Thanks for your honest sharing, Susan. No, this forum is not for Christians only; we've had a few non-Christian participants with thousands of posts, so all voices are welcomed, if respectful, as you are.

What do you think could be researched, Susan? Through the years I've corresponded with people with K process going who'd been to emergency rooms with heart pains, severe headaches, fainting spells, inner light and other symptoms, but the doctors turned up nothing. Maybe some study of brain waves?

We talk about this as an "energy," but I don't think there's anything measurable. Even chi/prana is only a hypothetical force/energy, though it's very palpable in people with awakened K. So it's not an easy topic to research. It seems to be largely anecdotal, though with a characteristic profile of "symptoms."

Personally, I have a difficult time relating to the energy as though it were personal (e.g., a "She"). It feels decidedly impersonal to me, and seems to flow wherever the "door" is open, which suggests more a pressurized force than an intelligence agent. What I do is turn over its care and "management" to Christ, and that usually brings a shift from trying to control/manage the process.

From the website Susan provided: Institute for Consciousness Research, here's a blurb on how they propose to research kundalini.


Hypothesis: Within a framework of remarkably similar characteristics, the mystic, the genius, the psychic and some of the mentally ill exhibit extraordinary states of consciousness. We propose to investigate whether one psycho-physiological process (Kundalini) is responsible for these phenomena.

Abstract: Research has been proposed to investigate the hypothesis that there is a specific psycho-physiological mechanism, referred to as Kundalini in esoteric scriptures, in human beings.

The Kundalini hypothesis suggests that human evolution has proceeded by the action of this mechanism in the human body and brain. Traditionally, Kundalini is held to be responsible for creativity, inspiration, genius, mystical experience, psychic phenomena and, in its morbid form, certain classes of mental illness. The proposed research would involve the collection, analysis, and documentation of both psychological and biological data relative to the common characteristics which appear to be the result of an awakened Kundalini. We believe that these objectives can be accomplished via the following avenues of investigation:

Literary research into the lives and writings of great mystics and geniuses and the written and oral traditions of ancient esoteric teachings.

The acquisition of statistical data from persons experiencing the symptoms of a Kundalini awakening.

The validation of the Kundalini hypothesis through a successful “awakening” in selected subjects within a scientifically monitored environment.


http://www.icrcanada.org/research/memorandum

As a human species, we've always tried to anthropormophize God, and calling the "energy" a She is a tradition in Eastern thought, just as posters on this thread have called the Holy Spirit a "He". Just to make it more clear, in Eastern tradition, their trinity is composed of Brahma, Shiva and Shakti/Kundalini Shakti. Kundalini Shakti is imaged as feminine because in eastern tradition, it is this force (whatever we can call it) that has given birth to the universe, and it is a microcosm of this force (Kundalini Shakti) that is said to reside at the base of the spine and when awakened rises up to the brain. That is the eastern tradition, and perhaps we can acknowledge that in different cultures and climes, religions may have different names for the same things. For me personally, I feel that what is happening in me does feel like an intelligence within. Phil's resolve to give it over to Christ (and not exert personal control or management) is a reason why Phil is so admired and is a model to follow. I respect the way that Phil treats others - intelligence and humility radiate, and I feel honored to be in an exchange.

I know the Canadian folks associated with the ICR (as posted by Shasha) and they are wonderful people, and offer a summer conference where people gather to discuss Kundalini and all traditions are represented and welcomed.
They are currently accepting proposals for talks for their August 2012 conference. For anyone who wishes to speak about Kundalini, submit a proposal to them by end of March. They are looking for people to share their knowledge and personal experience.

The ICR and others such as the Kundalini Research Foundation who promote research believe that there are metabolic processes which can be measured, and that there are definite biological changes in the blood, the nervous system, the cerebrospinal fluid, and in the composition of the brain itself upon a full kundalini awakening.

Since subtle energies can not be measured at present by our scientific instrumentation, (though scientists such as William Tiller are working at measuring subtle energies), the scientific focus would be on the effects of the awakening as measured by physiological, neuro-physiological, and psychological changes, with particular attention to the immune-endocrine system.

