Dear friends,

I had some correspondance with Phil about recurrent issues I am struggling with.
It seems as if I am always 'coming a day after the fair' as the English saying goes...
Phil adviced me to try psychotherapy for about 6 months and see what happens...

I was going to this advanced craniosacral therapist since about 2 months but although I found it sound, it was too far from home and quite expensive. Then through a friend, I found another shiatsu and CS therapist in the place where I live, so I stopped going to the first one.

Now I hear that this second therapist's practice is full and that he cannot take another client! Is this a signal?
I have as some of you know always been struggling with this whole thing of regular versus alternative therapy.

I have tried and read about different kinds of body work, which also seem to work at the emotional, mental and even spiritual level.
Another approach is of course psychotherapy with a good psychologist.

I have had 3 psychiatrists before but this was all about medication and little more. And I am certain I don't need a psychiatrist!
One priest/psychologist I have seen seemed to strictly make a separation between psychology and spirituality and I didn't trust this at the time. Moreover I tended to rationalize/analyze too much and I had this conviction (resistance?) that through talking alone things wouldn't get better.

Now, after practicing yoga in the past, I have started it again since about 1 month and strangely enough since about one week I felt more relaxed and had less pain in my chest until today, first day at work....

But then again there is this ever going on duality in my mind. I have read father T. Ryan http://www.amazon.com/Prayer-H...istian/dp/080914056X and found it a good book, but then I read something like
http://praisemoves.com/christianalternative.htm
and I am troubled again.

FOR GOD'S SAKE, WHY THESE DOUBTS AND FEAR?

Some reply?

Fred

Scrupulosity?

Fr. Ryan is a good guy and his book is very good as well. Note that the Christian site on yoga you referenced is proposing an alternative call "praise moves," that seem to be similar stretches only done with a Christian intent. That's what Fr. Ryan advises as well. Makes sense to me.

I've read Fr. Ryan's book. Nothing he says is particularly original, although I found the book pleasant enough reading.

It's quite possible that the yoga postures pre-date what we today call "Hinduism". A seal from the Indus Valley civilization at Mohenjo-daro c. 2000 B.C. depicts what may be a yoga posture. If it is, the yoga postures were known in India a long time before Sanskritized "Hinduism" came into existence.

Dear Phil, Derek,

Thanks for responding.

Yes, scrupulosity/fear have a great impact on me.
Interesting information also from you Derek.

Yesterday evening, I have been reading again in an old book by father Déchanet 'La voie du silence'. He also wrote 'Christian Yoga' and he goes still further than father Ryan tmho.
It has stilled my scrupulous mind.

I would like to hear more about possible need of psychotherapy in my case versus body work.
Can craniosacral therapy mean something more for me apart from my yoga practice?
If not, I am going to a psologist for some time. This alcohol stuff and the tendency to go to restaurants (for some 'warmth') these days is another matter and I feel that the devil is playing tricks with me on all this.

Happy new year to you all.

PS Did you hear or read about the tower of Babel they built in Dubai?
What is going on, fellows?

Fred

I would like to hear more about possible need of psychotherapy in my case versus body work.

Fred, go for the psychotherapy.

quote:

Originally posted by Fred:
...I would like to hear more about possible need of psychotherapy in my case versus body work....

Why? Phil has already advised you to try psychotherapy and to commit to it for six months. Furthermore, Phil, as well as many others, have given you clear and reasonable rationale for this kindn of treatment. Clare and w.c. and Derek and I as well as others have given you the same advice across at least 3 to 4 different threads that you've started since 2007.

I hope I'm not coming across too harsh here, but maybe your comment above that you have some resistance to psychotherapy is right on! However, this is not the place to analyze your unconscious motives, nor do you seem very receptive to our feedback. If you read back over those threads, there's a lot of thoughtful and caring responses to your concerns that may still apply to you. Also, notice your "yes, but..." responses to many of those suggestions.

