I was invited by my spiritual director to attend the Church's Secular Carmelite meeting a few months ago.

I’ve read a little of both STA and SJC, and when I do, I feel like I’m “at home.” Actually, I think it was w.c. who first suggested a few years ago that I’d enjoy their work. I was drawn to the prospect of joining others interested in contemplative prayer/ living. When I discovered that their "rule" to be a member is daily Mass, I thought, "Why not? I'll try it." While I've not been able to go every day, I attend most days and have noticed a remarkable difference in my life. I feel more stable, calm, peaceful, and…strangely, protected.

Then a few weeks ago, my spiritual director laid hands on me at a Parish prayer meeting and said some things in tongues. The next morning I awoke with a delightful anticipation and knowing deeply that I would receive Jesus in the Eucharist. This knowledge seemed to have moved from my head to my heart. Wow, I realized what so many already know: what could be better than receiving Jesus directly in the Eucharist? She, my spiritual director, also suggested that I approach the Eucharist with a heart/attitude of giving everything of myself to Him. This felt so natural and right too! In fact, I read the following from St. Sixtus yesterday:

“Do not receive Christ in the Blessed Sacrament so that you may use him as you judge best, but give yourself to him and let him receive you in this Sacrament, so that he himself, God your saviour, may do to you and through you whatever he wills.”

At the same time, I've taken to the Carmelite’s other requirement quite naturally, which is to read the morning and evening prayers of the Church. Well, I was the kind of person who felt quite stubborn about the fact that I pray all the time and don’t need a structured time to do that, thank you. Come to find out: I am capable of new learning—even at age 46! I discovered I like the structure. It benefits me. Thank you Carmelites!

Like so many people at SP, I feel deeply drawn to prayer, intercessory prayer in particular. I always thought my call to pray for others was limited to my immediate circle of friends, family, patients, church leaders, etc. So I was quite surprised and delighted that this more general kind of prayer felt so 'right' and 'good'! Thank you, Father!

The other draw to the Carmelites is that I'd be in a structured setting to read and learn about the Carmelite Saints. On my own, I talk and wish that I'd do that reading, but the external structure of a group meeting and being accountable to showing up each month is more likely to get the job done.

The part the kinda scars me about the group is the deepening levels of commitment...making “permanent promises” sounds both very beautiful but I don't know if I'm either called or capable of such a thing. They explain that there are years spent in formation to discern both 1) if they want you, and 2) if you want to commit to them. I don’t know. I looked up “evangelical perfection,” the way Carmelites are called to live, and I started getting “cold feet.” Also, the time it takes to be part of this group has meant I have to prune other things out of my life, and that has been somewhat painful.

Any others out there drawn to the Secular Carmelites? What’s been your experience?

Shasha, I'm not a secular Carmelite, but I also resonate with their spirituality. From what you've shared, it sounds like their rule is a lot more strict and demanding than other secular branches of religious orders. As I work closely now with Dominicans (whose spirituality I also love), I'm familiar with their associates program and it's a lot more relaxed than what you share.

What are the "permanent promises" you alluded to?

Shasha, I chuckled as I read your last paragraph. Up until then, you've got yourself convinced. All those doubts are normal. Its one step at a time, and if I remember right, doesn't it take 5-7 years to discern? I'd have to go back and look it up. I still have all my books.

The commitment is like any other vocation. Marriage is a commitment and requires certain actions to make it survive and grow. If this is your calling it'll all proceed as it should. I love that you have the luxury of local meetings. I didn't have that and that's why I bailed. Now I wish I hadn't.

I didn't have any trouble with the time commitment, priority just floats to the top,the rest can wait. It really brings order to one's life also.

Phil, after 3 years i made a temporary promise,
the priest blesses a scapular, puts it on the aspirant and presents them with the Rule of Life.

The final promise is to live that Rule. Not quite a vow but a promise.

Sasha, have you read any St. John of the Cross yet, now there is some deeeeep water. I say go for it!!!

Phil--

The promise is to live a life of chastity, poverty, and obedience. I don't know if the Rule is more than expanding on what that means. I've not got far enough into it yet.

