quote:

Originally posted by Susan Grace:

People have their sincere beliefs and I recognize that sincere people do believe that HS is not K, and K is not HS.

Are you of the view that K and HS are one and the same? Trying to get caught up on the conversation...

Just a reminder, here, that we already have an extensive discussion on K and the HS.
- see https://shalomplace.org/eve/for.../25010765/m/68310806

I've been off the grid for a long time. Thanks for the link Phil.

One thing that has changed for me in that time has been gaining a real, personal, experiential relationship with the Holy Spirit. Getting to know him has been a complete game changer. Now I know what being baptized in the Holy Spirit, as described in Acts, means. Wow. I didn't even know what I didn't know. Onto that link.

Phil--

Right, that's the same link I provided two days ago.

Thanks for the redirect to take further discussion on the Holy Spirit and kundalini (if there is any) over there rather than continue it here on this thread. Makes sense.

Hi Aviela,
I'm going to answer your question over on the Kundalini and Holy Spirit thread...

Kundalini certainly offers an interesting field of possibilities. But to attract serious, mainstream attention, a research area has to address the concerns of a significant number of people, and it has to be amenable to quantitative research. If it offers economic benefits, then so much the better.

An example of a treatment that's successfully crossed the line from fringe to mainstream is mindfulness-based therapy for anxiety and depression. Back in the 1970s, mindfulness was just one of a number of fringe therapies. Now it's mainstream. You can find reams of studies and research papers in the peer-reviewed literature. A significant proportion of the population suffers from anxiety and depression, and mindfulness as a treatment is healthier and cheaper than long-term use of psychotropic medication.

An example of a research area that's gone the other way is psychoanalysis. From the 1890s until the 1950s, psychoanalysis was leading edge. But it turned out to be so lengthy and so expensive that its cost-effectiveness was questionable, and it would only ever be available to the upper-middle classes.

If kundalini is to attract research dollars, it will have to pitch itself at the hard-nosed mindset of this twenty-first century of ours.

All,

Certainly it is understandable that one would want to explore the nature of kundalini. The study of human behavior via psychology, and of the brain, glandular and nervous
systems in medicine have wrought wonderful blessings to mankind. It is human nature to seek knowledge.

There is a difference though, in endeavoring to understand the aspects of kundalini versus endeavoring to pursue kundalini.

Too, for Christians pursuing a dedicated active prayer life, there is a difference between seeking intimacy with Christ or the Trinity and seeking a kundalini awakening. There is a difference between a contemplative gaze focused on the Lord versus endeavoring to focus one’s concentration on lighting up the various chakra locations so as to achieve and/or enjoy the aspects of expanded consciousness that presumably (I have no experience) awakened kundalini affords -- a consciousness that can well bring psychological danger. Scripture tells that the devil prowls the world seeking to destroy us; that he has asked for us, and that Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. So one’s expanded consciousness may bring awareness of realities we are not suited to deal with. The goals are different and the control is different. In infused contemplation the Lord is in control of the infusion and our role is the passive receipt of the Lord’s graces, as He sees fit and under His timing. In pursuing kundalini awakening we are in control in the sense that we are active and that our activity does not have love of God as a focus but one’s desire to advance one’s knowledge and consciousness. There is no surrender or abandonment to the Lord but rather a desire to pursue the advancement of one’s human potential. Pursuing the advancement of one’s human potential is not per se an evil. But neither is it growth in relationship or devotion to Christ. Our goal as praying Christians is the latter.

I don’t know how much stock folk put in St. John of the Cross, but here are some extractions from his writing that bear on felt sensations.

St. JOC informs us (relative to felt sensations) in ASC II.11.1: “And concerning touch they (praying folk) feel extreme delight, at times so intense that all the bones and marrow rejoice, flourish, and bathe in it. This delight is usually termed spiritual unction, because in pure souls it passes from the spirit to the senses, and it is common in spiritual persons.”

He counsels in ASC II.11.2: “.. even though these apprehensions (i.e. felt sensations) come to the bodily senses from God, one must never rely on them or accept them. A man should rather flee from them completely, and have no desire to determine whether they be good or bad.”

SJOC here is recommending our not endeavoring to understand!

And in 11.3: “He who esteems these apprehensions is in serious error and extreme danger of being deceived. Or at least he will hinder his spiritual growth because these corporal perceptions bear no proportion to what is spiritual.”

In 11.4: “Palpable, tangible, and material as they are, they strongly affect the senses so that in one’s judgment they seem more worthwhile. A man then, forsaking faith, will follow after these communications believing that their light is the guide and means to his goal, which is union with God. But the more importance he gives these communications the further he strays from faith, the way and means.”

