Phil, I do understand your question. I�m fully aware what I�m saying is new for many people. I want to tell you that this is new for me as well. Before I caught up and receive the vision I didn�t know about these things. I kept it secretly more than a year. I think I need to mention something from my spiritual journey before I elaborate because the vision is intimately related with it.

My spiritual journey has been an enigma for me for many years. When I saw those lights around me back in 1998 I didn�t understand why I was experienced it. I knew the light was from God but I had no other information. In lack of knowledge and experience from other my intuition was my only source of information. During those years I read a lot of spiritual books, mainly I read Krishnamurti. I clearly remember the dream I had in 1998. The overall message of the dream was to stop follow (read) K. But I didn�t understand the dream until year 2004. On May 2004 I encountered Christ for the first time in my life. Through the guidance of Holy spirit he told me in an equivocal term that he is the only way and he is my lord. At the same moment the Holy Spirit led me to throw the book of K from the shelf. I have never contemplated, prayed or even thought about Christ before that day. On the same day Christ told me in short summary the narrative of Gospels. The same day I was shown what was happened in 1998 was the light of Christ. Since then Holy Spirit revealed for me the mystery and symbol of Christianity. I have been fully aware that some kind of purification was going on in my life since 1998 but after 2004 I became conscious for what reason I undergo purification. One vital thing happened in this purification process is the gift of spirit discernment. Through this discernment I became aware not only people�s spirit but also on what is going on on unseen or spiritual world. At first I was confused when I suddenly become conscious of other people�s spirit especially when I was negatively affected by it. What I want to say is the spiritual transformation process I'm in since 1998 is a preparation to the second coming of Christ. I literally went and still go this journey alone but Phil has been a great help in this process.

Through the gift of spirit discernment I felt and seen both holy angels and evil spirits. However, what was happened at the end of 2004 was very unique. While I was sitting in my room and meditate I suddenly felt a movement of high energy vibrate inside my head then I caught up and found myself on spiritual level. The first thing I saw was the glorious Christ surrounded by angels coming down from the above exactly as the Bible described it, a moment later I heard human steps accompanied by very noisy music a kind of hard rock. Then I saw dark energies in a mass flew towards me. I shouted Christ Christ and saw how he was defeated them. Immediately after the battle I returned back and knew intuitively what it means. What I have seen was the second coming of Christ. There are many things revealed for me which I can�t go in detail now but to answer your question: There are many levels to the Earth's consciousness, as there are to our human consciousness. Everything that happens on one level gradually moves down through the other levels. For this reason I preview in the ethers what will be happening on physical earth in the coming years. It is said that everything that will occur has already happened. This is why I say Christ has returned back. At this time there are very few people who know about this but gradually many people will know about it. Many have already started to feel that they live in the last part of end time. I know only two people who have similar vision and experience like me. I hope it helps.

Thanks for your sharing, Grace. Some of your visions resonate with similar revelations described in the Book of Revelation, including that of Christ's glorious second coming and his victory over evil spirit. Through the years, I've heard from several others who've shared visions similar to these, and who are convinced that the end times are near. Perhaps that is so. Certainly, Christ is with us, and the end of this age will indeed come about at some time. When it does, I don't think there'll be any doubt about it.

Thanks again, Grace. Thank you for mentioning Krishnamurti.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti

"Perhaps we have to go back to Gautama to find another teacher as convincingly austere, as rationally lucid and who. offering nothing but liberation from the self, yet can bring conviction
to those who have so often been disappointed."

-Gerald Heard

"Krishnamurti's observations and explorations of modern man's estate are penetrating and profound, yet given with a disarming simplicity and directness. To listen to him or read his thoughts
is to face oneself and the world with an astonishing morning freshness."

-Ann Morrow Lindbergh

It's been a few years since I looked into him, but I take my cues from people like yourself, and may post a few quotes about war and peace from a Krishnamurtian perspective.

God is a consuming fire and cleanses us! Many times I feel as though my bones are pushing through my skin, and cleansers can be abrasive, but more likely it's my stubborn refusal of will. OOfdah!!!

