One thing I found over the years, on various work venues, is that raising awareness of the existence of personality types allowed my employees to quit beating each other up, too. It can be a tool for increasing empathy and compassion and was an excellent catalyst to get folks talking to each other. We've had great fun at home, too.

Anne wrote: I'm coming in a bit late on this, but I am an INFP and I came out a "1" on the Enneagram thingie. That doesn't seem to say much at all, does it? I did the Enneagram thingie twice and it still came out a "1."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

One dynamic on the enneagram, that authors claim, is that personalities can have a well developed wing, which is one of the adjacent numbers on the diagram. Hence, to get an INFP MBTI and a 1 enneagram, would suggest, perhaps, that you are a 1 with a 9 wing. This is the same phenomenon as Phil reported, except he was a 5 with a 4 wing (which I'm fairly certain is what I am). These subtypes are very significant.

Now that everyone is cursorily familiar with the dynamism, I can introduce the ideas that Phil alluded to (but appeared to want to avoid like the plague) --- those being directions of integration and disintegration as well as levels of development for each type. Both of these ideas explore what happens on a continuum, for each type, between healthy vs average vs neurotic (to even psychotic) states. The arrows on the enneagram, between the different types, indicate how we might act out using other personality traits of certain other types when we are moving toward integration vs disintegration. The levels of development, within each type, deal with how we behave in exhibiting traits within the types, again moving from the healthy to the unhealthy. Also, each triad is grouped by people who are responding in a certain way, instinctively vs affectively vs cognitively such that 8 and 9 and 1 represent gut responses , 2 and 3 and 4 represent feeling responses and 5 and 6 and 7 represent thinking responses. The responses for each type relate to whether or not we overexpress or underexpress the gut, feeling or thinking traits or even are out of touch with same. These three types of responses have been related, in Freudian terms of ego, id and superego, such that within each triad (instinctual, feeling and thinking) folks can be primarily operating out of one of these faculties. This type of discussion can get tedious (as can 5's who write about such), especially without concrete examples, but the ideas are anything but abstract when we start recognizing these traits in ourselves and others. I just offered this adiitional level of depth to tease everyone into the realization that the science (and the art) of the psychology of personality is intricate and multilayered (ergo confounding and in need of the caveats that some of you seemed to be instinctively in touch with, such as boxing people in with labels). Do we keep going? Can you see how this knowledge can aid in a person's efforts toward personal transformation? Can you see how you behave when under stress and moving more toward neurosis vs healthy responses? Can you see how persons with the same types can still be very different due both to their states of health and levels of development, and whether they are moving toward integration or disintegration? Can you see how the energies of the thinkers tends to move away or withdraw from others, of the feelers tends to move toward others and of gut-responders over-against others (keeping in mind that 9's, for instance, are out of touch with such a gut response and are the peacemakers, 1's underexpress it and repress and hold them in, while 8's overexpress it and come across as the bullies over the world)? Now, based on what you know, in the other triads, which numbers express the under vs over vs out of touch expression of gut responses, feeling or thinking?

Good day, all.
pax tibi,
jb

p.s. pardon while I don't edit for grammar or spelling - life's too short

jb wrote:

<<keeping in mind that 9's, for instance, are out of touch with such a gut response and are the peacemakers, 1's underexpress it and repress and hold them in, while 8's overexpress it and come across as the bullies over the world>>

Well, jb, if I'm a "1" with a "9" wing as you suggest, then this hits home. The therapist I'm working with asked me where my anger was?? I'm beginning to think that my anger can actually help me to be stronger.....can help me to hold my own, especially when dealing with family members. If I'm angry enough, I CAN hold my own with them....but if I squelch the anger, and don't act on it immediately, then they walk all over me, I feel like a "weak failure" and I start beating myself up again. Soooo......Brad, you see, I AM willing to make some efforts to change. When angry feelings come.....I'm going to GO WITH THEM!!



Thanks jb. I'll let you know how things go.

Anne

First off: JB, I�m listening. I�m confused but I�m listening.

