I lost my post Phil . Three hours of composing and and editing is gone. I know what I did wrong so I will not that again. I do not have enough time today to attempt to recompose my post so I will close today by saying that I understand better what it is that you are attempting to accomplish and that I will put those new parameters into the retrieval filters of the creative chew process that I use when I make a post.

Happiness would be to have another question relative to what you are doing to start the create chew process when I have time to come back for another posting moment ? Love you, tucker

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
.......
In my own experience, it sometimes seems that such exalted states of consciousness enable us to live "around" our brokenness -- even to escape from it through a kind of spiritual dissociation. What are your thoughts on this?

From what i have seen, this dissociation seems to come when one works to disconnect from
their body. I'm coming from a belief that the body is the unconscious (personal & collective).

Sorry to hear you lost your post, Tucker. What a bummer! I've found that for long ones, I do better to compose them offline in case the Internet goes screwy and loses all that work in cyber-limbo.

Mary Sue, I agree that a great deal of what goes on in the body is unconscious -- like what my liver is doing right now, for example, or how my brain is sorting through the stimuli coming into awareness. But the body includes the senses, which are part of our consciousness and our most basic means of opening to the outer world.

It wasn't the internet it was me . I went to copy and paste a part of a previous post and that put the reply box in the background. And instead of bringing it up from the background I pushed the reply button to bring it back, which resulted in clearing the first reply box to provide a new empty reply box. At that point things became non retrievable .

Phil, approaching things from a philosophical and theological stand point is why I need to read your book . From there I will be better able to correlate the mind's ability to affect the physical with the philosophical and theological approach. Like as an example your Taoist master saying that thoughts effect our health. He is absolutely right about that based on my experience with the conscious mind's and the unconscious mind's ability to effect the autonomic nervous system. Thoughts that create a positive emotional brain chemistry environment stimulate the immune system, as an example. Thoughts that create a negative brain chemistry environment shut down the immune system as another example. A long with this is that wrong thoughts can shut down other parts of your body and brain as well as shutting down your immune system.

My focus has been to directly stimulate or indirectly stimulate the parts of the body and brain that my "broken" programming has been and is shutting down with my conscious mind to keep them from being shut down.

The philosophical and theological approach understanding without the use of anything related to science. What I am attempting to do is to correlate the philosophical and theological with some of the aspects of the science that is known in today's science to give those two approaches more validity. None of what I am presenting is within the scope of what you are preparing for publishment (which apparently isn't a word ). And they won't be until I read you book.

Kundalini Issues and Spiritual Emergencies as explored from the stand point of physiology and behavioral psychology and meditation and meditative prayer experience (boy this is a hard sentence to write because it is not saying exactly what I want to say) ...

So to heck with it To be tried again later!
Love you!, tucker

Tucker,

Is there any possiblity that the fear of death you express is an actual state, i don't know if one
could say consciousness. To a medical doctor one would present themselves as being ok
but the doctor would find no heartbeat or breathing ?

Then i seem to remember some advanced Eastern teacher who
seemed to be in a state of death but not awake like the other example. A devotee cared for the body. I think in around
30 days the person was awake again having gone through an intense purification process.

Just wondering

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Sue:
Tucker,

Is there any possiblity that the fear of death you express is an actual state, i don't know if one
could say consciousness. To a medical doctor one would present themselves as being ok
but the doctor would find no heartbeat or breathing ?

Then i seem to remember some advanced Eastern teacher who
seemed to be in a state of death but not awake like the other example. A devotee cared for the body. I think in around
30 days the person was awake again having gone through an intense purification process.

Just wondering

Hi Mary Sue, I find your question an interesting question. First this fear of death can be an actual state of being. But that is only in rare cases which this Eastern teacher seems to have achieved. And what he did was to use this fear of death state to leave his body to do a "spirit walk about", so to speak. He used this fear of death state to step outside of his body, which some call an "out of body experience". I have actually done what he did the way that he did it. But I did it accidently and I had to go to God to have Him put me back inside my body because I was not anywhere near as advanced as that Eastern teacher was. Also when a person steps out of their body the respiration and heart beat of their body slows down to the point where they seem to be dead. Actually they are not dead, they are just really really close to being dead.

Love, Tucker

Sorry, I have been delayed in joining in on the
conversation. Will join in as soon as I can.

