Step One: Figure Out your MBTI Personality Type:

Myers Briggs Personality Test

Step Two: Figure Out your Enneagram Type

Enneagram Test

Step Three: Confirm Your Type

Functional Preference Type - Jungian/MBTI Type

Myers Briggs Type Descriptions

Step Four: See if your Enneagram & MBTI Correspond via this hypothesis:

Common Ground Between Enneagram & MBTI



Some say these typology systems, MBTI & Enneagram, don't truly correspond - what do you think? What's been your experience, personally or in counseling/direction as director/directee? Did you take the tests? Learn anything about yourself or others? Do you believe, like some conservative elements in the Roman Catholic Church, that the enneagram is so much New Age poppycock? or even diabolical or occult?

pax tibi,
jb
providing an alternative thread to be more sensitive to the other temperaments (and genders, even) at Shalomplace

Hmmmmm ...well...according to that illustration there, I'm all over the board..LOL! On the MBTI I was ISFP..which in my opinion really hit the nail on the head in describing how I think and feel and act. On the Enneagram test I was a 3 which seemed pretty far away from who I am, although it said these were energies I might not be aware of using ..I'll say! On the Functional Preference type...it all ended up equalling a 4. So...I don't know...ROFL! They don't seem to correspond at all.
As far as these tests being occultic or whatever....nahhhhh. However, I do think one can become too dependent on what the test scores say. Plus the fact that most of us cheat a tad cause we either don't want to come right out and admit something about ourselves...or the option we truly feel isn't there. Another thing that I don't see too much on these types of tests is how our religion/faith is taken into account. By that I mean that some results seem to come from a purely psychological or "in general" train of computation..rather than taking into account that one's faith or belief influences certain decisions we make.
Did you take the test??.lol. Did yours correspond....am I the only oddball????!!!??? (kidding!)
And another thing...I had to use the dictionary to find out what some of the options even meant!!!!!!!!! What does THAT say about it all..hahaha!

Enneagram 5 and INTJ, here. Oh well. The authors can't win 'em all, but those are rough correlations.

Actually, I have extensive training in both of these disciplines, but value the approach of Jung's psychological types (MBTI) much more, as I think it much more grounded in the structure of the psyche. It also helps us to understand many patterns in relationships, and describes important elements of the shadow side of our nature.

In 1986, I took a two-week training series in the Enneagram years ago, 9 am to 4 pm each day, with Maria Beesing, who is the author of one of the early books on the Enneagram. I found the descriptions very interesting, and that a lot had been done to work out patterns of relationships. Already familiar with roles people adopt in families, it seemed to me there was potential for better understanding some of this in Enneagram, as it works with basic compulsions. The "arrow theory" perplexed me, however. Where did that come from? Why did it supposedly work? Did it, in fact, work? When I'd ask these questions, I was told that I was "just being a 5," and everyone had a chuckle at my expense (I was the only 5 there). Following up, one time, I noted that my question had not really been answered, and was told that there's a lot of mystery about the Enneagram that we just don't understand. Later, upon researching this topic for myself, I learned that its arrow theory was adopted from some numerological scheme, which was given "psychological flesh" only in the 1970's. I had been told that it was an "ancient tool used by the Sufis," but there's no record of this either. Instead, it was used by Gurdjeiff (sic), as new-agey a guy as you'll ever find, to inform what he called "the work," which was his approach to spirituality emphasizing awareness.

Within a few years, the Enneagram was all the rage. Some really good people were writing books on how they found it so helpful, how it works, etc. I do not doubt this, as any system which encourages virtue and discourages vice is bound to be helpful. I also do believe that the 9 compulsions can be recognized, once you know to look for them--sort of one of those "you see what you expect to see" situations. About the arrow theory, however, I still have my doubts, and don't really use Enneagram much in my work.

All for the FWIW file . . .

Phil

Enneagram 5 and INTJ, here.

4 and INTJ also, Phil. INTJ's rule, man! We're #1! We're #1! (Gee...maybe I didn't do that test as carefully as I should have.)

INFP and 9 here... Yikes!
Peace,
Wanda

Phil: Enneagram 5 and INTJ, here. Oh well. The authors can't win 'em all, but those are rough correlations.

