Hi Phil and all,
One of the basic shifts I have experienced is from expressing sexual energy downward and outward in ejaculatory orgasm, to inward and upward in ecstatic bliss. With the kind consent of my wife, I have reduced ejaculatory orgasms during sex, first to once a month a year ago and now, not at all. We are both 44 years of age.
I still do have nocturnal emissions. But I do not experience them as an energy drain; instead, they seem to give balanced energy. Over the past year, I have had about a dozen, and they are becoming less overtly sexual. For example, a couple of days ago, I had an emission during a dream that consisted only of gazing at a deep-red rose in dim light.
There is more I could say, but I will wait for feedback. I feel rather alone in this, and yet the rewards have been enough to keep me going solo. I'm not complaining, in fact, I would recommend it to others with similar life-situations and dispositions. If there are others out there on a similar path, I would love to compare notes.
Thanks for consideration of this delicate topic.
Ryan, I've replied to your topic in a private message. Check your profile folder to retrieve it.
I think this is a good topic, but, as you noted, quite personal and delicate. The link between spirituality and sexuality is well-known, and excesses in sexual expression can definitely influence one's quality of consciousness. Conservation and transformation of sexual energy is something of an esoteric topic, but it may well be part of the meaning of what Jesus had in mind when he talked about one becoming a eunich for the kingdom of heaven.
Darn it! I was hoping to hear what you gentlemen had to exchange on this topic.
Of course, I understand about personal and delicate! It's not a topic I'd share here either in any detail. In my view, other than dealing with our aggressive impulses, the sexual "drive" is certainly the most problematic area of human development.
What did Jesus say about becoming a eunich for the kingdom of heaven, Phil??
Generally speaking, I will say that watching my own sexuality as it's appeared to affect my consciousness and spiritual development, I'm currently at the point where I feel the 'evolution' of sexual-spriitual development is that towards a full merging of our sexual impulses with the will and purposes of the Holy Spirit.
In the highest states of a surrender, it will not even be possible for the sexual impulse to exist outside of union with God. Anything else is a degradation of the love He intends for us. Gone will be the days when the sexual drive is a kind of pressing urge that needs biological release. Gone will be the days when it will need to be redirected or controlled to stay within a covental marriage. Perhaps in our resurrected bodies? That's my fantasy anyway.
much peace to you,
Shasha: "Darn it! I was hoping to hear what you gentlemen had to exchange on this topic. "
LOL Me too, Shasha.
My goodness, deep stuff. I guess that is how it "should" be for priestly celibacy. If the church would just say that, then maybe people would better understand why it's better for priests to be unmarried. Maybe they learn things like that in the seminary? Maybe that's why it's called semin-ary. :-)
Does this appy to women too, Phil and Shasha? Don't mean to shift the topic to women, but have really been curious about this.
I've been completely celibate for two years now. Previously I would do what young single men do when the need arises, so to speak, but I found that any time I indulged my sexual impulses on my own (my! this is delicate!) I opened myself up to the psychic attacks which have been part of my life for the past 10 years or so. It seemed that whenever sexual energy was stimulated outside of a loving male/female relationship, it opened my energy field to the darker energies which attempt to lock on to me. Thus a need for complete celibacy and absolute purity. It's not been as difficult as it might seem (ok, it's really tough at times!), but it has been a gradual process and the grace has really been given me to go there.
It's gotten to the stage now where I can control nocturnal emissions. There's only been one ejaculation in the past six months and that was in the context of a non-sexual, heavily symbolic dream. Don't get me wrong, there's no guilt or shame dynamic at play here - this is a gift of God and the control I'm able to exercise even subconsciously is part of my growing in Him.
What happens now though is quite interesting because there are times when K manifests as pure sexual energy in times of prayer. It seems a lot purer and subtler than normal sexual energy and isn't accompanied by gross sexual images but by almost archetypal images of bejewelled female figures. I'm not too up on Jung or archetypes, and I'm also wary of the temptations of ecstacy involved in tantra and goddess stuff that Shasha has experienced, but I'm interested in the subconscious symbols that the mind creates for sexuality when sexual energy is channelled in a certain way. (I wanted to ask a few question about this on the archetypes topic that's running at the minute on another forum).
This is all accompanied by a deep and, at times, rapturous delight in Christ's presence, and also, unfortunately, by bouts of heavy exhaustion when any stirring of sexual energy can leave me more vulnerable to psychic attack, aswell as pretty sensitive to the rough and tumble of modern living.
I've heard of others having such control, and also of people who, in spite of not having waking orgasms, just don't get dream-triggered orgasm, even if they had wanted to.
I'm curious and would like to ask some questions which you may choose to answer here, or in a private message or not at all. Before you started freedom from nocturnal emissions, how many of them did you have? Did you find them all troublesome, or were some enjoyable?
