One way to understand it is that his ascended body is conterminous (great word, look it up ) with his soul, which is fully integrated with the Word, which is everywhere.

The human soul, as a spiritual entity, transcends space and time. This means that it is open to the space-time cosmos in such a manner that it has no specific locality. The physical body anchors the soul in space and time, but a resurrected body is not subject to this restriction.

Sort of the basis for sacramental presence?

So what happened to his body, did it simply "expand into eternity.

The body of Christ is not located on a particular place. He is everywhere. After ascension Christ seats on the right side of God. At the same time he is available to all humanity. His energy is the only pure energy in the universe which works as interface between the Father and us. This is why Christ explicitly said he is the only way. He works through Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit guides us, teach us and above all purify us in order to embody Christ the New Adam. In this process our old nature which is Old Adam transmuted to the New Adam of Christ.

"Yes" to w.c. and "amen" to Grace's post.

To clarify a bit more, however, eternity is not a place or space to expand into. It's kind of tempting to think of God as a mega-space that holds even the universe, but that's not how theology describes it. Eternity is a dimension beyond time and space, and God is present to the time/space creation completely rather than in diffused manner. IOW, God is completely present to everything; his presence is not diffused or diluted throughout.

It's not easy to speak of what happens to a human body that enters into eternity; all that we can do is use analogies, and even these are crude and probably inaccurate. One day we'll actually see for ourselves how this works, and then we'll have the answers.

So phil,

in terms of Panentheism is it wrong if it teaches that God is kinda spread out across everything that exists?

In Henri Nouwen's "thought for the day" book, Bread for the Journey, today's lesson has to do with the theme of this thread. I like his interpretation very much. (sorry for the long quotation, but I couldn't link it.)

"The Coming of the Son of Man

The spiritual knowledge that we belong to God and are safe with God even as we live in a very destructive world allows us to see in the midst of all the turmoil, fear, and agony of history "the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Luke 21:27). Even though Jesus speaks about this as about a final event, it is not just one more thing that is going to happen after all the terrible things are over. Just as the end-time is already here, so too is the coming of the Son of Man. It is an event in the realm of the Spirit and thus not subject to the boundaries of time.

Those who live in communion with Jesus have the eyes to see and the ears to hear the second coming of Jesus among them in the here and now. Jesus says: "Before this generation has passed away all will have taken place" (Luke 21:32). And this is true for each faithful generation."

Wow, I like that. That is kind of how I think it is. Ryan, how do you get Henri Nouwen's "thought for the day" book?

Katy

Hey Ryan,

Great to see you've been allowing this subject to grow in you. I must be honest, I was myself unsure as to what Grace had seen (or rather what he had interpreted), it is great to see that others have "seen"/"experienced" the same reality. It puts a great perspective on this whole discussion. Thanks a lot.

Much Love in the Lord Jesus
Jacques

quote:

Originally posted by Katy:
[qb]...how do you get Henri Nouwen's "thought for the day" book?[/qb]

I get the free ebook version daily via email from this place:
http://www.henrinouwen.org/home/free_eletters/

I've been reading the book off and on for several years, and Nouwen still surprises me.

I lean more toward NT Wright's analysis that this particular passage refers to the ascension of the Son to heaven, not his coming back. See the following articles:

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/31/story_3134_1.html
http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wr...Farewell_Rapture.htm

and of course his book "Jesus and the Victory of God" which is a thorough and formidable coverage of this subject.

The passage in Mark 13:26 is a reference to Daniel 7:13 where "the Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days". Of course prophetic apocalyptic passages tend to be full of difficult metaphors that may have multiple implications and fulfilments both partial and full. In any event this interpretation allows the reference of "this generation" to have a specific historical context of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, which did occur in their generation.

Not that any of this really takes away from Henri Nouwen's application though.

Ryan, it is good to see you delving in this issue. When we allow ourselves to feel the inner voice of Christ he will reveal all hidden things.

quote:

Originally posted by khd:
[qb] I lean more toward NT Wright's analysis http://www.beliefnet.com/story/31/story_3134_1.html [/qb]

in that article, Wright says:
"In Daniel 7, which is clearly referred to in passages such as Mark 13:26 and 14:62, "one like a Son of man" "comes" to the Ancient of Days. The "coming" is an upward movement of exaltation, not a downward movement of return to earth."

