Sounds complicated, Tucker, not to mention potentially dangerous, and I cannot shake the impression that the human self is the agent at the center of all this monitoring and manipulating energy. I do not doubt the value of this in terms of health and human potential, but, as you anticipated, question what kind of religious goal is achieved.

Also, I think you under-estimate the degree of enlightenment and bliss experienced by Christian mystics. We are not missing out on anything.

Hi Tucker,

I agree with you that there is a balancing of centers, or as I call it alignment, when we activate Sahasrara. However this balancing is according to an individual nature, so it is not the same for everyone, the bhakta will emphasize the Anahata chakra and the jnani will emphasize Ajna or Sahasrasra.

No need to kill each other if we are different!

The Sahasrara is above the head because it transcends the human condition, the body-mind.

As for my experiences regarding the lotus above the head:

Transcendence
Silence
Peace
Beauty
Love, which is often accompanied by an image of an immense sky of Love in the magenta color, probably without an end, cloud-like but warm. Also, I noticed that when I meditate on Love the respiratory rate drops dramatically to only a couple of breaths per minute.
Nothingness
Emptiness
Fullness
Light
Pure Being, sometimes like a warm ball of light independent of universe or objects
Presence, increased awareness
Timelessness
Being out of space and time
etc.

I want to thank you for sharing your story and insights on the topic on posture and prayer.

quote:

Originally posted by Yogi:
Hi Tucker,

I agree with you that there is a balancing of centers, or as I call it alignment, when we activate Sahasrara. However this balancing is according to an individual nature, so it is not the same for everyone, the bhakta will emphasize the Anahata chakra and the jnani will emphasize Ajna or Sahasrasra.

No need to kill each other if we are different!

The Sahasrara is above the head because it transcends the human condition, the body-mind.

As for my experiences regarding the lotus above the head:

Transcendence
Silence
Peace
Beauty
Love, which is often accompanied by an image of an immense sky of Love in the magenta color, probably without an end, cloud-like but warm. Also, I noticed that when I meditate on Love the respiratory rate drops dramatically to only a couple of breaths per minute.
Nothingness
Emptiness
Fullness
Light
Pure Being, sometimes like a warm ball of light independent of universe or objects
Presence, increased awareness
Timelessness
Being out of space and time
etc.

I want to thank you for sharing your story and insights on the topic on posture and prayer.

Yogi, I just wanted to give you some of my background. Since I have gone off the message board circuit, so to speak, I do not get to visit with yogis anymore and getting to visit with you as a person and as a yogi is fun. I love everybody on this message board but they are not experienced yogis, which is ok and they are very knowledgeable about things and I have learned a lot from them. And I didn't study a tradition so I am what tradition calls a cave yogi. My friend who was a Kriya Yoga master (Yoganada's tradition) once said that cave yogis and mystics can reach the upper knowledge and understanding, but they can not teach because they do not know how they got there .

Yogi I do not know what the first sentence in your post means . What is Sahasrara? From there, "This balancing is according to an individual nature, so it is not the same for everyone, the bhakta will emphasize the Anahata chakra and the jnani will emphasize the Ashasrasra." What does this mean? You can bring things into balance no matter what a person's individual nature is. Now with that said I do understand what you are saying about individual nature, because some people are front energy oriented (pituitary) and some people are back energy oriented (pineal). I know this because I can see the energies that living things give off or radiate. A front energy person radiates chest and a back energy person radiates tush. What a person radiates, or is putting thought into, is what your eyes are drawn to when you look at them. Yogi, I think that you understand this because feeling (placing thought into) an area while one is holding a posture is a critical part of Hatha yoga. Along with being a critical part of all meditation systems that wake things up.

Yogi I just went back to the rest of your post and it says what Sahasrara is . The area above the head! But, what is the rest of it? Balancing is according to individual nature? If it is not the same for everyone, then someone is doing it wrong . Not? How can this be ?