Imo, many spiritual folk are these days caught in this very error. Seduced. Much talk and interest in kundalini not as much in Christ, the bible and the bearing of the cross that love typically demands of us.

We will be judged and rewarded based on our deeds, and not on our tingles.

All that said, SJOC does nevertheless state in FLAME Stanza 2:22: “Sometimes the unction of the Holy Spirit overflows into the body and all the sensory substance, all the members and bones and marrow rejoice, not in so slight a fashion as is customary, but with the feeling of great delight and glory, even in the outermost joints of the hands and feet. The body experiences so much glory in that of the soul that in its own way it magnifies God”

However, he predicates the attainment of such consolations to having first undergone many trials, bitterness and tribulations through which purification and spiritual development prepares the soul in its acquiring sufficient virtue. In paragraph 27 of the above stanza he writes: “There are many who desire to advance and persistently beseech God to bring them to this state of perfection. Yet when God wills to conduct them through the initial trials and mortifications, as is necessary, they are unwilling to suffer them, and they shun them, flee from the narrow road of life, and seek the broad road of their own consolation, which is that of their own perdition ….. although they desire to reach the state of the perfect, they do not want to be guided by the path of trials that leads to it.”

We all have various abilities as God has seen fit to endow us; and we are to receive and appreciate and acknowledge them in thanksgiving and humility. And the HS can vitalize and develop any of them: our intellect, imagination, emotions, musicality, artistic sense of beauty, temperament, etc as He sees fit; and we can and should put all and any of these at the service of love.

As Christians our aim is an ever deepening participation in the Trinitarian communion. (It is not per se the pursuit of kundalini or expanded consciousness; not that expanded consciousness is not a good thing – though I don’t know from personal experience to date, since I’m still endeavoring to cooperate with the grace of the HS in remedying my dysfunction, and indeed this is a never ending story for all of us. We never ‘arrive’ in this life.) So not enlightenment but love of God and neighbor is to be our focus, and growth in commitment to Christ, in virtue and charity is the witness to our ongoing growth in sanctity. Loving the Father and others as Christ has loved us and the Father. And bearing the cross of Christ crucified, the demands love and responsibility make on us.

The seeking of kundalini awakening and/or enlightenment is not per se the pursuit of the devoted living out of the two great commandments. SJOC and STA would never have counseled the pursuit of such. Certainly, the pursuit of enlightenment can merely be the pursuit of self. Seek ye first the Kingdom of God.

Just as ‘Faith without works is dead,’ so too kundalini awakening and/or enlightenment without works is dead.

Now, those pursuing a dedicated devotion to Christ and engaged in a serious prayer life may well experience the unctions of the HS (which sensation-wise may be akin to kundalini in that the felt sensations are experienced in the human body at chakra locations we all have in common and perhaps elsewhere in the body as well).

I think that the vast majority of us don’t have a good and deep appreciation for the significance of what participation in the Trinitarian communion really means. (I include myself).

Christ told us in Matt 11:15 “Heed carefully what you hear.” And what He had revealed to us in verses 11-14 immediately preceding (and which He meant us to consider deeply), was that John the Baptist, his cousin of the same age and with whom He had grown up for 30 years, whose mother and His were very close (Mary spent 3 months with Elizabeth as they celebrated and shared their pregnancies together – Luke 1:56) is immense. “I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman, greater than John the Baptist.” In verse 13 Christ tells us John is Elijah the one who was certain to come. The impact statement for our consideration comes in the latter half of verse 11: “Yet the least born into the kingdom of God is greater than he”!!! That’s a wow.

What that says to me (non theologian, just man-on-the-street) is that the least born into the kingdom of God is greater than Gopi Krishna, Yogananda, Dali Lama, Buddha, whomever guru you want to suggest – despite their meekness, and enlightened consciousness. The enlightened consciousness they may have attained does not surpass the dedication and service to the Father that John the Baptist had. Their enlightenment, meekness and humility though certainly a gift of God and a tribute to the sincerity of their endeavors profited them. Doubtless.

Yet Christ tells us that participation in the Trinitarian communion, in the very life of the Trinity via baptism and incorporation into the Mystical Body of Christ profits us more, gains us more.

As Christians so blessed, so advantaged, we will be called to account for our response to such gifting.

As Christians we are called to put all the gifts, abilities and graces God has blessed us with into loving the Father as Christ loves the Father, and loving the Son as the Father loves the Son. The Holy Spirit, the relational love that flows between them, aids us in realizing an ever increasing participation in their mutuality as we dispose ourselves to His graces.

In the end, CHRISTIANS ARE CALLED TO BE CHRISTIANS. Whatever God does with folk of other world religions is His doing. How they will be judged, how they will be rewarded is His concern. At the end of the Gospel of John (Jn 21:21&22) Christ tells Peter that it’s no business of his what the apostle John will be doing. Peter is to do what Peter has been tasked. “Your business is to follow Me”, Christ says.

