Hi All,

I'm new to the forum. I have a question about the dark night of the soul and memory loss. John of the Cross says that in this state that we have some trouble with memory. I recently had experiences of forgetfulness that's out of the ordinary for me. One example is I asked my sister a question and I found out from her that I'd asked that question twice before and got an answer each time. When I asked those two questions I was in a more ego centred distracted state then when I asked the third. It seems to me when I come back to mindfulness after being in the distracted state I can't be quite sure what I did or said in that distracted state.

I'm not in the dark night all the time and when I'm in it I have other markers, longer for God without sensible presence, feeling like I'm being burnt away, like there are two people in me, the peaceful one and the crazy one.

Is this the type of memory loss John of the Cross is talking about?

I do have a chronic illness which may cause an effect too, it doesn't feel like it though.

Welcome to the forum, asperillus.

My understanding of SJOC here and my own experience is that dark nights do not impair memory in the sense of our ability to look back and note "what happened." It's the affectivity associated with prior memories that can be lost, for awhile, or even transformed.
- see https://shalomplace.org/eve/for...10625/m/22610875/p/1 for prior discussions.

Of course, any of us will experience lapses when we're preoccupied, which might come with dark nights or stress. Your chronic illness and whatever medications you're taking might also have an impact. Then there are the consequences of aging . . .

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
... Then there are the consequences of aging . . .

Right, a process known as Age Associated Memory Impairment, which is distinguished from early signs of a disease process like Dementia or Alzheimers.


http://www.human-memory.net/disorders_age.html

And then there's menopause in women which contributes to memory loss and cognitive confusion.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/243053.php

"The most important thing to realize is that there really are some cognitive changes that occur during this phase in a woman's life ... If a woman approaching menopause feels she is having memory problems, no one should brush it off or attribute it to a jam-packed schedule. She can find comfort in knowing that there are new research findings that support her experience. She can view her experience as normal."

All,

In Ascent III, 2:4 -- SJOC states that annihilation of the memory is a prerequisite for union with God.

In 2:6 he states that even if others were to inflict pain on a person they would not feel it.

Those are interesting statements to be sure. The latter seems akin to what might go on under hypnosis I could believe.

Anyway, it doesn’t seem that depression per se, or the dark night per se is what the saint sees as operative here. It also seems to be more than a loss of affective memory that he is discussing -- in those passages, anyway.

So much of what the saint says seems to need experience of the reality to really be understood.

On another note:

Phil, I have never understood the difference between phantasy and imagination in SJOC’s thinking. Can you help me understand the distinction? He definitely seems to hold them distinct.

Pop-pop

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:
All,

In Ascent III, 2:4 -- SJOC states that annihilation of the memory is a prerequisite for union with God.

In 2:6 he states that even if others were to inflict pain on a person they would not feel it.

Those are interesting statements to be sure. The latter seems akin to what might go on under hypnosis I could believe.

Anyway, it doesn’t seem that depression per se, or the dark night per se is what the saint sees as operative here. It also seems to be more than a loss of affective memory that he is discussing -- in those passages, anyway.

So much of what the saint says seems to need experience of the reality to really be understood.

On another note:

Phil, I have never understood the difference between phantasy and imagination in SJOC’s thinking. Can you help me understand the distinction? He definitely seems to hold them distinct.

Pop-pop

My understanding of this is similar to how one might "forget himself" when deeply in love. Memory in the way SJOC talks about it, if I remember correctly, is basically the mental impression that is created internally via input from the five senses. This encompasses not only our own "image" of the world but largely our own image of self and the relationship between the self and the world. I would imagine that this would indeed need to be abandoned in order to truly have union with God, even if only so that it could be reconfigured by the Holy Spirit into something different.

I think you're on the right track, Paul. His apophatic asceticism was more about negating forms presented by memory as a means by which one interacts with God (the exception being the form of Jesus).

See http://www.johnofthecross.com/...ohn-of-the-cross.htm for a more technical discussion of what SJOC (using scholastic philosophy and its view of the faculties) meant by memory. It's doubtful that this would include the loss of a sense of where one was or did earlier in the day, or last week, etc.

Paul & Phil,

But how do you guys reconcile that with what he says in 2.6?