Love, tucker

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Sounds complicated, Tucker, not to mention potentially dangerous, and I cannot shake the impression that the human self is the agent at the center of all this monitoring and manipulating energy. I do not doubt the value of this in terms of health and human potential, but, as you anticipated, question what kind of religious goal is achieved.

Also, I think you under-estimate the degree of enlightenment and bliss experienced by Christian mystics. We are not missing out on anything.

Thank you Phil I get way to intuitive.
Love you, tucker

Hi Tucker,

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but balancing can occur on several different levels, so on some levels it is the same for everyone, but on other levels it is different.

If someone who had a passion for art decided to become a plumber that would be a huge imbalance. So, on that level, the level of personal vocation or mission in life it is not the same for everyone.

By the way, both the words “vocation” (from Latin “vocare”-to call) and “calling” have spiritual roots (called by God).

However, on some other levels, like moral, or logical, or on the level of some general spiritual attitudes, or Logos, you are right, it is probably the same for everyone.

Or did you have in mind the energy aspect?

Perhaps these different aspects of balancing are symbolized by Sushumna-Vajroli-Citrini?

Now I see that your question is very good and thought provoking.

Yogi I looked up the terms that you are using and one is the third eye chakra and the other is the crown chakra. If you are going to bring in personality programming yogi, then you are right, it is not the same for everybody. I was thinking about just waking up the energy centers period without personality programming coming into play. And apparently the crown chakra is the opening of the thousand petalled lotus blossom horizonal with the top of the head. So to you the meditation that I was describing wakes up the crown chakra or the third eye chakra. Apparently you have not gotten to the part where the lotus/water lily blossom lying horizonal floats upwards just off of the top of the head or above the crown chakra which then puts it in the bottom part of the next chakra that is above the crown chakra. The area above the head that Phil was talking about bringing the kundalini up into to bring one into the a closer awareness of the Divine.

And after years of studying Raja Yoga and becoming an advanced student you will be taught the secret of the tiny little root that hangs off the bottom center of the opened Lotus blossom. And at that point you will begin to experience bliss or nirvana and the waking up to the first levels of Divine awareness chakras that are above the head. No kundalini understanding of any kind needed . Because if you are sitting lightly in an open lotus blossom as a ground everything is automatic. This simple meditation once you understand the advanced Raja Yoga secret of the little root hair makes all other meditation systems obsolete. Because once you set up the two open Lotus blossoms and the tiny root hair just off the top center of the head everything that you spend years learning how to meditate on happens automatically. From there all you need is a decent diet and exercise.

My master Lord Jesus showed this little trick to me back during my early thirties back when I was meditating 14 or more hours a day and doing mountain ti chi for exercise. I tabled it as a curiosity because back then I was not ready for things to be solved. I didn't want to be arrived, I wanted to be an explorer. And this little trick will always be a curiosity because nobody really wants to be arrived either . Which is very much ok.

Love, tucker

Hi Tucker

quote:

I tabled it as a curiosity because back then I was not ready for things to be solved. I didn't want to be arrived, I wanted to be an explorer. And this little trick will always be a curiosity because nobody really wants to be arrived either Smiler . Which is very much ok.

By "arrived", you mean enlightenment?


Namaste'...

what an interesting discussion here but i have a question.

i feel because of (kundalini) energy, i can only meditate in the morning or so (if i meditate even few minutes in the evening my energy may become so high i dont sleep that night). even then i become energized greatly within few minutes and i must do exercise to release it. and if i meditate somewhat longer, i become overstimulated and cannot function properly. sometimes my energy is already so high that i have to avoid any meditation. as a meditation technique i become aware of the body (/energy).

at the same time, meditation is the key towards a blissed state?

quote:

Originally posted by Les:
Hi Tucker

quote:

I tabled it as a curiosity because back then I was not ready for things to be solved. I didn't want to be arrived, I wanted to be an explorer. And this little trick will always be a curiosity because nobody really wants to be arrived either Smiler . Which is very much ok.

By "arrived", you mean enlightenment?


Namaste'...