We’re to preach the Gospel, to witness to Christ, to live the devout life. We’re to be salt.

One cannot attain participation in the Trinitarian communion by one’s own efforts; only by the gift of grace. Seeking kundalini does not bring one into participation in Trinitarian communion, Baptism does. Seeking kundalini does not bring a Christian into deeper participation in Trinitarian communion. Increased devotion to Christ brings increased participation in the Trinitarian communion. The pursuit of kundalini by yogic methods is analogous (imo) to building a tower of Babel for oneself.

Our time is better spent in contemplation of God than in striving to expand our consciousness or divinize ourselves. The latter is so much more prone to being egoic.

My dibs.

Pop-pop

All very good, pop pop. Thank you.

William Johnston, S.J. and I had several long conversations about kundalini and the Christian life when he was in Wichita to do a retreat years ago. He said that St. John of the Cross would probably consider it an "overflow to the senses," which we would understand something along the lines of the impact of contemplative grace on the psyche and body. I had written in my book that I considered it to be "concomitant" with prayer, which is basically the same idea, and was fine with him. What we both didn't quite understand was how and why the process seemed to continue beyond the immediate time of prayer -- that it seemed to have something of a life of its own, not necessarily ordered to supernatural grace. We've probed all that time and again on this board, as you know.

The one part of your post I'd disagree with somewhat is that "the pursuit of kundalini by yogic methods is analogous to building a tower of Babel for oneself." Maybe, maybe not. You're attributing a motive, here, to those who practice k yoga, and I don't think everyone who does so is so arrogant. It seems that, for most, the motive is simply to live more fully, and that's perfectly legitimate, imo. That's why some people do physical exercises; others who exercise may be motivated to be "muscle man" or "trophy wife." I don't know.

What I would say, without hesitation, is that pursuing K awakening is fraught with danger, as we really don't fully understand what we're dealing with, here. I'm not sure scientific research can do much to shed light on this topic, though this was a dream of Gopi Krishna. There has been a lot of research on the benefits of prayer, meditation, and spirituality, so we have at least that.

(How are you these days? Drop a line when you can.)

I'm glad you spent the time writing this up, Pop-pop. I appreciate your reflections very much.

Interesting that in the website Susan provides in the opening post of this thread, they provide an essay about St. John of the Cross. It's a bit strange how they use one of his analogies about spiritual perfection and suggest that he was alluding to the sushumna nadi and the two channels on either side. Doubtful!

The Tower of Babel issue is important to consider, and what are one's motives? Once energy gets going and there are so many wonders and powers, the desire to exploit that for narcissistic purposes is quite predictable. K. does bring self-absortion to a whole new level and the journey can be an endless track leading farther from the mundane world, wherein our sanctification lies. I totally see your point here, Pop.

Apart from Christ, who is the very anecdote to our hopeless selfishness, k. could only corrupt us, imo.

Good post, Pop-pop.

About the motives in pursuing k. enlightenment or even spending time researching it, the same important question arises:

Is this the will of the Father for your life?

quote:

About the motives in pursuing k. enlightenment or even spending time researching it, the same important question arises:

Is this the will of the Father for your life?

Your question here gave me pause Shasha. I've spent a great deal of my Christian walk researching Kundalini, even though I have neither had a kundalini awakening nor necessarily seek one.

For some reason however I feel it to be an important area of research and one that should not be ignored by the contemporary Christian world. For good or for evil it seems wrapped up in so many things...I've been excited by it, worried by it, fascinated by it, condemning of it and everything in between...but still I feel called to study it.

But...Is this the will of the Father for my life? I'm not sure, pray for me.

Hi Aviela,
Sounds like you are coming from a good place with this. Makes sense to want to understand what is going on inside your body.

Peace be with you.

Hi Jacques,
I hear you. One does want to be educated about contemporary issues.

And I'll pray for you.

I've had the experience many times of reading something, which leads to something else, which pulls me into something deeper. Then I become aware of this uneasy sense within me that what I'm chasing is totally fruitless. Am I just satisfying my curiosity, stimulating my intellect in service of being distracted from something more important. I stop and think about my boys, the dishes in the sink and other things that I've not done, and wonder: Is this really what I'm supposed to be doing?! NO!!


So yes prayers for discernment especially among the so many good things we can be spending our time doing.

