Meanwhile Phil, I am clearly no Christian History scholar, or any kind of scholar for that matter, and so be aware that I might have an 'un-educated" tendancy to sometimes use certain terms much more loosely then you or others might. So I will humbly take you on your word that I used the term Jewish LAW inappropriatley. Christ was however born a Jew. And the Old Testament from which the prophecies of his coming sprung, are steeped in Jewish culture and tradition. And there fore, it was thr Jewish culture, which He had to relate to in a way they could understand, in order to get His message across.. That was the only point, I was trying to make about God always meeting man in his ignorance, in whatever present concepts of that culture which may not be rooted in Truth.

That one's kind of stuck with me since I read it earlier, and what bothers me are two things:

1. What I wrote earlier about essential distinctions between Christianity and Judaism are not privy only to "Christian History scholars." It's all there in the New Testament, and anyone who's read the Acts of the Apostles will find clear accounts of the split between Christianity and Judaism. Paul also goes into the distinctions in his letters in many places. As the Bible is the best-selling book in the world, I wasn't exactly speaking of matters only known to those who frequent the dusty aisles of university libraries.

2. You have a limited understanding of Christianity if you think Christ's sacrifice was primarily God's way of communicating to Jews in a way they could understand (which was a miserable failure if you put it that way as, well . . . the Jews didn't really "get it.). It's true that there are connections with Judaism's traditions of covenant and sacrifice, but the implications of what happened there go far beyond Judaism, addressing the fallen state of human nature itself, and creating, in Christ, a new beginning for the human race. It's pretty typical of the Hindu perspective to want to view Jesus as only one of countless avatars -- in his case, a Jewish one, who did something extraordinary to get our attention.

WC and Phil..I started experimenting with using Jesus's name as a mantra shortly after being innitiated and have done it from time to time over the years, for anywhere from 1 meditation to a whole week or so...And have no trouble experimening with it again....

And I have also experimented with Eucharist...even going once every day for months while in college. Being a doubting Thomas might have its downfalls, but it is not with out its' rewards once we recognize what trips us up and how we grow. Know Thyself.

But on the whole, what I have found is that doing the mantra as is was given to me, and then praying, seems to take me deeper and make my prayer experience that much deeper..

And so here again you put the Eucharist and the TM mantra side-by-side, with the Eucharist having been tried and found "wanting." But the Eucharist isn't a "method" or "technique" like a mantra, however. Receiving the Eucharist doesn't usually change your brain waves or produce "experiential" effects other than peace and a sense of closeness to Christ (for those who receive Him in faith). It's not like a drug, or a brain-manipulating technique. Rather, it "works" at a level deeper than consciousness can observe, gradually tranforming us through incorporation in Christ's mystical, ascended Body. Through time, there are experiential consequences -- deep inner serenity, self-acceptance, love of God, love of the Christian community, joy, faith, and a desire to continue growing closer to Christ through the Eucharist. In my own case, I literally feel hungry for the Eucharist if I go a few days without receiving; when I receive, there is a sense of completely belonging to Christ, and him to me. This is a unitive experience, though different from the kind you and soma are advocating.

Just wanting to further clarify these points about Christianity and the Eucharist, as it seems you have basic misunderstandings on these topics.

Phil,

You are putting words in my mouth. I was not all equating TM with Eucharist..That is what you read into it because you took it out of context ...once again.

You have also projected conceptual contructs on to me based on your own misconeptions by virtue of your very pre-judicial associations with some thing you have never even experienced. And that in my experience, does not pave the way to higher understanding or build rapore, nor does it feel very Christ-like.

We tend to see and look for things that support our pre-judices Phil, and these last two posts don't speak very highly of the full breath of your dogma or of the Christ-likeness one can gain from Eucharist.

I also asked you to please not to post anything more until I post a longer response which hopefully clarify many of your misconceptions about me and and how I hold my Eastern practice in reference to Chrisitianity.

Please I ask you again, please stop posting until I make my longer post. I can't possibly respond to the article you submitted and all of this and make my meaning clear.

Thank you... Pauline

Pauline, posting in response to content you've already put up is hardly out-of-order, especially for the Board admin.

You said: You are putting words in my mouth. I was not all equating TM with Eucharist..That is what you read into it because you took it out of context ...once again.

