun leads to a certain amount of psychological imbalance which is then slowly ironed out by the resources imparted from a well adjusted development."

That is a very interesting way of looking at it. The internal developmental resources understandably take much time to accomodate these often abrupt, traumatic changes, somewhat like the body recovers from a serious wound.

Linda:

It's been a good, open discussion. Interesting how when we agree to disagree other meanings are then possible.

Yes, very good exchanges!

I'm still left wondering what K has to do with the "evolution of consciousness," however. This also raises questions about why it's latent "at the base of the spine" or wherever? Is it a potentiality of the future, awaiting some golden future when human bodies and psyches will be more balanced and attuned to its powerful currents? Or (and here's my deeper intuition), is it a power that flowered beautifully in the first spiritual humans, but has (mercifully) fallen to dormancy lest the sin-wounded creatures that we are be fried and consigned to lunacy? Maybe the story of the expulsion from Eden and that angel with the flashing sword guarding the way to re-enter is about the fallen K?

I note here that in some of the Gospels, Jesus states that he's come to bring the Holy Spirit and fire. There are also traditions of desert hermits advocating a stage beyond spiritual conversion/living . . . that one should become fire. Descriptions of the Taboric Light (deep purple, most soothing) and the meditative methods of the monks at Mount Athos also suggest a K development in the context of mature Christian living.

I know that people can live in union with Christ in the Spirit without awakening K; that's a given. We know that the converse is true as well, and that's often a disaster. What I really wonder about often is if the life in the Spirit isn't meant, at some point, to awaken the K process and allow it to achieve its potential in transforming the body-mind to higher, enlightenment consciousness. This would be in the context of the Christian spiritual journey and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, of course.

For myself, I can say that this "catching fire" is something I wanted very much. I'm not sure if the desire helped to precipitate the awakening of K, or if the stirring K enflamed the desire. But, even with all the aches, pains, and plain old wierdness, I wouldn't want to get rid of this for anything. I am a much better man--even a better Christian--because of K. There has been no shame, angst/anxiety, resentment, guilt, etc. in my being for 16 years now and that's a freedom I wish all could know.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not perfect, and I still do sin--even stupidly eating the wrong things and willfully pushing myself in an unhealthy way, at times. And I DO pay a price for that; sometimes it takes days to balance out again. Serves me right, I know. But I am free of most of the psycho-spiritual burdens which plague our poor, fallen race, and I credit the Spirit and K for this! I also know something of enlightenment consciousness as a "natural" state--one that I can literally tune into almost at will. This is marvelous! And I hope it's in our future en masse. But I can't really see us going there without Christ as the foundation of our lives. I shudder to think how the K would go without him and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Phil:

That's a beautiful and insightful context for K, dormant/fallen (literally) for reasons other than its own and in need of the Holy Spirit in order to re-emerge and transform physical life into the cosmic temple it was meant to be. Something stirs inside me, perhaps St. Paul's creation moaning for the revelation of the sons of God, in reading your description.

Phil,

I love a lot of what you said in your last post and can testify to some of the benefits you mentioned. I would, however, like to know your take on the negative astral and energetic influences which so blight the process for the likes of Linda and myself, with the "evolution of consciousness" in mind. You mentioned previously "the body's innate pantheism". Would you regard the negative influences as manifestations of the wrong doors to the subtle dimensions being opened? How much of this is the result of the K taking the wrong paths? Are there more "karmic" influences at work?

1) To the extent there are both material and immaterial/formative aspects to our integral being as humans and to the extent that this is manfest 2) in our experiences of body and soul and in our experiences of 3)informational/material and 4) phenomenal/immaterial consciousness and

to the extent that, in our fallen state, our a) bodies, b) souls, c) informational/awareness consciousness and d)phenomenal/experiential consciousness are influenced by formative, informative, deformative, reformative and transformative dynamics --- then, perhaps we can conceive of how different aspects of our fallen nature can avail themselves of a more redeemed status while others avail themselves of a more fallen status? Getting them all in alignment in their more redeemed realization at the same time may be quite the trick due to our profound experience of our fallen natures.

Our experience of redemption, ergo, can be somewhat assymetrical?

For instance, if we view chi as a formative (and informational) immaterial entity that interacts with our formative immaterial soul and if we view an awakening of chi as an experience of, or as a participation in, a more redeemed status (a more fully realized potentiality) of just one formative aspect of our integral body-soul nature, whatever that might be (astrally, subtly or such), then we can conceive of situations where this "redeemed status of our subtle form" exists with or without a more fully "redeemed status of our phenomenal consciousness". (Problems could thus ensue and dramatically).