Actually, the Enneagram folks would say, from your report, that you are 5 with a 4 wing.

Brad: 4 and INTJ also, Phil.

Well, I had concluded that I was a 5 with a 4 wing, ergo ... I am somewhat deflated that a 30+ year friendship, beginning in college, was grounded in narcissistic worship of my mirror temperament image --- so, too, my fondness of Brad. Ladies, if this message board gets a bit intimidating with all these masculine brands of intuitive thinkers ... well, I just beg your forgiveness. Please hang around and help us to individuate and integrate!

I don't have any exhaustive commentary because I'm still reading up on this but I do find the modern nuanced versions enlightening. I agree with Phil --- the MBTI and other typologies, more grounded in modern psychological knowledge, appear more on the mark. Truth be known, if I start with someone's MBTI, I can better navigate to their likely enneagram. But me agreeing with Phil and Brad is like agreeing with johnboy. There's an old saying: If you and I were totally alike and agreed on everything then one of us is unnecessary. Phil doesn't like almonds in his Hershey Bars --- so I can stay

pax,
jb

re: I was ISFP..which in my opinion really hit the nail on the head in describing how I think and feel and act. On the Enneagram test I was a 3 which seemed pretty far away from who I am
*******************************************

Since the 3 possibly corresponds to ES(T/F)P and there is possible consistency on the SFP's with the apparent inconsistency on the Extrovert-Introvert scale ... hmmm ... I wonder if maybe you are a 9 who has become very well integrated on that component (redeemed as some folks say)? One way to get at this discrimination/discernment is to ask yourself, when under stress, do I act more like an extrovert or introvert? When at my best? How was I in childhood, early development? The tendency, they say, is for everyone to move toward increased introversion as life unfolds, even those who start out as introverts? Caveat: I am just musing out loud. Thanks, all, for sharing.

pax,
jb

One way to get at this discrimination/discernment is to ask yourself, when under stress, do I act more like an extrovert or introvert? When at my best? How was I in childhood, early development? The tendency, they say, is for everyone to move toward increased introversion as life unfolds, even those who start out as introverts?
Okay...well here we go, since you all seem to know what this is all about, I'll let you tell me!..lol
When I'm under stress.....that depends on what TYPE of stress you're talking about. At times I become very extroverted...at other times introverted to the point of withdrawal from the outside world for a time so that I can get my peace back.
What at my best....I'm a bit more of an extrovert I'd say.
In childhood...extremely introverted....developing years not a whole lot better. I was one of those weird kids that just thought a lot and didn't say much
As I've grown older, I've actually become more extroverted because I am almost (notice the almost) completely comfortable with who I am and figure it takes all kinds so I don't have to hide who I am. Does that make sense?
So....does that mean I'm that "redeemed" thing you were talking about? Or does that mean I'm not!?...lol
*anxiously awaiting all comments and revelations*

(Terri, I see you posted before my reply, which was interrupted by a phone call. I think there might be something in my response that connects, however.)

Funny, but INTJ's are less than 1% of the population, the majority of folks being ESF and EST. Explains a lot, doesn't it? Extraverted America.

JB, I've tangled with some INTJ's whose values were not especially Christian and they are QUITE a bit more different from you and I than almonds in Hersey bars. You probably remember some of those profs from our biology days. Then there is Brad, who doesn't like Mac OS X, and . . . well, so much for MBTI predicting anything.

Except, personal preferences for things like computers, candy bars, and a whole lot of other things aside, INTJ's are the most dogged in getting at the TRUTH about things. It's our gift, and our curse, as well, since sometimes the truth about things isn't as important as how people are relating in a situation.

Which is why we need our feeling type friends to help us remember that.

According to Jung's system, the older we get, the more likely we are to be integrating something of our opposite tendencies. What say, everyone? Are you feeling types becoming more attuned to the importance of the truth? Are we thinking types becoming more sensitive to how people are getting along? I can say that, for me, there is definite growth in this area, but still a long ways to go.

Phil

When I'd ask these questions, I was told that I was "just being a 5," and everyone had a chuckle at my expense (I was the only 5 there).