Anne said: I'm beginning to think that my anger can actually help me to be stronger.....can help me to hold my own, especially when dealing with family members. If I'm angry enough, I CAN hold my own with them....but if I squelch the anger, and don't act on it immediately, then they walk all over me, I feel like a "weak failure" and I start beating myself up again. Soooo......Brad, you see, I AM willing to make some efforts to change. When angry feelings come.....I'm going to GO WITH THEM!!

I don�t know about all them fancy numbers and terms that Mr. JB is talkin� �bout but I do know a thing or two about unexpressed anger. Just a second [Pounds on wall.] �I�m trying to have a conversation here! Would you PLEASE turn that &@#$ music down?� Okay. Where was I?

It is true that people like you and me have swallowed some anger and that ain�t good. And we feel quite weak and vulnerable because of it. And we do need to learn that it�s okay to assert ourselves concerning our own needs and rights. Absatively. But just one goll dern second. There�s more to this anger business then just repression (and even more to it than co-dependence or intimidation). All that you say is true, but you must also see the possible (and probable if ya ask me) other side of the coin. You, Anne, have a compassionate streak in you that WILLINGLY avoids some types of anger because your first reaction isn�t �damn, I�ve been offended� but is �that other person really is in misery and I�m not going to make things any worse.� The last thing in the world I want to be is a raving anger-monster just like some of the people I�ve known. That�s just something instinctual.

I certainly do believe that we can and should give a few people around us an earful. That is healthy and good. And we will from time to time go overboard and that�s okay too. But underneath all this you�ve gotta at least entertain the possibility that there is a strength in your inherent characteristic that you don�t wish to be an anger-monster. It�s not all about being repressed. You can have a calm strength in knowing that the bad vibes of people around us need no longer manipulate us. We don�t have to be involved in an endless tit for tat with other people�s transgressions against us.

Brad wrote:

<<I certainly do believe that we can and should give a few people around us an earful. That is healthy and good. And we will from time to time go overboard and that’s okay too. But underneath all this you’ve gotta at least entertain the possibility that there is a strength in your inherent characteristic that you don’t wish to be an anger-monster. It’s not all about being repressed. You can have a calm strength in knowing that the bad vibes of people around us need no longer manipulate us. We don’t have to be involved in an endless tit for tat with other people’s transgressions against us.>>

Thanks for your thoughts, Brad. I think there is much merit it what you've said. And you're right....I don't want to go around screaming at everybody every day, and I have no intention of doing so. I'm going to hold out for the really big stuff, you know?? I'm going to pick my battles, as they say.

Right now I'm raising two teenagers with a husband who would prefer I handle all the bad guy stuff. He doesn't want to really get involved, but he sure wants to criticize the way I do it.(My MBTI says I am overly sensitive to criticism.)The teenagers know exactly how to push my buttons, so I am going to NEED to get mad at them sometimes. I'm determined to dump some of the parenting responsibility in my husband's lap. I need to do this for my own well being....to relieve myself of some of this self-induced blame and guilt.

Funny....you're telling me that there is strength in not being an anger-monster. But still, there is a part of me that I loathe because I see it as a sign of being weak. It certainly does seem to be two sides of a coin!! That's where (I think)something like the MBTI can help me out. I can read through those descriptions of myself and almost use them as affirmations, you know? The things that I see as faults or weaknesses sound almost good, or at least ACCEPTABLE when I read them in my MBTI profile. Make sense??

Let's face it.....I'm NOT going to turn into an anger monster...that's way too much of a stretch for me, character/personality wise. But if I screamed at somebody even once a week, it would probably be effective and I'd feel better about myself. What do you think??

Thanks for listening, Brad.

Anne

Anne said: And you're right....I don't want to go around screaming at everybody every day, and I have no intention of doing so. I'm going to hold out for the really big stuff, you know?? I'm going to pick my battles, as they say.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I know several people just like me and I think I know the "type." We tend to blow up ONLY at the big things because we just don't know how to handle our anger when dealing with the small stuff. All that repressed anger is just waiting there and we know we have trouble just dispensing it in small, appropriate doses. And often enough we blow up at something that was actually kind of a small thing and thus MAKE IT a big thing. Don't mind me if I'm projecting, but this kind of stuff is pretty common.