Hi, Tucker,

Sorry to be a month late in replying to your post. That's not at all bad by the standards of SP. Sometimes I've found myself continuing conversations that started five or more years ago.

I appreciate your distinction between the two kinds of fear, viz., a spiritual fear of the unknown and a psychological fear of how events might unfold on the physical.

What prompts me to write now is that I happened to come across a non-Christian quote that speaks of the first kind, the fear of the void:

"Those who hasten towards it [the Void] dare not enter, fearing to hurtle down through the void with nothing to cling to or to stay their fall. So they look to the brink and retreat."

Does that speak to you? It is from a Chinese Zen master named Huángbò Xīyùn, also spelled Huang-po Hsi-yün, and you can read more about him on his Wikipedia page.

quote:

Originally posted by Tucker:
How do you conquer a fear ("Hopelessness") that can kill you or make you very very sick, if you mess with it, without faith?

As for "conquering" fear, I would like to offer you an alternative, which is to make friends with your fear. "The Welcoming Prayer helps to dismantle the emotional programs of the false-self system and to heal the wounds of a lifetime by addressing them where they are stored -- in the body."

Read more on Contemplative Outreach's Welcoming Prayer page.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek:
Hi, Tucker,

Sorry to be a month late in replying to your post. That's not at all bad by the standards of SP. Sometimes I've found myself continuing conversations that started five or more years ago.

I appreciate your distinction between the two kinds of fear, viz., a spiritual fear of the unknown and a psychological fear of how events might unfold on the physical.

What prompts me to write now is that I happened to come across a non-Christian quote that speaks of the first kind, the fear of the void:

"Those who hasten towards it [the Void] dare not enter, fearing to hurtle down through the void with nothing to cling to or to stay their fall. So they look to the brink and retreat."

Does that speak to you? It is from a Chinese Zen master named Huángbò Xīyùn, also spelled Huang-po Hsi-yün, and you can read more about him on his Wikipedia page.

quote:

Originally posted by Tucker:
How do you conquer a fear ("Hopelessness") that can kill you or make you very very sick, if you mess with it, without faith?

As for "conquering" fear, I would like to offer you an alternative, which is to make friends with your fear. "The Welcoming Prayer helps to dismantle the emotional programs of the false-self system and to heal the wounds of a lifetime by addressing them where they are stored -- in the body."

Read more on Contemplative Outreach's Welcoming Prayer page.

Hi Derek

"The Void?" Yes I do remember those days. And there is a part of that experience that is a "falling" experience. At least relative to what I experienced with the "Void". I just took the hand of Lord Jesus and stepped off. I spent a lot of time in the "falling" state of the "Void" attempting to understand it. Eventually I quit falling and was floating suspended in "Void" totally surrounded by what seemed to be absolutely nothing. Lord Jesus told me that the object was to try to not understand it and to let it become what it becomes. I interpreted the experience as sitting quietly in the mind of God knowing that everything that I was experiencing was beyond my ability to understand. And from there I just experienced the experience without trying to understand. If you sit quietly and do not attempt to understand you overtime begin to experience cognitive leaps of understanding with each leap of understanding being bigger than the one before it. And there doesn't seem to be an end to it if you sit there long enough. Eventually this sitting quietly in the mind of God, for lack of any other term, if you do it long enough, becomes a state of being that you are in continuously.

Thank you Derek for your very constructive and functional suggestions and for the resource page. It turns out that one has to change their thought habits and that it is these thought habits that are causing the problem. Your suggestion is a very valid way of doing that!

Love, Tucker

quote:

Originally posted by Tucker:
Lord Jesus told me that the object was to try to not understand it and to let it become what it becomes. I interpreted the experience as sitting quietly in the mind of God knowing that everything that I was experiencing was beyond my ability to understand. And from there I just experienced the experience without trying to understand. If you sit quietly and do not attempt to understand you overtime begin to experience cognitive leaps of understanding with each leap of understanding being bigger than the one before it.

Thank you. That's very timely for me.

Hi Tucker

Thank you for your response. I was sorry to hear of your frightening experience with OOB.
And so glad that you were able to find your way back with God's help. I had heard there
could be serious issues with OOB.I agree that the second example is OOB. The mind/personality ? did not seem in the body. The person could not care for themselves.

