Pauline:

Taking refuge in a facile retort re: the Catholic church's problems resolves nothing, and doesn't even pertain to the topic of TM, as there is corruption among all religious institutions and teachers vested with power. Probably no less for one than the other, which one can either explain as "samsara," or "original sin," take your pick. TM isn't the standard-bearer for Hinduism, but this is a Christian forum where you're simply going to find a certain bias, just as you will among Hindus where there is also going to be presuppositions involved in the discussion.

But more to my real concern:

Even Brad pointed out your arrogance early on, among others as well, and yet you seem to shrug it off like it were a slightly misplaced compliment; it isn't. You have complained about difficult topics being discussed, which is a cheap salvo, since you never participated on those threads - simply chortling at them from a distance, about the distance it takes to condescend. You've been waiting around for others to blossom under your loving gaze, and it just hasn't happened, has it? So all this talk about having an open-hearted discussion just reeks of the entitlement you display.

Please move on to other pastures. I'm sure you'll find some New Age groups like the church you belong to that will help you keep your nest just the way you want it.

Pauline wrote: Contrary to his Catholic Creed,( I believe in ONE God) he apparently allows enough belief in Hindu dieties to be afraid of them, and seems believe they are in part to blame for Catholicims dwindling numbers.

Catholics aren't dwindling in numbers:

quote:

Catholic population slightly up, annual report shows

Vatican, Oct. 25, 2004 (CWNews.com) - The world's Catholic population grew by 9.47 million in 2003, reach a total of 1.07 billion, according to a report released by the Vatican on World Mission Sunday.

The number of Catholics rose fastest in the Americas, where the Church added 6.2 million members. (The Vatican treats North and South America as a single continent for statistical purposes; the vast bulk of that growth came in South America.) Among the world's continents, only Europe saw a loss (of 674,000) in Catholic population

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=32982

Just wanted to set the record straight on that one.

Today at church someone shared this story. A group of 4 Palestinians and 4 Jews just climbed a mountain together never before climbed and called it Friendship Mountain. This is the kind of thing I had hoped might blossom in dialogue Shalom Place after being inspired by the Love Habits thread, but I don't see how it ever will when there is so much attachment to being "right" about things we have had no experience with, or as long as there continues to be anti- this or that kind of news posts here.

That's a sweet story, but you've noticed, no doubt, that it hasn't happened. Different religious perspectives lead to different behaviors. And if the truth be told, here, your frequent resorting to ad-hominem remarks in your post above and all throughout the discussion amply demonstrates this point.

As for the forum . . . if you don't like the content of a particular thread, go to another one, or start one you like. No one has forced you to read and respond to this one. I certainly think a thread on "Evaluating TM" has its place on a board like this, even if you don't happen to agree where I come out with my evaluation.

6. I can see how it may appear that initiation ceremony is deceptive. These ceremonies are part of Hindu culture they do them for many events, sometimes daily,. But having been raised a Catholic, and having a few of those questions go through my head, all I can say is that MAHARISHI KNEW the western world was missing something they needed. He met them in the ignorance and gave it to them. It beats the Crusades the Inquisition and selling indulgences Phil and most mediators are very happy they learned. As there are now 6 million initiated in just 50 years, , we can only conclude that the majority of mediators are satisfied with TM and did not feel it conflicted with their religious beliefs. I don't think Centering Prayer has grown that fast.

Just wanted to be say that this "rebuttal" is a prime examploe of why it's so difficult to dialogue with you about this, Pauline.
A. You pretty much discount the point I made about how offensive it is to require Christians or non-Hindus to undertake a Hindu spiritual ritual.
B. You apologize for Mahesh -- who must know best, of course, and should always be given the benefit of the doubt.
C. You then sieze the moment to find cause to throw out yet more criticisms of Catholicism -- bringing in the "old chestnuts" of the Crusades and the Inquisition (as if we didn't already know how much you dislike the Church)
D. You even take a pot-shot at Centering Prayer before signing off.

All that -- because I dared to suggest that Mahesh Yogi is being dishonest and deceptive for not letting people know in advance about the initiation ceremony. Wow! Maybe you should read my #10 again.

quote:

Originally posted by w.c.:
[qb] Pauline:

Taking refuge in a facile retort re: the Catholic church's problems resolves nothing, and doesn't even pertain to the topic of TM, as there is corruption among all religious institutions and teachers vested with power. Probably no less for one than the other, which one can either explain as "samsara," or "original sin," take your pick. [/qb]

Exactly WC. And that is EXACTLY why it such a waste of time and energy intended for 'spiritual discourse" on pointing out our finite perceptions of the 'samsara' or 'original sins' of others. It only serves to make ourselves feel a very false sense of self-satisfaction. Much more effective in my experience to look inside and at the holes and needs of our own faith tradition.

I have merely been mirroring back to Phil exactly what he was doing from the beginning on this thread.