Phil, that kind of smarmy comment would have sent my Enneagram off the charts. I think these type of evaluations are great for entertainment purposes but when people take them more seriously then this they get into trouble. Remember all that �Type A, B and C� personality stuff? Again, there is truth in some of it but it seemed to give the Type A�s an excuse to go around acting like asses.

I�m privy right now to a marriage that is falling apart. One of the combatants describes themselves as an ADD person (attention deficit disorder). Let�s face it: we are all quite different and none of us is perfect. But since when did we become nothing more than our imperfections? It�s just one more opportunity to disconnect with the real problems.

People tend to use all these classification games, not as a means to self-discover. but as a means to be fitted with a label. That way we don�t have to take responsibility for all of our own actions. This kind of thinking leads AWAY from understanding.

I�m hardly have what you�d call a Type A high-energy personality. And yet I have my moments of anger and frustration when you�d swear you were looking at Billy Martin (ex Yankees manager known for his wild temper). One day my secretary said something to me. When I�m busy � really busy � I get into a state where I just can�t deal with one more thing. And yet inevitably there will be a phone call that demands my attention. I used to be QUITE abrupt to this secretary when informed that a Mr. or Mrs. Customer needed to talk to me. I did this so often that I wasn�t really aware of it. But one day she came to me and told me � kindly � that she felt I was taking my frustrations out on her. And I knew immediately that I was. And I stopped. She was right. The moral to this is that when we label ourselves and play games with classifications we�re merely reinforcing who we think we already are. But I can guarantee each and every one of you that other people see sides of us that we never imagine exist.

That ADD person in the midst of marital problems defines their world in terms of this supposed condition and then this condition becomes the focal point. But all but perhaps turrets syndrome people have that moment between stimulus and response (idea stolen from JB) when we can decide what to do. Labeling one�s self as �ADD� conveniently takes away this option.

I�ve never found any of these tests or labels to be of much use. In the hands of a professional they may be. But in my hands, at least, they don�t bring any light into those shadowy corners.

------

What's with all these "INTJ's"? And I like my Hershey Bars frozen - nuts or no nuts.

For clarity, I'm an INTP-- difference being that I won't rush to closure as fast as Brad or Phil , weakness being that I won't even crawl to closure (hence my perpetual ya ya about epistemological pluralism and all sorts of things being occulted, in principle).

Terri - does what Phil said resonate: " According to Jung's system, the older we get, the more likely we are to be integrating something of our opposite tendencies. " And your postings here, all light-hearted but depthful, at the same time, speak of this individuation process. Yes - you've been redeemed I'd say. [Pray for Phil and Brad though.]

Brad is right on about the abuses of typologies in the hands of those who engage them superficially. I think the observation that all, ultimately, move toward introversion, only plays out in our later years (advanced age and retirement), when ultimacies gain our focus, that is last things. Individuation - integration of our opposite tendencies - occurs when we are moving into our power curves?

All of my observations, however pedantic, are offered in the brainstorming mode. I know some psychology but am still assessing the enneagram. I am presently reading Personality Types: Using the Enneagram for Self-Discovery see Amazon link by Don Richard Riso, Russ Hudson (Contributor) - heavily influenced by the Jesuit enneagram tradition. They seem to have captured all of the caveats and nuances others have teased out here in this discussion. I'm only on Chapter 3 but it holds promise. For me to comment further would take me out of my enneagram league.

Be well & pax tibi,
jb

Phil bespoke: Then there is Brad, who doesn't like Mac OS X, and . . . well, so much for MBTI predicting anything.

Actually, despite what I�ve already said, if one answers those questions honestly it�s surprising how much similarity it can gauge between people. We could, with a different set of circumstances, quite easily, I believe, hold opposite positions in our private little OS War and be throwing around the same types of arguments.

INTJ's are the most dogged in getting at the TRUTH about things. It's our gift, and our curse, as well, since sometimes the truth about things isn't as important as how people are relating in a situation.

Wow. From one INTJ to another: that�s a brilliant insight, Phil. That of course means we are 100% American Males. Damn your feelings, honey, it only matters what the facts are. Ooops. I�ve made that mistake before. [Fonzi]I was rrr� I was rrrr-rrrrrr. I was wrrrrrong.[/Fonzi]

According to Jung's system, the older we get, the more likely we are to be integrating something of our opposite tendencies.