Pop

A little more context:

quote:

4. Beginning, then, with natural knowledge, I say that natural knowledge in the memory consists of all the kinds of knowledge that the memory can form concerning the objects of the five bodily senses — namely: hearing, sight, smell, taste and touch — and all kinds of knowledge of this type which it is possible to form and fashion. Of all these forms and kinds of knowledge the soul must strip and void itself, and it must strive to lose the imaginary apprehension of them, so that there may be left in it no kind of impression of knowledge, nor trace of aught soever, but rather the soul must remain barren and bare, as if these forms had never passed through it, and in total oblivion and suspension. And this cannot happen unless the memory be annihilated as to all its forms, if it is to be united with God. For it cannot happen save by total separation from all forms which are not God; for God comes beneath no definite form or kind of knowledge whatsoever, as we have said in treating of the night of the understanding. And since, as Christ says, no man can serve two masters,481 the memory cannot be united both with God and with forms and distinct kinds of knowledge and, as God has no form or image that can be comprehended by the memory, it follows that, when the memory is united with God (as is seen, too, every day by experience), it remains without form and without figure, its imagination being lost and itself being absorbed in a supreme good, and in a great oblivion, remembering nothing. For that Divine union voids its fancy and sweeps it clean of all forms and kinds of knowledge and raises it to the supernatural.

- - -

6. And sometimes this oblivion of the memory and suspension of the imagination reach such a point, because of the union of the memory with God, that a long time passes without the soul’s perceiving it, or knowing what has taken place during that period. And, as the imaginative faculty is then in suspension, it feels naught that is done to it, not even things that cause pain; for without imagination there is no feeling, not even coming through thought, since this exists not. And, to the end that God may bring about these touches of union, the soul must needs withdraw its memory from all apprehensible kinds of knowledge. And it is to be noted that these suspensions come not to pass in those that are already perfect, since they have attained to perfect union, and these suspensions belong to the beginnings of union.

- from http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/ascent.vi.ii.html

Seems he's referring to how memory feeds into imagination, and how in the Dark Night all projections through imagination come to cease.

Note the qualifer, "And sometimes . . . " as in periods of ecstatic union, I'd guess, of the sort one has "in the beginnings of union," as he notes.

As far as the reference to feeling pain goes, I think it speaks to how sensory input and things that happen "to us" from an external source are all filtered through memory and this internal image. What we "feel" and how something "feels" to us is all dependent upon how we process things internally. On a lower, less ecstatic union, this same effect can be seen in how we might process hurtful words or actions that, if we were not in some kind of process of union with God, might hurt us emotionally. That is, we see and interpret violence done against us differently when we are in relationship with God than we would otherwise. Spiritual processes like this are inherently intensified and made more physical when dealing with ecstatic experiences - this is the very nature of an ecstatic experience, in fact.

SJOC talks about forgetfulness and memory a lot it seems. I've tracked down the passage I was thinking about:

quote:

Ch. 8. If the soul sometimes prays it does so with such lack of strength and sweetness that it thinks that God neither hears it nor pays heed to it. Indeed, this is no time for the soul to speak with God – it should rather put its mouth in the dust, and endure its purgation with patience… It has such distractions and times of such profound forgetfulness of the memory that frequent periods pass by without its knowing what it has been doing or thinking. #2. This unknowing and forgetfulness are caused by the interior recollection wherein this contemplation absorbs the soul.

I pretty sure it's not menopause, I'm male I'm also 33, maybe not age related just yet.

As regards to pain there have been scientific studies regarding this and what myfutureself say corresponds to that research. There's a difference between "pain" and "pain that hurts" or "suffering". Regardless of the spiritual level we are at there are signals sent to our brains indicating there is some bodily damage occurring. Whether that pain signal hurts or not depends on our emotional investment in the area affected.

This something I have experienced myself e.g. cramps are no longer a problem for me.

Adam

Thanks guys!

You know it’s interesting how difference in translations can affect one’s understanding.

I use the translation by Kiernan Kavanaugh O.C. D. and Otilio Rodriguez O.C.D. of the Collected works of SJOC. The latter is a Carmelite historian from Spain. Carmelites are quite fond of this translation. It is their mystical bible – in a sense.

Here is how 2:6 reads:

“Sometimes this forgetfulness of the memory and suspension of the imagination reaches such a degree – because the memory is united with God – that a long time passes without awareness or knowledge of what has happened. Even though others may inflict pain on a person in this state, he does not feel it, since the imaginative power is in suspension, and without the imagination there is no feeling. That God may produce these touches of union, the soul must disunite the memory from all apprehensible knowledge. These suspensions, it should be noted occur at the beginning of union, and are not thus found in souls who have reached perfection, because the union is then perfect,” (italics mine)

Notice both the strength of that italicized statement and the fact that it does not appear at all in the translation that Phil had found (shown again below).

“6. And sometimes this oblivion of the memory and suspension of the imagination reach such a point, because of the union of the memory with God, that a long time passes without the soul’s perceiving it, or knowing what has taken place during that period. And, as the imaginative faculty is then in suspension, it feels naught that is done to it, not even things that cause pain; for without imagination there is no feeling, not even coming through thought, since this exists not. And, to the end that God may bring about these touches of union, the soul must needs withdraw its memory from all apprehensible kinds of knowledge. And it is to be noted that these suspensions come not to pass in those that are already perfect, since they have attained to perfect union, and these suspensions belong to the beginnings of union.”