Right now I'm raising two teenagers with a husband who would prefer I handle all the bad guy stuff. He doesn't want to really get involved, but he sure wants to criticize the way I do it.

Well, he's probably pretty stressed with other stuff and just can't handle more. Or he's unsure about his own skills at discipline and would rather let YOU do it so he can never be wrong. Teenagers. Heck, I don't blame either one of you for going slightly nutso. I'm sure we never saw the episodes where Ward and June Cleaver were at each other's throats arguing about Wally coming home drunk.

(My MBTI says I am overly sensitive to criticism.)The teenagers know exactly how to push my buttons, so I am going to NEED to get mad at them sometimes.

Okay. Understood. But it wouldn't hurt to have a nice, calm talk with them from time to time and just give them your point of view; that their misbehavior and disrespect and "button pushing" is hurtful to you and makes you angry and that, because you love them and have trouble expressing anger, that this ties you in knots. You might find they have a few things to tell you too. Former adversaries can quickly become allies.

I'm determined to dump some of the parenting responsibility in my husband's lap.

He'll learn from watching how you competently handle things. I think he probably just sees the inherent stress in the situation and figures there ISN'T any way to handle it so why bother?

I need to do this for my own well being....to relieve myself of some of this self-induced blame and guilt.

Feeling over-worked and under-appreciated? You probably are over-worked and under-appreciated. It's my understanding that not until your kids have kids of their own that they will even begin to understand things. Teenagers who are a handful and a husband that is not 100% together with you in handling things doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong.

Funny....you're telling me that there is strength in not being an anger-monster. But still, there is a part of me that I loathe because I see it as a sign of being weak.

Well, all one need do is look around and see what the "strong" are doing. In many cases they appear to be getting what they want and getting other people to do their bidding. What you often don't see is that inside they are often miserable. I probably can't change my personality type any more than you can. But I can recognize that the definition of "weak" is not so cut and dried.

It certainly does seem to be two sides of a coin!! That's where (I think)something like the MBTI can help me out. I can read through those descriptions of myself and almost use them as affirmations, you know? The things that I see as faults or weaknesses sound almost good, or at least ACCEPTABLE when I read them in my MBTI profile. Make sense??

It makes PERFECT sense. We read a few descriptions like that and realize we're not alone. We're not unique. Heck, we're so common that just a few general descriptions can fit US to a tee. I also find that to be reassuring.

Let's face it.....I'm NOT going to turn into an anger monster...that's way too much of a stretch for me, character/personality wise. But if I screamed at somebody even once a week, it would probably be effective and I'd feel better about myself. What do you think??

Well, there must be a pretty good reason that children learn quickly that crying, tears and temper tantrums are effective - because they are! We NEED to keep these things in our arsenal of emotional outlets. But the thing to be really aware of - and to avoid almost at all costs - is to get caught up in a war of "anger vs. anger" in which we think that, just to keep our head above water, we have to adopt the tactics of others just to allow our true selves to emerge. Do you like being angry? I don't. I think the key out of this apparent paradox is to use a lot of kind, but blunt, communication techniques. And we have to be aware of our own martyr complexes our own agendas like the kind that we EXPECT that people will treat us fairly and with dignity at all times and that it is an afront to us that people dump their stuff on us. I have a BIG problem with this myself. I've got so much pain and confusing in myself that it's often hard to sympathize with the same in others. But if you can get a glimpse that this is the motivating factor when other people dump stuff on us then it can help.

I'm not talking about your situation, but I know plenty of people who dump, dump and dump some more because they are LOOKING for someone else to strike back so that they can dump THEIR anger. I won't be a pawn of this anymore. If you are to get angry, Anne, take a moment, count to three, and choose those moments and don't be manipulated by others.

Anne and Brad _ It seems to me that you are BOTH right on! Brad in his affirmation of the strengths of your fundamental nature (and of the manifold sources for such responses as anger, as the enneagram often demonstrates similar behaviors coming from entirly different underlying dynamisms), those strengths coming from all that is healthy in your temperament. You are correct about those things which are weaknesses. If your lack of expression comes from being out of touch with feelings or repression, then it is a tendency to deal with as you move toward full integration (or for some, from neurosis to health).