Phil wrote"...pursuing K awakening is fraught with danger, as we really don't fully understand what we're dealing with, here. I'm not sure scientific research can do much to shed light on this topic, though this was a dream of Gopi Krishna."
Dear Phil, your posts have much humility in them and I admire that...you are not arrogant in your faith and I feel you are one in which a two way resepctful conversation can take place. To address some of the issues that have been raised in this thread about pursuing kundalini and whether it's corrupting, etc., I can offer an example of my life: I have endeavored with all my heart to seek first the Kingdom of God, and surrender to God's Will. Whether or not I do it via the Christian way will be left unsaid; but I only wish to know God and the lives of the saints, (especially John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, St. Francis) all beckon to me. I am a Mother of 3 grown children, 4 grandchildren, been married for over 3 decades..and oh yes, I teach a little yoga class at a local Catholic church in my neighborhood. Having studied the many writings of Gopi Krishna for two decades, and dealing myself with a benign manifestation of Kundalini, I feel maybe there is something in my life that might shed light on this difficult subject for others. Posters can take what resonates and leave the rest. I would not have posted the issue about Kundaini research had you not asked me to do so. If you had thought it weird or way off base, I am sure you would not have suggested I get on the forum and post it.
My life has been graced by the experience of what is called Kundalini. It has been called the spiritual force within EVERY human being, either in a dormant or released state. If one wishes to debate that or argue with it, it's your choice. I am simply stating a viewpoint and it may not be held by all; if not, more power to you. It is not some weird energy; "It" is intelligent and works hard in our human frame to remove impurities or blocks which keep us from full communion with the Divine. Gopi Krishna has stated, with full conviction, that this force is the evolutionary force within humans - this force hidden deep in our recesses (and awakened often by mental or physical disclipines) is a snippet of the enormous cosmic force that has created the universe. If this doesn't jive with Christian thought, just give me pause here, because I think there is room to consider a view of Kundalini that emanates from other faiths or traditions. Some consider kundalini to be the source of suffering, not taking into consideration, perhaps, the mental or physical fitness of the person in whom Kundalini has awakened. Birth is not without pain; and the second birth requires each person to cooperate with God's agenda. We can go kicking and screaming or we can listen to guidance from God that we receive from within the depths of our soul and follow our own particular faith. the reason why Gopi Krishna stressed research is because we are dealing with an evolutionary energy that has many ramifications for humankind - we are talking about an overhaul of the nervous system, the brain, and it also speaks to a target and purpose for evolution: a more evolved man and woman. If Kundalini is the mechanism (and bear in mind that many scientists substitute the phrase bio energy for the subtle energy systems that pervade life, so the pranic-like forces that Kundalini unleashes are called a bio-electrical force in the jargon of some reseachers) for upgrading the human to the level of a mystic, or saint, or creative genius, then verification of it by our medical and scientific discliplines may go a long way to not only reconciling religion and science, but reconcile warring religions, and also show that life is a plan of a Cosmic Intelligence (which can be the lauded Trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and that there is purpose to creation; and the sooner that this is recognized, then we can begin as a human species to cooperate with it and with each other. Because so many people across the world, of all faiths, have experiences which fit into the Kundalini hypothesis, and which interpenetrate with the mind, body, spirit, then that seems reason enough for some investigative inquiry. Humanity will be the winner.
And I am totally in agreement that Kundalini per se should not be deliberately awakened - Gopi Krishna said as much! there are perils as you say, Phil, and with good reason. But if it comes as part of grace, which it did for me, then I can't even see it whatsoever as something corruptive. What is important is that I surrender to God the best I can, and be the best human being that I can, serve humanity, serve God, serve my family, and if Kundalini awakens, for me it is there as grace and a blessing. How can Kundalini *not* be part of the Divine? It's in each one of us, and that is the miracle. Knowledge and investigation into Kundalini can help us solve the mystery of our own existence.
There's a wonderful excerpt that I archived from one of Gopi Krishna's books:
"The very fact that the human organism is designed for a rise to another dimension of consciousness of inexpressible glory and beatitude is sufficient to prove that the universe has been planned and designed in advance. This fact, in turn, provides irrefutable evidence for the intuitive idea that a stupendous, divine intelligence is the architect and the author of this creation. It is, therefore, safe to infer that if the fact of the evolutionary dynamics of the brain is confirmed by science, through the study and research on kundalini, the results achieved would provide a most efficacious cure for the current materialistic and agnostic trends, more so for the intelligent sections of mankind.”
Thank you for allowing me to share. I am not desireous of getting into any dogmatic debate and merely wish to share part of my life. Hopefully, readers will understand this, or perhaps this forum is instead intended for Christians only, and if so, I beg your forgiveness for my impudence! I have been so blessed and every day I hope to inch closer to communion with God, and Kundalini in all of "Her" great profundity and grace has been a gift for me. Maybe I'm one of the lucky ones! God Bless All.