Dear friends, I am in a terrible mess. So much hellish pain, so confused, so much contradicatory reading stuff...
I cannot handle it. I tried Phil's 'God, the self and ego' and though it is very good, I asked myself one question after another: is the self the spirit, what are the faculties of the soul (reason, will, imagination?), what about emotions and feelings, what about the 'nous' and the mystic heart, what about lower and higher senses...? It is a real labyrinth this topic of anthropology...
I want to grasp everything and know how it relates to each other, but the more I wish to control or see things clearly, the more everything escapes me. I am also bothered by the suggestion of Phil to practice some therapy. I have done so much and I have enough of it. We probably don't have the holistic therapists here that you have, so what to do? Maybe the NES http://www.nutrienergetics.com/ is doing it's work in me, but I cannot handle it, so tomorrow I have another appointment with the homeopathist. I suffer so much from the fact that my heart seems closed. I am running around in circles and instead of tryoing to relax as much as possible as John of the Cross also advices, my false self program drives me to more reading and trying to comprehend what is happening. Sorry for all interesting ideas in you dissertate, Phil (f.e. on Thomas Aquinas, whom I never read), but it is too much. And apart from NES and a body therapist (postural integration), I don't really know what to do with this lasting pain, except tryng to be still and wait for God.
Please someone who can comfort me in these dark dark times (without wanting to be overly self-complaining!)!!! More knowledge about ego, self, soul, false self... won't get me any further, I suppose, but is some sort of evil spirit that keeps me busy mentally...
I hope someone understands, I am sure someone will!
Fred

Otherwise, one excellent title on biblical anthropology please!!!
Fred

Dearest Freddy,

You are not alone. I certainly understand what you describe. I read a lot as well and as you say when contradiction is perceived in the reading materials, then I experience confusion and doubt. I am learning painfully slowly to let it all go. Some years back I downloaded and copied the picture of Jesus that Phil has on his website. My practice is to continue to turn my focus back on Him when my mind wanders off again and again trying to figure it all out. The visual seems to help at first until hopefully I feel His Presence and can close my eyes and Rest in Him. If the rest doesn't come then I accept my situation, ask for His mercy and just keep practicing bringing my mind back to Him.

Also I've noticed placing myself before Him in my imagination as a little child asking for help often brings Him quickly to my aid.

I have active kundalini and all this mental energy causes painful headaches so I'm highly motivated to learn to quiet my mind and rest in God.

Actually today's devotional from "My Utmost for His Highest": http://www.heartlight.org/cgi-shl/my_utmost/utm.cgi might be helpful.

I hope my contribution helps in at least some small way. You are in my prayers.

With Sincere Compassion,
Tate

Hey Freddy,

I so hear your pain. I read and read and read and read and read until I am so confused and so depressed at not being able to uncover any certainty that I can do nothing. A while ago I caught myself while doing my usual surfing through Spiritual websites and cried out inside "He's not here! He's not here! I left home and found myself in a book store and sensed the same thought coming from my Spirit as if God were saying to me "I'm not here! I'm not on the internet, I'm not in the books you read, I'm not in this book store, or any other book store!!!

"I'm inside you and that is all you need to know. So stop reading and start praying".

Needless to say I haven't taken this message to heart strongly enough, I still find myself surfing the web and wandering through bookstores, but whenever I find myself feeling confused and empty, I just remind myself that God is not in these things. They are useful for what they are worth...But they are not God and never will be. Truth in this world...all worldly truth (even about spiritual things) is illusory and fleeting in this world...But Jesus is not and that is why HE alone is the Way the Truth and the Light.

Peach my friend, may God give you Peace!

Hi, Freddy, I can hear your pain, too, and you have given us a good description of what's happening with you. I can understand.

You've got as far as identifying that thinking and reading aren't solving the problem, and that they may in fact be exacerbating it.

You say you don't know what to do with the pain. I think you need to look into deep feeling therapy, where you will be feeling rather than thinking.

