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Looking back through the Way of Perfection, I remember reading these words by St. Teresa;


"Turn your eyes upon yourself and look at yourself inwardly, as I have said. You will find your Master; He will not fail you: indeed, the less outward comfort you have, the [much] greater the joy He will give you."

Jim
 
Posts: 52 | Location: Massachusetts | Registered: 01 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
St. Teresa says that when we are distracted, to just say a sacred word and whisper it so softly, as if blowing on a candle flame. Then, when we are back to our state of prayer, the prayer word drifts off and aren’t even said.

Same is true in CP.

The fact is, even when we say the Rosary, we are essentially doing the same as CP, if we are praying in a contemplative manor, and that is, with the consciousness of God's presence.

Our prayer is in the now, not in the future or past. God dwells in the now, within, here and now. Any thoughts about God are our own, not who he is. So, we go to God as God is, not according to the image we've created of him.


Jim, it sounds like CP is working out well for you and that you find resonance of the teachings you've received about it in the writings of the Carmelites.

One distinction I'd make is that CP is not contemplative prayer, as you mentioned somewhere, but a contemplative prayer method. As such, it disposes us to receive contemplative grace should God wish to share this with us; if not, it has its own good fruit in clarifying one's awareness and purifying one's faith intent.

I wouldn't draw too close an affinity between CP and the rosary, however, as the rosary is very much in the kataphatic tradition -- one is saying words, often vocally with others, and meditating on the divine mysteries. The openness to God's presence is there, of course, which is why both can be considered prayer. But they are different kinds of prayer, both good in their own distinctive ways.

Your point about our thoughts about God being our own and not God's is one I've heard from Fr. Keating and CP teachers, and it's one that calls for more discernment, in my opinion. For sure, God is not a thought or concept, but our thoughts and concepts orient us to God and may even be inspired by God. The Holy Spirit addresses us in the fullness of our human nature, including our thoughts, emotions, imaginings, desires, etc. It seems a fundamental premise of CP is that, so long as we are having any kind of activity in our consciousness, it cannot be God we are encountering -- even if it is loving feelings for God that arise in prayer. This is radical apophaticism, for sure, but one has to inquire whether that is the goal of Christian prayer, or whether relationship with God is more to the point. If we concede that it is the latter, and that God is perfectly capable of meeting where we are in our human consciousness with all its various activities, then we look for the evidence of the Spirit in any movements within that incline us toward love, peace, faith, etc., and we do not reject these when they arise during prayer because they are "thoughts, and God is not a thought" (as I've heard some CP teachers put it). Not all thoughts are distractions or strictly of the self; some could very be of-God as well. See what I mean?
 
Posts: 3948 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 27 December 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Phil,

One distinction I'd make is that CP is not contemplative prayer, as you mentioned somewhere, but a contemplative prayer [i]method. [/I]

I'm speaking of prayer in the context of the method used, i.e. Contemplative prayer verses discursice prayer.

As such, it disposes us to receive contemplative grace should God wish to share this with us; if not, it has its own good fruit in clarifying one's awareness and purifying one's faith intent.

I believe you're speaking of Contempation, not the method of prayer itself. Contemplation comes from God, not through our own actions.

I wouldn't draw too close an affinity between CP and the rosary, however, as the rosary is very much in the kataphatic tradition -- one is saying words, often vocally with others, and meditating on the divine mysteries. The openness to God's presence is there, of course, which is why both can be considered prayer. But they are different kinds of prayer, both good in their own distinctive ways.

But a person can be drawn into contemplation through the Rosary as well as other volcal prayers. St. Teresa says as much, but she says its rare.


Your point about our thoughts about God being our own and not God's is one I've heard from Fr. Keating and CP teachers, and it's one that calls for more discernment, in my opinion. For sure, God is not a thought or concept, but our thoughts and concepts orient us to God and may even be inspired by God.

