All,

The Second Coming of Christ won’t occur in December of this year. You can count on that much. Scripture clearly states that Christ informed us (via the disciples questioning him about the end) that the Antichrist would appear and persecute the church severely – more than at any time in its history - and subsequent to the Antichrist’s appearance and the persecution of the church by the Antichrist would Christ come to relieve and save His non-apostate faithful.

Heck and lol, even if KW were the Antichrist, he couldn’t get the 3 ½ years of persecution accomplished by December of this year – and the 3 ½ years may or may not be literal but symbolic (though I think literal since it’s still a free country and I’m entitled to an opinion). I favor literal because of the severity of the AC’s hunting and persecution of the faithful.

Those of you who are RCs and still faithful to church teaching realize that the church does not hold to the rapture theory that many Protestant’s maintain as viable.

Anyway, probably a good idea to buy Christmas presents for your loved ones this year – good for family relations (and of course the economy that everyone values over values – which is only to say one values one’s wallet and security over the values of life) ; and since Obama hasn’t yet passed any LAWS forbidding Christmas for Christians we should make hay while the sun still shines. Of course, as Christians we should never forget that the SON will always shine – if we just keep Him in our hearts.

Never hurts to read scripture regarding what Christ has informed us concerning the end times. Heck, it may keep one from being tossed about on the winds of every doctrine. Try: Matt 24, Lk 21, Mk13, 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2, 1 Tim 4, 2 Tim 3, and 2 Pet 3 for starters. Before reading, ask the Holy Spirit to assist your understanding.

If you read that Divine Revelation, that stuff with the Divine stamp of approval, and can get to December of this year still being a possibility for the Second Coming – let me know. And let me know what you’re smoking.

Pop-pop
Blue-meme clan

Hi Pop-pop,

It's me again

Are you familiar with the preterist interpretation of eschatology.

While there is evidence that this position was held by many in the early church, the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy was written by the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar during the Counter Reformation.

Alcasar showed that the vast majority of the scriptures you quote in your above post were fulfilled during the centuries of the early church.

Thus the end could come at any time and neither you nor I know when that will be. Since the Antichrist was neither the Pope (as Alcasar showed) nor some future political leader, but rather the emperors of Rome, we will never know the day nor the hour of Christ's coming.

Thanks for your bright n breezy post, pop, and it's overwhelming tone of condescension.

You seem to know exactly what the secong coming of Christ means and how it relates to Antichrist so I won't argue with you.

Thank you.

haha, don't worry Stephen, that's just Pop-pops charm and zeal coming through...you can disagree with him, he won't bite

Jacques,

Indeed, it IS you again as you’ve written. (It's me again ).

I can always count on you, Jacques, (alas) to provide links to a plethora of opinions in a response post – the implied net affect of which is to insinuate that the truth cannot be known with certitude.

It seems to be based on the inferred premise that over the course of the past 2000 years and existent today as well, differences of opinion in the understanding of truth have been manifested. Differences exist. Contrary opinions exist. A plethora of Christian denominations exist (not to mention the opinions of non-Christian world religions, and secular humanists /atheists as well).

That the father of lies is ever busy has no bearing on my faith. In scripture I read that Satan is indeed just that – the father of lies. I read also that antichrists and false teachers were existent in the church (i.e. in the very midst of the people of God) of the first century; and I read admonitions to be wary of them and that they endeavor to imply that truth cannot be known. “Through them the true way will be made subject to contempt” (2 Pet 2:2). So, ‘Nothing new under the sun,’ as OT scripture states.

Christ came into the world that we would know the truth – not confusion, not different takes on what might be the truth. “But you have the anointing that comes from the Holy One so that all knowledge is yours. My reason for having written you is not that you do not know the truth, but that you do.“ (1 John 2:21 & 22). “I have come to the world as its light, to keep anyone who believes in Me from remaining in the dark” (Jn 12:46). “I consecrate myself for their sakes now, that they may be consecrated in truth.” (Jn 17:19)

“Truth!” said Pilate. “What does that mean?” (Jn 18:38).

Yet skepticism, not belief, prevails. And prevailing skepticism (due to pluralism) is used as a springboard for furthering skepticism. And you continually post your skepticism and provide links supportive of your skepticism. Look, you post – here’s a whole host of different opinions: preterists, partial preterists, full preterists, futurists, historicists, dispensationalists, pantelists, Protestants, Catholics, this Jesuit, that Dutch Protestant etc. See you can’t be right Pop, nobody can. You can’t have certitude, nobody can.