I disagree completely with Grace.
The Lord warns us to never be led by manifestations, but His Word. He tells us to take every manifestation to His Word and see if what is said or seen is in accordance to sound doctrine.

Do not be deceived when people come with visions and dreams saying they have a special revelation that is not in the Bible. Such people are led by seducing spirits. I tell such people frankly that they're being led by the devil. I'd rather hurt some feelings than let people deceive and be deceived.

It grieves me to hear people being so heartless. Hasn't the Holy Spirit been patient with you? Hasn't He warned you? Why do you hurt Him?

I disagree with the what Grace said about Jesus coming spiritually.

Don't mistake me, I believe we're living in the end times and I strongly believe this. But the statement that Grace said is totally unbiblical.

Sid, I understand your anger and frustration. I know the statement I made is threatening to some people�s belief. But don�t cover your frustration by saying my statement is unbiblical. Implicitly you are saying you understand Bible correctly and any other statement differs from your understanding of Bible is unbiblical. I would have shown to you everything I said in my posts is biblical but I refuse to enter in tit tat argument. It is enough to say the Bible said us don�t judge. By judging others you judge your self. I pray for you.

"It is said that everything that will occur has already happened."

I was a bit shocked by your claims of Christ's return, Grace, but, taking into consideration the above quote and your comment on levels of consciousness descending to physical earth, I can understand what you mean by Christ having returned at a spiritual level. In some way this must feed into our hearts and promote the return of Christ there, as a precursor to his actual physical return.

Dear Grace,

Of course, I'm angry. I'm not covering my anger, by saying it's unbiblical. I mean what I'm saying.

About judging, I never judged you. Just as the bible tells us not to judge, it also tells us to discern. Both are found in the same chapter: one in Matthew 7:1-2 and the other in verse 15. Why does the bible tell us to discern, because there are many wolves in sheeps clothing. By saying this, I am not saying you are wolf. I test whatever people say with the Word of God, and if I find it against God's Word, I discard it.

The Word of God is simple, man tries to complicate it with his "big" brains. Man wants attention and he wants others to know he is different from others, receiving "special" revelations that no other person has received. I've been in the Word for quiet a long time, Sister. And I've heard many such religious talks. I'm not impressed. However, I'm impressed with there's true love- God's love, not by a counterfeit love that nods to everything that a person spews out.

I believe in visions and all the manifestations of the Spirit, but the Word of God is my standard. You prove from the Word what you said, and then you have your stand. If not, you are deceiving yourself.

(I'm not being rude, but stern)

Hey Guys,

Dr von anderseck says he has the solution to all this arguing. Maybe you would like to check out what he has to say in his Thesis

I have been trying to get people to interact with me about it, but so far little luck

Stephen, I thank you for understanding me. As usual I appreciate your deep insight.

In some way this must feed into our hearts and promote the return of Christ there, as a precursor to his actual physical return.

That is exactly what I want to convey. Thanks again.

Hi guys,

forget what i said, turns out this guy is probably a false apostle!

Jacques, would you please precise who you mean?

The guy I mentioned in my previous post vonAnderseck

quote:

Originally posted by Grace:
[qb] Through the gift of spirit discernment I felt and seen both holy angels and evil spirits. However, what was happened at the end of 2004 was very unique. While I was sitting in my room and meditate I suddenly felt a movement of high energy vibrate inside my head then I caught up and found myself on spiritual level. The first thing I saw was the glorious Christ surrounded by angels coming down from the above exactly as the Bible described it.... What I have seen was the second coming of Christ.[/qb]

Hi Grace,

A man known as Jonas "White" Stutzman had a vision much like the one you describe. It happened in 1849 in Walnut Creek Ohio where he had been one of the first European settlers. By that time he was in his sixties. His first wife had passed away and he had remarried. His oldest boys were living on the home farm, keeping the place going.

He became convinced that in three and a half years, Jesus would begin his thousand year rule on earth and it was his job to announce it. So he went to the Canton Repository, the closest newspaper, and submitted an article. The editor, a Mr. Nothnagel printed it with a disclaimer saying that is is always prudent to prepare for the return of Christ, but we cannot be sure of the time.

