Hi all--

This thread is sort of an offshoot of the "God dimension of experience" thread. The "problem of pain", the "problem of evil", theodicy, the suffering of the innocent---call it what we will, I can hardly imagine anyone who doesn't struggle with this issue at some point, or several times over. So I thought I'd start a new thread growing out of the "God dimension" discussion as an easily-found resource for all.

To anyone who may contribute here, I want to encourage them to do so---I can't tell how many times something that someone has written has helped me, though it may have seemed insignificant to the writer. So let this thread be a kind of soup kitchen or food bank for people struggling with suffering---come as you are to offer what you've learned or experienced, or come as you are and receive from others whatever may speak to you. I myself am mostly in need of the latter at this time, but I do have things to share of how God has worked with me on this big issue.

Well, I have to start my work day. I'll be writing later, but I thought I'd get this thread started this morning.

Regarding the heading for this thread--

Last night I was really moved by the way Donna (carmel43) phrased something on the "God dimension" thread. I hope it's okay to quote it here: "Is that experience God's will for me, the burden that was just for me to carry along with Him?" Over the past few days I've re-read Dietrich Bonhoeffer's "Christians and Others" poem from prison, which has the line, "Christians stand with God in His hour of grieving." I hope we can talk more, either here or on the God dimension thread, about what I've come to believe may be an almost shy desire of God's for our companionship in His on-going suffering.

And on the other hand, I'm often not at that point of being able to offer Him my consistent friendship in a loving way, and the closest I come to loving Him is having the guts to honestly face Him--to turn to Him-- when He baffles me...so then that can be a kind of "sharing", too, though it's not mature, it's not pious; yet it's where I am at that moment, and it has a sort of faith and trust imbedded in that bewildered facing Him.

Hi Ariel, that question really was something I've been contemplating.

The book that really had a profound effect on me was Man's Search for Meaning. Frankl said that a quote from Dostoevski (paraphrasing)often came to mind after Frankl became acquainted with those martyrs (in the concentration camp) who bore their suffering as a genuine achievement. Dostoevski ------- "There is only one thing that I dread: not to be worthy of my sufferings."

Frankl goes on---It is this spiritual freedom--which cannot be taken away--that makes life meaningful and purposeful.

Amazing book. Under such horrendous conditions he can say these things.

That Light of Christ, under that Illumination one can find meaning and purpose. Many years ago my pastor told me never to waste my suffering.

Its only natural I think to turn away or shrink from it, but there are beautiful examples like Frankl that show us the way. Another current example on beautiful suffering is Mother Teresa, she supposedly was in a Dark Night of the Soul most of her life. No one even knew. She suffered with that smile on her face. love and prayers, Donna

Thank you for that title, Donna. I'll get ahold of that book.

A book that left an impression on me when I was a young girl is Corrie Ten Boom's The Hiding Place, about her time in a WWII concentration camp. This past winter I bought a copy of the movie based on the book, and now that I've lived more, it was even more meaningful.

quote:

Originally posted by faustina:
Without cross-bearing, there can be no cosmic transfiguration. If we divorce Christ’s Transfiguration from His Crucifixion, then we distort the meaning of both alike. As Saint Paul insists, “They crucified the Lord of glory” . To be transfigured with Christ does not mean that we escape all suffering; it means that we are to find transfiguration in the suffering. The transfigured Christ offers not a way around but through.

There's a lot of good things to take in there in your post, Christine. Thank you.

There seem to be different forms of suffering that implicate God’s involvement in different ways. Some suffering is a messenger, pulling us to pay attention to something we’re neglecting or ignoring, prompting us to desire wisdom, discernment, guidance from God/others. That kind of suffering makes sense to me.

Some suffering is just God maturing us in ways that are beyond our mental/emotional grasp. It seems utterly pointless and tragic to lose your five-year-old to leukemia, for instance, or your newly-wed spouse to a freak car accident. One seems to require a kind of radical faith to get through the worst of this kind of suffering. Is that the point, I guess? To grow in dependence, humility, compassion…I’m OK with that most of the time, knowing that our lives are not limited to our walking on this planet.