This sounds promising. If you see someone running naked through the park, that will be me.

And then JB throws water on my optimism with: I think the observation that all, ultimately, move toward introversion, only plays out in our later years

What? I�ll find myself sitting in my underwear in the closet talking all day to my pretend-friend Harvey? If I was any more introverted I�d have to ask permission to talk to myself.

Brad wrote: Actually, despite what I�ve already said, if one answers those questions honestly it�s surprising how much similarity it can gauge between people. We could, with a different set of circumstances, quite easily, I believe, hold opposite positions in our private little OS War and be throwing around the same types of arguments.

I wrote, on another listserv, today:

quote:

"Thanks for sharing this depthful exchange. I resonate with &*^%$'s attempt to balance the various polarities that he identified in his post. I think this is consonant with what (*&^% describes as "integration, or lack thereof". These integrative processes (involving ego transcendence?) seem to be part of becoming a fully alive human, whatever one's hermeneutic may be, super/naturalistically?

I know the practical distinctions and consequences might be considered profound, such as between open-minded skeptics versus skeptical but open minds, but sometimes I think our philosophical kinship, especially in the realm of ethics, transcends our ontological presuppositions and epistemologies. I may have said that poorly, and maybe I said it better when I simply said:
Passionately caring about the same very important things, even in disagreement, sometimes builds bonds moreso than can be built by agreeing on many different things, only superficially.

Was this another way of saying the same thing, Brad? [Twilight Zone riff repeating in the background, building to a crescendo before a sudden, abrupt final note]

pax tibi,
jb

Passionately caring about the same very important things, even in disagreement, sometimes builds bonds moreso than can be built by agreeing on many different things, only superficially.

Was this another way of saying the same thing, Brad?

Now is when I should trot out my well-rehearsed spiel about the string of letters between the once bitter political opponents, Jefferson and Adams. The Letters. The Background.

I think there�s some truth to that, JB. You are a wise man (and a wise something else).

PSR - I see where the posts coming from B-Pax are progressively apophatic but reserve judgment pending definitive results of his latest MBTI results.

enigmatically and enneagramatically yours,
even as that empty space of his, in his past three posts, is so very .... Buddhist?

never mind ... i get it
pax,
jb

Terri - does what Phil said resonate: " According to Jung's system, the older we get, the more likely we are to be integrating something of our opposite tendencies. " And your postings here, all light-hearted but depthful, at the same time, speak of this individuation process
Yep..what Phil said does resonate. Actually many things said in this thread resonate. Your words here about my posts being light-hearted but depthful hold a part of the "key", if you will, to the very thing Phil posted about integrating something of our opposite tendencies. For me personally, the acceptance of who I am, what I like about myself, what I dislike about myself hinged on giving myself permission TO be lighthearted. I'm not sure if it follows with these tests and studies thereof, but as a younger person, I had a hard time being lighthearted because the hard things of the world seemed to be worth more of my time and thoughts than the lighter things. I think I would even say I felt guilty about being lighthearted in the light of things like...child abuse, homelessness, elder abuse, the lack of love in general between people. And I'm not kidding you, this was from the time I first started school. when the stark reality of seeing a classmate come to school with truly shabby clothes, dirty, malnourished,hit me in the face. To me, it was practically a sin to be lighthearted when I looked around at things. It was only much much later in life (within the last decade or so probably) that I would ALLOW myself the luxury of lightheartedness. I emphasize allow because, in my opinion, that's what it boils down to. We can keep ourselves in utter bondage forever, or we can back up and look at things, see them for what they are, realize there will always be atrocities, do what we can, pray and release it into the hands of the Almighty. Of course, this revolves around my faith, so I'm not sure how that's accounted for in these studies, but for me, my faith and I are one so to try to separate it would only lead to a false "read out" of my psyche...hmmm not sure I said that quite right, but I think you all will understand what I mean..lol.