My recommendation: Take a week off work and go and see Clare in Ireland.

Thank you so much, Tate, Jacques, Derek. As you feel my pain, I feel your compassion, dear pilgrims with me in Christ! Yes, yes, yes, Christ is not in all those things! He is far above and inside! Today (again) I read in T. Keating 'Intimacy with God'. I was praying the Jesus prayer throughout these last weeks and now there is CP and the continuum on spiritual practices. Oh, let it all be, I said to myself and looked up at my Roublevian Christ-icon and the Mother of God with Christ (me) in her arms.
Do you believe that I had a serious quarrel with a girl friend, who is very devotional, Marian and 'rosary prayer type'(?) and who helped me so much throughout these last difficult years about her being simple-minded! Who do I actually think I am? I pray to God to deliver me from all this hidden pride and 'cleverness'. I am so much longing for humility, gentleness of Christ the Lamb, but also for the strength and courage of Christ the Lion! I am most of the time so hard at myself (and at others), a perfectionism from in my youth (false self program). Please pray for this...
And yes, Clare, where are you? I haven't been at work, so please give me once more your website and e-mail address. Or can someone help me?
Thanks again, brothers!
Fred

Hi Freddy,

I am here. And can still hear your pain and struggles.

And if and when you would like to talk, just let me know, and we can arrange a time which is convenient for both of us. I have sent you an email off group with details of my telephone number etc.,

All manner of things will be well,

Dear Clare,

Thanks for being there. I start working on Monday and then I'll find your e-mail address and website. I still have a lot of holidays to take this year, so I can probably come to Ireland.

Greetings,
Fred

Dear friends,
I have been comforted by A. de Liguori 'Uniformity to the Divine Will'. It is like de Caussade and Luisa Piccareta. I cannot help it but I keep seeing differences rather than complementarity between the teachings and sayings of such people and other like M. Agreda, J. Menendez, M. Alacoque, M. Robin, K. Emmerich, M. Valtorta, Faustina, Marie Ange ... (and many other mystics and visionaries) on the one hand (kataphatic?) and people like T. Keating, J. Main, L. Freeman, B. Griffiths, R. Rohr, R. Panikkar, W. J�ger and so forth on the other hand (apophatic?).
Is this because of the interreligious dialogue, which was unknown before or the impact of psychology and other sciences? Keating f.e. speaks of the Divine Therapist and contemplation aims aot at this deep healing. De Liguori and with him so many others seems to speak another language: abandonment to the Divine Will, whatever happens. I noticed even that Piccareta says that the divine will is the fulness of the Holy Spirit and that this unfolding of the HS is not yet there in this time!
Do we better listen to these visionaries (also regarding spiritual practice)or is it more appropriate to take into account modern insights (f.e. about the unconscious, holistic therapies, psychology in general...)? It is a question I keep having!
Fred

Dear Phil,
Is it possible to reply to my message on the 'Open heart...' thread? I noticed your enthousiasm about de Caussade. I feel it is like de Liguori. m

Maybe all this is already discussed at other places. So excuses for my slowness...
Fred

Fred, I'm sorry to hear of your continuing struggles. I'm not sure how sharpening your understanding of biblical anthropology or Teilhard would be helpful to you, but maybe you'd find this image helpful.
- http://shalomplace.com/books/Universe.jpeg
Human being represented by the triangle.

We also have a good discussion on Teilhard;
- http://shalomplace.com/cgi-bin...;f=2;t=000208#000000

My little dissertation, God, Self and Ego, wasn't intended to be a comprehensive anthropology, but only a way to understand how we might use these terms in light of St. Thomas' philosophy. So, no, there's no treatment of the unconscious, feelings, the faculties, etc. I would guess there's a lot on the net about metaphyscial anthropology, however.

You mention being bothered by my past suggestion to see a therapist or spiritual director. Would you maybe say more about that?