Here's some further reading for those who have interest:

http://www.ecomall.com/biz/text.htm

SCIENTIFIC PARAMETERS AND PROTOCOLS
The scientific models and protocols proposed will be designed to monitor the levels of transformational changes with emphasis on the following:
BIOLOGICAL METAMORPHOSIS OF THE BRAIN
To document accelerated activities in the brain.
To identify the reversal of the reproductive system.
Absorption of generative fluids and hormones into the visceral organs as they ascend into the brain
To establish that the brain is still in an organic state of evolution toward what could be the next plateau in human evolution.
Every major organ begins to function at new levels of activity.
Cells are charged with more potent bio-energy.
Metabolism is greatly amplified or enhanced.
Biochemistry of the organism is significantly altered.
Hormonal variances charted.
Accelerated activity of the entire nervous system.
Verify the transformation of the genes.
Identify the heart-mind-body connection.
Affects upon the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems.

Phil,

Your comment was well placed. I certainly accept its validity. I should have been more correct and have written: “The pursuit of kundalini by yogic methods can be analogous (imo) to building a tower of Babel for oneself.” I had tried in my stating “Pursuing the advancement of one’s human potential is not per se an evil.” in one of the paragraphs above to express that fact.

On another note regarding your post, I have somewhere read something concerning the lag time between prayer and the experiencing of felt sensations (that you mentioned). I experience that lag often especially after having been before the Blessed Sacrament in adoration. I will keep an eye out for that passage.

Sometimes I think we might profit from using the term unctions instead of kundalini. We may be unnecessarily confusing realities.

My understanding of SJOC’s works is that while he counsels (especially in ASC) our not paying any attention to felt apprehensions (a subset of other apprehensions that he also covers – i.e. visions, locutions, taste and fragrances), he does so, so that a person of prayer does not mistakenly shift his/her focus to the pursuit and enjoyment of consolations (felt sensations per this discussion) instead of on God. That would shift our endeavors in prayer to self or a distorted dependency on sensation and not the love of God (who doesn’t always gift us with consolations in the course of our maturing in prayer).

But John does not deny the presence and the blessings one receives from these unctions of the H.S. in people engaged in contemplative prayer. We should not discount or minimalize these consolations but rather accept and appreciate them in thanksgiving and humility. These consolations lead one on in prayer and assist our getting to the betrothal stage. (Anyway, I’m no expert and I may have this wrong, but that’s my take on it all. Anyone can offer correction for me, if I am misunderstanding).

In FLAME Stanza 3:64 SJOC discusses how the devil baits and impedes a contemplative from swimming in the unctions of the Holy Spirit. He tries to aid our not missing out on receiving the unctions.

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p.s. I see that several more posts have been made since Phil's. I have not had a chance to read them as yet, but will.

Those are great research topics you mention, Susan. I do wish there was good, scientific data concerning them. E.g., the issue of reproductive fluids: it's clear that with K process there are drastic changes taking place, and that one needs to learn to adjust to this new situation. It's a delicate topic, and one that Gopi Krishna tried to discuss numerous times.

-------

Pop, you make some good points again, but I do think there's a difference between HS unctions and some of the phenomena associated with K awakening (see Susan's list of research topics above). That John of the Cross is certainly the expert is helping us find our way on the contemplative journey, isn't he? I don't know that any of his writings address K issues, though he would certainly distinguish between such phenomena and contemplative prayer, which is one of the points you're making, I believe.

Phil,


Re your comment: “Pop, you make some good points again, but I do think there's a difference between HS unctions and some of the phenomena associated with K awakening.”

I think so as well, that’s the point I tried to make when I wrote: “We may be unnecessarily confusing realities.” I guess I wasn’t clear enough.