I never said you were "equating them," so now it's you putting words in my mouth. But you quite clearly compared one to the other in terms of efficacy earlier, when you wrote:
It seems to me that If the Eucharist had any power in and of itself, with out the need for having faith in it, than we wouldn't have pedophile priests, the Mafia or so many addictions in the faithful. Mantra's on the other hand, in my experience with them are empirical in nature, they work to purify whether we believe in them or know what they mean or not. The primordial sound healing techniques work on the same level.

The phrase, on the other hand, indicates that a comparison is being made.

Then, later, you wrote: And I have also experimented with Eucharist...even going once every day for months while in college. Being a doubting Thomas might have its downfalls, but it is not with out its' rewards once we recognize what trips us up and how we grow. Know Thyself.

But on the whole, what I have found is that doing the mantra as is was given to me, and then praying, seems to take me deeper and make my prayer experience that much deeper..

So there you are saying that the mantra takes you deeper, which implies a comparison (deeper than what? The Eucharist.) If you didn't mean to be doing so, or to be saying that mantras were more efficacious than the Eucharist, then you really can't blame me entirely for perceiving things that way.

You have also projected conceptual contructs on to me based on your own misconeptions by virtue of your very pre-judicial associations with some thing you have never even experienced. And that in my experience, does not pave the way to higher understanding or build rapore, nor does it feel very Christ-like.

You'll have to be more specific than that. What did I misconstrue? And drop the bit about how whether I come across Christ-like or not. That's kind of feedback has no influence on me, but seems manipulative and bordering on ad-hominem.

We tend to see and look for things that support our pre-judices Phil, and these last two posts don't speak very highly of the full breath of your dogma or of the Christ-likeness one can gain from Eucharist.

That one IS ad hominem.

I've not been disrespectful in any way, but I am pressing you hard on some of your opinions, for I think there are some important issues on the floor, here. If you don't want that kind of engagement from me, then I'll back off. I'm not exactly short on things to do.

You're not equating them?

"And so here again you put the Eucharist and the TM mantra side-by-side, with the Eucharist having been tried and found "wanting." But the Eucharist isn't a "method" or "technique" like a mantra, however. "
****************************************

What do you call that Phil???

My response to your comparisons . . . an attempt to clarify why comparing them is ludicrous.

I wasn't comparing them..YOU implied that...I was merely reporting a sequence of events..

I explained above why you give every impression of comparing. Re-read my post above to see what I said, and tell me what I've misunderstood. Saying that the mantra takes you deeper (than the Eucharist which you'd just been speaking of) is clearly a comparison - - even a kind of judgment of one against the other. I noted another indication of comparison as well.

If you didn't mean to be comparing them and evaluating one against the other in terms of efficacy in your own life, then it's not clear why you wrote as you did, for you give every impression of doing so rather than "reporting a sequence of events." I'm willing to accept that you didn't mean to convey what I perceived you to have done, but I'm not willing to concede that I misinterpreted what you wrote.

Trying to clarify any of the above posts will only serve to become an endless stream of more missed communication, until I make my longer post. Our time and energy can be better spent I think.

The mind divides, our hearts unify. It's our hearts and the unity in diversity which I came to SP discover, explore, share and celebrate.
That's where the sacrament lies for me anyway.

Eventually I hope to post
something different, and
other than better than, 'the host'
just another way of 'making sacred.'

The Value of Transcendental-Ness is
is simple, easy, peaceful purification ...
melting Eons of Mental-Minded-Mess.

Love, Peace and Joy, Pauline

When we come closer to our spiritual role models, we come closer to all, and vice a versa; when we come closer to all, we come closer to our role models. Pauline has chosen Christ as her savior and is working on expanding her mind and seeing the all-pervading Christ consciousness working in life. She has found some techniques that calm and expand her mind so she can love Christ with all her heart. Incomplete love for Christ means we lack understanding because when we understand something we love it completely. In complete love there is an element of our consciousness that unites us with the love object in deep understanding. This love attraction needs to be refined and purified through constant contemplation, I think that is what Pauline is doing with great success. I think her TM meditation is helping her to know and identify with the same source of existence as Christ because it is helping her become aware of the principle of God's pure consciousness dwelling in all things. One doesn't just unite with gross matter as if eating the food we love but one's every potential becomes activated in Christ consciousness, and the whole man or woman is born again in the consciousness united with everything. This is how God enters our human reality, and we become whole or holy. If she is having success, I applaud her and her spiritual achievement. It no way threatens my spiritual experience or the way of the cross. Ralph Emerson had trancendental experiences and I think they made him a better Christian on a deeper level. I love his writing.

soma, aside from "rescuing" Pauline from the conundrum she's come to on this thread, I'm wondering if you have any substantive comments about the thread topic? Do you think it's a good idea for Christians to be meditating on the names of Hindu divinities? Any possible dangers in opening oneself up spiritually to "higher consciousness?"