Also, what about just laying all the "reading stuff" aside for awhile? Let your intellect unwind a bit and see what settles out.

Dear Phil,
Thanks for replying. I said this about therapy, because after all I have tried and because of all those different therapies, it is difficult or even impossible to see the wood for the trees. I think that a good body therapy (body-mind integration) can be the best in my case, connected with my NES-treatment http://www.nutrienergetics.com/. I feel also that the unconscious is being unloaded by NES.
As a Christian, I was always reluctant about reiki http://users.skynet.be/courlis...reface_archive.html, but Monday I go to see a Reiki-therapist too.
I had already seen the diagram/triangle. Thanks anyway. I think indeed it is not the time to read difficult stuff on quantum physics (Polkinghorne a.o.) or Teilhard de Chardin.
You didn't react to my continuing question on kataphatic vs apophatic above. I have ordered de Caussade and read as I said along similar lines A. de Liguori 'Uniformity to the Divine Will'.
Very interesting but what about this providence of an allmighty God in all matters (even determinism?) over against our human responsibility and free will?
I had ordered 'Merton's Palace of Nowhere' and it has arrived at the bookstore yesterday. A very good book it is. If you have more suggestions about working with the false self, please let me know.
I possibly go to Clare in Ireland in September or October. Or to a week with Leanne Payne in the Netherlands in October? What would you suggest?
PAX,
FRed

Freddy:

Here's something that helped me considerably, during psychotherapy, when my mind couldn't relax and trust in the simple loving presence of another person. Your statement . . . .

"Very interesting but what about this providence of an allmighty God in all matters (even determinism?) over against our human responsibility and free will?"

This reminds me of how restless my mind was for so long. For me, such endless considerations could never be resolved by the mind, as I was acting out the helplessness and fear of a disturbed early childhoood attachment relationship. I was like a baby who couldn't be consoled and who had no mother that could be trusted to turn to. In fact, I had gotten to the point where I wasn't even going to trust somebody who could be trusted. And so my mind tried, automatically as the internal dialogue is want to do, to defend itself from intimate connection through endless search for meaning. The symbolic acting out of the terror of aloneness, inadequacy, annihalation, etc, was in the anxiety of not being able to know anything without absolute certainty. This hypervigilance didn't start healing until I began doing body-oriented psychotherapy, but with an emphasis on non-verbal connection with the therapist.

One way that we discovered to form those connections was allowing the therapist to literally hold me in his mind while I just sat across from him and rested. I say "literally" because he would hold me in his mind in a loving way, allowing me to let go of trying to hold myself together in my restless mind, and learning to trust that I could fall apart without going to pieces. This experience of being held by another allows the mind to rest from its defensive posturing; it isn't something that the attachment disturbed mind can do for itself. Human development requires that another person give us this experience, and then, once internalized, we have a preconceptual capacity to rest. But it comes in steps, and there are moments of restlessness that seem uncontainable; however, simply letting the therapist know, briefly and simply, like "I'm nervous about God, theology," or anything else that naturally lends itself to free association (but without prolonged story), can then be included in how the therapist holds you. Then you know he/she is holding just what scares you the most, along with holding all of you that is more than any of the parts.

The attachment disturbed mind fears it won't be able to protect us unless it is absolutely certain. It needs what it can never have, which symbolizes the plight of the attachment starved child, but in a way that protects us from having to feel a pain that actually isn't as terrifying as the mind projects. Having it be terrifying insures that this part of the mind doesn't cease to exist, when actually it will be re-incorporated into something more nourishing if we allow somebody else to hold us in their mind and heart while we rest. We can't rest until we allow somebody else to hold us in this way.

Freddy,

I can also relate somewhat to how you feel about reading, reading, reading, and contradictions.

I still struggle with it.. I love to Google!! LOL. But then sometimes, I hear in my spirit, "don't ask google, ask God".

Do you read the Bible? If you want to read something else , read "Poustinia" by Catherine De Hueck Doherty. She says to sit with nothing except the Bible...

