If Christianity hasn't worked for me after 67 yrs. is it o.k. to try Buddhism? Or would I go to you know where?

What does it mean that it "hasn't work"? What were your expectations and in what way reality is different from them?

Katy, what do you find in Buddhism that isn't present in Christianity? And, echoing Mt's question, what's "not working" mean? My guess is it's some struggle with church?

Mt and Phil,

I'm just feeling attracted to Buddhism lately.. not that I would not have Jesus as my Lord, but I feel much of Buddhist thought would help me to feel more peaceful, and be more fitting for my personality.

And yes, the institutional church needs another major reformation, in my opinion.

Hi Katy,

Nice to hear from you...

What you're saying about Buddhist thought being more fitting to your personality sounds very interesting. I know you've shared that you are an "HP," highly sensitive person, although I'm sure that's not all there is to your personality.

What exactly about Buddhist thought feels more suited to your personality? Or, another way of putting it: What about Christianity is lacking to meet your unique needs?

Peace,

Shasha

Being an HSP, (but like you said, that is not all that is to me :-), I am a deep thinker, intuitive, introverted, more interested in "being", rather than "doing".

My needs are not met in the organized church.. I suppose THAT is it.. church is boring.. the catholic as well as the non-catholic.. I have tried many.. Oh, a few were great...they didn't just go thru the motions, and they gave the "meat" of the word, unlike most Sunday sermons... but they are hard, if not impossible to find these days.. What happened to Vatican II? Things got better for a while; now they're worse again.

Now if I could go to mass with Richard Rohr officiating.. LOL, that might be different.... oh for the good old days.

Hope this helps...


It's complicated.

I understand what you say about the celebration of the Eucharist in churches. Personally, I try to deal with that in three ways:

1) the whole of the Church reflects the human nature deified. Because our nature is broken, most of churches can be "boring" and sermons uninteresting or plain wrong, even hateful. Some churches, however, provide beautiful liturgy, although even there I find some things that I don't like. It's like our condition - we can be holy and beautiful, but most of the time we tend to be really boring and annoying ;-)

2) a Sunday mass is a strange thing, because it is an assembly of people so different according to their intelligence, personality, temperament, preferences etc. It's not possible to satisfy all. My "idea" sermon would be probably boring or to abstract for others, and what I find annoying might be perfect for my neighbour in the row. So I stopped wishing for the impossible, but I have some good churches around and I think it's better for me to go there than to the places where I don't feel comfortable. On the other hand - isn't it marvellous, that God organizes a feast where everyone can be fed, despite of their differences? Not only contemplatives need God's closeness and power.

3) I try to detach from my "feelings" during Eucharist. I had many powerful experiences in which God showed me that he's present in the host, in his words, in the liturgy etc. Usually, it is at church I receive most of contemplative graces and my kundalini movements are far more intense than at home or outdoors, even in beautiful places. So I had many "pointers" that I understand as if God said: "I'm present even in the most boring and annoying liturgy, so - go there!". But there are times when I don't feel anything unusual, just more calm and peace when being at church, and then I rely on my faith, that he is present there, despite what I feel or not feel.

It reminds me of a friend of mine who once told me that she goes to kundalini yoga classes and shamanism, because there she feels the "presence of the Spirit", and when she attended a mass during Easter, she found out that "the church was totally devoid of the Spirit, there was nothing there". I was surprised, since I during every Easter I'm practically flooded with mystical experiences during liturgy. So experiences can be quite different, don't you think?

I can see that you find churches boring or annyoing, and I wonder if you rely on your faith about the special manner of God's presence there? Or you just don't believe that sacraments are privileged with regard to God's power?

Thank you Mt for your comments... I am not annoyed nor angry or anything at the church.. (altho I don't agree with a lot) just don't, never did actually, "get anything out of it", except at a few churches/groups I used to attend.

All I know is I just don't feel comfortable, and in fact feel too different.... there are other reasons too which I don't feel I should get into here.. like I said it's complicated.