I must say though, the fact that he started the link with such a fundementalist ananlysis of TM took me my suprise as I fully expected a much more comprehensive, conscious and less susperstitious understanding of the spiritual contribution of other cultures from him, given his education and mass amount of research being done in quantum physics and consciousness today

But more to my real concern:

Even Brad pointed out your arrogance early on, among others as well, and yet you seem to shrug it off like it were a slightly misplaced compliment; it isn't.

You have complained about difficult topics being discussed, which is a cheap salvo, since you never participated on those threads - simply chortling at them from a distance, about the distance it takes to condescend. You've been waiting around for others to blossom under your loving gaze, and it just hasn't happened, has it? So all this talk about having an open-hearted discussion just reeks of the entitlement you display.

Please move on to other pastures. I'm sure you'll find some New Age groups like the church you belong to that will help you keep your nest just the way you want it.


I have not "complained" about difficult topics WC. I have acknowledged my lack of sufficient knowledge to correspond intellegently about political things though. I have questioned the usefulness of some of the style or standards used for spiritual discourse. I fail to see how resorting to pre-judicialn name calling, and making group generaliztions helps anyone to grow spiritually, especially those using them, and it would make others from those groups not feel comfortable sharing.

As far as my relating to others here,in case you haven't noticed WC, Brad has apparently had his fill of SP, but he and I continue to have an honest,compassionate and profoundly creative and healing off-site connection, thank you very much. As far as I am concerned, Brad was the brightest, wisest, bravest, most consistent, thought provoking and compassionate souls here at SP. And for two people with such HUGE political differences to gain such an understanding and respect for one another is nothing short of a miracle in my book.

I once again wish to apologize to you for getting off on the wrong foot with you. I apologized to you and everyone else for my un-timely and inexperienced post on Paradigm Conspiracy. Brad accepted it and tested it, and our sharing blossomed, MM got my drift from the beginning and we had a several long nice exchanges after that. Eric and I have also had a few good exchanges, on site and off site. Soma and I seem to have an intuitive understanding of one another, with his mind being much more abstract then my own. I also was very pleased with my dialogue with Shasha, despite the very different ways we have integrated our eastern experiences. For me there was a mutual respect and honesty of dialogue.

I also apologized to you for being too "over the top" for your personal taste, even though it is ultimately YOUR problem, being that you are a man who thinks that "ALL men are just struggling with getting their horse saddled and really just want to crawl back into their cave, drink beer and watch football" I've notice you have a pattern of making erroneous claims that others share your experience, when needing to support your position. FWIW, it only tends to weaken you position in my book, as it makes you sound very co-dependent.

I apologized a 3rd time to you for calling you on the Mr. Guest thread, when you felt it was your place to tell me my resonse to him was "not appropriate" ..I was not yet familiar with the many nuiances of "cyberspace cults"

I even sent you a poem, one which most people find profoundly insightful.. You have yet to respond with any soulfullness to any of my apologies, and once again, you are now resorting to calling in the support of an imagined "group think" like an insecure little boy, saying "and nobody else here likes you either" as though you are unable to stand on your own inner convictions...( a symptom of the Catholic cult programming by the way) But some people are born with greater gregarious urges then others, and maybe you really do need help getting in the saddle eh WC.? Maybe a beer and football game really is what does it your soul after-all?

But not to worry, I've about had my fill of the spiritual and poltical biasness here at SP too....
I will be eternally grateful for meeting Brad here though...and I have Phil to thank for that.

I wish I could say it's been real with you WC, but that iron man mask of outer authority and the need to feel "in control" of what you cannot control, is just too thick.
It is apparent to me, that you are the one wanting to keep the nest of SP, just the way YOU want it, and that is a real shame. May you and Phil one day come to see the voice and face of Christ lives in everyone, no matter what their beliefs are.

For someone that was not trying to be mean to me, you sure do change your tune a lot

Peace, love and prayer to you anyway WC.

Pauline.

. . . Brad has apparently had his fill of SP, but he and I continue to have an honest,compassionate and profoundly creative and healing off-site connection, thank you very much. As far as I am concerned, Brad was the brightest, wisest, bravest, most consistent, thought provoking and compassionate souls here at SP. . .

I can certainly agree with your affirmation of Brad's good qualities, here, Pauline, but I was unaware that he has "had his fill of SP." That's news to me, and if it's something he shared with you, then I'm sure he didn't intend for you to pass it along -- especially to rebuff w.c., whose relationship with Brad was very positive, from what I observed. Brad has over 5,000 posts on this board regarding countless topics, and I think that says something about how free he felt to express himself here.

I'm closing this thread for awhile now, as it's become mostly contentious and tedious, with little light shed on TM for awhile. If anyone has anything new to share, you can email me and I'll open it for you. Otherwise, I'll re-open it in a couple of months . . . if I remember (someone remind me if I don't).