That is a good question Les . What did I mean by arrived? Back in the day (late seventies, early eighties) The main reason for studying a yoga tradition or for studying under one of the Hindu masters or one of their students, at the time, was to achieve the state of "Bliss" or "Nirvana", and the feeling was that when you did, that you had arrived. At the time for the most part they weren't really promoting the concept of enlightenment like they do nowadays. And when the yogi folks and others started to promote "Enlightenment" I started to explore that in depth. And also somewhere back in there I was a member and staff of the first Kundalini help message board that was started on the internet. So at that time I was also exploring the concept of the Kundalini and raising it. I think that this was somewhere around the late nineties, early two thousand.


Love, tucker

quote:

Originally posted by bear:
what an interesting discussion here but i have a question.

i feel because of (kundalini) energy, i can only meditate in the morning or so (if i meditate even few minutes in the evening my energy may become so high i dont sleep that night). even then i become energized greatly within few minutes and i must do exercise to release it. and if i meditate somewhat longer, i become overstimulated and cannot function properly. sometimes my energy is already so high that i have to avoid any meditation. as a meditation technique i become aware of the body (/energy).

at the same time, meditation is the key towards a blissed state?

Bear what kind of meditations are you doing ? Bear there are meditations that will put you to sleep and meditations that will wake you or some part of you up. Bear there are all kinds of meditations. Bear when you learned the meditations that you are doing, what did the teacher tell you that these meditations were for? I have meditations that I can not do in the evening because they are high energy and I have meditations that I do at night that can put me to sleep like flipping a light switch. Bear what kind of meditations are you doing?


Love, tucker

quote:

Originally posted by Tucker:

quote:

Originally posted by bear:
what an interesting discussion here but i have a question.

i feel because of (kundalini) energy, i can only meditate in the morning or so (if i meditate even few minutes in the evening my energy may become so high i dont sleep that night). even then i become energized greatly within few minutes and i must do exercise to release it. and if i meditate somewhat longer, i become overstimulated and cannot function properly. sometimes my energy is already so high that i have to avoid any meditation. as a meditation technique i become aware of the body (/energy).

at the same time, meditation is the key towards a blissed state?

Bear what kind of meditations are you doing ? Bear there are meditations that will put you to sleep and meditations that will wake you or some part of you up. Bear there are all kinds of meditations. Bear when you learned the meditations that you are doing, what did the teacher tell you that these meditations were for? I have meditations that I can not do in the evening because they are high energy and I have meditations that I do at night that can put me to sleep like flipping a light switch. Bear what kind of meditations are you doing?


Love, tucker

hi Tucker

yes if i follow my natural flow of breath, it calms me down. or if i just focused on outside e.g. outside the window it would calm me down. sometimes im just spontaneously in a no-thought state and i guess thats also meditation.

the meditation that i "practice" is Vipassana meditation. i did the 10 day camp for three times (10 full days of silent meditation). the first time i did it was 5 years ago, and the first two camps were hard but good. the third one was more of a "nuisance" as there i had to stop the meditation practice repeatedly (and switch to only observing breath) due to the feeling of being about to literally explode. i had so much energy that i wanted to play soccer or whatever for hours, not sit on a camp. it was a bit unBEARable.

anyways in Vipassana you do body scanning and i feel the energy flows nowadays immediately as i start it. that energizes quickly my whole body and soon i must stop.

Goenka (the teacher) says along the lines this is the technique one needs to let go of all negative feelings and cravings, have more awareness in life, and that this is the "ultimate" technique (so according to him). the psychological benefits come from becoming aware quicker in daily life if one becomes angry or afraid or whatever as one has the access to the body awareness and physical sensations of any emotion. he does not mention kundalini.

i feel any meditations where i focus on parts of my body (e.g. focusing on a certain chakra), energizes me in this way. at the opposite, any meditation where i dont focus on my body or focus only on breathing, calms me down.

quote:

Originally posted by bear:

quote:

Originally posted by Tucker:

quote:

Originally posted by bear:
what an interesting discussion here but i have a question.

i feel because of (kundalini) energy, i can only meditate in the morning or so (if i meditate even few minutes in the evening my energy may become so high i dont sleep that night). even then i become energized greatly within few minutes and i must do exercise to release it. and if i meditate somewhat longer, i become overstimulated and cannot function properly. sometimes my energy is already so high that i have to avoid any meditation. as a meditation technique i become aware of the body (/energy).

at the same time, meditation is the key towards a blissed state?