The first example i don't believe is OOB. Because the mind/ego ?? is still in the body but surrendered. The person can walk around & care for the needs of their own body ect. Even go
to work ect.
As I am considering this I wonder if this could be one of the unions that Phil has said
is part of Christianity (ego /self /God). What do you think Phil, Tucker. Oh, the first
example the persons heart beat & breathe are not detectable by a simple doctor's exam.
Don't know about further testing like EKG ect.



/QUOTE]

Hi Mary Sue, I find your question an interesting question. First this fear of death can be an actual state of being. But that is only in rare cases which this Eastern teacher seems to have achieved. And what he did was to use this fear of death state to leave his body to do a "spirit walk about", so to speak. He used this fear of death state to step outside of his body, which some call an "out of body experience". I have actually done what he did the way that he did it. But I did it accidently and I had to go to God to have Him put me back inside my body because I was not anywhere near as advanced as that Eastern teacher was. Also when a person steps out of their body the respiration and heart beat of their body slows down to the point where they seem to be dead. Actually they are not dead, they are just really really close to being dead.

Love, Tucker[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Sue:
Hi Tucker

Thank you for your response. I was sorry to hear of your frightening experience with OOB.
And so glad that you were able to find your way back with God's help. I had heard there
could be serious issues with OOB.I agree that the second example is OOB. The mind/personality ? did not seem in the body. The person could not care for themselves.

The first example i don't believe is OOB. Because the mind/ego ?? is still in the body but surrendered. The person can walk around & care for the needs of their own body ect. Even go
to work ect.
As I am considering this I wonder if this could be one of the unions that Phil has said
is part of Christianity (ego /self /God). What do you think Phil, Tucker. Oh, the first
example the persons heart beat & breathe are not detectable by a simple doctor's exam.
Don't know about further testing like EKG ect.



/QUOTE]

Hi Mary Sue, I find your question an interesting question. First this fear of death can be an actual state of being. But that is only in rare cases which this Eastern teacher seems to have achieved. And what he did was to use this fear of death state to leave his body to do a "spirit walk about", so to speak. He used this fear of death state to step outside of his body, which some call an "out of body experience". I have actually done what he did the way that he did it. But I did it accidently and I had to go to God to have Him put me back inside my body because I was not anywhere near as advanced as that Eastern teacher was. Also when a person steps out of their body the respiration and heart beat of their body slows down to the point where they seem to be dead. Actually they are not dead, they are just really really close to being dead.

Love, Tucker

[/QUOTE]

Hi Mary Sue,

lets go back to your original question and have another look at it: "Is there any possibility that the fear of death you express is an actual state... and then you cited the case of an eastern teacher that appeared to be dead for thirty days and then who then woke up again having gone through an intense purification process." Mary Sue, with your above post I better understand what you are presenting as a possibility. Which is basically that he was not having an out of body experience but was instead having a surrendering of will experience which could be a possible "union" experience. Humm? First of all if he was not having a true out of body experience, then there was no fear involved and because of that he would not be in a "fear of death state". So with that said I see no reason why he, the eastern master, could not have been in an intense "union" state. And I have experienced this while in very deep meditation where the mind's vibration frequency is in the lower theta and upper delta vibration levels. The place where normal folks would be in a deep unconscious state of sleep. And one time Lord Jesus took me to see the first level of Heaven when I was in that very low frequency mind state. Anyway Mary Sue I agree with you and I apologize for misunderstanding what it was that you were presenting. And fear had nothing to do with the state of being that he was in. And I would like to say that one does not need to be in these lower mind frequency mind states to have a "union experience." I have had "union experiences" where I was fully conscious and awake.

Love, Tucker

Hi Tucker

Thank you for your reply. Absolutely no apologizes needed. Glad to see you back on the list.


If you don't mind I'd appreciate asking you & the group another question please.

And that is how much does our kundalini process affect our spouses? Have you noticed
changes within your wife?

My spouse has not had typical symptoms of energy going up his back. But we have had a few experiences together. Including sharing thoughts on a regular basis.
Like i woke up from a nap in the car to a state of being still, like time had stopped, yet we were moving
70 mph. I said cool. To my great surprise my spouse said speak for yourself, I'm driving. Not so cool

I took a homeopathic remedy (constitutional) & the next day my spouse had had a strong positive reaction to the remedy even though he did not actually take it, I did.