To me that others inflicting pain would not be observable to a person experiencing union is akin to what the soul could endure in an hypnotic state (that you would read about in Alois Wiesinger’s book Occult Phenomena that Phil I know is familiar with). It seems to me to be far removed from memory loss due to depression or from loss of affective feelings of psychic pain associated with one’s memories. This seems a few tads of higher degree of suspension. (imo anyway)

Here is the sentence in 2:4 that I had been referring to in my post.

“The annihilation of the memory in regard to all forms is an absolute requirement for union with God. This union cannot be wrought without a complete separation of the memory from all forms that are not God. For as we mentioned in the night of the intellect, God can not be contained in any form or distinct knowledge”


This is from Phil’s source:

“And this cannot happen unless the memory be annihilated as to all its forms, if it is to be united with God. For it cannot happen save by total separation from all forms which are not God; for God comes beneath no definite form or kind of knowledge whatsoever, as we have said in treating of the night of the understanding.”

Not as substantive a difference perhaps between these, though ‘absolute requirement’ is far stronger to my mind. I light up more in reading and reacting to the translation I have.

Anyway it’s all quite interesting. I know that I once in a while leaf through a book that claims to be 'updated for the modern reader' (or something similar) and I wince at the differences in tone and what they produce. Just a Blue-meme thing from a crotchety geezer I guess.

In the end though, I (as a Blue-meme) see it this way: when in Rome do as the Romans do,and when studying Carmelite Mystical Doctors read what the Carmelites read.

Pop

Thanks for getting back to us, Adam. The distinction you're making is one I've heard about pain vs. suffering.

- - -

To really understand what SJOC is saying, we'd have to grasp what he means by memory. Jordan Aumann (a Thomist, like SJOC) makes a distinction between the sense memory and the intellectual memory.
- http://ia700301.us.archive.org...itualTheologyall.pdf
Modern psychology will also speak of the affective memory, or how feelings from previous experiences are part of our memory of them.
Then there is also what we might call factual memory -- the "what happened" aspect, which I don't think we ever lose. SJOC could surely tell you who his parents were and what he had for breakfast.

I think the whole point of it is that in the transformative process, memory is purified in such manner than memories reinforcing the "old man" of Paul or false self of modern writers are dried up. They no longer exert a kind of inner pull toward sinfulness, nor do they feed into the imagination to produce distractions during prayer. None of this is a work that we do, but a consequence of deepening union with God, whereby all of the faculties (including intellect and will) become passively receptive to the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you Phil when the habit of union is achieved there's not the type of forgetfulness I'm talking about.

But when one's soul is "at the beginning", St John says,:

quote:

it is very negligent concerning its outward behaviour and usage — forgetting to eat or drink, and being uncertain if it has done this or no, if it has seen this or no, if it has said this or no — because of the absorption of the memory in God.

Asscent of Mount Carmel, ch. 2:8
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/ascent.vi.ii.html

Seems to me that by this quote, early on the path to spiritual union, JOTC could have forgotten what he had for breakfast, or if he had breakfast at all.

Adam

Well . . . LOL! Could be. Of course, his stomach would remind him about the need for food, shortly. There are times of disorientation, when awareness is fragmented or unable to focus on specifics. With a little effort, however, one can usually avoid walking into walls.

As I've noted in previous discussions, it's good to remember that the over-arching context in SJOC is contemplative union, as he makes clear in the passage you linked to. Memory is becoming absorbed in God, Who exerts such a strong gravitational pull on it as to wrestle its control from the "natural man." This is part of the rebirthing process, but it does not imply a permanent situation. If that were the case, SJOC would have forgotten the language of the culture, how to read, write, dress, etc. Obviously, he did not.

In my own experience and in working with directees, what seems to happen is that the memories associated with the "natural man" (especially the affectivity of prior Ego states) is dessicated so as not to exert any significant influence on the will. So read on:

quote:

9. Hence it comes to pass that the operations of the soul in union are of the Divine Spirit and are Divine. And hence it comes that the actions of such souls are only those that are seemly and reasonable, and not those that are ill-beseeming. For the Spirit of God teaches them that which they ought to know, and causes them to be ignorant of that which it behoves them not to know, and to remember that which they have to remember, with or without forms, and to forget that which they should forget; and it makes them love that which they have to love, and not to love that which is not in God. And thus, all the first motions of the faculties of such souls are Divine and it is not to be wondered at that the motions and operations of these faculties should be Divine, since they are transformed in the Divine Being.

There could be other explanations for memory loss, however. If one is not especially prayerful or committed to living by spiritual principles, the first place to go would be to one's physician rather than a spiritual director.

Makes sense, sounds good.