I am 65 yrs. old.. Years ago I really got into reading.. (in the 70's) searching, and just got more and more confused. I can remember to this day saying to myself, " there are a thousand voices screaming in my brain, speak Thou alone to Me, Oh God."

Oh, I still read a lot and sometimes my intellect still gets carried away. When I read J.B. or W.C. posts, my brain gets REALLY, well, I don't know the right word for it. LOL.

Which reminds me, maybe, lighten up? I don't for a minute discount your pain. I've been there.
But I have learned that the mind, intellect can be our enemy when it comes to the simple message of Jesus.

Hope some of this helps. You are not alone!

Katy

Freddy, also read "Batttlefield of the Mind", by Joyce Meyer..

And work on developing your intuition... and your right brain, and spiritual faculties as opposed to the constant intellectualizing.

Hope you are feeling better.

Katy

Hello Freddy,

I think I mentioned way back that I was a spiritual bypasser for most of my life, having no connection whatsoever to the hurt little girl within me, and seeking mysticism above all else. I am a member of another forum, and someone posted this recently, and I thought I would share it with you. I hope it both comforts and challenges you Freddy to become the beautifully fully functioning, human being you already are.

SPIRITUAL BYPASSING
Spiritual bypassing is the use of spiritual beliefs and/or practices to �rise above� or otherwise avoid dealing in any significant depth with our unresolved wounds and related emotional and behavioral problems. It perhaps most commonly can be seen in the minimizing or superficializing or outright negation of our �negativity,� and in the taking of impersonal or prematurely transpersonal stands on personal concerns.
Spiritual bypassing is a dehumanizing practice, however much it may talk about light and love and compassion. It is the headquarters of the talking school of spirituality. As much as it goes on and on about transcending egoity, it is little more than spiritualized egoity referring to itself as �I� � it's no surprise that spiritual bypassing is especially common in spiritual paths that treat ego as something to eradicate (rather than as something to illuminate and integrate).
The greater the pain of our unresolved wounds, the greater are the odds that we � if we are invested in being �spiritual� or in being seen as �spiritual� � will manifest some form of compensatory self-inflation (however humble its robes), whether it be metaphysical grandiosity (�You created your past, including all that childhood abuse, so just let go of it�) or self-proclaimed transcendence of personal issues, perhaps gazing with conceptual compassion upon those less evolved persons who insist on digging around in and trying to �work� with their pain (instead of simply going beyond it).
This is spiritual bypassing in its grosser form, wherein spiritual practice and attainment is used to avoid directly dealing with � and unguardedly feeling � the raw reality of suffering. Here, the apparent �shoulds� and apparent altitude of spirituality are employed to keep us dissociated or otherwise removed from our pain, especially the pain resulting from the more troubling times of our past.
Many, many get stranded here, assuming that if they are not feeling better from their spiritual practices, then all they need to do is go more deeply into such practices; if this fails, their tendency then is to blame themselves, even as they resolutely cling to the demands and expectation of their spiritual path. Unpleasant though their falling short spiritually may be, at least they don't have to directly deal with their core pain.
More unfortunate than these are those who do �succeed� at spiritual bypassing, not only consistently avoiding their core pain, but also finding a relatively steady comfort and pleasure in their spiritual practices. I say �unfortunate� because they, given their degree of satisfaction, are less likely than those who aren't doing so well at spiritual bypassing to take the plunge into working directly and deeply with their wounds.
In spiritual bypassing, psychotherapy is generally relegated to something for the seriously neurotic, something that at best only strengthens the very egoity that spirituality is supposed to eradicate. Devotees of spiritual bypassing are blind to the spiritual dimension of good psychotherapy, psychotherapy that is integrally-informed, and not just in theory. Spiritual teachers who don't support their students in doing some psychotherapy � perhaps because they themselves are all but clueless about it and its benefits � are doing their students a disservice, overemphasizing the importance of doing spiritual practice.