What draws us to God is the love we have experienced from God. St. John of the Cross says it beautifully in his "Spiritual Canticle." I'm sure you're familiar with it, but let me post part
of it for others.

"Where have you hidden,
Beloved, and left me moaning?
you fled like the stag
after wounding me;
I went out calling you, but you were gone."

As St. John explains in his commentary, the wound is the wound of divine love which the soul has been
given a taste of. The wound is so deep and provide, that the soul then goes out into the wilderness searching for her beloved, Jesus Christ.



The Holy Spirit addresses us in the fullness of our human nature, including our thoughts, emotions, imaginings, desires, etc. It seems a fundamental premise of CP is that, so long as we are having any kind of activity in our consciousness, it cannot be God we are encountering -- even if it is loving feelings for God that arise in prayer.

Not exactly. It is when we become aware of our feelings or thoughts going on in our head, that we are to detach from them by returning to the prayer word. St. John of the Cross teaches this himself. Any inspiration of gift God has given us, has reached its full effect in our souls before we become aware. Once we become aware of them, we shouldn't dwell any further, but move back into prayer. If we begin to dwell on them, we begin to insert our own agendas and the ego attempts to attach its identity to them. St. John says, pay no attention to them, move on. In CP, move on merely means, return to the sacred prayer word and your intention of the will, i.e. being in the presence of God.


This is radical apophaticism, for sure, but one has to inquire whether that is the goal of Christian prayer, or whether relationship with God is more to the point. If we concede that it is the latter, and that God is perfectly capable of meeting where we are in our human consciousness with all its various activities, then we look for the evidence of the Spirit in any movements within that incline us toward love, peace, faith, etc., and we do not reject these when they arise during prayer because they are "thoughts, and God is not a thought" (as I've heard some CP teachers put it). Not all thoughts are distractions or strictly of the self; some could very be of-God as well. See what I mean

I think you're actuality saying the same thing Fr Keating teaches and my own understanding of CP.

Remember, Centering Prayer is not new. Its only new to those who have never heard of it before.

Fact is, Fr Keating, and Fr Pennington didn't call it Centering Prayer. They merely called it quiet prayer. The "Centering Prayer," term came out of a week-end retreat they ran for religious. From what I remember, the people attending the retreat pulled it from St. John of the Cross's "Living Flame of Love," and began using the term, "Centering Prayer."

I won't post it here, but if you look at St. John's commentary, take not how often he mentions the word "center," and the context he uses it in.

Anyway, I find the format for posting in this forum a little tedious. I should use "Word" first and then copy past here, but I'm traditionally lazy. Sorry for spelling and gramatical errors.Wink


God Bless
Jim
 
Posts: 52 | Location: Massachusetts | Registered: 01 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JimR-OCDS:
Phil,

One distinction I'd make is that CP is not contemplative prayer, as you mentioned somewhere, but a contemplative prayer [i]method. [/I]

I'm speaking of prayer in the context of the method used, i.e. Contemplative prayer verses discursice prayer.

As such, it disposes us to receive contemplative grace should God wish to share this with us; if not, it has its own good fruit in clarifying one's awareness and purifying one's faith intent.

I believe you're speaking of Contempation, not the method of prayer itself. Contemplation comes from God and not through our own actions.

I wouldn't draw too close an affinity between CP and the rosary, however, as the rosary is very much in the kataphatic tradition -- one is saying words, often vocally with others, and meditating on the divine mysteries. The openness to God's presence is there, of course, which is why both can be considered prayer. But they are different kinds of prayer, both good in their own distinctive ways.

But a person can be drawn into contemplation through the Rosary as well as other volcal prayers. St. Teresa says as much, but she says its rare.


Your point about our thoughts about God being our own and not God's is one I've heard from Fr. Keating and CP teachers, and it's one that calls for more discernment, in my opinion. For sure, God is not a thought or concept, but our thoughts and concepts orient us to God and may even be inspired by God.