Bear what kind of meditations are you doing ? Bear there are meditations that will put you to sleep and meditations that will wake you or some part of you up. Bear there are all kinds of meditations. Bear when you learned the meditations that you are doing, what did the teacher tell you that these meditations were for? I have meditations that I can not do in the evening because they are high energy and I have meditations that I do at night that can put me to sleep like flipping a light switch. Bear what kind of meditations are you doing?


Love, tucker

hi Tucker

yes if i follow my natural flow of breath, it calms me down. or if i just focused on outside e.g. outside the window it would calm me down. sometimes im just spontaneously in a no-thought state and i guess thats also meditation.

the meditation that i "practice" is Vipassana meditation. i did the 10 day camp for three times (10 full days of silent meditation). the first time i did it was 5 years ago, and the first two camps were hard but good. the third one was more of a "nuisance" as there i had to stop the meditation practice repeatedly (and switch to only observing breath) due to the feeling of being about to literally explode. i had so much energy that i wanted to play soccer or whatever for hours, not sit on a camp. it was a bit unBEARable.

anyways in Vipassana you do body scanning and i feel the energy flows nowadays immediately as i start it. that energizes quickly my whole body and soon i must stop.

Goenka (the teacher) says along the lines this is the technique one needs to let go of all negative feelings and cravings, have more awareness in life, and that this is the "ultimate" technique (so according to him). the psychological benefits come from becoming aware quicker in daily life if one becomes angry or afraid or whatever as one has the access to the body awareness and physical sensations of any emotion. he does not mention kundalini.

i feel any meditations where i focus on parts of my body (e.g. focusing on a certain chakra), energizes me in this way. at the opposite, any meditation where i dont focus on my body or focus only on breathing, calms me down.

Well Bear, according to what I could gather from the Wikipedea the meditations that you are doing are Buddhist. And the Samatha (mindful breathing) and the Vipassana (mind body awareness) are suppose to be done together as a system that leads to enlightenment. The Samatha is the relaxing part of it and the Vipassana is the deal with stuff part of it. Now with that said the Samatha meditation is the meditation that you would do before you go to bed and I do a similar focusing on breath meditation to relax myself to go to sleep. I also do a lot of body scanning, my whole waking day is constant body scanning and I didn't know that the Buddhist had a meditation system for that and that it was an important part of achieving enlightenment. And based on why I do it and the results from doing it I would have to agree with them. But body scanning "will" keep you awake at night because of the energy it creates. But it, as a mind body exercise, is a must for mind body awareness and understanding.

Bear you do know that the Vipassana that is taught by the Buddhist is designed to change your personality programming (how you think about things) so that you can break the three Dharma Seals? And that things that result in changing one's personality programming (how you think about things) also causes uncontrolled Kundalini problems (hard to handle high energy mind body states)? Bear, what was the goal that you were seeking when you went to the Buddhist meditation camp? And just for fun, why three times?

Love, tucker

quote:

Originally posted by Tucker:

Well Bear, according to what I could gather from the Wikipedea the meditations that you are doing are Buddhist. And the Samatha (mindful breathing) and the Vipassana (mind body awareness) are suppose to be done together as a system that leads to enlightenment. The Samatha is the relaxing part of it and the Vipassana is the deal with stuff part of it. Now with that said the Samatha meditation is the meditation that you would do before you go to bed and I do a similar focusing on breath meditation to relax myself to go to sleep. I also do a lot of body scanning, my whole waking day is constant body scanning and I didn't know that the Buddhist had a meditation system for that and that it was an important part of achieving enlightenment. And based on why I do it and the results from doing it I would have to agree with them. But body scanning "will" keep you awake at night because of the energy it creates. But it, as a mind body exercise, is a must for mind body awareness and understanding.