Spiritual bypassing keeps us stuck at a �higher� level that is really only higher in a merely conceptual sense; it's as if we're taking up residence on Floor 5 without having passed through Floors 2, 3, or 4. We've crystallized at Floor 5 and have all the right furniture and accoutrements for that level, while the floors below us deteriorate due to the lack of our attention and presence. Only when Floors 2, 3, and 4 � unexplored and unoccupied � reach the point of undeniable disintegration, do we start to realize that we're on very unstable ground, at which point we hopefully get off our bypass and get back on track, however painful or humiliating that may be.
When transcendence of our personal history takes precedence over intimacy with our personal history, spiritual bypassing is inevitable.
And spiritual bypassing does not always look like spiritual bypassing. For example, if someone asks us � in our teacherly role or position � about a difficulty they are having bringing together their spiritual practice with the demand of their intimate relationship, and we only give them a �Big Picture� answer, waxing eloquently about the finite and the infinite, etcetera, then we are engaged in spiritual bypassing, no matter how articulate and precise our answer may be, for we are, however inadvertently, avoiding dealing directly and relevantly with their personal pain. Yes, our questioner may benefit somewhat from the overview we are presenting, but they are not getting anything suitably personal from us. (The point is not to not give a Big Picture answer, but if we are to give it, to do so in intimate conjunction with a psychologically attuned, personally relevant answer.)
In spiritual bypassing, conceptual spirituality often masquerades as real spirituality. And conceptual spirituality can be very comforting, very safe, very easy to trot out, very easy to use to rationalize our removal, especially emotionally, from the more difficult aspects of life. In spiritual bypassing, compassion typically takes form as a proclamation or statement of intention, rather than as a living act, delivered in much the same spirit as flat-voiced military personnel and newscasters talking with professional detachment and disembodied rationality about civilian casualties or how many �troops� were killed in the past month. Here we have numbness (and numbness to our numbness), dissociation, emotional disconnection and desiccation, normalized and made respectable by the authority typically given to such speakers.
The emotional distance that spiritual bypassing provides makes it very attractive to those who crave or make a virtue out of such distance.
The unwillingness or inability to authentically connect with our childlike aspects (our innocence, vulnerability, prerational openness, etcetera), the unwillingness or inability to feel real compassion for the child in us, makes it very difficult, if not impossible, for us to truly touch and heartfully connect with the child in others, so that we tend to stay mired in superficial, far from vulnerable stances with others who are actively working with and through old childhood wounds, even when such work is clearly non-regressive and healing and potently integrative.
Most, if not almost all, meditative practices can be used for spiritual bypassing, their �shoulds� (real or not) infecting us level upon level. Of particular note are meditative practices that tranquilize, rather than illuminate, the mind. They can be very misleading, despite their undeniable calming and relaxing effects. Providing greater calm and relaxation is not necessarily always a good thing, however; some who find such effects through meditative tranquilizing may simply be rendered even more effective in their harmful behavior or work. Tranquilizers, meditative and otherwise, simply numb us, and if we have any investment in being numb, we may be �drawn� to meditative practices that teach and make a virtue out of sedating us. Other meditative practices may also, of course, be used to distract us from our pain and difficulties, but so long as we are consciously and skilfully turning toward our pain and difficulties (so that we're close enough to them to effectively work with them), we will be less and less seducible by spiritual bypassing's strategies.
Spiritual bypassing is more common than we might think; in fact, most practitioners of spiritual disciplines have probably done some spiritual bypassing, especially when they were craving some distance from their everyday psychoemotional difficulties. So let us cast a keenly compassionate eye upon the us who bought into, and still may buy into, spiritual bypassing and the compensatory removal and metaphysical playpens which constitute it.
Moving toward our pain � at the right pace � may not feel good, but is necessary if we are to move through our pain, so that it serves rather than hinders us. Spiritual bypassing is not something to eradicate, but rather something to outgrow . Let us treat it as such, recognizing that real spirituality is not an escape, but rather an arrival. - Robert Augustus Masters

Beannacht

Clare, that's excellent, and is quite common, I believe. I was guilty of this earlier in my life, but eventually came to realize that psychological issues must be dealt with as such -- just as we do with physical issues.