I could quote y'all verbatim from this book I am reading about how some unhealthy 5's write in this tedious prose that goes on and on and on and which no one but the neurotic author understands and how that results from an overexpression of cognitive functions and not really a movement toward but rather away from others and how, so very often, you get to the end of what they've written and not even you nor they know what it was truly all about but, in my effort to more fully integrate, I think healthfully in the direction of an 8, what I have to do to overcome this is to better get in touch with ... I forget.

pax tibi,
jb

quote:

Moreover, for all the time they spend thinking, average fives at this level, do not communicate to others clearly, because their thought complexes are so complex and convoluted. They get into too much detail, their ideas become highly condensed. The stream of consciousness floods out in elaborate monologues, making it difficult for others to follow their train of thought. They go off on tangents, jumping from one point to another without indicating the intervening steps in their logic. ... Their monologues may well be fascinating, and possibly breathtaking in their sweep of their intellectual range; however, their discourses may also be strange and tedious, because the mental exertion required to follow them is exhausting. Nor is it always clear that the trip will be worth the effort, although average 5's think that whatever they have to say is as interesting to others as it is to themselves.

From __Personality Types__, Using the Enneagram for Self Discovery__, by Riso and Hudson, --now mind you, I knew this about myself already, I just haven't figured out what to do about it. For a good example of this phenomenon see this.

Now, it continues on a more positive note, when this trait gets healthy: Healthy Fives like sharing their knowledge because they often learn more when they discuss their ideas with someone else. This is why healthy fives make exciting teachers, colleagues and friends.

OK - so much for ture confessions. Phil, what is YOUR unhealthy 5-ish trait?

pax tibi,
jb

Sheesh, I've been up to my ears in appointments and I.T. stuff today and am hopelessly behind.

Unhealthy 5 thing, JB, was thinking I needed to understanding everything, have it all figured out, before I could give consent of the will. Also, being so "in my head" that I was out of touch with my feelings. I still have a tendency to both, but not as badly as before.

(I enjoyed your example of your own 5-ish shadow, JB. Can you hear the forum sighing in relief as you come to grips with this. )

I do think that tests like MBTI and Enneagram can help to validate basic tendencies we've recognized, but maybe pathologized. Growing up, I was told again and again that I was "anti-social," when really I was just being an introvert. It was quite a relief, later in life, to learn that as an introverted intuitive, there was nothing wrong with me at all. I wasn't in the least anti-social, not in the right social context. But, no, going and chit-chatting with strangers was not my cup of tea. Still isn't, except on boards like this (. . . sometimes).

Same goes for being a 5. OK, yep, I do that. Glad to hear others do, too.

And Anne, 1's are generally kind of perfectionistic, hard on themselves, and constantly doing battle with guilt. They also get angry about things not going the "right" way, etc.

That can be a redeeming discovery. And even though I'm not convinced that that arrow movement scheme on the Enneagram is trustworthy, it does seem to point to a basic movement for healing.

It's when we take these kinds of things and use them excessively for self-definition, or worse, using them to now guide or excuse our actions that they lose their usefulness. They become attachment-labels, and like all attachments, they limit and stifle the spirit.

Hope this helps to contribute. I'll be re-reading over some of the posts to see if more responses suggest themselves.

Phil

Phil said about JB: I enjoyed your example of your own 5-ish shadow, JB. Can you hear the forum sighing in relief as you come to grips with this.

This is one of those cases where I�m glad I didn�t have a mouth full of Caffeine-Free Diet Coke. I think it�s charming and rare that a person can make such a friendly admission about themselves as JB has done. I should just leave his comments as they are. But what fun would that be?