Susan, and others,

They say that we only use 10% of our brain power. If the study and understanding of kundalini, as is your interest, could enhance man’s utilization of more brain power and some use of vestigial powers lost because of the fall, that would certainly be wonderful. If all of us were able to use 100% of the power that God has gifted our brain with, how great that would be. (Given that we would use more power wisely and not selfishly of course). I know that I would love to be able to use 100% of my brain power in loving God, my family and others (though I yet need to undo my dysfunctional ‘flesh’ quite a bit). So, while potentially perhaps fraught with danger, research in this regard might be very beneficial (if, bye and bye we learn more and learn safely). Is that a mirage? Who knows? But the ICR plan of action that Shasha extracted for us seems quite benign and shouldn’t encompass any danger as it is essentially data gathering. In that pursuit, I wish the ICR well.

That said, whether we are using 10% or one day get to harness 100% of our brain / mind power, it all (as does everything) comes from God our creator. As Christians, blessed with the beauty and truths of Divine Revelation we know that we are to receive and appreciate any and all God’s gifting of us with thanksgiving and praise (as is only just) and respond in love to God with obedient fidelity. The fallen angels daily use 100% of the fullness of their spiritual power (which God hasn’t taken from them) but do not respond in love marked by thanksgiving and obedient fidelity. They will not serve. They have refused docility to the Father’s will.

God desires 100% of our wills far more than 100% of the use of the brain He has gifted us with in the first place. Our brain 10% or 100% active is His doing, our will is our responding to His doings. Holiness and sanctification has to do with our wills and our devotional relationship to God. Indeed the stated goal of the Philothea website is to promote that kind of devout relating to Christ, to the Trinity.

As Christians, we read that the Father in the presence of the Holy Spirit (appearing as a dove) spoke from heaven to those by the Jordan that JESUS was his beloved Son in whom He was well pleased.*

The Holy Spirit is the relational love between the Father and the Son. The Father loves JESUS and Jesus loves the Father. In His humanity He responded to all the Father’s requests, to His will, in obedient docility. **

To equate kundalini with the Holy Spirit is patently false for many practitioners of kundalini do not love and revere Jesus at all. Their exercise of kundalini proceeds completely oblivious to the person of Jesus. Any expanded consciousness they receive is not per se a consciousness pertaining to Jesus nor does it involve the loving of Jesus. If it were, they would all be contemplative Christians and they would all be leading lives of virtue and devout love of the Trinity – (not the same as expanded consciousness or spiritual power).

There may be some exceptions among folk, I realize, but those exceptions (like Phil) know enough to not equate kundalini with the Holy Spirit.

Susan,

You wrote in your initial post of your dedicated pursuit of intimacy with the Lord and keen interest in the saints and mystics. It seems that you have altered your focus and now Christianity has for you lost its primacy and become one among many -- just another religion and without authority greater than any other. Btw, many folk have moved this same way. Here is (imo as a Christian) evidence of the danger in all of this kundalini issue. You say in your most recent post that religions have different names for the same things. I haven’t studied world religions in all honesty, but to my limited knowledge no others have God (whom you now speak of as a cosmic force and not a Trinity of persons) undergoing death and resurrection for us. No others speak of judgment and its eternal consequence. No others have an eschatology regarding end times. No others speak of the power of intercessory prayer and God wanting and willing to hear and answer our prayers, and other things etc. So, even though you no longer hold Christianity high, it would be incorrect to say it is equivalent essentially to any of the other religions, because it just isn’t. You might think it no better but you can’t think it equivalent.

What was happening in you initially (in the receiving of felt sensations) may well have been occasioned by the graces of the Holy Spirit at that time. You however may have made the mistake of misinterpreting and consequently following these as being kundalini and have now (as SJOC warned us about) gotten lost and have been following not the Spirit that loves Jesus and the Father. Imo of course, you have mistepped.

Fwiw, think about it. I don’t think one can pray to a cosmic force, but should you want, you can pray to the Lord and ask His help. Peace to you.

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* Matt 3: 16 & 17, Mk 1:9-11, Lk 3: 21&22, Jn 1:32-34
** Heb 5:7-10

All,

Those of you who are Christian, Christian still, realize that a cosmic force was not scourged, did not have thorns smacked into it, nor undergo nailing to a cross, be mocked and jeered at, nor suffer the pains of crucifixion and the stab of a lance.