Thank you for sharing this with us.

Thanks to you all for the messages.
I understand exactly what you mean. Anselm Gr�n has written fluently about all this in his 'Spirituality from below' and other books, following the footsteps of the desert fathers, monasticism, hesychasm... who don't speak very much about God, Christ, the HS, Mary, the Angels, but more about the intense struggle (for surrender!) with their inner demons.
Last week-end I went with three lay sisters to the yearly reunion of http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3431/
Though this is quite good (Theresian of Lisieux-like, Eucharistic, Marian, devotional), I heard not one word about human psychology! I think I better stay away from all this and better even minimize contacts with some people I know.
So, tonight I am going to http://www.reikileen.be/, without certain doubts about Tera-mai-reiki! The body therapist who practices 'postural integration' http://www.bodymindintegration.com/PIartikelNLJP.html is al little bit far from my home...
Greetings,
Fred

Hi Freddy,

What are you expecting from the reiki? I dont choose to be a devil's advocate, but is reiki not a form of energy healing, in which the facilitator does all the work, and the client simply lies down on a plinth and is ministered to.

You write about the desert fathers, etc., who struggled with their inner demons, and came out the other end.

To grow in our humanity, it it inevitable that we must enter into it fully, and meet ourselves full on. Will you meet yourself full on in the reiki sessions?

I am very energy sensistive, so have never availed of reiki except with a close friend who is someone who has struggled with their own inner demons, and who has worked through their own psychological issues. I need to know who is putting their energy into me!!

How do you feel as you read this? How do you feel as you read Phil saying " I was guilty of this earlier in my life, but eventually came to realize that psychological issues must be dealt with".

"The body therapist who practices 'postural integration' http://www.bodymindintegration.com/PIartikelNLJP.html is a little bit far from my home..."

Freddy I apologise for projecting here, but I feel to share, that I have a friend who when she had a four year old son, she knew that she needed integrative psychotherapy to become whole. (she had been suffering for many years ) She lived in Wales, and for two days each week, she paid a baby sitter to care for her son and she travelled to London on the train, four hours each way to have her sessions. She did this for two years. She is now one of the finest therapists in the world, a deeply committed catholic, and has a healthy adult son.

It takes enormous courage to take that first step as she did, but I know that so many of us had such painful childhood imprints on our souls that we might never be able to take this step.

And in as much as we on this group, say we are with you Freddy, and we encourage you with kind and gracious words and offerings, the reality is when we do the inner work, we are alone; these are our own demons, and it can be a lonely place. And in saying that, we are the blessed ones because we know that there is something far greater than us or our stories, and this is God to whom we can turn to and share our lonliness and despair, and know that all will be well.

All manner of things will be well.