Wow, that is different! I'll consider it.

The next link offers even more.
[qb]http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm [/qb][/QUOTE]

Here, Wright, says: "Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which �heaven� is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether."


Khd adds: "In any event this interpretation allows the reference of "this generation" to have a specific historical context of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, which did occur in their generation. "

And further notes:
"Not that any of this really takes away from Henri Nouwen's application though."

Hi Khd. Thanks so much for your contribution. I see that you are new here. What shall we call you? just khd?

I like Wright's point that the Paul, not Jesus, should be credited with creating this scenario in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: (�For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.")

From the little I've read of Wright, he overlooks the possible impact of Paul's mystical experience in shaping his perspective. Recall Paul's reported transport to the "third heaven", the one where he doesn't know whether he was in the body or not. The only biblical scholar (so far as I have found) who gives that experience its due in shaping Paul's theology is Alan Segal (see his book Paul the Convert). I'm not sure how to say it, but it is as if Paul is taking his own experience of being snatched up and projecting it outward as something that all believer's ultimately will experience.

Most people don't have to deal with the problem that Grace and I have -- we ourselves have been "snatched" up into the heavenly realm. My experience was not overtly visionary/apocalyptic as was Grace's. Instead, my "imagination" (as John of the cross uses the term) was darkened. It was a neoplatonic ascent of the soul, via negativa. Dispite our differences, Grace and I share a particular angle in our search for understanding, a rare connection as fellow Christians. This is part of the value of this special forum. (Hi Grace, thanks for your encouraging comments.)

Your further comments, khd, are welcome.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan:
[qb] Hi Khd. Thanks so much for your contribution. I see that you are new here. What shall we call you? just khd?
[/qb]

Call me whatever you want, as long as it is nice . Or you can call me by my given name of Kevin. I suppose I should introduce myself, but it might take a while to do so properly.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan:
[qb]I like Wright's point that the Paul, not Jesus, should be credited with creating this scenario in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: (�For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.")

From the little I've read of Wright, he overlooks the possible impact of Paul's mystical experience in shaping his perspective. Recall Paul's reported transport to the "third heaven", the one where he doesn't know whether he was in the body or not. The only biblical scholar (so far as I have found) who gives that experience its due in shaping Paul's theology is Alan Segal (see his book Paul the Convert). I'm not sure how to say it, but it is as if Paul is taking his own experience of being snatched up and projecting it outward as something that all believer's ultimately will experience.
[/qb]

That is an interesting comment and I must confess I didn't link to that article for his comments on 1 Thessalonians. I would be very sympathetic to that approach. If you don't mind, I will toss in a lengthy quote from "Following Jesus: Biblical Reflections on Discipleship" pp 100-101 by NT Wright that I think is relevant to this discussion:

quote:

'Heaven' is, in fact, one of the most misused religious words around today, with possible exception of the word 'God' itself. The biblical notion of heaven is not of a place far away 'way beyond the blue'. Nor is it simply, as some have said in reaction to that older notion, a state of mind or heart which some people can attain here and now. Heaven is God's space, which intersects with our space but transcends it. It is, if you like, a further dimension of our world, not a place far removed at one extreme of our world. It is all around us, glimpsed in a mystery in every Eucharist and every act of generous human love. We are reminded of it by the beauty of the created order, which in its very transience points beyond itself to the fuller beauty which is God's own beauty, and which he intends one day to bring to birth, as we say so freqently, 'on earth as it is in heaven'.