In my parish, after mass today we prayed the Stations of the Cross. I thought of Jesus in the garden on that Thursday night, afflicted by the foreknowledge that what He was about to endure would be wasted on so many folk in the third millennium who would sophisticatedly dismiss and non-chalantly discount what He was prepared to undergo for mankind; those who would never accept Him or worse, even once having accepted and followed Him later abandon Him and apostasize in favor of a cosmic force and an expansion of their consciousness.

And I thought about Jesus on the cross not just bearing the suffering of crucifixion physically, but interiorly as He looked out from the hilltop, bearing the psychic affliction of the same foreknowledge regarding how many all this would be wasted on. Aiyee.

It all (to me anyway) seems like such an insult to God! Such an insult!

How terrible, terrible, terrible; what a reality – what a travesty.

All this cosmic swill makes me angry, truth be told. All this dilution of Christianity and discard of Christ’s sacrifice makes me angry.

But what the thought of all that affliction coming from His foreknowledge (and His yes nevertheless) did -- was to make me want to love Him even more, to be true to Him even more.

Pop-pop

Pop, I haven't heard anyone equating kundalini with Christ, nor confusing the two. It's usually k and the HS that is confused, sometimes because of semantics, other times conceptually and theologically. But no one, to my knowledge, is conflating kundalini with the crucified Christ, nor diminishing his sufferings and what he won for us because of them.

Where do you see a "dilution of Christianity and discard of Christ's sacrifice" going on? An old swashbuckler for Christ like me would jump on that in an instant. Good to have an extra sword on hand just in case I'm missing something, however.

Phil,

I’m wasn’t accusing you or others at SP of conflating kundalini with Christ. I was bemoaning the many who pursue eastern religious thought where kundalini often leads them to investigate and do research and wind up losing their belief in the primacy of Christian Revelation and consider Christ and Christianity as no more valid than any other world religions. I was bemoaning those who were once Christian and now are generic cosmic-conscious believers in a pantheistic morph, who think that there is a common denominator among all the world religions that should be embraced in lieu of Christian Revelation; who think global peace would be attained through a political correctness that implies Christians are smug to hold Christ and His revealed truths where we do, who disparage the historical Christ.

Do you not see this? You ask where I see dilution. I see it in the vast moral relativism that exists, even increases. I saw it in Panikaar’s book. I see it elsewhere. I saw it in Susan’s posts. I see it in retreat centers where Catholic priests hold ecumenical week long retreats but do not make daily mass available to participants less they offend any retreatants who are non Catholic or non Christian.

Pop

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
... But no one, to my knowledge, is conflating kundalini with the crucified Christ,...
Where do you see a "dilution of Christianity and discard of Christ's sacrifice" going on? ..

As I read Susan's posts, I also felt this was going on, to some extent. In her opening post, for instance, Susan shared:

Krishna’s books present the world with a revival of a lofty spiritual science [Kundalini] acknowledged and practiced in our greatest civilizations of the past and brought to fruition in
Jesus Christ who came to show us the way
to our own Kingdom of God within .

This sounds a LOT like the New Age teaching that Jesus came to show us the way to enlightenment = the Kingdom of God, and he (not He) was qualified to do that owing to his uber-enlightenment, Kundalini-baked consciousness. It kinda goes without saying in this theory that Christ's crucifixion is totally superfluous. Christ's crucifixion accomplishes nothing insofar as course and summit of kundalini is concerned. The Cosmic Intelligence, manifest in every individual across all religions, as kundalini, has no need of Christ's sacrifice to get the job done.

Also, she posted:

If Kundalini is the mechanism... for upgrading the human to the level of a mystic, or saint, or creative genius, then verification of it by our medical and scientific discliplines may go a long way to not only reconciling religion and science, but reconcile warring religions, and also show that life is a plan of a Cosmic Intelligence (which can be the lauded Trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit ) and that there is purpose to creation; and the sooner that this is recognized, then we can begin as a human species to cooperate with [Kundalini] ...

Please correct me, Susan, if I'm misunderstanding you here. By the above, it sounds like you are saying that

Kundalini "can be the lauded Father, Son, Holy Spirit" right?