Ralph Emerson had trancendental experiences and I think they made him a better Christian on a deeper level. I love his writing.

I like his writing, too, but I don't think he would have considered himself a Christian. Didn't he found the Unitarian Church? I could be wrong . . . will do some research on it.

quote:

Originally posted by soma:

[qb] When we come closer to our spiritual role models, we come closer to all, and vice a versa; when we come closer to all, we come closer to our role models. [/qb]

I find this very true Soma. And it makes my heart sing to hear you are finding this true also. Cultural and intellectual differences and divisions are increasingly seen and experienced by me as just pre-judicial contructs of the mind, (my own included) Concepts of security, power, fear etc, .. inherited through our family, culture, even our genes(the hardest to change) I am still in process though of dissolving all these.

It's the process that is so exciting and mysterious to me. Noticing them come up, so as to make their presence known, then choosing to keep them if they allow me to serve myself or others, in some way, or letting them go. It's almost like a slow motion picture at times of what people describe as "their life passing before their eyes' when dying. Only there is no fear or dread of loss..just "Oh, that's interesting, that's all that was"

Ultimately, it does not really matter to me HOW we reach this awareness,or natural unfolding, only that as many souls reach it, as soon as possible. The purest role and only real goal of relgion in society is to teach spiritual principles, practices and truths that allow and ensure the individual souls ablity to grow in increaing autonomy, and to trust in their own God-given faculties of intuition and discernment. I am finding that Truth naturally and spontaneouly unfolds upon itself when we really begin to tap into it from the core of our being. Every moment becomes increasinly sacred, a deepening step into trust and connection with others, and a potential new revelation when we lived in love, or at least the intention to love.

[qb] Ralph Emerson had trancendental experiences and I think they made him a better Christian on a deeper level. I love his writing. [/qb][/QUOTE]

I haven't read Emerson in years but loved him when I did. Maybe I should revisit him. I am not very well read compared to others here. For a long time, I'd rather be dancing, singing, or in Nature. But lately I find writing increasingly satisfying.

Thanks for posting Soma. Looking forward to hearing more from you, especially about your own journey.

Peace, Love and Joy, Pauline

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] soma, aside from "rescuing" Pauline from the conundrum she's come to on this thread, I'm wondering if you have any substantive comments about the thread topic? [/qb]

Phil it's interesting you would choose to "label" (which is a form of pre-judice in my book) two souls trying to express a rapore of experiential understanding, as one trying to "rescue" the other. I don't feel I am in a conundrum at all, just a bit daunted by what seems to be a huge gap between OUR experiential understanding. I am simply taking my time, as you invited me to do, to address the good, the bad and the ugly in the some what pre-judiced link you posted at the beginning of this disussion. When one seeks division, one shall surely find it.

[qb] Do you think it's a good idea for Christians to be meditating on the names of Hindu divinities? [QB][/qb]

This is a perfect example I what I mean about mental constructs Phil. There is ultimately but ONE God, the God of Love, any other so called "deities" are to me, and always have been to me, but mental projections, mental constructs of experience, much like a myth. They are only REAL in minds of those who BELIEVE they exist. And this maybe where some people who venture into eastern religions get in trouble. The movie "Beautiful Mind" demonstates well the power our beliefs can have over our reality. It is also why it is important to "Know Thyself". If we know we have a stong tendancy toward BELIEF as opposeed to a more sceptical orientation to life, then,yes, one should be careful about which spiritual waters they swim in.

[qb] Any possible dangers in opening oneself up spiritually to "higher consciousness?" [QB][/qb][/QUOTE]

I would love to hear your comments about this too Soma.

. . .When one seeks division, one shall surely find it.

Oh, come now, Pauline, I'm not seeking division or unity, only understanding. How disingenuous to impute that kind of motive to the questions I was raising about your dissing of Christianity and your comparison of the efficacy of the Eucharist vs. mantras. Those are substantive issues, to which you haven't really replied except to say that I misunderstood you, I wasn't being nice or Christian, I was being judgmental, projecting my "stuff," etc. No division was sought or perpetrated on my part, but obviously some does exist between us on these points. So be it; that's where things are.

There is ultimately but ONE God, the God of Love, any other so called "deities" are to me, and always have been to me, but mental projections, mental constructs of experience, much like a myth. They are only REAL in minds of those who BELIEVE they exist. And this maybe where some people who venture into eastern religions get in trouble.