JB, you are intelligent and thoughtful and no doubt do some deep thinking on subjects that most people don�t even know exist. That your comments may be tinged with a certain intellectual gregariousness is often just intrinsic to your subject matter. But I�ve seen you condense things down and focus your thoughts and make the most complex things intelligible, and this has nothing to do with �dumbing it down.� Nor are your most deep, almost incomprehensible thoughts (to me, anyway) tinged with elitism or snobbery. [Freudian analysis]I just think, like most of us, you may be a little shy about expressing some of these thoughts and keeping them in a quite complex form is a safe way to express them.[/Freudian analysis] Either way I always enjoy what you have to say.

That will be $200.00. Next.

Some random thoughts about MBTI and the Enneagram:

1. I've been to the Enneagram/MBTI website several times, but I'm not too strongly impressed with the correspondences that they've found. They're awkward, and kinda ugly from a theoretical perspective, taking round pegs, pushing them into square holes, and piling up the shavings into little quantified stacks.

From the viewpoint of those very comfortable with psychological methods, MBTI is almost certainly the winner. It refines three psychological dichotomies which Jung conceptualized, and is *defined* by tests. Testing as INFP in preferences, for example, means you ipso facto, "ARE" INFP.

The Enneagram, on the other hand, is subtle, so subtle it's more an art than a science, and without input from friends, and MUCH thought, a huge number of people are apt to miss their primary number. (Phil, methinks you're pretty sixy! ) What really is the number(s) of issue is not determined by things like information-gathering and decision-making preferences, but very "shadow" issues, often more apparent to others than the individual. Egrm immediately concerns itself with the psychic imbalances and sinful potentials (not appropriate for workplace workshops) and is often difficult for those uncomfortable with murkiness to wrap their brains around. Not appropriate anyway. The E-gram is more about soul issues than psychological preferences. It's built on a trichotomy of Head (objective thinking), Heart (meaning, identity, and relating), and Gut (motion, instinctive reactions, desire, anger, etc.) energies in the soul, although only Beesing's book really dealt well with that part of the theoretical basis, IMHO.

2. Personally, I find that MBTI is almost fluffy compared to Enneagram when really used seriously as a tool for understanding others. Big deal to know that I'm INFP. I know that I'm on the "yin" side of all four scales, and that doing the "yang" stuff, Extraverting, being in my senses, deciding things without emotional considerations, and acting without endless data gathering is difficult. No revelations there.

However, as an almost even split of 4/5, I find the Enneagram describes my world, and parts of myself that I would MUCH rather not know about. Both numbers tend to be "gutless," i.e., weaker than most in knowing what they really want and acting upon it, more hesitant than most in voicing anger, owning their desires, and a little less comfortable in everyday kinds of movement and memory, and simple confident action without "thinking" and "feeling". Fours can obsess with meaning, purpose and identity in such a way they compulsively alienate themselves from "normal" concerns, while secretly envying others who are more natural. Fives can retreat into private observations and "think" life instead of live it. Stuff I have to watch for.

Also interesting to me that being on the cusp,as it were, seems to keep me from forming cliques of friends. None of my friends are close to any other of my friends; it's like this, a "four" crowd is put off by my fivey skepticism and conceptualizing, and "five" crowds are completely at odds with my mystical dreaminess.

I like thinking of the E-gram as the interrelationship of strong/weak head, heart, and gut energy much more than nine personality types. Also, the use of the E-gram for personality seems to be a recent development. The enneagram was originally conceived as a diagram of process, of which it is brilliant. For instance, the general pattern of mythological stories closely follows the E-gram, starting and ending at 9, the point of rest. The StoryCraft writing software follows Joseph Campbell's 12-step mythological model, which corresponds very neatly to the E-gram with two steps mapped onto points 3, 6, and 9,the "shock points" of the Enneagram of process.

3. Regarding chakras, 1-3 have largely "gut" concerns, 4 is the 'heart" chakra, and 5-6 are concerned with what the e-gram calls "head" matters. 7, of course is spiritual in nature, and doesn't really correspond to an enneagram point, but E-9 has some similarities to it. To the degree that chakras correspond to head, heart and gut issues, Kundalini process might be seen as a working upon E-gram issues.