I also have some memory problems which are rather disturbing. My work requires me to do quite a bit of driving, and at times I will completely forget where I am. This happens on local streets that I've traveled probably thousands of times. As best I can tell, this lasts not more than a minute or so, then the memory snaps back into place like a rubber band that has been temporarily stretched.

A couple of days ago I had this experience in my own kitchen, which was disturbing. Whether this problem is spiritual or physiological or some combination of the two, I cannot say. I also cannot say if this is what SJOTC was talking about or not. I only know that this is part of my life now and there's really nothing I can do about it.

Tim

quote:

I'm new to the forum. I have a question about the dark night of the soul and memory loss. John of the Cross says that in this state that we have some trouble with memory. I recently had experiences of forgetfulness that's out of the ordinary for me. One example is I asked my sister a question and I found out from her that I'd asked that question twice before and got an answer each time. When I asked those two questions I was in a more ego centred distracted state then when I asked the third. It seems to me when I come back to mindfulness after being in the distracted state I can't be quite sure what I did or said in that distracted state.

That must be disconcerting, Tim. I don't know if you've read through the whole thread (you cite only part of the opening post) but we did a fair amount of reflecting on what memory loss in the Dark Night is about. Also:

quote:

There could be other explanations for memory loss, however. If one is not especially prayerful or committed to living by spiritual principles, the first place to go would be to one's physician rather than a spiritual director.
- quote from March 21, above)

Can you say a little more about the spiritual context for your experience?

Phil, thanks for your reply. You wrote:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:
That must be disconcerting, Tim. I don't know if you've read through the whole thread (you cite only part of the opening post) but we did a fair amount of reflecting on what memory loss in the Dark Night is about.[QUOTE]

Honestly, I read it all except for the links and I still don't know. However, I am not the sharpest intellectual tool in the shed and my powers of concentration are not much as of late.

[QUOTE]There could be other explanations for memory loss, however. If one is not especially prayerful or committed to living by spiritual principles, the first place to go would be to one's physician rather than a spiritual director.
- quote from March 21, above)
Can you say a little more about the spiritual context for your experience?[QUOTE]

I wouldn't know where to begin or what to say. However, if I were to judge myself from the above I would say this: Not only am I not especially prayerful, but have no prayer life at all to speak of. If there is any such thing as spiritual principles, there would be no corresponding faculty in me capable of following them. Regarding physicians, I don't have a regular one, so it would probably have to be the quick healthcare route for me. Either way, I can pretty much assure you they wouldn't be able to do anything other than tell me to keep observing and let them know if it gets any worse (I don't have insurance). Finally, to the ever elusive spiritual director: Unfortunately, it (spiritual direction) has to be piecemeal for me, a little here and a little there. That seems to be the pattern for me and I have learned not to question it. Luckily, on a more cheerful note, I'm not too picky about my sources.

Tim

quote:

Not only am I not especially prayerful, but have no prayer life at all to speak of. If there is any such thing as spiritual principles, there would be no corresponding faculty in me capable of following them.

That all pretty much eliminates the "Dark Night" as a contributing factor to your memory lapses, Tim. I'd surely get it checked out via "quick healthcare" or some other medical route if the problem continues.

quote:

That all pretty much eliminates the "Dark Night" as a contributing factor to your memory lapses, Tim. I'd surely get it checked out via "quick healthcare" or some other medical route if the problem continues.

Phil, I appreciate your concern, but no thanks on both counts. Now, if it's all the same to you, I'll keep plodding ahead with this journey, still not knowing, which I am okay with. I'll catch up with you somewhere on down the line.

Tim

I can't say that I suffer from memory loss, but ever since I live with kundalini awakened, I have often thought that I was becoming stupid, stupid in the sense of having less mental capabilities.

I do not believe this actually is the case. Rather, the mind is less hectic and remains more "on the spot" and focusses better on the subject. And the result is actually the contrary of the impression: with less "thinking", more is achieved.

I have passed through several Dark Nights. It is comparable to - in my experience - wading through a swamp of demons, demons fabricated by yourself. Dark Nights become difficult if you give power to the demons and try to run. If you can accept the demons for what they are, then the problem annihilates itself. The "loss of memory" might be seen as "dealing with your past". With kundalini spreading, I have found that dealing with demons becomes almost easy... But until it becomes "easy", it involves a great deal of suffering.

Aion, those interior landscapes are indeed frightening no matter what metaphor we use to describe them, and it is very hard not to run. More and more often, I find that silence is the only response I can muster in the face of such horrors. Perhaps this inner ugliness represents what we are when all the illusions are stripped away. Feels like death, spiritual death.

I never thought of memory loss as an outward representation of an inward process, but that is an interesting possibility. I had only considered it as either a physiological problem or a more or less random by-product of inner spiritual upheavals.