If I was any more introverted I�d have to ask permission to talk to myself.
Brad!! I have to admit that I really did laugh out loud at this...I can RELATE!! I have hope that you'll land somewhere between running naked through the park and this..lol. The running naked thing might scare the straights and all

This is a reaaaaaally interesting thread. Thank you

Wow. From one INTJ to another: that�s a brilliant insight, Phil. That of course means we are 100% American Males. Damn your feelings, honey, it only matters what the facts are. Ooops. I�ve made that mistake before. [Fonzi]I was rrr� I was rrrr-rrrrrr. I was wrrrrrong.[/Fonzi]

Okay okay...I just had to comment on this . If you change that to...Damn your feelings, honey, it only matters what MY feelings are...then you'd have a 100% female

*watches her back for the ultra feminists*

To think that Jesus' first miracle, at Cana, was changing water into wine --- and who was ever more in touch with the enormity of human suffering, immersed in the immensity of its pain? As a catholic, I have to remind myself that there are 5 joyful and 5 glorious mysteries that go along with the sorrowful. This poem came from a meditation on the sorrowful aspects of the joyful mysteries, a spiritual exercise assigned me on a directed Ignatian retreat. There is an intermingling of joy, even on the Cross, even in abandonment, that doesn't let us stop there but rather moves us on to a trustful surrender, not an abandonment by, but an abandonment to ... into your hands, we commend our spirits O' Lord

Thanks, Terri
pax,
jb

re: I had a hard time being lighthearted because the hard things of the world seemed to be worth more of my time and thoughts than the lighter things. I think I would even say I felt guilty about being lighthearted in the light of things like...child abuse, homelessness, elder abuse, the lack of love in general between people. And I'm not kidding you, this was from the time I first started school. when the stark reality of seeing a classmate come to school with truly shabby clothes, dirty, malnourished,hit me in the face. To me, it was practically a sin to be lighthearted when I looked around at things. It was only much much later in life (within the last decade or so probably) that I would ALLOW myself the luxury of lightheartedness. I emphasize allow because, in my opinion, that's what it boils down to. We can keep ourselves in utter bondage forever, or we can back up and look at things, see them for what they are, realize there will always be atrocities, do what we can, pray and release it into the hands of the Almighty.

re: Okay okay...I just had to comment on this . If you change that to...Damn your feelings, honey, it only matters what MY feelings are...then you'd have a 100% female
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What manner of creature is this? for assuredly, she has completely integrated her animus, too?

Amazing!

pax tibi,
jb

Footnote on Jung from http://www.a-tech.com/joyce/jung.html

The psychological task for men and women is to integrate the contrasexual and bring to awareness the repressed potential it represents. Integration of animus - for women - requires the ego to hold its own against masculine principles and learn to cherish and emphasize the feminine, thereby enabling the animus to become a creative, constructive power for her. Integration of anima for men in the west is to grant space to the anima and recognize such values as relationships, feelings and vulnerability.

- Brad, I've had multiple posts a few times lately, too. It's happened when I've interrupted a send to the board, then re-sent. Apparently, the post gets made, but the notification to sender is what hangs. I'll see what I can learn about this.

---------

This is a good discussion! One thing I've become acutely aware of is how much one's family of origin, one's values, and one's level of hope affects the manifestation of these natural tendencies. You can have an ENFP (the most exuberant of all the types . . . I'm married to one . . . JB knows Lisa and can vouch . . .) who has been severly wounded by shame and fear and thus seem to be somewhat reticent, or even anti-social. When people lack hope, they also tend to be more depressed, and so might seem more introverted. Conversely, you take an Introvert--even an INTJ (the most introverted of all)--who is relatively emotionally healthy, in touch with his/her values, and a person of hope, and in the right circumstances (exclude all chit-chat situations), they'll jabber away almost incessantly.

Indeed, I will go so far as to say that it's not really possible to know one's true psychological type a la Jung until there's a certain psychological stability. Otherwise, it's too hard to know how one's woundedness is affecting one's psyche.

That's where Enneagram might come in handy, however, as our basic compulsions are usually adopted in part as a way to deal with woundedness. And the arrow theory is supposed to show how we become more compulsive, or how we get better. Only . . . those damnable arrows . . . how come they do . . . (oh, never mind!).

Stuck in 5-ville.