Given what you've shared about the neglect, loss, deprivation, possible abuse and trauma, long history with somatic problems, not taking responsibility for your actions, self-sabatoging, etc., you would do well to submit to a psychological evaluation. Somatic problems may be the expression, not the cause, of your problems. Only integration of the meaning of your emotions and conflicts may bring about relief of conversion symptoms. And you can't get meaning without talking as much as bodily symptoms may be easier to tolerate.

Also, in the meantime, perhaps SP members would be well served to learn about a defense mechanism known as "Help Rejecting Complaining," as it may be cropping up here. I'll look for a good definition and post on SP Lounge.

God's peace,
Shasha

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shasha,

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
... Note that the Christian site on yoga you referenced is proposing an alternative call "praise moves," that seem to be similar stretches only done with a Christian intent. That's what Fr. Ryan advises as well. Makes sense to me.

Yes, I've looked at Praise Moves and I like her rationale. Excellent way to meet a need for those who don't want to take any risks with yoga.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek:

It's quite possible that the yoga postures pre-date what we today call "Hinduism". A seal from the Indus Valley civilization at Mohenjo-daro c. 2000 B.C. depicts what may be a yoga posture. If it is, the yoga postures were known in India a long time before Sanskritized "Hinduism" came into existence.

I find that interesting too. I always connected yoga to Hindusim.

Fred, if it makes you feel better, just call it "stretching".

I don't know anything about Fr. Ryan, but I have a different Christian yoga book .. don't recall the author right now.

Katy

quote:

Originally posted by Fred:
Yes, scrupulosity/fear have a great impact on me.

Yesterday evening, I have been reading again in an old book by father Déchanet 'La voie du silence'. He also wrote 'Christian Yoga' and he goes still further than father Ryan tmho.
It has stilled my scrupulous mind.

I would like to hear more about possible need of psychotherapy in my case versus body work.
Can craniosacral therapy mean something more for me apart from my yoga practice?
If not, I am going to a psologist for some time. This alcohol stuff and the tendency to go to restaurants (for some 'warmth') these days is another matter and I feel that the devil is playing tricks with me on all this.

Fred

Fred, I have the book 'Christian Yoga', by Father Déchanet also, which has helped my scrupulous mind, speaking of which is a form of Obsessive Compulisive disorder. I would suggest you see a psychotherapist, preferably one who takes into consideration the physical too, and knows something about body work... a holistic oriented therapist. I don't know if many of them exist or not.

Katy

Fred, another thought..

Reading so much, and thinking so much, and trying to figure everything out.. that is confusion.. and confusion is of the "devil".

A lot of it doesn't matter that much anyway, in my opinion.. Love is the main thing...

And work on mind renewal.. and your thinking... or maybe I should say, work on not thinking. :-)

Katy

I have read all of your posts.

I feel, Shasha, you are coming across rather harshly.
Indeed, I have written several times about my condition, but I didn't get an unanimous (which is after all impossible) advice to go for psychotherapy. Maybe after all, I don't know what it includes.
For example: is something like NLP sort of psychotherapy?
I have also been said before by a psychiatrist that I rationalize too much and I didn't find a good psychotherapist (psychologist?).
Moreover as I say again and again I read about different alternative therapies working at the emotional and mental level.

Can't get meaning without talking?
I feel that Katy is right about the need for a holistic approach.
Now I found 2 other therapists: one who is more bodily orientated ( http://www.helende-handen.be/ =) ayurveda ...) and one who is broader orientated ( http://www.bodymindworks.be/). I wish to alternate now the two.

Fred

http://www.renaissanceyoga.ca/...c_Psychotherapy.html

???

Fred,

I’m sorry that my response was harsh. The last thing I want is to hurt a hurting person. I appreciate the feedback you give me--gentleness is an area in need of development in my own personality. Come Holy Spirit!

About psychotherapies, there are hundreds of them and all make wonderful claims for healing. But do they work? It’s easy to find testimonies of healing here and there, but very few are scientifically studied that show long-term efficacy.

As I’ve suggested before, psychodynamic psychotherapy is the only kind that recognizes the importance of working with unconscious *resistance ,* which is central to complex, long-term problems (including somatic disorders which may be involved in your issues; an evaluation would be needed to be sure).