Dear Clare,
Thanks for the message. I have been to this reiki-session. This woman is however much more than a reiki-master. She has been a Catholic teacher at school and we had a good time together. She is very good grounded and has a lot of humour. She also works with 'The inner castle' of Theresa of Avila.
At the same time, there is a striking syncretism of spiritualities in her thinking and living, which I don't share. There were all kinds of books in the place, even Leadbeater on the sacraments and St. Germain! Light worker, but very monistic and universal holistic as most of them I suppose...
I agree with you fully that I have to deal with psychological problems (what can I more do than being silent, saying my Jesus prayer, sweating it out in this DN?), but am I that confused about the difference between all those therapies? I thought energy work could help me somehow in releasing blockages, although I always have been critical about reiki, that's true!
But through reading f.e. http://www.mysticpeace.com/ (actualizing Theresa of Avila or is this again a gnostic interpretation?), I have been touched by the way Theresa of Avila describes the beauty of the inner castle of the soul. What does our Christian tradition actually say about all this?What about the energies of God in the Orthodox Church? What abouth the richness in hesychasm (with links to Sufism)? What about great humanistic Christian thinkers and visionaries like Hildegard von Bingen, Marsilio Ficino, Robert Fludd, Nicolas of Cusa? Are they disputable? Do you know René Guénon: http://www.amazon.com/Insights...Guenon/dp/0900588330 http://books.google.be/books?id=qEQQht2Y2CQC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=ren%C3%A9+gu%C3%A9non+le+coeur+sacr%C3%A9&source=web&ots=GJXbZi_eIQ&sig=t1wp6yKAIRxc8DdB8cDOZwQ1R6k&hl=nl&sa=X&oi=b ook_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA15,M1
Years ago I made an interesting study on 'inclusivism' versus 'exclusivism' and I noticed that there are as much Christian 'inclusivists'(beginning with Clemens of Alexandria) as there are 'exclusivists'! What about people like Abhishiktananda, Bede Griffiths, who integrate different traditions? What about http://www.musicandmeaning.net...rticle.php?artID=3.2 I read an interview with this Iégor Reznikoff and was astonished by his work.
What I wish to say is: I know there are good and bad energies, but I feel more and more that the immanentism of God is believed but not fully experienced within the Church. God is in everything, which means in every human being, and speaks through our body, through nature, through sacral music and sounds, ...
I more and more feel stuck between a traditional, church imposed speaking of God (certainly in devotional circles) and what the findings are of all these different traditions through the intercultural and -religious dialogue. I just went to Mass where some text of Paul on our spirit and the Spirit of God was read. I had the strong feeling that this text, which is so many times preached from the pulpit, is not understandable except from a deeper, contemplative point of view. And this is I suppose the case with everything the Bible says. Am I becoming a gnostic or an adept of esoteric Christianity?
Do you mean 'postural integration' sounds good to you?
PAX,
Fred

Freddy,

I sense that you and I are at a crossroads, and I feel unable to answer any further questions, or share my feelings around your sorrowful predicament. Perhaps we are not 'hearing' each other any longer.

I am sorry Freddy. You must choose your path, and not mine, and any coercion by me of you to choose the route of psychotherapy or other experiential therapies would be a dishonoring of your freedom.

All I can say in closing, is that I spent most of my life searching for God and my real self, but all the while I merely stood on the shore - sometimes dipping my toe in that water.

I had to come to realise that all my approaches to wholeness in the past,(albeit good ) left me stranded on the shore. Now, by grace, I know what water feels like on my skin, instead of paradoxically needing to continue talking about it endlessly and seeing my journey as the right one.

Beannacht

Clare,
Thank you for your honest message. I feel yesterday I was (as always when I am 'trying' something new) too much confused and chaotic in my mind. It is my old 'control program' coming up. Today my mind is much clearer. I am still at home with my swollen foot for 2 weeks and I am writing this from an internet office. I have to say since some days the pain in my chest is much less.
I still want to ask you one more question:
As you see there are always doubts in my mind about what to do. Do you think whether Jesus prayer or Centering prayer (as Thomas Keating exposes) can be sufficient to go the proces of healing (unloading of the unconscious) or is there some primal therapy necessary in my case?
I said before that Leanne Payne is coming to the Netherlands in October for one week (expensive!)and a girl friend urges me to go there...yet another option.
Greetings in Christ,
Fred

From Freddy: As you see there are always doubts in my mind about what to do. Do you think whether Jesus prayer or Centering prayer (as Thomas Keating exposes) can be sufficient to go the proces of healing (unloading of the unconscious) or is there some primal therapy necessary in my case?

Freddy, what are your doubts about? How to grow closer to God? To be relieved of your sufferings? These are two different concerns.

Do you have a good spiritual director you can talk to regularly -- preferably someone who also has a deep understanding of psychological issues? I think you'd find that most beneficial.