But the cruelty of child abuse by the hands of parents or the clergy. What else can you conclude but that God is a sadist, allowing such horror to occur? Hard to see God in any kind of cooperative participation with this kind of pain. Yet, I know He is a loving God, so I just have to accept the mystery of not getting it…

quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:

But the cruelty of child abuse by the hands of parents or the clergy. What else can you conclude but that God is a sadist, allowing such horror to occur? Hard to see God in any kind of cooperative participation with this kind of pain. Yet, I know He is a loving God, so I just have to accept the mystery of not getting it…

Yes, Shasha, that's the sort of baffling suffering that threw me this summer, though not in the specific of child abuse. I have to admit that in the pain I've experienced myself, at some point I can see the good of it. Some stressing of my nature is life-giving and strengthening, just as bones will build themselves up in response to stress, and weaken if not stressed. But then, sometimes it looks like God lets innocent people be pushed way past the life-giving kind of stress, and to the deep trauma breaking point. It's hard for me to talk about it, and I want to be respectful of readers' sensitivities in not going into detail, but some absolutely horrific things happened this past June to people I knew or knew through friends. So, yes, I "just have to accept the mystery of not getting it". But it's hard. It's just plain hard... to accept that and still feel a warm friendliness and love to God.

But, yes, again, I "know He is a loving God" from deep-running experience. And I'd like to share some of the stories of how He has worked with me on this issue over the years. I keep shying away from talking about it, though, as perhaps it's still too raw for me.

Shasha, I don't get it either, inflicting suffering onto the innocent. I can only derive from it, that that is one way in which evil or sin manifests itself, from the selfishness of others. The weakest of us can't defend ourselves from such situations.

I don't believe God cooperates in this. He allowed his Son the most reprehensible death. His mother watched. Unbelievable suffering. Couldn't there have been another way to save us all from our sins? God could just have waved a wand and said it is so. But thats not how it worked out.

Just makes me want to ask more questions.

Donna,

God is passively 'cooperating' with evil and sin as He allows it to prevail. He's omnipotent, all-knowing. And yes, Jesus' death was horrible, but I don't think as bad as what happens to many sadistically abused children who are not killed but live and remain in torment. Probably the agony in the Garden was more akin to experiencing all of mankind's suffering.

So, yes, God could have transformed the human race in any way He wanted, but He choose to be born as one who was beaten and killed. That's very weird. But a story that would bind us to God's compassionate heart, I guess. We couldn't relate to a God whom we felt could not relate to us in our worst moments. I guess Christ's sacrificial suffering and death allows us to believe in/ relate to such a thing as redemptive suffering.

And Jesus modelled compassion by asking God's forgiveness of mankind's inhumanity against itself, which He knew was impossible for us to do on our own.

I've struggled with that lately as I've been treating a woman who was molested by a pastor. I found myself hating this man, but I couldn't feel good about my reaction, even though I could justify it, because I know Christ wants me to pray for him and ask for God's mercy. But I couldn't do that for several months, showing how far away I am from God in this regard, a fact of my brokenness that I simply accept.

Some understanding of suffering has come from a few personal revelations, which I can share later.

Ariel -- I want to respond to your last post, but gotta go for now.

Blessings to you all, dear ones.

quote:

Originally posted by Ariel Jaffe:
... It's hard for me to talk about it, and I want to be respectful of readers' sensitivities in not going into detail, but some absolutely horrific things happened this past June to people I knew or knew through friends. So, yes, I "just have to accept the mystery of not getting it". But it's hard. It's just plain hard... to accept that and still feel a warm friendliness and love to God.

But, yes, again, I "know He is a loving God" from deep-running experience. And I'd like to share some of the stories of how He has worked with me on this issue over the years. I keep shying away from talking about it, though, as perhaps it's still too raw for me.

Ariel, I see what you mean about not wanting to go into details about horrific pain. There is such a thing as "secondary trauma," being traumatized by just listening to someone else's story of a trauma experience. Did you know that?

But also there is a strong need to share about it, so it's not just rattling around in your head. I do see that people benefit from sharing about horrific pain. There is healing in the sharing, no doubt.

So in terms of this thread discussion, can we talk about this horrible thing without going into details that you think would be too terrible? Or maybe you've already answered your own question or are still "too raw."

I was going to share more about what God has shown me concerning some deep, personal suffering, but will have to resume when I've got more time.

In the meantime, feel free to say more about what God has shown you over the years (as you alluded to above). I'd love to hear about it.

God's peace to you!
Shasha

Shasha--

I hadn't heard of "secondary trauma" before. I looked at several articles about it, and if I weren't so sleepy I'd post a link to an article or two.

Thanks for the time you give to write here, Shasha. I will write more tomorrow, and I'd also like to hear what God has shown you when you have time...but no hurry. I have talked to friends in my area who knew what happened, and that did help to an noticeable extent.

-

quote:

So, yes, God could have transformed the human race in any way He wanted, but He choose to be born as one who was beaten and killed. That's very weird. But a story that would bind us to God's compassionate heart, I guess. We couldn't relate to a God whom we felt could not relate to us in our worst moments. I guess Christ's sacrificial suffering and death allows us to believe in/ relate to such a thing as redemptive suffering.