4. Some writers are abandoning the ideas of the arrows. I think it's the least useable part of e-theory, but sometimes it makes a lot of sense; numbers connected by lines sometimes tend to blend together. Remember Balki Bartokamus of "Perfect Strangers?" Wonderfully-designed character! In terms of behavior, a blend of 1 (morality) and 7 (pleasure). Given Balki's happiness with being a good person in the world, the arrows suggest he's a 1 integrating high 7 qualities, rather than a 7 dissolving into low 1 qualities. Most typologies would tend to see him in terms of behavior, a wild and crazy fun-loving guy, but the depth of the e-gram makes you immediately think about his moral foundation as really being the motor that drives him.

5. The most interesting correspondence I've seen between Egrm and MBTI was a three-dimensional map of a cube. The six faces of the cube corresponded to the primary Jungian dichotomies: Thinking was one face, Feeling the opposite
Extraversion one, Introversion opp.
Perceiving vs. Judging.

The corners of the cube were the eight enneagram points, less 9, which was located at the center.
Some objected to this, since 9 seems intro, but in enneagramic terms, nine is kind of central, It manifests the least "personality" (Homer Simpson--no personality, or Thich Nhat Hahn--transcending personality).

Not quite perfect, but it correlated well a threeness within MBTI with a threeness of the Egrm, and opened up the potential of a new visual dimension, of psychospiritual space, as opposed to plane diagrams. It also could show how one can move from one corner to another in hte course of a day, or feel a particular edge or corner to be home, how some personalities appear to be larger and more complex than others etc. The diagram is located at: http://tap3x.net/wwwboard/new/242.html

The book I recommend best for e-gram is The Wisdom of the Enneagram, review on my site at:
http://www.frimmin.com/9gram/9gram.html .

re: Some random thoughts about MBTI and the Enneagram by Jon

BRAVO! ENCORE!

thanks, Jon, for the informed perspective and the added bonus of it being supplemented by such depth of personal sharing, most generous

pax,
jb

Yes, Jon. Nicely done! Thanks for taking the time to post your substantive reflections and sharing.

When I went through enneagram training years ago, I, too, found the least helpful aspect to be the arrow theory. The 9 compulsions, with three each for head, heart, and gut made sense. I had just been through a week-long training with Jean Houston, who had used the theme of spiritualities of Tin Man, Lion, and Scarecrow, which also corresponded to these three centers. That each center has three compulsions related to inner focus, outer focus, and balance between also made sense. I saw this as a good tool to use in concert with the roles that family systems theorists were describing, especially for roles from dysfunctional families. Still do!

You wrote: Personally, I find that MBTI is almost fluffy compared to Enneagram when really used seriously as a tool for understanding others. Big deal to know that I'm INFP.

Hmm, I'm wondering if you've been exposed to the developmental aspect of MBTI. It really describes one's typological development, rather than a static temperament (as Kiersey-Bates presents it in Please Understand Me.

For example, INFP tells me that you're an introverted feeler, with extraverted intuition as the auxilliary function. It predicts that from 20-35 years of age, one of your main developmental tasks will be developing the introverted sensate function, and also that your shadow side (emerging after age 35), which is most invested with female energy, is extraverted thinking. If you ever come across an extraverted thinking female who is remotely attractive, you're likely to feel strongly drawn to her. Extraverted thinking also holds something of a key to some of your deepest spiritual experiences. All that I got from INFP, and that's without even knowing you. I don't know how well it actually fits, of course.

- Or consider the distinction between JB's type (INTP) and mine and Brad's (INTJ). Brad and I are introverted intuitives, with attention and energy naturally drawn through the intuitive function to focus on the inner world and its possibilities. Lots of stuff, there, to sort out, which we do using the auxilliary thinking function. What gets expressed (extraverted) is what the thinking function has sorted out and organized, which has both its plus and minus sides--the minus being that it seems to express something of a "final status" or "closure" to an issue.