Here’s a summary of a meta-analysis--a combining of multiple, scientifically controlled studies—of long-term psychodynamic psychotherapy as reported in:

Leichsenring, F. & Rabung, S. (2008). Effectiveness of Long-term Psychodynamic Psychotherapy: A Meta-analysis. JAMA, 300(13), 1551-1565.

http://psychcentral.com/news/2...-disorders/3040.html

Here’s a good one in press by Jonathan Shedler, American Psychologist, 2009. This gives a great summary of the distinctive features of psychodynamic therapy as well as an understanding of why/how this form of treatment is effective for more complex problems, such as you have described.

http://internationalpsychoanal...1/Shedlerarticle.pdf


Shalom and good luck!
Shasha

Shasha, your second link didn't work for me. Here's one that does:

http://internationalpsychoanal...1/Shedlerarticle.pdf

That's a good paper.

It gives a list of "seven features [that] reliably distinguished psychodynamic therapy from other therapies, as determined by empirical examination of actual session recordings and transcripts."

Then it goes on to look at meta-studies (studies of collections of outcome studies). Each one is given a numerical ranking called "effect size." The "effect size" measures the degree of improvement compared with a control group. +1 indicates 1 standard deviation psychologically healthier with therapy than without.

The author concludes that what's important in therapy is that the client "gains awareness of previously implicit feelings and meanings."

Thanks, Derek. You're fast!
I changed the problem link #2 it on my post...I think.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shasha:
I’m sorry that my response was harsh. The last thing I want is to hurt a hurting person. I appreciate the feedback you give me--gentleness is an area in need of development in my own personality. Come Holy Spirit!

Hi Shasha,

I may be way off base here, but when I read your post to Fred I was reminded of a therapist
who spoke the truth to me in love. There were times when I would leave his office feeling hurt or mad, feeling that he was too harsh... The Holy Spirit used this disruption (in my case) to bring about a godly sorrow that worked repentance in my heart. I started to appreciate the words of the Psalmist to let mercy and truth come together and kiss...Truth jars us and mercy is the balm. I wanted only mercy... I know that I am oversimplify here, and only Fred can decide what course of action to take...
I wish I could recall who wrote some time back, about our responses to Fred, as being God's little helpers. We all have our own stories of what helped us and I trust it is with good hearts that we offer our ideas to him. I ache and pray for him when I read about his struggles, for some of what he writes about are my struggles. One of my longings is to be a woman of strength and tenderness, which I sense from your posts, you know somethiing about

quote:

I wish I could recall who wrote some time back, about our responses to Fred, as being God's little helpers.