But I must say I was very moved when a couple of women made their Carmelite promises following Mass a few weeks ago during Our Lady of Mt. Carmel. As one of the women was reading her permanent promises out loud, a Holy fire came upon me and I struggled to not fall apart with weeping. It was so deeply moving, like one feels sometimes listening to wedding vows, except it was not merely an emotional, sentimental thing. It felt like some unsustainable longing to be Home...

Carmel43,

Thanks for chiming in. Interesting coincidence that we have this in common, among other things.

I read your note as an encouragment. I've not read much of St. John, but each time I do make a start, I'm daunted by his depth and holiness.

I'm sorry to hear that you were so far from your community that you quit. Yes, I'm very fortunate to live near my Church where the community meets.

Is it too late for you to rejoin some time in the future? Would you consider moving to be near a Carmelite community? I am beginning to see the supportive power and Grace associated with being part of an official "Order," but the commitment to follow Christ is a deep and inner matter of the heart.

Shasha, I recently moved, about 8 months ago, have moved about 13 times since I married and can't even think about moving again. I love it here and there are no plans to move unless something comes up and we have to go. I'm sure I could take up the mantle again as an isolated member, have to pray on that. Not sure where the nearest community is. There is a Carmelite monastery in Traverse City but I don't believe there is a secular order.

I think having that physical support is a real benefit.

In the materials I was given there was an extensive reading list. Such good stuff, can't get enough. Of course St. John of the Cross is paramount. I also have a book titled a Commentary on the Rule of Life, do you not have that? Also another called Welcome to Carmel, a handbook for aspirants. both are excellent, I got all excited all over again just paging through them.

That longing you feel, Jesus just drawing you in, you won't be able to resist.

Carmel43,

Thanks so much for you encouragement! Sounds like you're done moving around, and I've heard Petosky is a beautiful location. I'm glad to know that you "got all excited all over again" looking at your materials.

I do have Welcome to Carmel, and I don't know what else...This is one of my problems that I endeavor to solve: I am too busy! I think the benefit/ fruit of my increased commitment to the Lord last several months is that I'm realizing I don't spend *enough* time with Him.

I decided that I want to organize me life, as much as I can control it, so that I am never in the situation in which I'm "running around," running late, eating in my car, eating fast, rushing people off the phone, hurrying to run errands, scramblling to find over-due library books...that sort of thing!

And I'm seeing it more than ever in people around me. I watch them and myself and think: Are we insane? Do we really want to live life in a mad dash?! One of the culprits in my case seems to be an unconscious sense of omnipotence (i.e. "I can do all that, sure..."). And there does seem to be a correlation between people's discontent and how out-of-control their lives feel to them, as I watch and hear about the lives of others.

I just can't live that way anymore! And I don't want to model that for my children. As much as I do have control over my life, I want to be proactive and deliberate about my choices, how I spend my time and energy. I think this is what Carmel has done for me...

God's peace to you, dear friend,
Shasha

quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:


I just can't live that way anymore! And I don't want to model that for my children. As much as I do have control over my life, I want to be proactive and deliberate about my choices, how I spend my time and energy. I think this is what Carmel has done for me.

Shasha---I fully support being "deliberate in (your) choices", in whatever way encourages you to do that.

As for me, about 9 years ago I badly broke my ankle from tripping while carrying a heavy sculpture up my steps. I had just about finished it to send to a gallery exhibition. I'd driven myself through a nearly sleepless week to finish another piece before the gallery's opening night, though I'd already fulfilled my commitment to the exhibition with other pieces. I'd just won several prestigious awards that fall and I thought I should drive myself hard to maintain that success and please the gallery owner and his very wealthy clients.

Instead of being on my way to Fed-Ex, I found myself in the hospital with a life changing injury.

Just finally being able to walk by myself after a 3+ months felt like I was flying--it was still painful after the major ligament damage even though the bone healed well, but just plain walking was an amazing experience.