Compare that with JB's writings. Same INT, but that P on the end makes all the difference, telling me that JB is more of an introverted thinker with extraverted intuition as his second or auxilliary function--the opposite of how Brad and I experience these functions. JB's attention and energy is naturally drawn to the inner world of ideas, and when he expresses them through the intuitive function, he shares the myriad of possibilities for organizing and understanding these ideas. There are similarities with INTJ's, but some significant differences as well. INTP also tells me that JB has extraverted feeling as his inferior/shadow function, meaning that women who embody this type are most like his shadow side, and that this somehow holds a key to a very different kind of encounter with God.

I found your ideas about the chakras and their associations with enneagram types interesting. There are some rough associations between the chakras and head, heart, and gut, so that's a starting point. Of course, as I'm sure you know, there are also some significant differences. As an INTJ, I'm always on the lookout for the "grand, unifying theory," but need to respect that these different models also say something unique and valuable.

Good thread! Let's hope the extraverts and feeling types haven't been totally scared off with some of this discussion. That kind of tends to happen whenever INT's and INF's get going. First thing you know, the crowd has drifted away, politely excusing themselves . . .

Phil

P.S. I have some handouts I've used for workshops describing the developmental aspects of MBTI. If there's an interest, let me know and I'll put them up as PDFs.

re: JB has extraverted feeling as his inferior/shadow function, meaning that women who embody this type are most like his shadow side
+++

Yes, I married a self-described flaming 2, ESFJ, who is just absolutely beautiful, inside and out. For over 20 years, I have been putting up fences and she has been installing gates.

But then, Phil could tell you about this girl I dated in college ... really introverted, deep thinker ...

pax,
jb

re: P.S. I have some handouts I've used for workshops describing the developmental aspects of MBTI. If there's an interest, let me know and I'll put them up as PDFs.

Seriously, you are not going to toss such meat into the ring and then not let the avaricious 5's get at it!

Quotes from Brad:

<<Teenagers who are a handful and a husband that is not 100% together with you in handling things doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong.>>

<<Well, all one need do is look around and see what the "strong" are doing. In many cases they appear to be getting what they want and getting other people to do their bidding. What you often don't see is that inside they are often miserable. I probably can't change my personality type any more than you can. But I can recognize that the definition of "weak" is not so cut and dried.>>

Thanks Brad. You're right...."weak" can mean many things. And this business of raising kids is not so cut-and-dried. There IS no ONE WAY to do it, and I look around and see it being done in so many different ways and then I feel rather insecure in the ways that I'm doing it. Rather than say that I'm consumed by "guilt" it's probably more of a case of insecurity. And just how much "credit" or "blame" does one take (or assume) when it comes to how one's kids "seem" to be turning out (and really my kids aren't total messes...at least not yet!).

My old pattern of the past was to sort of "cover" for the kids in order to avoid criticism from the husband. Make sense? My MBTI says that I'm overly sensitive to criticsm, and will go to great lengths to avoid conflict. I've worked very hard at breaking this pattern....knowing that it was not a healthy pattern.....but of course this means having to deal with more criticism from my husband. That is sort of the heart of the matter.

Whew. I know I sound very self absorbed right now, but right now I'm really trying hard to work on these issues and get to the root of things. Any other feedback, Brad??

Anne

Thanks Brad. You're right...."weak" can mean many things. And this business of raising kids is not so cut-and-dried. There IS no ONE WAY to do it, and I look around and see it being done in so many different ways and then I feel rather insecure in the ways that I'm doing it.

I can offer only one bit of advice about raising kids: treat them with the same respect you would a friend. I'm not speaking of you, but if I were take most of the problems that I've seen families have and lump them into one idea it would be that once we label something as "family" we tend to throw most common social rules out the door.

Rather than say that I'm consumed by "guilt" it's probably more of a case of insecurity. And just how much "credit" or "blame" does one take (or assume) when it comes to how one's kids "seem" to be turning out (and really my kids aren't total messes...at least not yet!).

Give the best of what you have and the rest will take care of itself. No parent is perfect and I think that a certain amount of adversity is normal and probably helps prepare one for later life.

My old pattern of the past was to sort of "cover" for the kids in order to avoid criticism from the husband. Make sense?

I understand.

Whew. I know I sound very self absorbed right now, but right now I'm really trying hard to work on these issues and get to the root of things. Any other feedback, Brad??