Bear you do know that the Vipassana that is taught by the Buddhist is designed to change your personality programming (how you think about things) so that you can break the three Dharma Seals? And that things that result in changing one's personality programming (how you think about things) also causes uncontrolled Kundalini problems (hard to handle high energy mind body states)? Bear, what was the goal that you were seeking when you went to the Buddhist meditation camp? And just for fun, why three times?

Love, tucker

oh, i never heard of Samatha but it makes sense to make it balanced. good point! actually the thing is i went to this Vipassana meditation course as i wanted to "learn to meditate" as i had issues with ghosts back then and intuitively i thought meditation could help in that. it was not about choosing a particular technique or a particular tradition but i just wanted to learn how to meditate. the original purpose got lost in the way and i became interested in the psychological benefits i felt Vipassana could offer. for the course yearly attendance is encouraged (even when it runs on a donation basis so no business involved) so i was one of the many who did it multiple times. the third time became probably the last time due to the explosive states.

Vipassana course is good so i recommend it warmly to people in general. i have never heard of Dharma Seals though. actually only recently i have become a little bit interested in some theoretical bits of spirituality. Vipassana has been a way to meditate and beyond the perceived psychological benefits i have not kind of had the interest. only recently i have started to feel that some theory is good for the practice, for instance the fact that Samatha is to accompany Vipassana. it is because only recently i have started to uncover that... i am.... spiritual and that there is kind of no way out.

Goenka talks about change in the reaction pattern (e.g. not becoming annoyed due to an external stimulus) and maybe that is the personality programming you refer to? beyond that i have noticed of having become much more sensitive in general. may i ask, if you do body scanning a lot daily, do you or have you suffered from insomnia because of it? also, how have you handled these hard to handle high energy mind body states that body scanning + kundalini may have produced?

as a sufferer of severe insomnia during periods of high energy i have felt a need to limit this body scanning greatly, even to the extent of avoiding it. however i shall cooperate some calming practice and see how it goes.

quote:

Originally posted by bear:


oh, i never heard of Samatha but it makes sense to make it balanced. good point! actually the thing is i went to this Vipassana meditation course as i wanted to "learn to meditate" as i had issues with ghosts back then and intuitively i thought meditation could help in that. it was not about choosing a particular technique or a particular tradition but i just wanted to learn how to meditate. the original purpose got lost in the way and i became interested in the psychological benefits i felt Vipassana could offer. for the course yearly attendance is encouraged (even when it runs on a donation basis so no business involved) so i was one of the many who did it multiple times. the third time became probably the last time due to the explosive states.

Vipassana course is good so i recommend it warmly to people in general. i have never heard of Dharma Seals though. actually only recently i have become a little bit interested in some theoretical bits of spirituality. Vipassana has been a way to meditate and beyond the perceived psychological benefits i have not kind of had the interest. only recently i have started to feel that some theory is good for the practice, for instance the fact that Samatha is to accompany Vipassana. it is because only recently i have started to uncover that... i am.... spiritual and that there is kind of no way out.

Goenka talks about change in the reaction pattern (e.g. not becoming annoyed due to an external stimulus) and maybe that is the personality programming you refer to? beyond that i have noticed of having become much more sensitive in general. may i ask, if you do body scanning a lot daily, do you or have you suffered from insomnia because of it? also, how have you handled these hard to handle high energy mind body states that body scanning + kundalini may have produced?

as a sufferer of severe insomnia during periods of high energy i have felt a need to limit this body scanning greatly, even to the extent of avoiding it. however i shall cooperate some calming practice and see how it goes.