I remember my first one as an adult. I was away from home, and it made me feel very psychically vulnerable. I felt oppressed and went home as soon as I could get moving. Since then, however, it has not felt like I was opened to psychic oppression by the experiences, except somewhat a few times, though not as bad as that first.
My fear was that women readers might be "grossed out" or otherwise judgmental. I see that is not the case with the two of you. Thanks Maybe I actually have more risk of that negative reaction from men.
Shasha, That sounds something like what I feel often, except that I try to stay calm, and grateful; trying not to associate the feelings with anything violent.
You wrote: "I feel like I've completely 'conquered' all sexual impulses--maybe a gift of celibacy."
And how does that work in your marriage?
There was no staying calm during the violent rushes because it's not an 'as if' quality or even room for any type of feelings. In my case, it really was an explosive rush of out-of-control energy.
Anyway, I am no longer married (very sad to say), so this new-found celibacy is a kind of perfect timing. I guess it's all God's work.
peace to you,
Interesting, Shasha. It so happens I'm going to see a certified breath therapist today who also knows about kundalini.. I feel that K, or whatever other energy it is, is stuck and can't get up into my head. I have a lot of stiffness and blockage in my neck area.. Don't know if this is the same energy you are talking about though. However I can related to having orgasm like feelings in my feet! Gee... I think energy from the earth comes in through the feet. I don't know enough about it to say which kind of energy does what. I do know that certain breathing techniques causes lots of sexual energy which I think is the same as the K energy. Hope this makes sense!
I wonder, is prana or life force the same energy as K energy?
Thanks you so much for all you have shared.
Yes, thanks, Shasha, and Ryan and Katy as well.
Some of you might remember this discussion. It had a promising start before going off into the weeds.
I hope I didn't steer away this discussion from Ryans "issues". Didn't mean to.
Anyway, Ryan, hope you shared all you wanted to.
Will check out the discussion mentioned above!
My basic issue on this particular thread is this: dream-triggered ejaculatory orgasms. What to make of them.
For me, they an unexpected side-effect of rarely having waking ejaculatory orgasms; that rarity due to my preference to conserve sexual energy inward, and upward.
I've had a series of them beginning last summer. In my first two of these dreams, my dream-self was saying, out loud, "no, no, no," trying, by force of will, to resist and failing. Subsequently, my dream-self has been either accepting, or, in one case, even expressing desire, saying, "I want an orgasm."
I have noticed that unlike with waking ejaculations, it is not energy draining. In fact it seems energy balancing.
A year into this path, I'm curious to find out if other adult men have had such experiences; particularly men who are celibate or on a spiritual path where they are sensitive to inner subtile energy.
I have not found any published literature on the topic. I spoke with one ex-monk of the Catholic Franciscan tradition who said that it he had never heard dream-triggered orgasms discussed.
Maybe your body is just trying to balance things out for you.... I don't know a lot about it but I think it may not be meant to go upward.. maybe just some of it?
As far as dream triggered orgasms, I have had them!
Also, why do you think, as a married man, you are meant to be a eunech, if that is what this is called, as Phil suggested? Sorry if I am not "getting it" but those are my thoughts about it.
You wrote: "Maybe your body is just trying to balance things out for you.... I don't know a lot about it but I think it may not be meant to go upward.. maybe just some of it?"
Sounds true to me. To clarify one part: what I mean by what it is that goes inward and upward: "it" is sexual energy, not literal semen, although sometimes it feels as if it is a literal rise. I know the yogis talk about it in literal terms, but I do not see it that way.
You wrote: "As far as dream triggered orgasms, I have had them!"
At the risk of quibbling over details, sometimes I have had dreams where I dreamed I had had an orgasm, but when I awoke there was no physical ejaculation. so my question is, as a woman, how would you know you didn't have such an orgasm as that? Have you thought of the distinction?
You asked: "Also, why do you think, as a married man, you are meant to be a eunech, if that is what this is called, as Phil suggested?"
To put it bluntly: sexual ejaculation is for making babies. my wife tried to have a child and couldn't. we have decided to embrace being child-free. so what is sex for now? my answer: it is for fun and intimacy and energy cultivation. i find non-ejaculation makes for more of it all.