At the same time, the material aspects of our being, both our material body and material consciousness (senses, etc) may be in various states of deformation or even disrepair (in our experience of our fallen nature) or in various states of wholeness and health (ahem, w.c., and, of development ) -. This makes for a lot of possibilities and perhaps accounts for many differences in people's experiences of chi, both between different individuals and within a given individual through time?

Because intentionality and visualization, as integral aspects of both our material and immaterial consciousness, so profoundly affect chi, it is not difficult to imagine that coupling an awakened and more fully realized/redeemed subtle body/form with a less redeemed, less fully realized phenomenal/experiential consciousness, could be disastrous. It is not difficult to see how it could also be a potentially sublime experience to most fully realize the more fully redeemed status of all of the various aspects of our human nature: 1) material body 2) formative body 3) material consciousness (sensory faculties) 4) immaterial consciousness (intellectual faculties). These are not separate entities but integral aspects but I don't think all of these aspects participate equally in the various fallen/redeemed, healthy/diseased, developed/undeveloped conditions, for better or for worse, of one another. (I can thus conceive of many combinations: fallen/fallen/fallen/fallen; redeemed/redeemed/redeemed/redeemed; and every permutation in between.) All of these aspects involve the created realm of form and matter (not to be conceived with a cartesian dualism).

Ultimately, we know that however wholistically we nurture and experience our journey toward a fully redeemed status, that death and sin still have an influence, ergo, something else needs to happen eschatologically for us to transist as redeemed creatures. It is already happening whenever we experience redemption but it clearly is an unfolding (as we continue to groan). This transcendence of the spatial-temporal-energetic-material realm by the eternal realm begins now (the Kingdom can be within you, as Phil has beautifully testified to) and is also to come. Whatever transformative work we do now will not have to be done later. On with it! Toward our End! More properly, whatever transformative work (purgative and illuminative) is accomplished in us and for us in this temporal existence won't need to be done outside of the temporal (in the eternal) realm inasmuch as we have one ontological foot in and one out, due to fallen-reeemed status. Unitive glimpses, now, can be so ... so ... so ... whatever ... ... that special afflictions can be necessitated to keep us anchored in this realm to attend to our ongoing transformational needs (in this cosmic boot camp) or to attend to similar needs of others, an attendance which requires our co-creative cooperation (what a privilege to pro-create spiritually and participate in the nurturance and transformation of souls!).

Please don't take this as a pedantic and dogmatic rendering. It could all be incorrect, metaphysically. I offer it as a heuristic and for its evocative potential, in the spirit of brainstorming. It is an essentialistic rendering in an attempt to better grasp some of our existential experiences, which defy explication in our traditional catechesis. The Church will better understand this through time. So will we.

Don't let this dry musing distract the rich personal sharing in this thread. I thank you all for those depthful and generous postings.

pax,
jb

JB - Thanks, you've given me a whole new paradigm to work with!One translation that works for me if I bend around what you've written a bit - I am fallen/assymetrical/purgative/immaterial. Sure as hell beats Carolyn Myss and her kabbula-chakra system as a way to describe my journey, and certainly more poetic than any Myers-Brigss label!

Thanks, Linda.

As far as the "chakra system" goes versus the more classical conceptualizations I set forth, there are at least two dynamics at work.

In one dynamic, many who use the chakra system, paradigmatically, do not take it literally but do affirm that it well articulates a very real experience of very true subjective states, which presumably have their objective counterparts in the formative/immaterial realm. So, in that sense, all I have done is to take the very same phenomenological data and to translate it into a more classical Christian language ( of the thomistic aristotelian metaphysics of causation and the spirituality of the purgative, illuminative and unitive).

In another dynamic, and it grows out of the first, because the thomistic aristotelian metaphysics is both more discriminating and more comprehensive in its description of reality, drawing more distinctions and crafting more nuances, it can be more versatile and nimble in dealing with the complex phenomena of material and immaterial reality than the chakra system and hence can be more rigorous in its phenomenological methodology. It can help avoid confusion between the conceptual and the ontological, for instance. This is important because I think it is precisely the confusion between the conceptual and the ontological, between the formative and the efficient causations, between the essentialistic descripton and the existential experience, between the concept describing an essence and the very act of existing, and such that results in heretical interpretations of Eastern spiritual technologies by some Christians. The problem is, although the thomistic aristotelian method is more rigorous, versatile, nimble or what have you, not much has been done to articulate/translate Eastern phenomena into this classical and western paradigm. That's why work like Arraj, building on Maritain, is so important. There needs to be a more robust western treatment of the phenomena of chi, kundalini, natural mysticsm, etc or folks will draw incorrect ontological conclusions that have profound implications for how we approach the life of prayer, the transformatve journey and the living out of the Christian Mysteries. This new catechesis is very new. We are witnessing its early embryonic growth even if Merton and Maritain were there near its conception.