I beg to differ. Scripture begs to differ. Truth can be known. Truth made Himself known and wants to be adored and loved. And has sent the Spirit of Truth to guide us to all truth.

And this statement from within your post, Jacques, is simply confounded -- with truth and error intermixed:
“Thus the end could come at any time and neither you nor I know when that will be. Since the Antichrist was neither the Pope (as Alcasar showed) nor some future political leader, but rather the emperors of Rome, we will never know the day nor the hour of Christ's coming.”

While it is certainly true that we will never know the day nor the hour of Christ’s Second Coming, it is nonetheless true that we have been informed of the stages and signs that have to occur before the Second Coming will occur. The Antichrist will indeed be a political leader still ahead in mankind’s future, since the emperors of Rome were NOT the Antichrist, just lesser archetypes of what the Antichrist will be like. They were analogous and lesser precursors of the Antichrist.

Just look at what scripture tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2. There are a number of things to be found there that indicate that the Roman emperors were not the Antichrist. First, there was no mass apostasy among the Christians in those early years that preceded the appearance of any Antichrist. Rome persecuted the early Christians precisely because of their witness to the faith and refusal to adhere to the Emperor’s law. There was no prior fulfillment of scripture that satisfied a general falling away from the faith among the early Christians due to an increase of evil. (As the persecutions began there were of course those who rather than suffer martyrdom apostasized -- but that’s a different thing, an after-the-fact thing.)

Second, there were no supernatural signs and wonders manifested by the powers of Satan. (2 Thess 2:9) [These are also mentioned in Matt 24:24] The Roman emperors did not have false prophets of their own doing supernatural tricks as did Pharaoh whose false prophets turned staffs into serpents etc. Rome had gladiators, executioners and soldiers but nothing supernatural going on wonders-wise; just the diabolical evil being perpetrated against the faithful.

Third, and most obvious: the Lord Jesus did not come again back then, destroying the emperor with the breath of His mouth and annihilating him by manifesting His own presence. The Second Coming did not already occur. Christ did not manifest his own presence (2 Thess 2:8) in the time of the Roman persecutions.

No. The Antichrist is definitely yet in mankind’s future and to be revealed. Knowing that the Antichrist has not been revealed as yet, we can say that the Second Coming will not occur this December. (Not to say some cosmic event won’t occur).

The Divine Revelation of Christ does indeed inform us in certain regards relative to the end times and the Second Coming. It doesn’t give us the exact day and hour of course. Christians should test other revelations, predictions and thought about any future events and predictions against what Divine Revelation has made known to us.

One might notice that quite a mass apostasy has taken place in Europe in the past few decades and inroads in that regard are being made in America these days. But we can save that for another day.
.
Pop-pop

Hey Pop,

Didn't mean to upset you. And while I certainly wish to shake up your one-sided view of truth I do not mean to offend or dismiss you.

Among the list of options you site as different opinions there are both orthodox and heretical options. I am not advocating the heretical ones. The term Hyper-preterist is sometimes used to denote those who believe that ALL new testament prophecy is complete, even Christ's final coming and the consummation of all things...this is heretical and clearly refuted within the Bible and Church teaching.

However, historical preterism is a valid and orthodox position held by many orthodox and theologically sound members of the Body of Christ.

If you would be willing to realize that your view is sometimes hindered or obscured by your own bias and belief you may actual learn something of value from those who see things differently to yourself. I would not advocate doing so if I myself were not willing to do the same...I am; thus I surround myself with people who challenge and shape me, as hopefully I do for them as well. My desire is not to deceive anyone, or to lead people astray, but rather it is to follow Jesus and Love God and to Love the human beings He has created.

Back to preterism. As stated this position was held from early on in the church. The early church historian Eusebius of Caesarea (c. AD 263 - 339) states that

quote:

All authorities concur in the declaration that “when all these things should have been done” “The End” should come : that “the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets” : it should be completed : time should now be no more : the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass : in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets : or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done : the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem–all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realised on earth ; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations ; God’s holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days–in obedience, faith and hope.’