Good reflections, Shasha. And, of course, there's great mystery surrounding the crucifixion, as Christ could have surely redeemed the race without dying on the cross. I wrote a book on this topic once, and what I came to realize during the course of reading and reflecting on the crucifixion is that there are layers of significance, none the least being how completely Jesus came to stand with those who are persecuted unjustly. It's also a kind of "in-your-face" to Satan and the Roman Empire, which Paul alluded to in one place when he refers to the crucifixion as "Christ's victory march." There was also this connection with Jewish sacrificial rites -- Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Layers and layers of meaning! I go into this in the book, which I am happy to say is in print again, thanks to lulu.com.
- see http://www.lulu.com/product/pa...e-cross-why/11056179

That looks like a good book, Phil. I'm going to order it.

Here are a couple of articles about secondary trauma:
www.sciencedaily.com/releases/.../04/080421170211.htm



www.womanabuseprevention.com/h...aumatic_stress_.html

This isn’t so much related to suffering with God, but more about growing and learning through suffering. Also, by way of sharing this with you, I’m not suggesting in any way that what I’ve heard from God is necessarily applicable to anyone else’s life experiences.
-------------------------------

During some agonizing suffering I went though years ago, I cried out to God, “WHY?” …It wasn’t the first time I asked Him for some meaning to the shattered pieces and chaos all around me during this season. But this particular moment, He broke through and said,

“It’s like this:….”

and I knew that He was about to give me an analogy that would bring some answer my way. He showed me a kind of vision of my being a teacher in a classroom, much like I’ve been before as I sometimes teach Master’s level counseling students at a university. In this classroom, I was confronted with a student who was glaring at me in staunch opposition to what I was teaching. This student was completely closed down to what I was sharing. This ‘vision’ was in fact similar to what I’ve actually experienced many times. In a group of 30 or so, you’ll always get one or two students who are simply not open to having their world views challenged and will not submit to opening their minds and humbling themselves to new learning. What is a teacher to do? (I know what I’m tempted to do with particularly closed-minded students in my class: tell them to please leave and go register at the Business School, where you might be a better fit! Not to say anything derogatory about Business students; it just ain't counseling psychology).

Through this apt analogy, I knew in a flash what the Father was saying. My crying out in WHY of my suffering was very much like the angry, glaring student who was refusing to submit that her perspective of reality was immature. Through this revelation, I realized that, in a sense, this was how the Father saw me…a blistering, close-minded, and, in a sense, very arrogant student. The tables were turned and it sure didn’t feel good to admit I was lacking in humility before God.

So, I’m in God’s classroom. I’ve given my life to Christ Jesus, thankful for my New Life, prayed to be a living sacrifice for the sake of knowing Him and loving Him and feeding His sheep.

But I can’t stand the new learning, the ripping apart of my attachments and world view! My homework is to suffer new learning and I want to quit! I say with my mouth and heart: Christ, be my Teacher, but I refuse to accept that my view of reality is immature.

He holds all knowledge, He holds all the secrets of the WHY of suffering…we sit at His feet.

Shasha--I can relate to being a glaring, angry, student! Though, God really has been working with me about the issue of why do the innocent suffer since my first struggle with that (and Him) in 1993, and these days I'm not so much into thinking I need to argue with Him about it. (Job is my friend!) Right now it's mostly unwanted flashback-type visualizations, some sleep disturbance, and distrust issues that I'm dealing with--"secondary trauma" seems to fit the bill to a "t". But things are getting better, bit by bit...more later.

quote:

Originally posted by Shasha:

He holds all knowledge, He holds all the secrets of the WHY of suffering…we sit at His feet.

This is from near the end of the book of Job (ch. 42), after Job has said some irreverent, angry and anguished things to God:

"Then Job replied to the Lord:
I know that You can do all things;
no plan of Yours can be thwarted.
You asked,'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.

...My ears had heard of You, but now my eyes have seen You.
Therefore I depise myself and repent in dust and ashes."

"...things too wonderful for me to know."--I think of my still immature understanding of love, and then put hope in the thought that what God is trying to teach us about love is almost too wonderful, almost beyond imagining, and way beyond my assumptions.

That is a very moving piece of Scripture, Ariel. I think it’s my recalcitrant fear of suffering that keeps me from even reading the book of Job.

Thank you for posting it here as it really fills out the discussion.

There is another revelation that the Father gave me on suffering that I'd like to share. Since it's again a mystical kind of thing, it's usefulness to others is likely very limited.