Phil

There is an intermingling of joy, even on the Cross, even in abandonment, that doesn't let us stop there but rather moves us on to a trustful surrender, not an abandonment by, but an abandonment to ... into your hands, we commend our spirits O' Lord
YES! I think that was what I learned..the abandonment of not only my life, but my worries TO Him was the only way I could move beyond all of that. I was reading a writing once where the teacher/Pastor made the comment that to hold on to the griefs and worries of the world was 1) to say to God that He couldn't handle it..He wasn't really all powerful and 2) to slap Jesus in the face and call Him a liar. Whoa!..that one stayed with me and reaaally made me think. Was my faith real and complete? Or was it just a word I threw around...you know? That was the beginning of the journey of release for me.
I went to the poem. I had actually seen that before..I believe it was at Advent time, but I'm not sure. At any rate, it touches me in ways that I won't expound on in this particular thread....whole different subject there.
I liked the footnote on Jung. In my experience, the truly strong men are the ones who realize their own vulnerability as well as see it in others while also realizing that it doesn't make them any less masculine to do so...and in the same light, the most womanly women are the ones who recognize their own strength without holding the men hostage to a sense of dependence she has placed on him. I'm not sure that's exactly what that footnote meant..but I figure it's pretty close

One thing I've become acutely aware of is how much one's family of origin, one's values, and one's level of hope affects the manifestation of these natural tendencies.
I would absolutely agree. I have observed, however, that multiple children can come from the same family and be on complete opposite ends of the spectrum on how they mature. I suppose that falls under our own individual personalities?..values?....levels of hope? I have to admit, it confuses me to see a family who has one child that is just hard-working, honest, moral....all that. But the other child expects others to pay their way, steals, and is all around just not very moral or ethical at all. Maybe that goes back to how each child is treated on an individual basis? I'm not sure, but it is definitely a puzzlement to me.

Phil said: Conversely, you take an Introvert--even an INTJ (the most introverted of all)--who is relatively emotionally healthy, in touch with his/her values, and a person of hope, and in the right circumstances (exclude all chit-chat situations), they'll jabber away almost incessantly.

Ladies and gentleman, this man, Phil, has never met me and yet I feel more than just a twinge of recognition. I�m terribly shy in situations that most of you literally wouldn�t think twice about. But put me into those rare corners of comfort and there�s no shutting me up. [I make no claim though to emotional health.] I truly believe I�m an extrovert at heart trapped inside an introvert�s body. Actually it�s more than just a belief. I know this.

I'm coming in a bit late on this, but I am an INFP and I came out a "1" on the Enneagram thingie. That doesn't seem to say much at all, does it? I did the Enneagram thingie twice and it still came out a "1." Oh well.....

Brad, I've been thinking about your comment that tests like these just give people a handy excuse to not face their problems head on. Funny, I questioned Phil about that very thing a couple of weeks ago. I had dug out my Myers Briggs profile because I was actually trying to cut myself a little slack. I'm tired of carrying around so much guilt....I'm tired of beating myself up all the time. At least, when I read my Myers Briggs profile I can understand why I struggle in certain areas. It certainly doesn't allow me to "give up" on myself, but I think it may be helpful in the area of "acceptance." I've never quite been able to figure all that out....I mean, in God's eyes we are "perfect" just as we are, but we are still called to do the work that is needed to improve? Hard to find some middle ground on this, for me anyway. Anybody got a magic potion for taking away guilt for not "being" a certain way.

Funny, I questioned Phil about that very thing a couple of weeks ago.

Anne, if deciding between my advice and Phil�s advice go with Phil�s advice every time (except for computer operating systems).

I had dug out my Myers Briggs profile because I was actually trying to cut myself a little slack. I'm tired of carrying around so much guilt....I'm tired of beating myself up all the time.

I�m with you on this all the way, Anne, and that�s a great perspective you and Phil have on this. I think I�m coming to the same result from a different perspective. To me when we label ourselves we can get stuck in that label and not see who we really are (we�re more than our faults and limitations). What you�re saying is that by using a label you get to know yourself better and thus can relax into who you are. I guess one size doesn�t fit all, eh?

At least, when I read my Myers Briggs profile I can understand why I struggle in certain areas. It certainly doesn't allow me to "give up" on myself, but I think it may be helpful in the area of "acceptance."

I once read that when we have trouble with acceptance the next best thing we can do is accept that we�re resisting acceptance. Does that sound acceptable?