Even Pope Benedict XVI gives support to preterism when he states that

quote:

The judgement announced by the Lord Jesus refers above all to the destruction of Jerusalem in the year 70

OPENING MASS OF THE 11TH ORDINARY GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE SYNOD OF BISHOPS

I would also like to respond to your list of things that can't possible have happened yet, as I believe there is good evidence that they have. Though I know that you may not be convinced unless they fit the exact image you have created in your head concerning what they must look like...even though you yourself have no real idea given that you believe them to be a future reality. But I'll give it a shot anyway. It will take me a little time to put it together...please forgive the delayed response.

Let me begin by giving some background to the preterist position.

It is clear from scripture that Jesus prophesied certain apocalyptic realities that would soon take place, so soon that some of his original hearers would still be alive.

quote:

Matt. 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt. 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Mark 9:1)

Matt. 24:34 At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

That expected apocalyptic reality was the judgement of Israel culminating in the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D., all of which would vindicate Jesus and his ministry since he told them that judgement was coming and that only he could provide safety from the coming destruction.

As to your first question regarding the falling away:

The Jewish persecutors, the Judaizers, and the Zealots all show that this was fulfilled in the first century. The falling away was in progress as the last few NT books were written. One only needs to read things like the books of Hebrews, James, 1 & 2 Peter and 1-3 John to see this. The falling away coincided with the great persecution and tribulation that descended on the church just before the Jewish revolt (A.D. 63-66). During this persecution James, Peter and others (such as Paul) were killed (A.D. 63). And it was probably about this same time that John was exiled to Patmos. The NT writers during this time of persecution were bravely challenging their fellow-saints to persevere. The faithful remnant did. But many others forsook the “better things” in Christ and returned to Judaism’s things that were “fading away” and about to be destroyed. The “falling away” and “the coming of the man of sin” were first century events. They occurred in connection with the persecution of the church just before the Jewish revolt in A.D. 66. The destruction and defilement of the temple at Jerusalem is explained in great detail by Josephus. While 2 Thess. 2:1-4 is usually associated with “THE” Antichrist, we need to remember that the anti-Christian spirit was already at work in the first century:

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thess. 2:7)

The Jewish persecution was already underway when Paul wrote these words. The Holy Spirit was restraining its effect until the church reached a mature-enough condition to persevere. There was a close connection indeed between the tribulation and the apostasy. The anti-Christian forces were persecuting the church to get them to fall away. Several other NT passages allude to this warfare that was being waged:

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many Antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (1 John 2:18)

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22)

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of Antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:3)

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an Antichrist. (2 Jn. 1:7)

That the abomination of desolation happened in/to the temple is perhaps nowhere more clearly recorded than in the writings of Josephus, who was an eyewitness to the horrible tribulation (see his Jewish Wars and Antiquities of The Jews). Here are some excerpts:

In A.D. 66-67, the armies of Idumaea were called to Jerusalem by a band of murderous Zealots who had captured the Temple, fortified within it, and defiled it with all manner of abominations. But the people of the city who opposed the Zealots did not allow the Idumaeans to enter the city; and so the Idumaean army stayed outside the walls of Jerusalem that night.

And “there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and anyone would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming”. (Josephus Wars 4.4.5)

During that remarkable disruption of the order of things that night, some of the Zealots in the temple managed to go out unnoticed, and open the city gates to the Idumaeans. The zealots and the Idumaeans then joined together and during the upheaval attacked their opponents who were guarding the temple. “And now the outer temple was all of it overflowed with blood (see Rev. 11:2) and that day, as it came on, saw 8,500 dead bodies there” (Josephus Wars 4.5.1) (see Rev. 11:13).