You might be right about this in your case, but notice that the thread is posing the question in a general sense -- e.g. those who use these names with the intent of seeking inner peace. There is a connection between name and entity, as quotes I've shared from even Maharishi noted. Why do you give him such a "pass" on this deception?

I also shared how everyone I know who's had formal TM training ended up drifting away from Christianity to New Age and Eastern teachers. That's quite telling as well, imo, even if only anecdotal.

Here are concerns voiced by a Catholic Cardinal

You might also note that the U. S. courts consider TM to be a religion and not simply a meditation technique. Why?

quote:

The basic argument of the plaintiffs was that students enrolled in TM courses, beging taught in the public schools, constituted indoctrination in Hindu religious concepts and forced them to take part in a Hindu prayer ceremony as a part of their initiation into the class. Based on the Establishment Clause, it is inappropriate for a publically funded institution to endorse a religion or use prayer as part of the curricula. The TM course was being taught in such a way as to make parents concerned that their children were being taught TM concepts that were based on the "truth."

The allegation that instruction in TM constituted the teaching of religion was strongly denied by the defense for Transcendental Medition. The court, however, found in favor of the plaintiffs based on the opinion that TM was indeed a religion. In this case, the court relied primarily on the contents of the textbook used in the course which stated, among other things, that the Science for Creative Intelligence, which TM meditators "tap into" using the TM technique, is "the universal basis of life" and the "source, course and goal of all existence" 23.

from: http://religiousmovements.lib....nia.edu/nrms/tm.html

From the perspective of Christian understanding on the spiritual live, the Creative Intelligence we call God is not something we can "tap into" using a technique. What TM is actually "tapping into" might be an interesting discussion, however.

Phil,

When I am seeking understanding about something, I find it more helpful to ask questions, rather then coming up with all kinds of seeming contradictions to and about the nature of that which I am trying to understand.
That,has a way of closing doors of possible connection with the person trying to explain the very thing you say you are trying to understand.

It might be helpful, interesting and harmonious if you at some point were to ask me HOW TM or Amma, has enhanced my experience and understanding scripture? Eucharist? the Church? service ?
instead of finding time consuming articles by those who have never even tried it, why it is "bad" or threatening to the Church.

I am not avoiding the links, but they are rather overwhelming and biased

Just an alternative way of learning.

Dear Pauline, you made some statements about Christianity, the Eucharist and mantras and I responded to what you wrote. That's par for the course on a discussion forum.

But, sure, let's hear how TM has helped you on your Christian journey. Like I've shared, the people I know who've used TM have pretty much gone over to New Age kinds of spiritualities, so it would be good to hear other testimonials (you've already shared a good bit on this, btw). I'd be especially interested in hearing how you distinguish between the brainwave effects caused by the mantra and the movement of the Holy Spirit when you have the time.

The links are just background references. You mentioned earlier that Fundamentalist Christians were the ones objecting to TM, so I posted critiques from other sources as well so you would know that the concerns are from a larger group.

Unity of everything in God is not a new concept, but we must open up to it to make it effective so it can change our lives, making us aware that our bodies are in harmony with Him, and His power is within. God flows through every atom of our being fortifying, energizing and renewing, but we are not aware of it. Embracing and identifying with unity, B]instead of our minds[/B] easily opens our being to the influx of new ideas, new thoughts, new people, and the new situations that come into our experience. I think Our Lord Jesus Christ if chosen as one's savior is presenting these new things to us to bring us closer to him, Christ Consciousness, where he can guide us even further.

I see the mantra as a tool to get beyond the mind, to keep the mind busy repeating the mantra so the meditator can witness the mind doing this and eventually start to witness not the mind, but God, the Holy Spirit and Christ in action.Our mind seems to lead us one way and Our Lord another. I feel this can help what Christians call witnessing. I think some minds need Christian symbols to concentrate on while others need more abstract images to get beyond the mind.

It is not only with the cruder forms of life that we are linked, as human beings, we are moving together with other spiritual beings in a long continuous ascent and are not in ourselves a finality. We need each other, Christ, Christian symbols and any spiritual tool we can get to get beyond gravity, which keeps pulling us down to earth. God is everywhere even here on earth, but we have to get beyond the mind and witness to see this.