I know I'm straying from the thread here...but the lasting lesson for me is that---

I let no-one push me.

There is enough time to do what I need to do without feeling rushed. Things get done "in their own sweet time".

When I need sleep, I sleep. As sleep-deprived as I was right before I broke my ankle, I would have been a hazard on the road if I'd been driving to Fed-Ex with a shipment.


If learning about the Secular Carmelites helps you feel less rushed, I think that's a great thing. It sure beats breaking an ankle!

I can imagine Jesus doing His work deliberately, proactively giving His works space to happen "in their own sweet time", but I can't imagine Him rushed and frazzled.

Shasha and Ariel, during the time I became involved with the Secular Carmelites, I too was involved with many activities that looked "good". I was volunteering, starting a crisis pregnancy center, all kinds of "stuff". Then I got chronic fatigue syndrome. It stopped me in my tracks, and I realized there were lots of good things to do, but they're weren't the right good things for me to do.

That was key, they were right for others but not me. The contemplative life style is my path. I am treading very lightly right now and trying to find my place here. I spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament and I'm trying to be patient that things will become clear.

Our homes I believe should be a haven. As mothers how can we bring order, calmness, safety for our children, in their school activities and what we all lend our time to? How do we use our talents? How do we build up the kingdom of God with our talents? I think order follows when we are honest with those questions.

Carmel43 and Ariel,

Thanks for your sharing. I see how clearly you can both relate to my (deeper) discovery of what's often an overlooked issue. Yes, it does seem that the passive stance of "being," prayer, quiet, receptivity to God, is less apparently important than "doing." I feel my Carmelite involvement has been showing me the need for greater balance, as it is deepening my connection with the Lord.

As I've shared before, I felt a halting in my tracks a few years ago when the Lord spoke to me following a seminar on healing prayer. He said, "If you're going to pray in My Name, you need to know Who I am."

I feel the Carmelite path is an avenue for me to know Jesus more fully--while I continue to pray in His Name.

I think "time stress" is one of the great evils of this age. By this I mean the feeling that one is up against time, or running out of time, or pressured by time. I just hate this sort of thing, and hear you all saying the same. We can adjust our attitudes to do away with much of this, but there is still such a thing as a stressful lifestyle, which makes it difficult to manage attitudinally. So the more we can slow down, relax, do what we're doing, take necessary breaks, etc., the better. It's a good goal to strive for, and I can't imagine ever going back to the old pressure days of my youth, even for financial reasons.

Shasha,
I assume that you're writing about the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites,OCDS?

My wife and myelf are professed OCDS members, but due to our community disbanding five years ago, we are now inacctive.

However, we still follow the Rule of Life, or Constitutions as they call them now.

It's nice seeing your interest in OCDS.

God Bless
Jim

Hi Jim, Yes I'm talking about OCDS. How lovely that you and your wife have this common interest. What a gift to share such a beautiful way of life with a spouse.

Feel free to share about your experiences. I'm just beginning the readings on the Rule.

Peace to you,

Shasha

Shasha,
yes its a blessing that both my wife and myself were called to contemplation together.

We actaully started looking for a 3rd order Franciscan group, when we found the OCDS community. We immediately were drawn to it and ended up joining. However, that group was small and met at a OCD monastery in Peterborough NH. The Friars had to put the place up for sale, so we transferred to another community in Manchester, where we made our definitive promises and then our vows. I eventually became the group president, but by then, all the members had aged out and left. We didn't have enough new members to continue, so we had to disban. It was a long commute for my wife and myself, so we ended up with an inacctive status. There use to be an "Isolated" status for OCDS members, but the order no longer allows "Isolated," members.

Anyway, my favorite reading is St. John of the Cross. The Living Flame of Love, is my favorite. Its actually where the term, "Centering Prayer," was coined from.

http://www.ocd.or.at/ics/john/fl_3.html

Anyway, its nice to meet you.

In Christ
Jim

Hi Jim,

Thanks for that link. Very rich...