“The death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and from [that] very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. ...[Ananus and Jesus, two former High Priests, who] a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship, ...were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts.” (Josephus Wars 4.5.2)

During the civil conflicts in those final days of Old-Testament Jerusalem, “many of the priests” were killed “as they were about their sacred ministrations”. Those who came into the temple court were “often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines (which were made from the sacred material in the temple) came with [such] force, that they ...reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that if any persons came ...to offer sacrifices, ...they fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar, ...with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves.” (Josephus Wars 5.1.3)

“...As for that House, God had for certain long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous [Ab], upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon.” (Wars 6.4.5)

“As the flames went upward the Jews made a clamor, such as so mighty an affliction required, and ran together to prevent it; and now they spared not their lives any longer, nor suffered anything to restrain their force, since that holy House was perishing....” (Wars 6.4.5)

“As for the seditious, they were in too great distress already to afford their assistance [towards quenching the fire]; they were everywhere slain, and everywhere beaten; and as for a great part of the people, they were weak and without arms, and had their throats cut wherever they were caught. Now, round about the altar lay dead bodies heaped one upon another; as at the steps going up to it ran a great quantity of their blood whither also the dead bodies that were slain above [on the altar] fell down.” (Wars 6.4.6)

“And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy House itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple, and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them....” (Wars 6.6.1)

“Now, as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be objects of their fury (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other such work to be done), Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple [except some towers and part of the wall on the west side of the city], ...but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited.” (Wars 7.1.1) (from preterist.org)

Having sidestepped the apocalyptic direction this conversation took, I'd like to get back to the idea of kundalini struggle at a time of global crisis, divorcing it from any end times theology and focusing on what's actually going on.

One of the major themes in certain circles is the return of the Feminine. I watched a YouTube video of Bede Griffiths talking about this last night. Very interesting! I find myself having to surrender to a very feminine, very sexual shakti energy, extremely pleasant at times but shooting up to the head and resonating quite powerfully in the skull, which can be quite difficult to bear on its own, though never unbearable, without the subsequent re-opening of my connection to the dangerous psychic "healer" I've talked about here before. I'm actually more or less housebound at the moment, caught between alternating currents of sexual energy and dark energy which fetters me in horrendous psychic knots and chains.

There seems to be a global struggle at the moment, at least that's what I'm gathering from the internet, where people are dealing with powerful movements of divine or universal energy, in advance of some expected awakening or asenscion. Christ's suffering on the cross seems like an important way of dealing with this struggle, for me at least, as it raises common themes of captivity, suffering, death and eventual resurrection and release, which I align myself with in order to gain a little courage and strength - the Christian path of suffering, the triumph of love and humility through death. However, this belief has to be integrated with the energy which gives rise to consciousness and the intense sexual feelings which accompany it. So then there seems to be a convergence of Christianity and Tantra or a kind of earth or natural mysticism. This is not a problem in itself for me now, although I had my struggles accepting it at first. The whole thing is accelerating this year and seems to be the experience of a cross section of spiritual types. Christ seems to be meeting shakti and there is a convergence of paths. I'm left wondering then if the mostly patriarchal Judaeo-Christian tradition needs to integrate an image of sexualised feminine energy in order to progress and move through an uncertain period in the world's development.

I'm brought back to Bede Griffiths again, talking about the Feminine, merging traditions, and men like Wayne Teasdale whose interspirituality I find quite encouraging. Not so much Tantra with these guys but the point is general. I'm also using metaphors of birth - this contraction I'm having at the moment, hopefully leading to an expansion and opening, nights of suffering and despair but the hope that joy will come in the morning. Of course there are those who might say the bringing together of religious traditions and the re-emergence of the Feminine are indicative of apostacy and end times, but I find that position pretty hopeless, just as I find any resorting to dogma or theology pretty useless in the face of what's actually happening.

Hey Stephen,

I'm not sure how to respond to your post. I found myself feeling rather puzzled and concerned. Maybe I should read your book first to get a better sense of wherefrom you are coming.

Or I could jump in with my crude comments. Here goes. (Forgive me if I'm way off the empathy and intuition mark).

I don't see that feminine energy as somehow apart from Christianity. The movement of the Holy Spirit can be understood, in part, through His gifts and His fruits (Gal 5). The gifts are wisdom, healing, teaching, miracles, prophesy, etc., and the fruits are gentleness, patience, kindness, etc. These seem to span a wide range of both masculine and feminine 'traits' or features, don't they? I guess I don't think of the Judeo -Christian God or Jesus as somehow lacking in feminine energy or needing to be complemented by some other feminine thing. God is Love. Is this Love masculine or feminine?

Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy (masculine?), and He often did this through episodes of healing those who were hurting and pleading and broken (feminine?).