Anyway, Stutzman was an ancestor of mine on my mother's side. And about ten years ago, I started researching the writings and acts. Oh yeah, his acts: he wore all white and built a chair, a slightly oversized wooden chair for Jesus.

While I was researching, I had my own experience of being caught up in the spirit. That was the experience I wrote about here wherein, as I said, "my breath stood still." It would seem I have a family-influenced disposition for rapture.

I didn't "see" anything during the ascent of my soul... it was without imagination as John of the Cross would say. I did have overwhelming bodily sensations and for me it was, I think, substantially transformative. And intuitively, I connect the ascending/descending to Jesus words to Nathanial in John: "you will see angels descending and ascending on the son of man."

I'm grateful for my ancestors story as a backdrop for my own; it helps my see it as not so completely unique.

Enough about me, I'm sharing this in response to what you have said in the hope that it might be of use to you in some way.

Peace of Christ to you,

I think my ancestor, Jonas Stutzman, made some mistakes in his interpretation of the times he lived in, mistakes that I think I might have repeated without the theological education I've received. It pains me to see you making, in my studied opinion, some of the same mistakes he made.

I don't know who Jonas Stutzman and what kind of mistakes he did. I don't know either what kind of mistake you see in my post. Just for you information I didn't predict the time of the second coming of Christ. I don't know either how his manifestation on earth will play out. I only wrote what I witnessed on spirit level. Neither I'm prophet nor I have psychic ability.

Would you please explain what kind of mistake you see in light of your study? I think this will be a good start to our discussion. Let's pray both of us to be guided by Holy Spirit.

quote:

Originally posted by Grace:
[qb]Would you please explain what kind of mistake you see in light of your study? I think this will be a good start to our discussion. [/qb]

Hi Grace,

Thanks for your prayers, I hope that as mine join yours, we will be given greater ability to communicate with one another.

You wrote:

"I didn't predict the time of the second coming of Christ. I don't know either how his manifestation on earth will play out. I only wrote what I witnessed on spirit level. Neither I'm prophet nor I have psychic ability."

I have no complaint about what you have written here. I don't see any "mistake" in it.

You have said, "I know only two people who have similar vision and experience like me." I assume you mean people alive today. Is that what you mean? If so, I am wondering, do you or those two other people see your visions as also possibly similar to the visions of people who have passed away, people who may have lived a hundred or even hundreds of years ago? If you are not open to exploring that possibility, given the value of the historical study of mysticism (as represented, for example, in Bernard McGinn's series, The History of Christian Mysticism), I think that might be a mistake.

Your thoughts?

�It pains me to see you making, in my studied opinion, some of the same mistakes he made.�

Ryan, when you wrote this yesterday you sounded very sure on my mistake to the degree it makes you painful. Some hours later, after my response, your tune has changed when you wrote the following statement �If you are not open to exploring that possibility, given the value of the historical study of mysticism (as represented, for example, in Bernard McGinn's series, The History of Christian Mysticism), I think that might be a mistake.� In your first post you are dead sure about my mistake and in your later post you are only suggesting if that might be a mistake.� I�m interested to learn but I don�t really understand what kind of mistake you are talking about. Since I don�t know the book you mentioned above please try to outline, as much as you can, what you think might be a mistake in the light of MacHinn�s book.

Ok Grace, this project may take some time. My job is taking a lot of hours the next few days. i'll get back to you when I have something of what you asked for.

quote:

Originally posted by Grace:
[qb] I�m interested to learn but I don�t really understand what kind of mistake you are talking about. Since I don�t know the book you mentioned above please try to outline, as much as you can, what you think might be a mistake in the light of MacHinn�s book. [/qb]

Hi Grace,

I�m off from my job today and so free to reply to your challenge.

�Historical interpretation� can rarely be more than plausible suggestion.� (Bernard McGinn, The Presence of God: A History of Western Christian Mysticism, Vol. 1, p. 6) Thus understood, the study of history cannot prove that you are making a �mistake,� what it can do is expand the context of interpretation.