What draws us to God is the love we have experienced from God. St. John of the Cross says it beautifully in his "Spiritual Canticle." I'm sure you're familiar with it, but let me post part
of it for others.

"Where have you hidden,
Beloved, and left me moaning?
you fled like the stag
after wounding me;
I went out calling you, but you were gone."

As St. John explains in his commentary, the wound is the wound of divine love which the soul has been
given a taste of. The wound is so deep and provide, that the soul then goes out into the wilderness searching for her beloved, Jesus Christ.



The Holy Spirit addresses us in the fullness of our human nature, including our thoughts, emotions, imaginings, desires, etc. It seems a fundamental premise of CP is that, so long as we are having any kind of activity in our consciousness, it cannot be God we are encountering -- even if it is loving feelings for God that arise in prayer.

Not exactly. It is when we become aware of our feelings or thoughts going on in our head, that we are to detach from them by returning to the prayer word. St. John of the Cross teaches this himself. Any inspiration of gift God has given us, has reached its full effect in our souls before we become aware. Once we become aware of them, we shouldn't dwell any further, but move back into prayer. If we begin to dwell on them, we begin to insert our own agendas and the ego attempts to attach its identity to them. St. John says, pay no attention to them, move on. In CP, move on merely means, return to the sacred prayer word and your intention of the will, i.e. being in the presence of God.


This is radical apophaticism, for sure, but one has to inquire whether that is the goal of Christian prayer, or whether relationship with God is more to the point. If we concede that it is the latter, and that God is perfectly capable of meeting where we are in our human consciousness with all its various activities, then we look for the evidence of the Spirit in any movements within that incline us toward love, peace, faith, etc., and we do not reject these when they arise during prayer because they are "thoughts, and God is not a thought" (as I've heard some CP teachers put it). Not all thoughts are distractions or strictly of the self; some could very be of-God as well. See what I mean

I think you're actuality saying the same thing Fr Keating teaches and my own understanding of CP.

Remember, Centering Prayer is not new. Its only new to those who have never heard of it before.

Fact is, Fr Keating, and Fr Pennington didn't call it Centering Prayer. They merely called it quiet prayer. The "Centering Prayer," term came out of a week-end retreat they ran for religious. From what I remember, the people attending the retreat pulled it from St. John of the Cross's "Living Flame of Love," and began using the term, "Centering Prayer."

I won't post it here, but if you look at St. John's commentary, take not how often he mentions the word "center," and the context he uses it in.

Anyway, I find the format for posting in this forum a little tedious. I should use "Word" first and then copy past here, but I'm traditionally lazy. Sorry for spelling and gramatical errors.Wink


God Bless
Jim
 
Posts: 52 | Location: Massachusetts | Registered: 01 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JimR-OCDS:
quote:
Originally posted by JimR-OCDS:
Phil,

One distinction I'd make is that CP is not contemplative prayer, as you mentioned somewhere, but a contemplative prayer [i]method. [/I]

I'm speaking of prayer in the context of the method used, i.e. Contemplative prayer verses discursice prayer.

As such, it disposes us to receive contemplative grace should God wish to share this with us; if not, it has its own good fruit in clarifying one's awareness and purifying one's faith intent.

I believe you're speaking of Contempation, not the method of prayer itself. Contemplation comes from God and not through our own actions.

I wouldn't draw too close an affinity between CP and the rosary, however, as the rosary is very much in the kataphatic tradition -- one is saying words, often vocally with others, and meditating on the divine mysteries. The openness to God's presence is there, of course, which is why both can be considered prayer. But they are different kinds of prayer, both good in their own distinctive ways.

But a person can be drawn into contemplation through the Rosary as well as other volcal prayers. St. Teresa says as much, but she says its rare.


Your point about our thoughts about God being our own and not God's is one I've heard from Fr. Keating and CP teachers, and it's one that calls for more discernment, in my opinion. For sure, God is not a thought or concept, but our thoughts and concepts orient us to God and may even be inspired by God.