And about the kundalini struggle and a global crisis? Not sure what you mean or what circles of folks you're relating to. I don't struggle with kundalini at this time. There was a period of time when energy was flying in my head non-stop, but it was also the exact time during which I became delusional and was connected to other k-activated, delusional people. My concern is that these energy experiences can become so consuming, the person fails to discriminate between their subjective experiences and external reality. Maybe the confusion lasts for a time until they find sort out who they are called to be and walk out God's will and purpose for their lives.

About Bede G., I wonder if you're referring to the utube that w.c. posted for us a few years ago wherein there's a statue of the dancing shiva over his shoulder? I was actually really turned off by his weird allusions to the feminine. Frankly, I just don't trust that kind of splitting up of God.

And I gotta add that I'm concerned about you, in a healthy detached way (I think), in regards to your comment about the connection with the 'healer.' I know you said you didn't want to talk about it, but you're bringing it up again here and you mention it in the sample of your book, so maybe you have some mixed feelings about sharing in that area. Anyway, are you saying that you feel that she, her energy, still has a hold on you spiritually/ energetically somehow? You've alluded to tantric connections with her that have formed some kind of soul tie? I think you've shared with us that you've been through various prayers to break off soul ties, right? That would be important to do, obviously, maybe many times. I think prayer might be the only cure for those spiritual entanglements.

Hi Shasha,

I appreciate your concern, was expecting it really. Hey, indeed, read the book, see where I'm coming from. You'll find it very Christ centred, very devotional.

Your points about Christ's feminine energy are very beautiful and well taken! But isn't it interesting how you refer to the Holy Spirit as He, which means the whole Trinitarian revelation is a masculine one. God is basically male. Sure, feminine energies are expressed through the Trinity, but in essence, God is masculine. That always bothered me.

Now I'm thinking that the Trinitarian revelation isn't the only revelation of God. How could it be? We live in an infinite universe within an infinite number of universes, God is beyond infinite, and yet he chooses to reveal himself in one way? That seems absurd. So it seems necessary to respect revelation from other traditions, including that of the divine feminine in Hinduism, with an openness to the expression of that revelation at a pivotal point in history. Indeed it can and has been expressed in Christianity through the Blessed Virgin, but I'm referring more to a sexualised energy, the energy of God's creativity, which seems feminine, and pours out from His essential oneness and true Being. It may indeed be the Holy Spirit, who may be feminine and may indeed be more closely linked to shakti than we at SP and Christians in general have given credit.

I realise I've given mixed signals about my desire to talk about the psychic healer. I'm sorry about that. It's not that I'm afraid or being deliberately obtuse or secretive; it's just that I've lived with this for 15 years or so and just get plain fed up going into it too much. I'm blue in the face with prayer about it, which isn't to say I won't keep praying. Just to set the record straight however, the healer is male, and so the connection isn't tantric. You've probably misunderstood that. I have no desire to be connected. It's awful. But hey, everything that exists is interconnected, right? My only feelings now are Christian compassion for a fellow human being caught in darkness. I deal with all my negative feelings fairly quickly and successfully.

Now, as for this tantric energy I'm experiencing, I'm not delusional, yet, I hope, and am very analytical and reflective of what it is and how it may be affecting my life. It manifests when I pray and seems to be a response to a deep longing for God, who seems to be saying that I have to surrender to this because it's part of His will. It isn't pure divine energy, I know that, but an energy which God holds and allows to work in me the more I long for Him and seek Him. Isn't it interesting that w.c. once called K energy "pure longing"? God surely works with energies, not just the Holy Spirit. He is creative and allows the energies of creation to shape and flow around us in response to His and our will. If I long for God alone, and this longing stimulates a particular sexualised, creative energy, isn't it logicasl to conclude that God is working with this energy?

I wonder if you aren't more aware of an increase in K energy at this time than you suggest. Maybe not personally, but surely in some of the Christian revivals that are breaking out in the States which you yourself have attended. I see a huge mix up of K energy and the Holy Spirit in these revivals, which most Christians don't have the vocabulary to discern. I wonder where these revivals are going, how they might be an expression of this sexualised feminine energy. You may disagree with this and that's fine. Surely however you do see a global crisis in world affairs and are open to the possibilty of a divine response to that. It even manifests among Charismatic Christians. GodTV have moved their studios to Jerusalem, expecting the return of Christ there at any time, for heaven's sake.