I think we need to parse our definitions and choose our words carefully. For that reason, I think it is best that qi/chi be considered nonenergetically as a formative causal/informational aspect that has its influence at the nexus of our immaterial and material existence. A chi awakening then might be considered a positive change (redeemed status) in some aspect of our formative nature where body and soul, material and immaterial join. (And such a body/soul is indeed a useful habitation for spirits, Holy and un) That it would generate epiphenomenal experiences that are both analogous to energy flows, subjectively, and that sometimes even result in bioelectrical currents, objectively, might then be expected. Just ruminating. I stand to be corrected.

pax,
jb

I recall having a conversation, earlier this year, with some reiki practitioners. I recall our discussing the need to be more precise in our conversations about reiki with others and about ensuring that we remain mindful of such distinctions as truly exist between prayer and reiki, between the Holy Spirit (perhaps as Uncreated Energy) and chi and/or created energies, between conventional and complementary/alternative medicine, etc We draw these distinctions not to set any concept or approach over against another but to properly unite them. The thrust of this conversation seems pertinent here. I had some good articles and weblinks to reinforce this but can't remember where I e-stashed these materials. At any rate, I am really scratching my head about the use of energy paradigms, subtle or otherwise, to describe chi. There really does seem, to me, to be much merit in conceptualizing chi/qi as formative/informational/nonenergetic. Still, this raises interesting questions such as what might be the difference between a morphogenetic field of information that acts only somewhat locally and fields of global consciousness that act more globally but apparently still spatio-temporally and still yet something like reiki, which through distant healing, for instance, could be nonlocal. The "structures"/undetectable "fields" , therefore, of immaterial reality are likely multifaceted and by no means lend themselves to straightforward analogies with the physical world that they coinhabit and co-influence (hey, I like that - coinfluence, another neologism by jb). There could be many planes/dimensions of immaterial existence that are more vs less immersed/connected to or constrained by spatial-temporal existence. Thus we speak of chi, of kundalini, of reiki, of morphogenetic fields, of global consciousness, etc , all immaterial but "exerting" their influences more vs less, locally vs globally? or, maybe, more properly, none of them constrained spatio-temporally but each of them manifesting more or less locally or globally as associated with the material objects that they influence and are influenced by. It is interesting, though, to see how a whole lexicon has built upon around undetectable forms and how it does discriminate between them in meaningful ways that people understand based, not just on a priori essentialistic descriptions but upon a posteriori existential experiences translated into phenomenological accounts that resonate between people. Hmmmmmmm If I obfuscated all of this, then perhaps I've made my most valuable contribution. As they say, we need to simplify to understand but don't forget to be skeptical about the simplification.

One reason I lean toward a more rigorous definition of terms is that I think it is important to be consistent in the dialogue between science and phenomenology, science and mysticism, science and metaphysics, science and theology, and to devise more rigorously controlled statistical methodologies that can lead toward better bodies of indirect evidence from which we, and the skeptics, can draw ever more compelling inferences. It is not useful not to acknowledge emphatically, at the outset, that we are not going to be dealing with detectable material and energetic aspects of reality or with empirically demonstrable proofs but, rather, that we will be dealing with immaterial and nonenergetic aspects of reality that we can only infer but which may yield very compelling practical proof (not to mention healing and wholeness of humanity). We need rigor in service of truth, both in our articulations and in our methods. If there are any manifest energetic aspects to chi, then they are likely epiphenomenal and/or correlates (which is to say not causal aspects of reality).

pax,
jb

JB,

Clearly, you elegantly address every aspect of what I think most contributing to this board would admit is the dawning of a new energy paradigm. And I, for one, would have benefitted greatly in my K experience (particularly its brutal roots) if the psychologists and medical doctors, not to mention the Christian church, even the eastern "k" experts I went to, could think in any of the more objective criteria you set out.

Instead, the initial interpretation (and probably continuing) from all factions was completely negative and deeply scarring. I think you have great material for something like the Journal of Transformational Psychology, where contributors have at least tried to make sense of K and taken the scare factor out for the patients profiled ( most of whom have suffered greatly).