What draws us to God is the love we have experienced from God. St. John of the Cross says it beautifully in his "Spiritual Canticle." I'm sure you're familiar with it, but let me post part
of it for others.

"Where have you hidden,
Beloved, and left me moaning?
you fled like the stag
after wounding me;
I went out calling you, but you were gone."

As St. John explains in his commentary, the wound is the wound of divine love which the soul has been
given a taste of. The wound is so deep and provide, that the soul then goes out into the wilderness searching for her beloved, Jesus Christ.



The Holy Spirit addresses us in the fullness of our human nature, including our thoughts, emotions, imaginings, desires, etc. It seems a fundamental premise of CP is that, so long as we are having any kind of activity in our consciousness, it cannot be God we are encountering -- even if it is loving feelings for God that arise in prayer.

Not exactly. It is when we become aware of our feelings or thoughts going on in our head, that we are to detach from them by returning to the prayer word. St. John of the Cross teaches this himself. Any inspiration of gift God has given us, has reached its full effect in our souls before we become aware. Once we become aware of them, we shouldn't dwell any further, but move back into prayer. If we begin to dwell on them, we begin to insert our own agendas and the ego attempts to attach its identity to them. St. John says, pay no attention to them, move on. In CP, move on merely means, return to the sacred prayer word and your intention of the will, i.e. being in the presence of God.


This is radical apophaticism, for sure, but one has to inquire whether that is the goal of Christian prayer, or whether relationship with God is more to the point. If we concede that it is the latter, and that God is perfectly capable of meeting where we are in our human consciousness with all its various activities, then we look for the evidence of the Spirit in any movements within that incline us toward love, peace, faith, etc., and we do not reject these when they arise during prayer because they are "thoughts, and God is not a thought" (as I've heard some CP teachers put it). Not all thoughts are distractions or strictly of the self; some could very be of-God as well. See what I mean

I think you're actuality saying the same thing Fr Keating teaches and my own understanding of CP.

Remember, Centering Prayer is not new. Its only new to those who have never heard of it before.

Fact is, Fr Keating, and Fr Pennington didn't call it Centering Prayer. They merely called it quiet prayer. The "Centering Prayer," term came out of a week-end retreat they ran for religious. From what I remember, the people attending the retreat pulled it from St. John of the Cross's "Living Flame of Love," and began using the term, "Centering Prayer."

I won't post it here, but if you look at St. John's commentary, take not how often he mentions the word "center," and the context he uses it in.

Anyway, I find the format for posting in this forum a little tedious. I should use "Word" first and then copy paste here, but I'm traditionally lazy. Sorry for spelling and gramatical errors.Wink


God Bless
Jim
 
Posts: 52 | Location: Massachusetts | Registered: 01 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by JimR-OCDS:
...
Well there is a lot in what she wrote but, essentially, its praying in the presence of the God who dwells within. In Teresa’s and St. John's teaching, this merely means being in His presence in a loving embrace. No words are necessary, just being in his presence is enough.

An analogy that is made is two lovers sitting together resting in each other's arms. No words are necessary to express the love they have feeling for each other. Just being with each other is enough.

So it is in mental prayer, or CP. Just resting in the loving embrace of God's presence is enough....


Thank you, Jim, for taking some time to share more explicitly how CP feels to you as contemplative prayer. I can read the theory, but I often get more out of hearing people's direct subjective experiences.

God's peace,
Shasha
 
Posts: 1091 | Registered: 05 April 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JimR-OCDS:
Phil,

One distinction I'd make is that CP is not contemplative prayer, as you mentioned somewhere, but a contemplative prayer [i]method. [/I]

I'm speaking of prayer in the context of the method used, i.e. Contemplative prayer verses discursice prayer.

As such, it disposes us to receive contemplative grace should God wish to share this with us; if not, it has its own good fruit in clarifying one's awareness and purifying one's faith intent.