Reminds me of an experience I had just a few days ago. I was driving to my office and worshipping to music in my car, as I usually do. Suddenly, a Holy fire just fell on me and I became like a 'living flame of love' as a matter of fact. This happens too when I pray with others sometimes. It's as if my body is a dry match stick and I go 'poof' with God's love.

I thought, "Father, if you don't lift this fire off of me, I don't see how I could do any work." Of course, He did lift off enough as I pulled into the parking lot so that I could function. But in that intense Love, I don't know that I could go on functioning normally...but I guess the point is not to remain in that state right now as much as it is to take others with me...

God's peace,

Shasha

P.S. About Centering Prayer, I just saw a distrubing clip by Fr. Keating from the movie, "One." There's a discussion on his notions about enlightenment somewhere on SP, but I can't recall where. Maybe I'll search for that thread and post his clip if I find it.

Shasha,
I searched the info on the movie "One," Fr Keating isn't listed, but I'd be interested in hearing what he said.

I've been doing Centering Prayer, as Fr Keating teaches it, for over 30 years. In Catholic Web forums, there is more misinformation about CP than truth. Catholic Answers has discusions about CP banned.

Anyway, myself and my wife had been doing CP before we joined Carmel. Carmel merely confirmed for us, that the Lord had given us the gift of contemplation through CP. In fact, most of what Fr Keating and Fr Pennington taught about CP, comes from St. John of the Cross, but also the desert mystics like Abba Isaac.

The Living Flame of Love, is the essense of contemplation. As St John says, God is our center.

It is within the center of our being that we go to rest in God's presence. St. Teresa of Avila says, this is where God communicates to us best.

God's language is silence, and where God gives us his transforming grace. All we need do is be open to Him.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Yes, I saw your posts at the end of the Evaluating CP thread. I'm interested in the comparisons of various mystical / supernatural states as I've been exposed to different ones. I by no means have the final answer on contemplation, but my experience is that contemplation is purely, 100% a gift. One cannot control it. God gives it as He wills. And there's only a certain point up to which one can prepare, either actively or passively, to receive that gift. IMO, CP sounds like meditation and other methods that change the brain waves and one's consciousness. This leads to a sense of unity, stillness, deep silence, the center of our spirit which we delight in experiencing is created by God. It's like seeing/ feeling His footprint.

The contemplative graces are more of an actual touching by God and change in our soul, as in my description above of the Holy fire falling on me unexpectedly. I realized my description may be ambiguous though. I don't mean 'fire' as like an actual temperature-like heat in my body (as in some k. rushes). It is a burning Love of God that He brings and He removes. One knows that one is in relationship with God, and one knows it's through Christ Jesus that this is possible. In enlightenment states, there is no such mystical knowledge that the risen Christ has literally made this blessing possible. In other words, you wouldn't confuse it with anythign else.

What's disturbing about Fr. Keating's commentary is that he claims the spiritual journey ends with our becoming one with the "Other," and then realizing that there is no Other. He's describing unity consciousness / enlightenment, which is the Eastern mystical experience. We've talked about 5000 hours on this topic here at SP, but again, my take is that it's a completely different experience than the Christian mystics describe as the contemplative graces, spiritual marriage / transforming union.

Here's that 2-minute clip, which I should probably move to the Evaluating CP thread. Go down to fourth row, second column.

http://www.easterspirit.com/CenteringPrayerVideos.htm


Anyway, yes I see your point that CP has gotton a "bad rap" in terms of being misrepresented. But do you see my point that Fr. Keating seems to be preaching enlightenment, which is a huge deviation from Christian mysticism?

I found this link, too:

http://www.onethestore.com/sto...E%2bzubRULJcG3EX9JSR

$9.95 sounds like a lot for an audio clip.

Sharsha,
you are correct that contemplation is a gift from God.

However, we need to be open to contemplation and contemplative prayer(which is really all "Centering Prayer" is), is a way to place ourselves in God's presence and allow Him to feed us as He wills.

Those who attempt to make more of "Centering Prayer" than this, have limited understanding of it. There is no hypnotic state that one goes into, or any out of
body experiences, as I've seen some critics describe CP as.