I am finally accepting another process
that has been progressing along side the Christian path. I only have the word Shaman. This may have been past
down through my fathers side of the family. I see this as healing/speaking of/to the DNA. I guess others
could experience this very differently. But this is the only aspect i am interested in.
My interest in the alteration of DNA was with me even in high school.

I am familiar with the vagus nerve, the gas, the irregular heartbeat. However for me, i've found this involves
the gut being our of balance. I was given many antibiotics as a young child. From what i have heard
this changed my gut bacteria permanently. Although i have heard of fecal transplants that can improve this problem

Thank you

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mary Sue,

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Sue:
Hi Tucker

Thank you for your reply. Absolutely no apologizes needed. Glad to see you back on the list.


If you don't mind I'd appreciate asking you & the group another question please.

And that is how much does our kundalini process affect our spouses? Have you noticed
changes within your wife?

My spouse has not had typical symptoms of energy going up his back. But we have had a few experiences together. Including sharing thoughts on a regular basis.
Like i woke up from a nap in the car to a state of being still, like time had stopped, yet we were moving
70 mph. I said cool. To my great surprise my spouse said speak for yourself, I'm driving. Not so cool

I took a homeopathic remedy (constitutional) & the next day my spouse had had a strong positive reaction to the remedy even though he did not actually take it, I did.

I am finally accepting another process
that has been progressing along side the Christian path. I only have the word Shaman. This may have been past
down through my fathers side of the family. I see this as healing/speaking of/to the DNA. I guess others
could experience this very differently. But this is the only aspect i am interested in.
My interest in the alteration of DNA was with me even in high school.

I am familiar with the vagus nerve, the gas, the irregular heartbeat. However for me, i've found this involves
the gut being our of balance. I was given many antibiotics as a young child. From what i have heard
this changed my gut bacteria permanently. Although i have heard of fecal transplants that can improve this problem

Thank you

Hi again Mary Sue, about the bacteria in your large intestine, if you needed the fecal transplant you would be very very sick. And the good bacteria if one takes a lot of antibiotics will develop a resistance to antibiotics. So normally, taking antibiotics if one has taken them quite a bit in the past there isn't a real problem with having to start over with building up the good bacteria in the large intestine. And if one does need to build the good bacteria up in their large intestine, eating yogurt with live bacteria in it will do that. You can also get pills that have these bacteria in them. Along with that, stress can cause a lot of problems with one's intestinal track that doesn't have anything to do with a bacteria problem.

About changing one's DNA, are you talking about changing your DNA with or using your mind?

Love, Tucker

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Sue:
Hi Tucker

Thank you for your reply. Absolutely no apologizes needed. Glad to see you back on the list.


If you don't mind I'd appreciate asking you & the group another question please.

And that is how much does our kundalini process affect our spouses? Have you noticed
changes within your wife?

My spouse has not had typical symptoms of energy going up his back. But we have had a few experiences together. Including sharing thoughts on a regular basis.
Like i woke up from a nap in the car to a state of being still, like time had stopped, yet we were moving
70 mph. I said cool. To my great surprise my spouse said speak for yourself, I'm driving. Not so cool

I took a homeopathic remedy (constitutional) & the next day my spouse had had a strong positive reaction to the remedy even though he did not actually take it, I did.

I am finally accepting another process
that has been progressing along side the Christian path. I only have the word Shaman. This may have been past
down through my fathers side of the family. I see this as healing/speaking of/to the DNA. I guess others
could experience this very differently. But this is the only aspect i am interested in.
My interest in the alteration of DNA was with me even in high school.

I am familiar with the vagus nerve, the gas, the irregular heartbeat. However for me, i've found this involves
the gut being our of balance. I was given many antibiotics as a young child. From what i have heard
this changed my gut bacteria permanently. Although i have heard of fecal transplants that can improve this problem

Thank you

So Mary Sue you come from a long line of Native American shamans , that should give you some abilities that the average person doesn't have. Have you explored those abilities? That could also explain why you and your spouse are sharing experiences. Shamans can do that you know ! I was born with strong empathic abilities and I have spent most of my life learning how to understand these abilities which are similar to the abilities that shaman have. How much have you studied your abilities Mary Sue?

Love, Tucker