T'was moi, Gail

Dear friends,

Yes, Shasha, I understand you. Forgive me, sometimes I am far from being gentle too...I wasn't like that before but the pain makes me sometimes so angry. Sometimes I manage to be 'mindful' but many times I don't. I have found out that books can be very misleading/tricky... too. As my friend former Carmelite knew who left the monastery at 52 after having idealized someone like John of the Cross at 18!
And thanks for the papers. I'll try to read them anyhow.
I am sure all of you understand the complexity of going through such processes.
But what is helpful for one person is not helpful for someone else. I have read many critical things on psychotherapy too...
Some say the approach is not as important as the therapist and his presence.
I don't know whether there is such a resistance against psychotherapy as such, more against what I have experienced with psychiatrists (one so-called Christian even), who saw me for 15 minutes, prefered to talk about his own trip to Russia and his own life and then counted 65€ without listening for one second to me!
I have also had a so-called psychodynamic therpist long ago, who didn't stop smoking and didn't say 10 words for more than a year!
I have had a friend who had psychoanalysis for 15 years and said she felt fine but after all she could't stop with it...Oh Lord of all psychology! One 'shrink' suspected me of being psychotic after he heard about my deep (what I think was a mystical) experience in November 1994 and gave me antipsychotics, which I threw away after only some days because I was feeling so bad! Do I sound psychotic??? This whole psychiatry is tmho big business, a real stronghold here in Belgium (as is 'Justice'),
which doen't mean there is no sound psyhotherapy, but I didn't find it until now.
I don't know but I think that, although I have this tension pain, some of you tend to exaggerate my 'mental' (?) disorder. Some people say I have a rather good insight in my own mental and other habits and 'disorders'. But I am not sure about this. I read 2 books by Ingeborg Bosch before on PRI:
http://www.prionline.nl/default.asp?contentID=675 (all therapists are working in the Netherlands!)
Clare, you gave me a lot of information before (for which I am thankful), but wasn't it more about emotional body work (f.e. Primal Integration and RA Masters? Now your advice is psychotherapy?
'T was moi, Gail... sounds Flemish and Dutch together... or is it Gaelic?
't was mooi (Dutch): it was beautiful
't was moi (French): ç'était moi, it was me (indeed).
Nobody referred to this link about ayurvedic psychotherapy.
In the Vidya tradition (Ayurveda and Jyotish), there are seemingly no meaningful distinctions made between physiological, psychological, and spiritual imbalances. To make such distinctions is thought to exacerbate the self-conscious divisions between mind, body, and experience. To treat on these separate levels without integration is to provide helpful, though ultimately unstable support.
When they take a psychotherapy client, it is generally after a health consultation and protocol, and after the core life-story has been unfolded in a general way.
My first question for me would possibly be: "Given what I know of my imbalances, what do I suppose a balanced life would feel like to me?" Above all, the Vidya tradition is oral in nature. Meaning: it is not transmitted through books, but through presence.

Fred

Yes, that's bad when you experience unhelpful therapists.

In my simple way of seeing things, psychotherapy is just about getting in touch with what you feel. If physiological problems cause you physical pain, those have to be addressed first by a medical doctor. But after that, you just need someone who'll provide a safe place for you to do the work of feeling. That's why books and websites can't help you.

Fred, looking back through the archives, I see that on August 27, 2008, I recommended you take a week off work and go see Clare in Ireland. That's over a year ago.

Was my suggestion helpful to you?

Thanks, Derek, yes I considered going to Clare.
But then there were other things, maybe not that urgent but I didn't go. I admit I asked myself at the time: what can a week mean to me when some people have to go through a long process of therapy. I had a long correspondance with Clare, who was always very kind to me.
But I wished to find someone near home, as you will comprehend. I told about those two therapists before on this thread.
What is your opinion on ayurvedic medicine.
On the other hand I found some therapists who seem to work psycho-dynamically.
I'll see what happens and give myself 2 more months.
Do you know Clare personally?
Fred

Fred

When I say psychotherapy I mean psychodynamic, primal, anything which will connect your head to your body and your feelings....... exactly what i have said before. All is psychotherapy ( TRANSLATED HEALING OF THE SPIRIT)

Best

Clare

just saw your post with Derek....Fred am in Paris at the moment on the way to Genoa, so will catch up later.

Thanks Clare. Waw Paris! And Genoa!

A new colleague with a lot of experience in alternative circles just confirmed me to take it wholistic: psychologically (as you describe it now) ànd spiritually.

But is a craniosacral or ayurveda therapist for that matter doing psychotherapy when he connects head to body and feelings?

I always thought of psychotherapists as psychologists or at least people with psychological experience.

Fred

quote:

Originally posted by Fred:
....
I don't know but I think that, although I have this tension pain, some of you tend to exaggerate my 'mental' (?) disorder. Some people say I have a rather good insight in my own mental and other habits and 'disorders'.

Have you ever heard of "Somotaform Disorders"? Check out "Pain Disorder" and "Somatization Disorder" in particular. The gist is that emotional problems are expressed in the body; the pain is real but largely or wholly psychogenic, caused by emotinal distress/pain. Wiki has good definitions usually.

I don't feel right getting into a debate or discussioin with you about your diagnoses; again, you'd need an evaluation by a trained clinical psychologist or psychiatrist.

best wishes,
Shasha