In the beatitudes Jesus is saying see me in the homeless, when I am hungrey feed me, naked cloth me ect. Isn't it nice to have spiritual tools to see God in our children, spouses and the people we work with by giving the mind something to remove the emotions so we can love and be loved. I see the mantra as only one of many tools for this. The rosary is also a tool and it keeps the body and mind occupied, but I think the choice is up to the individual.

Jesus said, "Let thy will be done." Let pure consciousness flow through me so the cosmic play can unfold naturally. This is one way that Jesus escaped this nervous, dusty, fever infested planet. This same escape is within us, but first, we must realize that we are pure consciousness and not the body.

There are many elevated beings who have reached beyond the mind and they are not members of any particular faith alone, but are spiritual aspirants from all faiths and denominations. The thing that distinguishes them from other people is their understanding of the nature of their souls and their knowledge. They obtain compassion for others and develop communion with everything in the God's all-pervading consciousness that surrounds us. Let us learn from them so we can be even better deciples of Christ.

Other Christian denominations get on the Catholics for praying to the saints and Mother Mary, but we see it as a way to talk to God. There is only one God and He is everywhere so a different name or sound to get His attention is not important. Jesus is talking to us in everything, we just need to hear what he is saying.

Good post, soma. You seem to speak from a depth of spiritual experience on this and other topics.

I would like to question you further about the following, however.

quote:

I see the mantra as a tool to get beyond the mind, to keep the mind busy repeating the mantra so the meditator can witness the mind doing this and eventually start to witness not the mind, but God, the Holy Spirit and Christ in action.Our mind seems to lead us one way and Our Lord another. I feel this can help what Christians call witnessing. I think some minds need Christian symbols to concentrate on while others need more abstract images to get beyond the mind.

It is not only with the cruder forms of life that we are linked, as human beings, we are moving together with other spiritual beings in a long continuous ascent and are not in ourselves a finality. We need each other. . .

I agree that the witnessing self is not the end of the journey, but it seems that's about as far as it goes with TM. No? Speaking of "tapping into" a level of consciousness is still within the human realm, imo -- even if a very deep and spiritual level.

The way you speak of mantra makes sense to me, and I can go along with that. But I don't think you responded to the concern voiced by me (and the other web sites cited) to the effect that the way one's brain/mind is vibrated by the mantra when invoking Hindui deities creates a hospitable environment for the attachment and even indwelling of astral/disincarnate beings. I don't think this concern is unwarranted, as there have been individuals even on this board who've shared how they eventually encountered resistance from these beings once they set upon the Christian journey.

You also seem to have the view that all these subtle beings are moving toward God. I disagree with that, somewhat from experience of my encounters with them, but also (especially) from what the Scriptures and Church teachings say about them. They are not all good, nor are they all moving in any kind of ascent toward God. There are fallen beings working against the reign of God as well; Christ himself taught us about this.

You, Pauline, and others might disagree with me on those two points, but I don't think you've countered them convincingly.

I feel Jesus had the ultimate experience with God consciousness and his consciousness was interchangeable with God�s. He is beyond the normal mundane world of time and space and is the living expression of God's pure consciousness where everyone can find fulfillment. Jesus said, �I and the Father are one.� This is where the formless becomes visible and the pure consciousness of God becomes expressed in the unit consciousness of an individual in the form of Christ consciousness.

I think the Christian�s consciousness of acceptance that there is one God and that He created all things is a conceptual truth that can free the mind to think of God all the time because it relaxes the emotions so we can praise everything as good because it came from God. This kind of encounter Jesus revealed to be the key to reality, a connection to God or pure consciousness that has the ability to bring into physical being that which is spiritual and ultimately real. Jesus� words were not meant to be an end in themselves, but a vehicle to lead a person to encounter the all-pervading God that is beyond the grasp of the mind and all words.

I don't view the mantra as the name of a diety, but as a vehicle to raise the mind to a spiritual consicousness. Consciousness, spiritual ect are very abstract and the mind can't grasp them so people use a concrete diety to help them underestand. I use Jesus Christ as my tangenital point between the physical and spiritual. I can pour my emotions into Jesus, love, compassion, undertanding ect. so they are channeled into a spiritual experience. I think a problem might be where people fragment the tangenital point to many points between the physical and spiritual so the emotions become scattered.

In my case I have narrowed everything down to one God so when someone is teaching, explaining, even making me angry, I try to see Jesus as the instructor showing me my weak or strong points. I think Pauline is using the mantra very wisely and it is deeping her faith, and I am sure many left to pursue Hindu philosophy after feeling a little high from the technique, but I look on it as a growing experience that will make them stronger and even better Christians when they return. They also might have left because they were driven out of their church by unfair accusations. I see spiritual practices can help one understand one's nature, but they can also trap one in the mind similar to a drug that heals, but can also addict.
I have read Tagore's poems and Rumi's I am sure they wrote them about their God or diety, but they make me high because I see them written about my God or Christ.