Yes Bear "not becoming annoyed due to external stimulus" is one example of personality programming . And a good example! Everything that we do and how we think is personality programming. When you change the way you do things or think about thinks you are changing your personality programming so that you do things or think about things differently. Bear apparently you are suppose to master the "Samatha" meditations first, before you start the Vipassana meditations in most Buddhist traditions, but Goenka as a Buddhist master says no that you don't need to. So he teaches just the Vipassana. The Samatha teaches you how to quiet the mind then once you have a quiet mind then you start do the vipassana meditations. The reason that I do not have a problem with doing the body scanning is because I have already learned how to have a quiet mind. And without a quiet mind, body scanning meditations are going to create very high energy states.

Bear, have you ever meditated on your "nose"? Spent time feeling your nose with your mind? With a little practice feeling your nose with your mind makes you feel really good. Instead of doing body scanning, do "nose" scanning. Just the areas of your nose. Your nostrils, the tip of your nose, the bridge of your nose, above the bridge of your nose, the sides of your nose, the energy fields that are all around your nose. Do body scanning on just your nose and nothing else. And while you are doing it, notice how feeling/scanning the different areas of the nose and the areas around the nose makes you feel. Each area of the nose makes you feel differently but not bad. And when you can feel the whole nose and the energy areas that surround the nose all at the same time it makes you feel good all over . Try some nose scanning Bear just for fun . It is a fun thing that a person can do with meditation.

Love, tucker

quote:

Originally posted by Tucker:

Yes Bear "not becoming annoyed due to external stimulus" is one example of personality programming . And a good example! Everything that we do and how we think is personality programming. When you change the way you do things or think about thinks you are changing your personality programming so that you do things or think about things differently. Bear apparently you are suppose to master the "Samatha" meditations first, before you start the Vipassana meditations in most Buddhist traditions, but Goenka as a Buddhist master says no that you don't need to. So he teaches just the Vipassana. The Samatha teaches you how to quiet the mind then once you have a quiet mind then you start do the vipassana meditations. The reason that I do not have a problem with doing the body scanning is because I have already learned how to have a quiet mind. And without a quiet mind, body scanning meditations are going to create very high energy states.

Bear, have you ever meditated on your "nose"? Spent time feeling your nose with your mind? With a little practice feeling your nose with your mind makes you feel really good. Instead of doing body scanning, do "nose" scanning. Just the areas of your nose. Your nostrils, the tip of your nose, the bridge of your nose, above the bridge of your nose, the sides of your nose, the energy fields that are all around your nose. Do body scanning on just your nose and nothing else. And while you are doing it, notice how feeling/scanning the different areas of the nose and the areas around the nose makes you feel. Each area of the nose makes you feel differently but not bad. And when you can feel the whole nose and the energy areas that surround the nose all at the same time it makes you feel good all over . Try some nose scanning Bear just for fun . It is a fun thing that a person can do with meditation.

Love, tucker

actually it was about this kind of "nose focusing" technique the first few days it was used in Vipassana course (anapana technique) to calm down the mind, and to be able to learn Vipassana. actually in the beginning we were only observing the natural flow of the breath and then after some time focusing on the small triangular area of the nose. however, it was also said in the end of the course that for future practice Vipassana meditation is to be done 2 hours daily. Additionally few minutes of compassion meditation was also recommended and this anapana technique of focusing only if so required -if the mind has become wild (i cannot remember anymore whether it was about following the breath or focusing on the triangular area of the nose).

so according to Goenka, mind focusing exercise needs to be done before learning Vipassana but not simultaneously after learning Vipassana. i wonder how it actually is in Buddhism or generally -whether mind sharpening practice is required simultaneously with body scanning practice. but you recommend it?

in my third Vipassana course after having done these mind sharpening practices for about 3.5 days and after starting Vipassana practice, these explosive super high-energy states happened until the end of the course. so mind focusing practice didnt prevent it, and i felt the cause was somewhat directly kundalini energy. and body scanning causes high energy states are when "kundalini" energy is somehow more active. of course there may be a way to control the effects of body scanning even when it is due to kundalini.

this gave me something to try out and contemplate about though right now will get myself out of this common cold