I believe you're speaking of Contempation, not the method of prayer itself. Contemplation comes from God, not through our own actions...


Reading over some of the Evaluating CP thread, it does appear that there is a confounding of the method of prayer with the gift of contemplation. And the added category of "acquired contemplation" seems like a contradiction to me.

In my way of seeing it, you can't do contemplative prayer like you can't do rainfall.

You can stand outside, look up at the sky and cry out with or without words, eloquent or crude, focussed or not, alone or in a crowd, "Lord, COME...I'm dying over here." Rainfall is contemplation, a gift determined by the Holy Spirit as in Jesus telling us that the HS is like the wind; it comes and goes and nobody can predict it's stirrings.

And I'm with Phil that the increased peace and wholeness that one experiences just practicing the 'method' of crying out in whatever way bears fruit, but it's not necessarily contemplation, even though it's still a gift.
 
Posts: 1091 | Registered: 05 April 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think the distingsion between "contemplative prayer," and "contemplation," needs a little explanation.

Contemplative prayer is the method of prayer that we use, in order to open ourselves to contemplation. Contemplation is from God, it is His action done in our souls.

God draws us to "contemplation" by drawing us to the method of "contemplative prayer." There are various forms of contemplative prayer, Centering Prayer being one of them.

Jim
 
Posts: 52 | Location: Massachusetts | Registered: 01 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jim, it helps that you clarify how you're using terminology like "contemplative prayer." What you're sharing is pretty much what I meant earlier when I stated that CP is a contemplative prayer method. You seem to be saying pretty much the same thing below.

In my experience of studying our Tradition, the term, "contemplative prayer" has been used as a synonym for contemplation -- i.e., "contemplative prayer" = "prayer of contemplation." That's even how Contemplative Outreach uses it:
quote:
Centering Prayer is a method of silent prayer that prepares us to receive the gift of contemplative prayer, prayer in which we experience God's presence within us, closer than breathing, closer than thinking, closer than consciousness itself.

- http://www.centeringprayer.com/

As for contemplation, it's been my experience (self, spiritual directees, reading, etc.) that it can indeed come via a practice like CP, but also through many other forms of prayer that aren't necessarily contemplative methods -- e.g., the Rosary (as you mentioned), Lectio Divina, or even after a period of singing or doing spiritual reading, or via glossalalia. I've been drawn to contemplative rest without even doing any particular religious disciplines -- just sitting outside, or driving along with the radio off. Because contemplation is a gift, God can give it to whoever God wishes whenever God wishes, even people who aren't involved in a contemplative practice of some kind. In fact, I rather doubt that people who practice CP are more likely to experience contemplation than those who don't. I know a number of contemplatives (self included) who don't do CP at all, except, perhaps, briefly at the end of a Lectio Divina period. CP has its own good fruit whether one experiences contemplation or not, so I have no problem recommending it to people as it does help them to, minimally, become more inwardly silent and open to God's presence and guidance.
 
Posts: 3948 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 27 December 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Anyway, you may have heard of it, but the author uses the Myers-Briggs personality profiles to show why some of us are drawn to quiet pray, like CP and other towards dynamic prayer like the Charismatic’s.

At the time, I took the test that the book gives, it showed that my personality type would be drawn to the teachings of St. Teresa of Avila. So, I got the book, "The Way of Perfection," and began reading and couldn't make it through the first chapter. I put it away and never thought about it again until 10 years later, when the Lord drew me to the Discalced Carmelites, and my wife and myself joined an OCDS community. Suddenly, that same book fed me like I couldn't believe.

So, the bottom line is, Christ leads, we follow. If we try to jump into something we're not suppose to, we'll receive little or nothing from it.