Yeah...quit trying. You're okay just as you are. We can't always change ourselves to suit the world. Sometimes we just have to be who we are and let the part of the world that likes this find us (or we find them). There's no magic pill here on earth. You have every right to be treated with dignity and respect and compassion and patience. You may cultivate these things in yourself but there's no guarantee that they will be reciprocated. Doing these things has to be their own reward. However, if there are deeper connections to be made amongst those already around you then this will give an opportunity for these connections to be made.

Brad advised:

<<Give the best of what you have and the rest will take care of itself.>>

Thanks Brad. I'll try to "quit trying" so hard.

And thanks again for listening. Is the weather nice in Washington this time of year? I've never been to your part of the country.

Anne

Is the weather nice in Washington this time of year? I've never been to your part of the country.

The OFFICIAL answer, Anne, is that it rains all the time. It is in fact raining right now.

[Invisible to Californians] Actually, we've had an extraordinarily nice June. Yes, we get our share of rain but we also get our share of sun. And we have clean air, beautiful mountains and waters and it's still relatively uncrowded. Where I live, in Bremerton, was once voted the most livable city in American by Forbes (or some such magazine). However, so that we don't lose these things to overcrowding we don't like the word to get out too much. Please come visit. Leave all your money. And then go home. [/Invisible to Californians]

You're welcome.

Yeah...quit trying. You're okay just as you are. We can't always change ourselves to suit the world. Sometimes we just have to be who we are and let the part of the world that likes this find us (or we find them).

I know that's really hard for Enneagram One types, but the practice of unconditional self-acceptance is certainly a good one--not just for you, Anne, but all of us, I'm sure.

-----------

OK . . . (drum roll) . . . the link to a few pertinent handouts I've compiled into one pdf document is http://shalomplace.com/res/jungtypes.pdf . (Hey Brad, that was a snap with Preview.) I you don't have a pdf plug-in for your browser, save it to your hard drive and open with Acrobat Reader. Then we can discuss some of this, perhaps.

Phil

Note to JB: ahh, yes, I know the one you're talking about . . . pretty, shy, younger sister of the woman I was dating . . . ACOA's . . . hard to say what their types were. I hope they have found happiness!

re: Note to JB: ahh, yes, I know the one you're talking about

I was being facetious, actually affirming your notion that introverted thinkers just might fall for extroverted feelers

On more pressing matters, I couldn't open that pdf, but will try on my laptop; Perhaps I need to upgrade my Acrobat. Could others of you open it?

thanks,
jb

Phil,

I can't get it to open either. I tried several ways...kept getting messages such as "There was an error processing a page....too few operands."
OR...."Unable to extract the embedded font...may not be able to read some characters"

I dunno.....

Anne

Sorry. I don't know why that pdf isn't working. I can look at it just fine on my hard drive in Acrobat Reader, but it doesn't show on the web.

Oh well, what I did was compress it in zip format. Just unzip/decompress on your hard drive and then look at it. Meanwhile, I'll see what I can learn about why it's not showing on the remote server.

To download the zip file, click here.

re: Just unzip/decompress on your hard drive and then look at it.

Works great. Good stuff. Muchas Gracias! jb

Idealized Beauty: strong sexual desire and friendship. Nobility. Julie Andrews.

Okay, who�s been reading my mind? I don�t remember telling anyone that I�ve always had a thing for Julie Andrews.

Sapientia. Wisdom personified. Whoopi Goldberg on Star Trek. Mona Lisa.

I see that a Trekie wrote this. My choice would have been Margaret Thatcher. Don�t get me wrong, I liked Whoopi on Star Trek (if nowhere else).

Heh, good suggestion on Margaret Thatcher, Brad. Or Golda Meier?

I'm around a lot of sapientine nuns with my work in Great Bend, which can only help, I think. Having spent a lot of years pretty caught up in those stage one and two attractions, this is quite a relief.

OK, I got that pdf uploaded OK and it now shows without having to get the zipped version. Uploading to the remote server in passive mode did the trick. Duh! I should have remembered that.

http://shalomplace.com/res/jungtypes.pdf