And that's my point really. Where are we? Is there a response of God to the global crisis at this time? Is it manifesting as a return of His creative, feminine energy? Or a mystical return of Christ? An outpouring of feminine Holy Spirit? I've tried to work this all out in relation to my own life, my own energies, my own struggles. Perhaps I'm guilty of seeing a connection where there is none, but then I witness the mass revivals in the U.S., connect with people who are in similar situations to myself, read books and watch fims about all sorts of spiritual emergence across the planet. The trouble is it's all still very confused and uncertain, which is why a sobre, reflective, honest and courageous discussion at shalomplace might help.

Do read the book, Shasha. I hope my love of Christ is very apparent.

Good discussion, and lots of issues floating around. Let me respond briefly to just a few, and I'll come back to others later.

1. I'm only about a third of the way through Stephen's book and it is, indeed, very Christo-centric and uncompromising of basic/essential Christian teachings. It's also more about his own personal process rather than theologically speculative. Very good reading! I put in a plug for it in Daily Spiritual Seed yesterday (if sales go up dramatically, Stephen, and you want to share some of the royalties, just drop me an email. ).

2. God-language is tricky business, as the Church has acknowledged many times. Officially, we do not ever say that God is more male than female or vice-versa; God's nature, while "personal," transcends gender considerations. The divine "energies" are uncreated and are neither male nor female; they transcend both. We use "He" or "She" as those are the personal pronouns we have at our disposal, but neither is correct. God includes both male and female and transcends both.

3. Re. the Trinitarian revelation isn't the only one, how could it be . . . from Stephen.

I think we need to distinguish between what we Christians call Revelation and spiritual insight, which we do find in other religions. Given our belief that Jesus is the full and decisive incarnation of God, we can say that the revelation disclosed through him trumps all other insights and articulations about God found in other traditions. That doesn't mean we disparage their insights -- e.g., how God can and does, in fact, work in and through our human male and female energies. What we do that the Hindus don't, however, is make a distinction between created and uncreated energies. The Holy Spirit is uncreated; kundalini is of the created order. The two can work together, as we've said many times, and we can even attribute all kinds of female attributes to the Spirit (creativity, nurturing, encouraging, etc.), but the Spirit per se is neither male nor female.

OK . . . more on the rest later. I made a comment way above about all these new energies and wavelengths in the environment these days (TV, radio, microwaves, etc.) and what that was doing to the electromagnetic field on the planet, but there were no bites. That's still a direction I'd like to explore in terms of "the times and the seasons" and K activity, if anyone's interested.

quote:

Originally posted by samson:
... I hope my love of Christ is very apparent.

Sure, Stephen. I've always felt that way about you--from exchanges years ago. I wasn't challenging your love for God and Christ-centeredness.

And Christ's love for you is apparent too.

God and I don't want to see you go off the deep end.

So I'm game for "sober, reflective, honest, and courageous discussion"...and I will read your book to be more equipped for such a high call.

In the meantime, I have this fantasy that five years from now you could be ministering to young boys who are at risk for delinquency and self-destruction, boys who are desperate for wholesome father-figures.

You could be food for these starving young men.

You could nurture them into Eternity...
Just sayin'

Thanks, sister.

And, you know, I love your fantasy. I'd love it to be a possibility and eventually a reality. Let's see...

Phil -

I love Father Keating's comment that God empties himself into the creation. Sometimes that distinction between uncreated and created energy can be blurred as we find ourselves in his Being. When I look at nature and delight in it, I often wonder if I am enjoying the energy of the tree or river, or am really delighting in the Creator? When I see Christ in a child, who or what am I seeing? The distinction remains a satisfying one intellectually, but isn't quite so apparent experientially as we find God hidden in our souls and become expressions of him. The same can be said for various states of meditation. Sometimes his presence is crystal clear, other time it seems merged with created energies. Indeed my enquiry suggests that God is working in and through created feminine energies these days, at least personally.

I wonder too if the idea of God being beyond male and female but containing the seed of both hasn't been communicated too well by the church, hence this image in public consciousness of a controlling male deity, and the subsequent reaction via goddess worship and finding the inner goddess etc. This might have worried me years back, not now. It displays a lack of intellectual discernment perhaps, and is possibly quite an ego trip for those who pursue it, and this is where the danger possibly lies - the confused meshing of powerful shakti energy and ego. Explosive!