I was listening to a patient in deep pain over the loss of her husband. There were all the classic signs of acute grief over losing a piece of your soul:

she saw her future as completely empty,

no hope of ever finding meaning again without him,

excruciating longing to be reunited with him,

stinging loneliness at every turn and reminder of their life together,

confused and angry at God for taking her husband away,

on and on with apparently no steep changes in sight.

She was weeping. I had heard this from her several times. What could I say this time…? Just in that moment as I was about to say something, don’t know what, I felt God literally hold me back and suddenly the Holy Spirit fell on me, a deeper reality opened up before me, like a wide, deep, x-dimension vista. In a flash, it was like I was standing at the brink of the Grand Canyon, though it didn’t have form and it wasn’t a vision, don’t know how to describe it, a kind of seeing/knowing. Anyway, on this brink of the Grand Canyon I saw ‘into’ this woman’s soul, a depth and beauty that was absolutely astounding, beyond anything we can fathom. He showed me that through her immense grief and suffering, He was carving out sheer beauty in her soul. I was stunned silent, reverent, humbled. There was nothing I could say or do to add to what the Father was doing through her suffering, and I sure wouldn’t want to interfere. What a blessing, I thought, what an honor to actually see into God’s workmanship! What a gift to sit with suffering people…to glimpse such beauty. Incomprehensible.

Wow, Shasha, thank you so much for sharing that. I was hoping at some point you'd have a story like that to tell, because, no kidding, something very similar happened to me this past winter when I was really wrestling with grief over someone who'd been killed in a car accident. I'll tell what God did for me later, since I've had a long, tiring day of tree planting and need to get some sleep. Ouch...thank you God for memory foam.

Wow, everyone, I haven't been here lately---- read everyones postings and it seems all the suffering is-- to borrow Shasha's words--- "carving out sheer beauty of her soul".

What is left after the carving out? I think more room for Our Lord of Mercy. Do we fill it with bitterness ourselves or allow God to fill it?
I'm still reading Faustina's Divine Mercy Diary and her comments on suffering are amazing. She welcomes her suffering and finds great joy in joining her sufferings to Our Lord's. love and prayers, Donna

We must be willing to accept the bitter truth that, in the end, we may have to become a burden to those who love us. But it is
necessary that we face this also. The full acceptance of our abjection and uselessness is the virtue that can make us and others
rich in the grace of God. It takes heroic charity and humility to let others sustain us when we are absolutely incapable of sustaining ourselves.
We cannot suffer well unless we see Christ everywhere--both in suffering and in the charity of those who come to the aid of our
affliction.- Thomas Merton, "No Man is an Island"

I have been taking care of my mother who went from her home into hospital for several weeks, now in a rehab nursing home... O, the suffering that she has undergone has broke my heart over & over... The beauty of the above quote (from a daily spiritual seed) along with the wisdom on this forum has enriched my spirit. I can't say that I or my mom is suffering well, but this devotion reminded me that she is Christ to me as I am Christ to her.

Gail--I will take that quote from Thomas Merton to heart, too. My dad, now 84, has lost much of his self-sufficiency, and I find it hard to talk to him about how he's really doing with that--he was such a strong, active, Rudolph Valentino-handsome man when he was younger, and a successful entrepreneur who was used to being the boss. And now he needs help with the daily tasks of living.

Have you heard of M. Scott Peck's book The Denial of the Soul ? I'll look for a review of it.

Remembering John Bunce

Below these bluffs, branch water
like a wind in leaves
ruffles the hollow. The rush and spill
sings through bare timber.
Stretched in the sun on this rough rock,
I feel the stir among the hickory buds,
the red tips on the maple, and wonder
who could name these sounds--the flowing
over,
the surging around roots and stones.

Up north, a man too young
to limp and stumble, with children
not yet grown, lies in bed
after biopsy, making what terms he can
with a brain tumor. All winter
it kept roaring in his ears
with no interpreter. Now he has one.

Downstream my wife bathes her feet
by a sweetgum tree.

For you, John, heaven might start like this,
from bedrock, when one voice
that fills all hollows
like the voice of many waters
stops singing in an unknown tongue.

--Max Sutton, Feb. 1994 issue "First Things"

Naomi's post on the "Christians and Postmoderns" thread, with "...we are listeners for each other..." made me think of this poem and dig it out. I'm still struggling with things, pretty low on faith a good deal of the time, and I appreciate others being listeners, interpreters, and seers for me when God seems baffling.

Reviews for M. Scott Peck's Denial of the Soul: www.amazon.com/Denial-Soul-M-Scott-Peck/dp/0671010476

I fixed the link (I think).