The Christian hope is not, then, despite popular impressions, that we will simply 'go to heaven when we die'. As far as it goes, that statement is all right; after death those who love God will be with him, will be in his dimension. But the final Christian hope is that the two dimensions, heaven and earth, at present separated by a veil of invisibility caused by human rebellion, will be united together, so that there will be new heavens and a new earth. Heaven isn't, therefore, an escapist dream, to be held out as a carrot to make people better behaved; just as God isn't an absentee landlord who looks down from a great height to see what his tenants are doing and to tell them they mustn't. Heaven is the extra dimension, the God-dimension, of all our present reality; and the God who lives there is present to us, present with us, sharing our joys and our sorrows, longing as we are longing for the day when his whole creation, heaven and earth together, will perfectly reflect his love, his wisdom, his justice, and his peace.

quote:

[qb]Most people don't have to deal with the problem that Grace and I have -- we ourselves have been "snatched" up into the heavenly realm. My experience was not overtly visionary/apocalyptic as was Grace's. Instead, my "imagination" (as John of the cross uses the term) was darkened. It was a neoplatonic ascent of the soul, via negativa. Dispite our differences, Grace and I share a particular angle in our search for understanding, a rare connection as fellow Christians. This is part of the value of this special forum. (Hi Grace, thanks for your encouraging comments.)

Your further comments, khd, are welcome. [/qb]

Well the apocalyptic books and visions in scripture sure haven't lent themselves to a very unified interpretation, so I don't doubt that anyone else's visions will be full of difficulties in interpretation. So far what I have heard of the details of Grace's actual vision seems like an unproblematic recapitulation of biblical statements and images. Unless there is a lot more to the vision's details than I have seen stated in the following:

quote:

The first thing I saw was the glorious Christ surrounded by angels coming down from the above exactly as the Bible described it, a moment later I heard human steps accompanied by very noisy music a kind of hard rock. Then I saw dark energies in a mass flew towards me. I shouted Christ Christ and saw how he was defeated them.

Much more seems to be implied in the discussion, but I can't tell to what extent Grace's interpretation of the vision was part of the vision itself, or separate from the vision and a result of his own mind. Nor do I know to what extent Grace would rather keep the complete details to himself.

I must confess I am intrigued by the whole thing given Grace's background and history. I have never had a vision (unless you count my dreaming of Pope John Paul I's death before it occurred when I was a boy), but I have had revelations/ideas/sentences that popped into my head during prayer or meditation. One involved foreknowledge and it did come true. Others continue to perplex me to this day (including one that occurred towards the end of 2004 oddly enough). But these occasions have been very rare for me. I would be reluctant to comment in any more depth without a more detailed description of the vision, subsequent revelations, and more complete comments on what was concluded by the mind vs. told or seen in revelation.

khd, thanks for the quote you provided us about heaven. I'm really touched by what Wright said. I'm always amazed by the spirit of Christ. He connected us at deeper level beyond any comprhension. The above quote mentioned by Ryan is correct " Those who live in communion with Jesus have the eyes to see and the ears to hear..."

quote:

Originally posted by Grace:
[qb]The above quote mentioned by Ryan is correct " Those who live in communion with Jesus have the eyes to see and the ears to hear..." [/qb]

Yes, and St. Paul was, by grace, given eyes to see through communion with the risen Christ.

Grace, do you have a specific end date for your vision? It wouldn't by any chance be December 21, 2012 would it?

Ryan, God has given us eyes to see and ears to hear to all of us not only to St. Paul. But we were condemned to not see because of original sin. Luckily by the grace of God we are saved by our lord Jesus Christ to see and to hear again.

khd, I don't have specific time or date. What I know is at this moment we are under purification process and this process will be intensified in the coming years. Where did you get the date December 21, 2012? Is it from Mayan Calendar?

Yes. You mentioned 6 years from now. December 21, 2012 is the only date I could think of from any other source. Although I am skeptical of any precise date setting. It seems a truism that the more precise the date, the more certain it is to fail. On the other hand, I can't ignore the fact that the Magi knew something...

Although I mentioned six years the vision I had nothing to do with future telling. As Stephen pointed out "this wasn't seeing into the future, I'm not one for fortune telling, astrology, any of that, but still it happened that my mind was opened (in this instance by K) to the spiritual realms where the future had already happened."
The uplifting experience is more on consciousness level. Neither the physical body nor the soul is moved to another place. When the consciousness widens, deepens and exalted we are able to experience the deeper dimension of life. The problem is this dimension of life is normally invisible for most people and because of it many tend to judge everything from their lower consciousness level. In their eyes that other dimension is non-existent in here and now, it is located somewhere else.