In my first two years of the K burn, I spent many hours buried in a medical library researching any aspect of K I could find documented and believe me, there wasn't much.

On another note, Stephen, I never received your email. (My profile doesn't supply a link.) Could you email to Phil and he can forward to me if you want to follow up?

Stephen, sorry for the delay in replying to your questions. I defer to JBs brilliant reflections as my reply. . . . . . especially the point about the fallen/redeemed aspects of our levels of being (or however one wants to put it) being simulataneoulsy wounded and free. This admits all sorts of possibilities, including experiences that feel like tears where energies run rampant and cause pains while co-existing with sublime unitive states. That seems to be the reality whether one uses the language of chakras and subtle bodies or a more philosophical/theological approach which emphasizes the spiritual soul and its complicated relationships with matter, energy, and inferior forms/souls. Does this speak to your question?

JB, I second Linda's remark about your reflections being publishable and I think the Journal of Transpersonal Psychology is a good recommendation. I've got to give it a second and third reading to more fully grasp the implications of what you're sharing.

It is not useful not to acknowledge emphatically, at the outset, that we are not going to be dealing with detectable material and energetic aspects of reality or with empirically demonstrable proofs but, rather, that we will be dealing with immaterial and nonenergetic aspects of reality that we can only infer but which may yield very compelling practical proof (not to mention healing and wholeness of humanity). We need rigor in service of truth, both in our articulations and in our methods. If there are any manifest energetic aspects to chi, then they are likely epiphenomenal and/or correlates (which is to say not causal aspects of reality).

I've been under the impression that there are "manifest energestic aspects to chi" and that it's measured simply as electrical flow through the body. There are all sorts of instruments which can measure this, and it seems that the use of needles in acupuncture has an influence on this flow (as do many other things, including our thoughts). It's a bio-electricity . . . i.e., electro-magnetism that is a consequence of metabolic processes. It flows through the nerves, of course, but also throughout all the cells. The possibility of the existence of nadis also suggests a subtle sub-system through which the energy "wormholes" across areas, perhaps (as you noted) interacting with non-energetic formative influences. Etc. etc. What I can say for sure is that the *experience* of chi is real, and wherever it goes, there is more life--unless too much goes there, of course, then there can be damage.

jb,

Thanks ever so much for this(your first post in particular)!

I may print it out and pin it to the door of my house!

Phil, no worries! Speaks volumes!

I've been under the impression that there are "manifest energestic aspects to chi" and that it's measured simply as electrical flow through the body. There are all sorts of instruments which can measure this, and it seems that the use of needles in acupuncture has an influence on this flow (as do many other things, including our thoughts). It's a bio-electricity . . . i.e., electro-magnetism that is a consequence of metabolic processes. It flows through the nerves, of course, but also throughout all the cells. The possibility of the existence of nadis also suggests a subtle sub-system through which the energy "wormholes" across areas, perhaps (as you noted) interacting with non-energetic formative influences. Etc. etc. What I can say for sure is that the *experience* of chi is real, and wherever it goes, there is more life--unless too much goes there, of course, then there can be damage.

Chi, qi, prana, vital energy, life energy and such, in my view, should be categorized as informational and immaterial and, hence, nonenergetic and therefore might best be described metaphysically and not physically. They would then belong to that part of the great chain of being that includes such putative aspects of being as formative causation, entelechy, implicate order, morphogenetic fields, phenomenal consciousness and such. Such nonphysical aspects would profoundly influence physical reality even though they are part of a tacit dimension of reality, a dimension which, however unobtrusive, is very efficacious.

Think of soul parts as somewhat analogous to body parts. Now, think of an aspect of our soul that metaphorically resembles a geometric plane. Now, picture this plane as a landscape. Envision this landscape as a flat Kansas plain. Think of it, next, as Texas hill country or the Himalayans or Rockies if you'd like.

Imagine this landscape in as many geographic configurations as you like.

Next, imagine pouring an enormous amount of water onto these landscapes and picture the water as cascading down the mountains, as snaking like a lazy Louisiana bayou, as lying dark and stagnant and dormant under marsh reeds, as white water rapids of the Colorado and such. The water adapts itself, more or less, energetically, based, of course, on gravity, but also based on the nonenergetic, unobtrusive, but very formative and very efficacious influences of the contours of the surrounding landscape.

Change the landscape and the behavior of the water changes.