Its merely turning toward God, who dwells within at the center of our being.

The thing is, the method of prayer, doesn't come from Fr Keating or Basil Pennington, but rather from the desert fathers of the East. http://www.kyrie.com/cp/a_gift_from_the_desert.htm

CP was well apart of my spiritual life when I first joined Carmel and when I began reading St. Teresa's "Way of Perfection," and "The Interior Castle," I immediately could relate to what she was saying. Later, when I began reading St. John of the Cross, the gifts recived from God through Centering Prayer where all too obvious.


I have not watched the videos that you linked yet, but I'll will. One thing to keep in mind is, when Fr. Keating is giving talks, he's often speaking to non-Christians as well as non-Catholics. So, he uses language that they can relate to.In all, whatever enlightenment we receive, it is from God and not from our own techniques or intellect.

BTW, which video are you refering to on Fr. Keating. The link shows about a dozen.

I prefer to read Fr Keating's stuff and being a frequent visitor to St. Joseph's Abbey in Spencer, MA, where Fr Keating was the Abbot years back, I have access to his material and the monks who know him well.

By favorite book by Fr Keating is;

"Foundations for Centering Prayer and the Christian Contemplative Life
A combined volume of Open Mind, Open Heart, The Mystery of Christ, and Invitation to Love."

You get three of what I see as his best works, in one volume.

Anyway, if you are going into an OCDS community, you'll have so much reading on St. Teresa and St.John of the Cross and you'll have little time for reading and reflecting on anyone elses work.

In all, place it into God's hands and allow him to bring you to where He wants you.


God Bless
Jim

quote:

What's disturbing about Fr. Keating's commentary is that he claims the spiritual journey ends with our becoming one with the "Other," and then realizing that there is no Other. He's describing unity consciousness / enlightenment, which is the Eastern mystical experience. We've talked about 5000 hours on this topic here at SP, but again, my take is that it's a completely different experience than the Christian mystics describe as the contemplative graces, spiritual marriage / transforming union.

Here's that 2-minute clip, which I should probably move to the Evaluating CP thread. Go down to fourth row, second column.

http://www.easterspirit.com/CenteringPrayerVideos.htm

Shasha, I just looked at that clip and it's message is similar to the one he made in a journal put out by Richard Rohr sometime back. You might remember that Johnboy and I went round and round the mulberry bush about that, and I think one could do the same here as well. On the one hand, he's clearly affirming God as Other, and so in saying, later, that there is no "Other" is probably a reference to union. It's poorly stated, however, in that it gives the wrong impression, and can easily be taken as a reference to our ontological situation rather than a relational experience.

I had this conversation recently with a prominent teacher on spirituality in the Wichita area, who has been deeply influenced by Wilber (as has Keating). She was stating that we are already in union with God so there was really nothing to do but accept that, drop all sense of being separate, and rest in the union that already exists. As you noted, we've gone over all that before, especially on the centering prayer thread. But, briefly, and by way or summary, we can indeed affirm the existence of such an ontological union in that the soul does not exist except that God is giving it existence moment-by-moment, so there must be a "place" deep within where existence is being received from God, and this constitutes that union. But this is not to say that in that depth of being we are God, nor, less does it describe the kind of union John, Teresa and other Christian mystics are referring to. They are giving testimony to a relational union which can even exist in people who are not contemplatives; God and Ego can be bound in a relationship of love that grows and deepens, transforming the unconscious aspects of our being in the process. Perhaps, eventually (like John of the Cross), one awakens to God's presence in that deepest depth of our being, where God is giving us existence, and with this comes the realization that this One is also the Beloved. We can abide with God in silence at that level, but there is no need for that to be one's exclusive manner of "being-with-God" as the more cognitive and conversant levels of our being belong to Him as well and He meets us where we are. This is one of the most amazing things about the Inarnation.

So, amen to our distinctions between contemplation and prayer forms that move in the direction of enlightenment. CP seems to be a method that can go either way, depending on whether contemplative graces are given.

quote:

Originally posted by JimR-OCDS:
BTW, which video are you refering to on Fr. Keating. The link shows about a dozen.
...