In summary I don't think the mantra is at fault, but the ideology of the user. Too bad they don't come with a manual to explain the dangers.

. . .I am sure many left to pursue Hindu philosophy after feeling a little high from the technique, but I look on it as a growing experience that will make them stronger and even better Christians when they return.

When they return? You're certainly confident about that, it seems. What seems to be the case is that many do not return, thinking they've found something better.

You didn't really respond to my point about there being not just good spirits out there in the spirit realm. . .

quote:

I feel Jesus had the ultimate experience with God consciousness and his consciousness was interchangeable with God�s. He is beyond the normal mundane world of time and space and is the living expression of God's pure consciousness where everyone can find fulfillment. Jesus said, �I and the Father are one.� This is where the formless becomes visible and the pure consciousness of God becomes expressed in the unit consciousness of an individual in the form of Christ consciousness.

Not exactly what Christians believe about the Incarnation, but that's not our thread topic.

quote:

I don't view the mantra as the name of a diety, but as a vehicle to raise the mind to a spiritual consicousness.

You are mistaken in the first part of this statement, and the second is highly debatable as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:

When they return? You're certainly confident about that, it seems. What seems to be the case is that many do not return, thinking they've found something better.
************************************************

Different souls may need different things at different times , some of which might go beyond our finite understanding. Gods ways can be much bigger then the four walls of the Church. And as far as the sacraments go, if your friends are discovering ways of "making sacred" that suit them better at this time, then why not wish them well?

Why all the worry and concern about something you cannot control...There is a higher power at play you know?

Even the father of the prodigal son, gave his son all his due when he asked for it and gave him his blessing. And when he returned, he threw a big party for him !!! which made the other son jealous, most likely questioning his own sense of duty, the opposite of jeaolosy in my book.

We never got the story about the prodigal daughter,. Women were too oppressed back then to even have a choice. And that is what I think is going on right now, the feminine principle in women and men is being awakened, coming fully into consciousness..and slowly being integrated. There's a lot of change going on here on this earth plane right now... integrated. Hence the growth of inner practices, yoga.

Faith in God also means having faith that God is working in your brothers and sisters wherever they are called as well. God might have plans for them that none of us can yet fully understand, but there is a gentle deep knowingness that is right for us, right now.

"As above, so below"

"Thy kingdom come thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"

It's possible that it is the Church that is needing to stretch a little.... Certainly the closures and the cover-ups suggest that not all is as it seems.

quote:

I don't view the mantra as the name of a diety, but as a vehicle to raise the mind to a spiritual consciousness.

You are mistaken in the first part of this statement, and the second is highly debatable as well. [/QB]

Phil, you think he is mistaken because you and apparently the Church fathers believe other deities are real. Consider that primitive people worshipped Fire,Volcanoes, Sun, Water, Bears, Wolves..etc. Hindus,a culture known for distinguishing the much finer levels of experiences..with sound, at an earlier time in history, called this sounds and impulses Gods...

But think what you are suggesting Phil. that a sound is a God? Yes, they stimulate consciousness, in the same way a C note and G note do.. They open doors of perception to finer and finer levels of reality or nature. PLay C and G in different ways, tempos combinations and you get an entirely different feeling or experience. But they have no consciousness in and of themselves...they have no voliition or will...

History demonstates that what we don't understand we either fear or worship....(which is why there are so many addictions.) But once the true nature of anything is understood, our knowledge of it is properly integrated into our consciousnss, but the conscioussness has to come first.

"Knowledge is structures in consciousness"

Just think about that...Reflect on your own life.
From believing in Santa Claus, to a God with a Flowing White Beard...to watching your children grow....

As our consciousness of anything increases, our knowledge of them changes. That has been true thoughout Church history. (I won't go into the changes because you might take my examples as me criticizig the Church.) Rather, my intention is to suggest that 'the consciousness that forms the knowledge which has changed Church doctrine over time, comes AFTER consciousness changes, not before.

Given then huge life enhancing changes that I and many other eastern practioners have gone through, compared to many that stayed strictly within the Church, I think it's much healtier, more respectful and demonstrates more faith in God s love and grace if we trust that everyone is doing what we were meant to do..unless it's harming life in some way.