That would all be true for me even without wet dreams. The dream-triggered orgasms, however, have become an added benefit, in part because I like dream interpretation. And this takes that art to a whole new level for me. also, since in some respects, the orgasms and dream that trigger them are a production of my body spontaneously, without my direct ego involvement, that may play a part in insuring that my body gets what it wants/needs; hence, the outward flow is balanced with the inward flow, without one needing to sacrifice the other.
on the point of biblical interpretation, the eunech reference appears in one of the gospels, and only once as i recall. hard to say what it means, but i tend to think of it as physical castration, along the lines of, if your eye causes you to sin, cut it off. have you ever thought about the latter teaching. the eye, the hand == they don't CAUSE you to sin. actually, i think those body parts are polite, poetic trans-locations for what Jesus was really talking about: "if your balls cause you to sin, cut them off." that is how the kings kept their eunochs in line, and i have no doubt it was effective in terms of porclivity toward lust and anger based violations. regardless, i'm not feeling called to "cut off my balls," either literally, or psychologically. although i think there are probably some men -- violators -- who probably ought to, literally, i mean.
i find my blblical connections more in pauline theology, one key passages being his idea of "time apart for the sake of prayer," which, along with some other related passages, suggests that he sees sex energy and prayer energy as being in some respect, either/or. again, hard to know exactly what he means, but in my experience, the most starkly either/or aspect is this: waking ejaculations diminish my enjoyment of contemplative prayer. and conversely, fewer waking ejaculation is, i believe, an integral part of what set the stage for my receiving the gift of contemplative prayer. who knows? maybe that is what Paul was getting at. If i had "cut off my balls" it might have made me less prone to lust and anger, but then, i would have also lost that energy source, that, when redirected, becomes so life giving and transformative.
Yes, I knew what you meant... not literal semen.
Concerning your dream.. all I know is that men can have orgasm without ejaculation and so I thought that is what happens in your dreams.
Also if you think it is only for babies, and if your wife agrees, do what you think is right.
I was thinking of the scripture too, that a husband and wife can abstain for a "season" if they both agree.
Castration of those kings... yes, to keep them in line.. but you know what Jesus said about cleaning the outside of the cup, and not the inside of the cup..(something like that). So, yes I have thought about the plucking out the eye, etc. verses. So I'm glad you're not thinking of cutting anything off. lol . I don't mean to make light of this.. Like I said I don't know much about it, and I certainly can't speak from a male point of view or experience.
I do believe and agree that this energy can be "wasted", especially in this day and age... sex, sex, sex. People need to redirect this energy upward and use it in love, prayer and service.
I wonder if the "Theology of the Body" addresses any of this stuff.
Well, Ryan, I think we're pretty much on the same page concerning this.
For more on women's dream triggered orgasms, see this:
Kinseys definition addresses my question of how a woman would know: the orgasm wakes her up.
A few thoughts, just in the FWIW vein:
1) Without commenting on something beyond my expertise, one might still wish to Google +prostate +celibate
2) While my energy experiences were manifold times more somatically pleasurable than any orgasm, they never had a sexual overtone or context. Not overtly. Not implicitly. Not physiologically either. I really would not have believed any of this, myself, if I had not experienced it firsthand.
It was erotic in one limited sense insofar as I sensed a Presence, Whom I begged not to leave me.
Come out, come out, wherever YOU are! [inside joke between me and It]
I know that this is an old thread, but Phil, from a Catholic Point of view, would it be sinful to engage in sexual intercourse in the way that Ryan describes since it is not procreative (even though his wife cannot conceive)?
P.S. I am exploring Catholic Theology as I feel called to reflect on the validity of the Catholic Churches claim to be the One Holy and Apostolic Church - if it is then I should be part of it...not sure yet.
Jacques, I'm not sure what part of Ryan's posts you're referring to, but, no, it's not wrong to engage in "non-procreative" sex. If a man or a woman are infertile, they (husband and wife) are not prohibited from having sex for that reason. Obviously, older women are infertile and there is no ban on sex for them. Even a couple who are fertile are permitted to have non-procreative sex using natural means, such as Natural Family Planning.
It was my understanding that coitus interuptus is forbidden by the Catholic church because it does not fulfill the procreative element of sexual intercourse i.e. if semen is not deposited in the vagina then that sexual act is considered sinful. Therefore if ejaculation is withheld then is this not also considered an incomplete sexual act and judged in the same way?
Jacques, I know there are moral theologians who place great emphasis on the biological aspects of the sex act, but, taken as a whole, the teaching considers the "unitive" aspects as well -- what's happening in the relationship. That makes more sense to me than keeping track of what's happening with our sexual "plumbing."
Maybe another thread on Catholicism and birth control would be in order, here, although that's a "hot potato," to be sure.
I see, I suppose I have stumbled across those Catholic writers who take a more fundamentalist approach to the biological over the relational. I just assumed that this was the offical church teaching on this issue. It was taken from sources relating to the aspect of Catholicism and birth control which concered me a little. Does the church teach that unconfessed and unrepented use of birth control (except the accepted NFP) will result in eternal damnation, or is it considered a lesser sin that will not result in the loss of salvation?
Personally, I don't ascribe to the notion that any act can be considered a mortal sin without considering the context of the act and the intent of the person.
Check out http://www.freewebs.com/catholicbirthcontrol/ for a somewhat "progressive" discussion of this topic.
Jim Arraj also has a good book:
See what you think, and talk it over with a priest.
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