As I noted above, it's the fourth row down, second column.

I believe he's interviewed in both "One, The Movie" and another similar flick "With One Voice," which is what Christine mentions in the Books and Movies thread.

quote:

Originally posted by JimR-OCDS:
...CP was well apart of my spiritual life when I first joined Carmel and when I began reading St. Teresa's "Way of Perfection," and "The Interior Castle," I immediately could relate to what she was saying. Later, when I began reading St. John of the Cross, the gifts recived from God through Centering Prayer where all too obvious.

...

If you're up for it, can you say more what you mean here. What was it about CP that you feel prepared you or led to the gifts described by SJC or found in STA?

God bless you too,
Shasha

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
...She was stating that we are already in union with God so there was really nothing to do but accept that, drop all sense of being separate, and rest in the union that already exists....

by way or summary, we can indeed affirm the existence of such an ontological union in that the soul does not exist except that God is giving it existence moment-by-moment, so there must be a "place" deep within where existence is being received from God, and this constitutes that union. But this is not to say that in that depth of being we are God, ...

So, amen to our distinctions between contemplation and prayer forms that move in the direction of enlightenment. CP seems to be a method that can go either way, depending on whether contemplative graces are given.

Yes, that first point I've heard lots of times and it's quite annoying. None of those enlightenment teachers can say they are taught by that consciousness about how to live as creatures in the world. They all have about the same creaturely problems as everyone else.

Second point above is very sound and reasonable, but many do conclude that we are God as a result of this shift in consciousness and this closes the door to further growing in Christ, I fear.

Third point above: yes amen to this important distinction as the confounding of these two can lead people away from the process of sanctification.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
... We can abide with God in silence at that level, but there is no need for that to be one's exclusive manner of "being-with-God" as the more cognitive and conversant levels of our being belong to Him as well and He meets us where we are. ...

Yeah, right. Even this discussion is God moving to meet us in greater wisdom and clarity. He's not only found in silence and solitude but actively teaching, loving, feeding, correcting, etc. I thank Him for that!!

quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:

quote:

Originally posted by JimR-OCDS:
...CP was well apart of my spiritual life when I first joined Carmel and when I began reading St. Teresa's "Way of Perfection," and "The Interior Castle," I immediately could relate to what she was saying. Later, when I began reading St. John of the Cross, the gifts recived from God through Centering Prayer where all too obvious.

...

If you're up for it, can you say more what you mean here. What was it about CP that you feel prepared you or led to the gifts described by SJC or found in STA?

God bless you too,
Shasha

Well there is a lot in what she wrote but, essentially, its praying in the presence of the God who dwells within. In Teresa’s and St. John's teaching, this merely means being in His presence in a loving embrace. No words are necessary, just being in his presence is enough.

An analogy that is made is two lovers sitting together resting in each other's arms. No words are necessary to express the love they have feeling for each other. Just being with each other is enough.

So it is in mental prayer, or CP. Just resting in the loving embrace of God's presence is enough.

In Centering Prayer, we use a sacred prayer word, which we repeat to ourselves. Now this prayer word isn't the intention of our focus, but rather, being in the presence of God is our focus. The prayer word is merely used when we are distracted by thoughts that come into our mind, to return to our focus of intention which is God. The prayer world is nothing more than being like a compass needle, returning us to God.

St. Teresa says that when we are distracted, to just say a sacred word and whisper it so softly, as if blowing on a candle flame. Then, when we are back to our state of prayer, the prayer word drifts off and aren’t even said.

Same is true in CP.

The fact is, even when we say the Rosary, we are essentially doing the same as CP, if we are praying in a contemplative manor, and that is, with the consciousness of God's presence.

Our prayer is in the now, not in the future or past. God dwells in the now, within, here and now. Any thoughts about God are our own, not who he is. So, we go to God as God is, not according to the image we've created of him.

I earlier linked to St. John's "Living Flame of Love," because that is Centering Prayer.

Jim