It is a "possibilty " that you don't have the whole picture either, you know?

Peace, love and joy, Pauline

Krishna is a diety, but I have heard other mantras that are not. On the highway to God there are many exits, people get off the path for many reasons, but I am sure they will return sooner or later. I feel we can talk about the sideroads forever because there are so many going in different directions, but only the highway is worth taling about.

There are negative spirits and things, but I don't like to give them energy. The fundamental Christians talk about Satan more than Our Lord.I don't think the Hindu dieties are negative or evil. Some of their stories are enlightening.

During the day we certainly encounter problems, but we are not going to thrive by dwelling on these negatives either. Mentally or physically such self-indulgence only brings on headaches, heartaches and trouble. We only need to become stronger and overcome the obstacles at hand and direct our thoughts to happiness rather than unhappiness by looking at the whole picture. The solution is not to condemn one negative over another; each is necessary and a vital force for all the possibilities of the macrocosm to become actualized. In the absence of these opposites, the positive and negative, the universe could not hold together and would cease to exist. To go beyond these polarities is to realize Christ consciousness and what I feel Jesus was trying to communicate to us. We must rise above the disconnected, the dissociated and become unified with the whole.

My main point about these "deities" is not that they are really God or that they have any equivalents to what Christians profess, but that they could very well be high spiritual beings who don't necessarily move in the same direction as Christ.

On the highway to God there are many exits, people get off the path for many reasons, but I am sure they will return sooner or later.

I am not so sure as you are about that, soma.

The solution is not to condemn one negative over another; each is necessary and a vital force for all the possibilities of the macrocosm to become actualized. In the absence of these opposites, the positive and negative, the universe could not hold together and would cease to exist.

Your neo-gnostic stripes are showing more clearly than ever, here. The "negative" forces I'm referring to are not a metaphysical or cosmological necessity.

To go beyond these polarities is to realize Christ consciousness and what I feel Jesus was trying to communicate to us. We must rise above the disconnected, the dissociated and become unified with the whole.

The "consciousness of Christ" is right there in the midst of the struggles of daily life, soma. Increasingly, what I hear from you is something akin to what the early Christian gnostics described, and what the Jesus Seminar people now champion. I'm not denying that you've come to a liberating experience, but I think it's more in the genre of enlightenment than Christian mysticism.

And Pauline . . . Why all the worry and concern about something you cannot control...There is a higher power at play you know?

That's feels so condescending, along with several other points in your post above.

Apparently you and soma don't think the concerns I've raised are warranted. Fine. You two can go ahead and continue doing the Maharishi two step, but I'm done dialoguing with you both about this topic.

Phil,

I am sorry you took my meaning that way Phil. I find it a little amusing that both you and WC have experienced me this way, because most of my freinds think I need to be more assertive. But they have told me, I can be rather tenacious.

I must admit though, I am curious how it is condenscending to ask another to consider "why" they are so concerned or worried about something they cannot control?

I always find it helpful for another journeying soul to ask me to reflect on such questions. Asking the right questions are what help me get to deeper levels of faith and to clarify my intentions.

Being condenscending, imo, would be more like one making presumptions based on belief, that their way of approaching a topic or issue is the correct and the only way to look at it, and then letting their presumption color everything they talk about.

I'm sorry you feel the need to close the door Phil, but no sweat. I've always found when one door closes, another opens. Experiences that looked to me like 'God was closing some doors' were what originally redirected me to a more regular practice of TM in the first place, and that has opened lots of doors for me.

Soma:.

Yes I find focusing on the positive very important too, while at the same time embracing and accepting the negative...both in ourselves and others. Certainly we all at times express more negative energies and emotions.. like impatience, anger, criticim, fear, selfishness.. I find the more I stay focussed on the positive, the happier I am and the easier it is to focus on the positive and draw it out of other people.
There's a sort of alchemy to it.

And certainly in soceity there are vast extremes of dfferences in how these are expressed, from mere annoyance to murderous rage..or anger turned in on oneself as can be the case with addiction. Nipping something like annoyance in the bud of it's inception, by identifying what it really is that is making us annoyed helps a lot to say focuss on the positive.

I find this need for balance between extremes to be true with virtues too. I know people for instance, who are extremely 'generous" to a fault. I myself have done this, but I have also been thougt of as being very selfish according to other peoples standards. For instance, there were many times I chose to meditate and pray for an hour, or take long walks in the woods, instead of playing cards with my family at Christmas. They thought this was selfish of me, maybe even narcistic. But I felt, (knew really) that I was choosing the thing my soul most needed to feel and stay balanced with in, especially while home for Xmas.