Jim
 
Posts: 52 | Location: Massachusetts | Registered: 01 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Phil:
... In fact, I rather doubt that people who practice CP are more likely to experience contemplation than those who don't. I know a number of contemplatives (self included) who don't do CP at all, except, perhaps, briefly at the end of a Lectio Divina period. CP has its own good fruit whether one experiences contemplation or not, so I have no problem recommending it to people as it does help them to, minimally, become more inwardly silent and open to God's presence and guidance.


Thanks for clearing that up...again. For me this kind of repetition and clarification does help!

I suspect the Contemplative Outreach definition of experiencing the presence of God is more general, a bit "looser" perhaps than what the Carmelites are referring to. And how can you know if you've not experienced true contemplation? especially since there are so many other graces of deep peace and stillness, centeredness that are also given as gifts.

In true contemplation, I feel, one realizes deeply that one most certainly did not choose God, but He first chose you.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Shasha:

In true contemplation, I feel, one realizes deeply that one most certainly did not choose God, but He first chose you.


Wow, yes! I have known that, and for me that's the only real cure to the narcissistic streak that I wrote of on the "one voice" thread--it hushes the striving to hope that I'm special enough to earn attention and love. Thanks for that powerful sentence, Shasha.
 
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Ariel --

Smiler
 
Posts: 1091 | Registered: 05 April 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JimR-OCDS:
Anyway, you may have heard of it, but the author uses the Myers-Briggs personality profiles to show why some of us are drawn to quiet pray, like CP and other towards dynamic prayer like the Charismatic’s.
...


Jim, what book and author are you referring to here?
 
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Jim, your post recommending a book while omitting its title piqued my curiosity. A search on Google suggested various possibilities:

Prayer and Temperament - Chester Michael and Marie Norrisey

Soultypes - Sandra Krebs Hirsh

Who We Are Is How We Pray - Charles Keating

Personality Type and Religious Leadership - Roy Oswald and Otto Kroeger

Prayer and Spirituality - Ian Williams

Also this humor page:

http://www.bouldertherapist.co...ayermyersbriggs.html
 
Posts: 1013 | Location: Canada | Registered: 03 April 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Opps, sorry about that. I had copy pasted the title of the book, but through some editing errors in my post, it got cut.

Anyway the book I was refering to is;

Who We Are Is How We Pray: Matching Personality and Spirituality,
by Charles Keating. No relation to Thomas Keating.

Jim
 
Posts: 52 | Location: Massachusetts | Registered: 01 April 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Shasha
I enjoyed the meeting very much. I will have to look into things deeper since I live in 2 different states and one is without a Secular Carmelite group. And there is no daily Mass.
When i left it was still to be decided when we would have a weekly Mass. A priest from another community would be coming in weekly to give Mass. So if attending daily Mass is a requirement, i didn't see that on the webpage but i may have missed it, I would not be able to comply.

I became a member of the RC Church this past Easter. It was such a joy to attend the RICA classes. The teacher had such great love for God.
 
Posts: 400 | Registered: 01 April 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Mary Sue,

Welcome to the RC Church. Smiler

Daily Mass is not required in the Carmelite group I belong to. It is encouraged, but certainly not required. Depending on what providence you belong to, the guidelines may vary. In your group, once weekly may be just fine. The promised members in my group teach that because we are 'seculars' and not 'religious,' we fit in as much Mass attendence as we reasonably can. Nowadays, I attend Mass about 2-4 times per week.

(In fact, I was remarking to God tonight after Mass how it seems an incomprehensible blessing to be fed the body, soul and divinity of Jesus. Let's pray to never take the Eucharist casually. Let us take Christ with as much reverence as we can muster in our brokenness.)
 
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Hi Shasha

In going into things deeper with the
president of the local group it looks like
one is not suppose to miss more than 3 meetings
in a row. I would miss 7 so couldn't qualify.
 
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Hi Mary Sue. I guess living in two different states makes it impossible to commit with those requirements. Maybe God has a different place for you. The good news is that God provides according to our pure desires to be close to Him, not according to our circumstances. Peace be with you. Smiler
 
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