In interpreting autobiographical reports of ascent to the divine realm, historians are not in a position to judge the experience as raw experience. Rather, they have to deal with the report as it appears in texts.

In your posts here on Shalom Place, you have created a text that can, like any text, be interpreted historically. Based on what you have seen in one of your personal ascents to the divine realm, you have written that Christ has returned, Christ has come back spiritually: �The first thing I saw was the glorious Christ surrounded by angels coming down from the above exactly as the Bible described it, a moment later I heard human steps accompanied by very noisy music a kind of hard rock. Then I saw dark energies in a mass flew towards me. I shouted Christ Christ and saw how he was defeated them. Immediately after the battle I returned back and knew intuitively what it means. What I have seen was the second coming of Christ.�

Unfortunately, I have not found any examples in McGinn�s books of anyone claiming that the second coming of Christ has happened, spiritually speaking. I do, however, know of some contemporary American religious groups that do claim that the second coming has already happened spiritually: The Jehovah�s Witnesses and The New Church (Swedenborgian).

Today, I�d like to draw your attention to the New Church. Swendenborg is, like you, from Sweden. Like you, he had visions of the spiritual realms. He is an interesting character. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg
Based on his personal visions and his interpretation of scripture, he wrote that on June 19, 1770, the second coming took place.
http://www.theheavenlydoctrine...tatic/d12851/791.htm

Reading about Swedenborg, his visions and interpretations of scripture will not prove that you have made a mistake. But it might reduce your certainty a little. If you doubt his claim about the second coming, you might also doubt yours, or at least doubt your way of expressing it in writing. I think doubting your own written claims could be a healthy thing. Not doubting that your experience happend to you, but doubting how best to write about it.

Unfortunately, I have not found any examples in McGinn�s books of anyone claiming that the second coming of Christ has happened, spiritually speaking.

Ryan, you couldn�t find any mistake in my writing in light of McGinn�s book. Ok, we leave MacGinn. The next man you wanted me to concentrate is Emanuel Swedenborg. I�m familiar with his work but I don�t know him perfectly. First of all there is huge gap between me and Emanuel. It is difficult to compare me with him. I�m just a simple follower of Christ with some mystical experience. I would like to inform you that I don�t agree with most of his teachings. His understanding of Second coming is in direct opposition to the doctrine of Christianity and I don�t fully agree with him. Emanuel like Mohammed is absolutely sure to what was revealed to him is true. Only God knows if he is correct or not. Here we have again the problem of discernment. That is why I opened a new thread under Spiritual experience to explore the issue in depth.

If you doubt his claim about the second coming, you might also doubt yours, or at least doubt your way of expressing it in writing.

I doubt his claim of second coming but this doesn�t lead me automatically to doubt my expression. In my view our spiritual experience must be judged in the light of God�s word (Bible) and basic Church doctrine. My understanding of Second coming is mostly in line with traditional Church. As I mentioned earlier on there are many levels to the Earth's consciousness, as there are to our human consciousness. Everything that happens on one level gradually moves down through the other levels. For this reason I preview in the spirit what will be happening on physical earth in the coming years. It is said that everything that will occur has already happened. This doesn�t necessary contradict to the teaching of Christianity. I can�t describe the experience fully in words. All in all I can�t see discrepancies in the words I used to describe my experience.

I feel we are reaching the end of our discussion. So, I invite other to jump in and comment.

Well, I wasn't sure that I should interrupt, but since you open the invitation.

I was wondering how firmly you hold to your interpretation of your experience Grace. I mean, I don't doubt your experience, I just wonder whether you are open to new and further interpretations of that experience. I mean say I was thinking that perhaps you saw and heard exactly what you did, but perhaps I thought that it meant something else, would you be willing to dialogue and change your view or do you hold solidly to your interpretation?

Jacques good to see you again. I'm open to any suggestion. You have any?

Well, it is not that I really have an alternative specifically, I was just wondering whether you were saying that 100% definately you know Christ has returned spiritually. Or whether you were open to the fact that perhaps through a vision of the return of Christ God was trying to tell you something else.