Susan: This all sounds very consistent with what I've read thus far from that website, Institute for Consciousness Research. Too many examples to cite here, but it appears that you are in synch with their teachings. And on that website, Christ is referred to as one among many great Saints, scientists, musicians, artists, humanitarians, etc.

Let me know if I am misunderstanding something. It seems this topic is important to several of us. And I think we have the same ultimate goal in mind, don't we? We would all grow closer to God. Our studying and sharing with one another is a great gift to me as I endeavor to learn and grow.

Susan, I know this thread is on kundalini research, and maybe you didn't want to get into all this, so forgive me if I've over-stepped my bounds.

Peace,
Shasha

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shasha,

I agree that it's important to make helpful and necessary distinctions regarding kundalini, Christ, the Trinity, etc. I've done that so many times on this board that I guess I take it for granted that people know where I stand about all this. I also do believe that it was presumptuous for Gopi Krishna or anyone from another religious tradition to project their understanding of enlightenment, mysticism, etc. and their understandings of God and transformation onto other religious traditions. That also smacks of arrogance. One hardly ever finds Christians looking out at Buddhism, for example, and saying that what they call nirvana is what we mean by infused contemplation, and what they mean by emptiness is what we call the Trinity. Yet it seems common for people with Eastern perspectives to assume that their paradigm should somehow be normative for everyone, and that the symbols and theologies that Christians hold are merely metaphors for what they know more clearly. Kundalini enthusiasts are often guilty of this, and all we can do is to say, "hold your horse, there, amigo."

All that said, I do agree that kundalini process is most likely a common factor in all transformative processes -- as is the intellect, will, memory, libido, etc. It's obviously a bit more extraordinary than the latter, and certainly shouldn't be conflated with the operations of supernatural grace. But where we see expanded consciousness in mystics, profound creativity, psychic gifts, and the like, it's likely that K process has been awakened. Because we do see this in the mystical traditions of all the world religions, then it's reasonable to surmise that K process is a common factor to them all. What doesn't follow, however, is the conclusion that K process is the reality about which doctrines like the Trinity or the Holy Spirit give testimony. K enthusiasts need to be open to the possibility that there are transcendent realities to which even the K process is ultimately subject.

The research topics that Susan listed are important, and it does not matter much to me if she or the sponsoring organization conflate K and the HS. That kind of bias wouldn't influence their research results, if they truly did stick with the topics listed above, which do lend themselves to empirical methods, to some degree. So long as the focus is empirical/positivist, I'm interested in what's going on. When they (like the KRN, KRF and other groups) start waxing philosophical or theological, I think they're clearly out-of-bounds and that they lose the kind of scientific credibility they hope to promote.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
...I also do believe that it was presumptuous for Gopi Krishna...to project their understanding of enlightenment, mysticism, etc. and their understandings of God and transformation onto other religious traditions. That also smacks of arrogance. ...it seems common for people with Eastern perspectives to assume that their paradigm should somehow be normative for everyone, and that the symbols and theologies that Christians hold are merely metaphors for what they know more clearly. Kundalini enthusiasts are often guilty of this, ...

From ICR's "Research" Section, they have an essay on St. John of the Cross whose Living Flame of Love is attributed to k. "illumination." The essay concludes:

While this mystic’s accounts are naturally articulated in the Christian context in which he was raised, lived and was inspired, they echo to the last chord the accounts of mystics from other cultural and religious orientations

This appears to be a wish.

But fairly innocent, in this case, I'd say. The authors are just too eager to make k. not only the common denominator of all transcendent states, but the primary source and determinant of all mystical states.

As you're now famous for saying, there's a common obfuscation between enlightenment states and Christian mysticism as described by SJOC and STA. When you have experienced both, you can discern that these are two different phenomena.