So I very much resonate with this idea of finding balance between the polarities within ourselves. And I too think this is what Christ did,.or maybe he was born that way, but I thnk he had to learn, just like the rest of us. I think that is why He had the affect on people He did. The few times he was negitive or critical, it was directed at the Scribes and Pharisees, for using the dogma or laws of his day to try to prove him wrong.

Maybe starting thread about balancing the opposites might spark some interesting discussions here. I have a great book about it."Rays of the Dawn" Part of a Concept Therapy text.

About Krishna: I don't know what it is about the Hindu culture that makes the forms and stories so hard for me to think of them as real..I've always thought of them as myth and it wasn't until I was practising TM for about 10 years, that I even met people who talked about them. It was kind of a no-no in the movement, and still is, but loosened up a lot as all moveements do. None of the people I knew thought of them as Gods either.

I have since then met Hindu's who believe Krishna is real and have had visions of him. I've always thought that people who have visions in any tradition, are people who either have very strong imaginations and focuss, or their inner eye has been opened. And hearing the experiential stories here at SP, I've seen lots of similar characteristics to peoples' experiences, no matter which culture or tradition they are part of.....They just manifest differently depending on what the focus of their attention is on.

Maharishi used to emphasize not being attached to our expereinces. Good or Bad. Just have the experience and let it go, don't be attached,
don't try to recapture them.

quote:

Originally posted by Virya108 /Pauline:
[qb]
I must admit though, I am curious how it is condenscending to ask another to consider "why" they are so concerned or worried about something they cannot control? . . . Being condenscending, imo, would be more like one making presumptions based on belief, that their way of approaching a topic or issue is the correct and the only way to look at it, and then letting their presumption color everything they talk about.

I'm sorry you feel the need to close the door Phil, but no sweat. . . [/qb]

Closing the door only only the TM discussion, which isn't really going anywhere, imo.

This is a somewhat clumsy medium for communication, and so I know how difficult it is to express oneself without conveying the wrong message. In the absence of non-verbal cues, one is left only with the written word, and something of the "spirit" it conveys.

So here are a few things that seem condescending:

Different souls may need different things at different times , some of which might go beyond our finite understanding. Gods ways can be much bigger then the four walls of the Church.

D'oh, Pauline You seem to think you're talking to a child and so must point out the most elementary facts. Like these . . .

Why all the worry and concern about something you cannot control...There is a higher power at play you know?

I DO know.

Faith in God also means having faith that God is working in your brothers and sisters wherever they are called as well. . . .

Yes, yes, yes. Would you PLEASE talk about TM, now?

Just think about that...Reflect on your own life.
From believing in Santa Claus, to a God with a Flowing White Beard...to watching your children grow....

Gee, I never thought of that. Reflect on my life? What a novel idea! Perhaps I shall give it a go sometime, since you recommend it.

Maybe you see the condescension? Unintended, I'm sure, but you might keep in mind that you're not talking to a total dork.

Given then huge life enhancing changes that I and many other eastern practioners have gone through, compared to many that stayed strictly within the Church, I think it's much healtier, more respectful and demonstrates more faith in God s love and grace if we trust that everyone is doing what we were meant to do..unless it's harming life in some way.

OK, fine, but those aren't very sound principles for discernment, imo. "Doing no harm" isn't exactly the criterion used to discern where Christ is found, and isn't. Something can look and feel good for awhile, but slowly lead one away from Christ in the long run.

quote:

Originally posted by soma:
[qb] . The solution is not to condemn one negative over another; each is necessary and a vital force for all the possibilities of the macrocosm to become actualized. In the absence of these opposites, the positive and negative, the universe could not hold together and would cease to exist. To go beyond these polarities is to realize Christ consciousness and what I feel Jesus was trying to communicate to us. We must rise above the disconnected, the dissociated and become unified with the whole. [/qb]

An after thought:

Could you share a bit more about what you meant about going beyond the polarities..What it transates to in regards to war, poverty,polotics crime, social problems etc.

I am assuming we are talking about the same things on a personal level and selfless service seems the final destination for any soul reaching for the highest..but if you could elaborate a bit more, I'd appreceate hearing about it

And what you say above makes me wonder what might happen if WE ALL went behyond the polarities at the same time?

It's not likelyto happen, but interesting to ponder, if what you say is true... I just want to make sure I am following your full meaning.