I conceive of the human will and of phenomenal consciousness and of human intentionality and of human visualization as being able to influence, for better and for worse, our human soul structure, bending and shaping and reconfiguring the metaphorical geometric inclines, slopes, y=mx+b's and such of certain aspects of our souls. There is nothing energetic, in and of itself, to the shape of our soul landscape, but, at the nexus between matter and form, between body and soul, between the water and the landscape, much is going on. The physical and biological realities and their related biochemical and magnetic and electrical aspects, like water being poured over a landscape, will be profoundly influenced by the topography of the soul, a topography that is not itself energetic but formally causative.

How does this topography change? Such a process would not, in principle, be empirically demonstrable or physically verifiable. It is my thesis, though, that human intentionality is primary in this process.

K-awakenings, K-arousals, chakras, chi, qi, prana and such are not, to me, material energies or physical forces but are, rather, products of immaterial processes whereby the topography of some aspects of the human soul are changed, in some cases by human intentionality, in others by who knows what. Change the landscape of the human soul and profound changes will be effected by otherwise undetectable, unobtrusive influences, influences for which only a body of indirect evidence can be discerned. Only very carefully designed and rigorously controlled experimentation will truly help explicate this paradigm. Even then, the experiements cannot falsify immaterial claims and yield demonstrable proof. They can support our inferences and deliver some measure of practical proof.

K-awakenings, K-arousals, chakras, chi, qi, prana and such, as products, can be considered, sometimes as end-products, sometimes as by-products and sometimes as waste-products of soul reshaping and recontouring processes. What product category applies from case to case depends on one's development, health and, most importantly, quality of intentionality. It would be fortunate if these products could be reconceptualized as resulting from immaterial, informational, nonenergetic, nonphysical, formative causal influences that derive from topographical changes in certain parts of the landscape of the expansive human soul.

Classical Christian metaphysics and spirituality, coupled with good personality psychology (Jung) can handle this. Our concepts are both discriminating enough and broad enough to deal with these processes and their products.

What, then, is going on with kundalini yoga, with pranayama, with qi gong, with reiki, etc? These are processes that, through human intentionality , change the topographical landscape of parts of the human soul, which in turn, formatively (nonenergetically) influence all manner of biophysical phenomena in the human body. The mechanism of influence, in principle, is immeasurable and undetectable and empirically indemonstrable. The resulting biophysical phenomena and their correlative subjective mental experiences are not themselves, chi, qi, kundalini, prana or any type of physical energy (or nonphysical energy or immaterial force, etc all of which are oxymoronic). Chi/qi is merely a phenomenal description of a reality that includes both process and product at that nexus between body and soul where processes entail both the material and immaterial, the physical and nonphysical. In these cases, the material is the human body with its algorithmic, computation consciousness, sense and perception. The immaterial is human intentionality with its nonlinear, nonalgorithmic phenomenal consciousness. The immaterial, here, also involves some aspect of the human soul, which I metaphorically am calling its topography but which is just its immaterial form, classically. The material also includes the biophysical events. There is a reciprocity or co-evolution or co-influence or circularity or feedback loop at work between these products and processes.

Finally, the use of the term, bioenergetic, is too facile and is unfortunate vis a vis qi and chi. Kundalini yoga and reiki and qigong are phenomenal descriptions for processes, as I described at length above, that, through human intentionality, primarily, may have as an end-result (end/by/waste-product) some epiphenomenal bioenergetic after-effects in the pre-existing physical realm of space-time-matter-energy but they have no independent being as a type of created energy in the space-time plenum. Instruments can measure epiphenomenal parts of the process but the parts they measure are not qi or chi but classical electromagnetic realities that have been scientifically explained already. It is the intentionality aspect that, as the hard problem, will continue to confound scientists and philosophers. This is a lot like studying pharmaceuticals: Chinese medicine is efficacious, at times, but why? The pragmatic response from the suffering patient's perspective is: who cares? Only those of us on internet bulletin boards care, in a way.

Again, I am just brainstorming. If I have started with any erroneous metaphysical premise, then this will come down as a house of cards. I do fully believe in my approach, however, and am grateful for your encouragement. If I would have had this paradigm prior to or during my own energy upheavals , then ...

Enough.

pax,
jb

Careful JB, your slipping into poetry . . . . and we all know where that can lead . . . .

Seriously, well-written and deeply felt descriptions. One can't resist the poetic sensibility when the soul stirs like this, and you manage to keep your head in the process (I lost mine, but that's another thread).

Thanks w.c. - I do have deeply felt and firm convictions about this and this is not a usual characteristic of my rather peripatetic existence when it comes to my metaphysical grapplings. Many intuitions have crystallized for me, lately, regarding the Catechism of Chi , my next book title, btw.