Hello All,

I just wanted to thank Susan for her eloquent posts. I have come to this understanding as well and consider the transformation and accompanying gifts a great blessing and unfolding purpose. My experience has been one of nature and wonder, with visions reflecting the greatest truth. Months ago, I found the writing of Phillip St. Romain and his bravery at stepping foward to present this information. I have been challenged recently to bring this understanding to another who may judge me negatively for coming to an understanding outside of a particular church. I have been greatly discouraged by the number of negative sites describing the journey as evil. I find I have to stand aside of this and other negatives or negative phrasings. In my case, I find that this has been trying to break through since childhood, and is part of a great blueprint, and that nurture and care is required. Thank you.

Welcome, k, and thanks for your sharing.

The snafu with Christians pertains to how we present what you are calling "this information." If we use the language of Hindu mythology and theology, Christians will never accept it, especially if it is called "serpent power" or Shakti, the energy of the goddess, or the Holy Spirit. In my own situation, it has not been a matter of fudging on the Hindu language, as I just don't personally relate to any of those labels. My own frame of reference is much less mythological or theological, but more metaphysical.

I have presented the following quote by Jim Arraj numerous times on this board, and it still expresses very well the understanding I have for K process. Note that this way of looking at things can go along quite well with the notion of K process as having an evolutionary orientation, or an entelechy to higher consciousness.

quote:

Kundalini is that fundamental energy or instinct of the soul that is inscribed in its very being which urges it to become fully alive and activated so that it can be and see its own existence and that of all things, and experience in them the radiant mystery of existence that we call God. But if the human soul contains within it all the riches of elemental, vegetative and animal levels of existence, then this fundamental soul energy is animating all the levels of the human organism from within. But this presence of the soul is in some sense dormant, lying like a seed in these depths. In order to realize itself it must realize each and every level of its being. In short, the human soul is the inmost animator by which these levels exist and by which they become activated. In a certain way each of us contains the whole evolution of the material part of the universe, and our physical, psychological and spiritual growth is the activation of that heritage. Kundalini is not some strange freakish force coming from without, but it is a striking visible manifestation of an energy that is ceaselessly at work in all of us, both unconsciously and in our conscious strivings. Kundalini is the bursting forth of that soul energy that urges us to fulfill our destiny, but now becomes visible to us either because of our particular temperament or certain psychological gifts or traumas, or as a natural response to some supernatural gift of God’s grace. The whole purpose of this energy is to make each level of our being, starting from the most elementary, fully alive and fully nourishing of the next highest level so that at the end of the process the deepest intuitive powers of the soul are awakened and we can see who we really are and that we are. Kundalini can appear as an impersonal energy because it is not something under the control of the ego. It is very personal in the sense that it is an energy of the soul, but this energy must activate those levels of our being which are far from our conscious control. The human soul is present to the entire body, for it gives it existence. But its lower operations operate through various parts. The Hindu chakras and their associated nerve plexuses are fitting symbols of different levels that exist within the human soul. The traditional picture of kundalini lying dormant in the lowest chakra at the base of the spine is a fitting symbol of the human soul as a being in potency that needs to awake, and this is an awakening that proceeds from the bottom upwards, for the activation of the lower levels is necessary for the activation of the higher. And the activation of each level is the intensification of the powers belonging to each level and their orientation and transformation so they can best serve the human soul, which soul is deeper in them than they are in themselves, for it is what gives them existence. Further, in a highly analogous way, just as the soul is at the heart of these lower levels, God is at the heart of the soul giving it existence. Therefore, the more the soul experiences its own existence the more it is united to God even if in the actual experience the word God may not be used, for the experience happens non-conceptually. God is present in and through the existence of the soul which God constantly sustains.

- from http://www.innerexplorations.com/ewtext/some.htm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:
...cut I also do believe that it was presumptuous for Gopi Krishna or anyone from another religious tradition to project their understanding of enlightenment, mysticism, etc. and their understandings of God and transformation onto other religious traditions. That also smacks of arrogance. cut... (QUOTE]

I really started to see and understanding this last summer. I had been experiencing so much confusion about what was being said until I spoke with some students of a now deceased disciple of Yogananda. I asked if Yoganada's book about the Christian Gospels was from a Christian perspective. They said, oh no. That Yogananda had spent a lot of time writing this book because he felt that Christianity had lost
it's way and he was going to put them on the right track. My inner comment was how arrogant.