Yes, the church I used to go to, even though I didn't like everything about it, I often felt God's presence in a way I didn't when at home, or elsewhere.

I see what you are saying, and I mostly agree, but under the circumstances I can not and do not participate much in any organized church.

Did any of this make sense. :-)

Katy, it surely is difficult when one's community is dead, but . . . Buddhism? Have you found a lively, Spirit-filled Buddhist community with good preaching a la Richard Rohr? I'm sort of joking with you here, I hope you know.

For me, it doesn't matter if the priest is a good preacher or not. I quit expecting that from them years ago. Even in the best of circumstances, the Sunday homily is inadequate for adult education and formation. That's why we have books, workshops, retreats, discussion boards, etc. I appreciate the opportunity to gather with other Christians for public worship, and to receive our Lord in the Eucharist. It doesn't much matter to me if the liturgy is done well or the parish has a lot going on, though it's certainly nice when they do. Jesus is present in the gathered assembly and the Sacrament, and that's what I go to encounter.

Do you have a spiritual director? What you're sharing about here would be a great topic to take to spiritual direction and to explore more deeply. It could be a call to some deeper level of faith . . . could also be that the devil is messing with you.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Katy, it surely is difficult when one's community is dead, but . . . Buddhism? Have you found a lively, Spirit-filled Buddhist community with good preaching a la Richard Rohr? I'm sort of joking with you here, I hope you know.

For me, it doesn't matter if the priest is a good preacher or not. I quit expecting that from them years ago. Even in the best of circumstances, the Sunday homily is inadequate for adult education and formation. That's why we have books, workshops, retreats, discussion boards, etc. I appreciate the opportunity to gather with other Christians for public worship, and to receive our Lord in the Eucharist. It doesn't much matter to me if the liturgy is done well or the parish has a lot going on, though it's certainly nice when they do. Jesus is present in the gathered assembly and the Sacrament, and that's what I go to encounter.

Do you have a spiritual director? What you're sharing about here would be a great topic to take to spiritual direction and to explore more deeply. It could be a call to some deeper level of faith . . . could also be that the devil is messing with you.

No, I don't want to become a Buddhist.. that was mostly depression talking, when I wrote that... seeking peace and relief..

I agree with you, Phil.. no spirited preaching in Buddhism! And yes, I know that most adult formation and educaton comes from retreats,etc. I thought you would say that. :-)

For me, even if I did find a church I felt comfortable in.. I am often not well enough to go; also I don't care to go alone, and I am not "allowed" to receive Eucharist anyway.

I do pray a lot at home and read my Bible, and do a lot of spiritual reading, and consider myself a Christian, and close to God.

Hi Katy,

So often I don't feel 'fed' at mass. I live in a community of lovely people, but who would cast me out as a heretic if they knew of my beliefs and experiences.

For a long period I had a spiritual director who was/is Buddhist, and he had more knowledge of the christian mystics and christian contemplative life than any other catholic spiritual director I have ever had. I felt heard and met. His website is here http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/jhanananda.html and his name is Jeffrey Brooks. I used to phone him once a month and talk for an hour and pay him via paypal. He is an advocate of stay within your own lineage, and you will be blessed!

I think that most of us who seek to be part of forums on spirituality are not being fed enough in our own communities, but nevertheless we stay there, because, perhaps we are feeding others by our presence. Thank you Katy for bringing this up. Its a worthwhile subject.

I think that gets to the heart of the problem facing the Church in the developed world today: "People don't feel fed."

Well, I'm glad some of you agree on that one.. people don't get "fed" at church..

Derek, maybe we should be "feeding" them.. I have thought of that, esp. when I used to go to the Mennonite church... and yes, sometimes just our presence, our Light, can be a teacher..

Thank you Clare, some interesting thoughts! I will check out that website.. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek:
I think that gets to the heart of the problem facing the Church in the developed world today: "People don't feel fed."

This is a good topic, Katy. Thanks.

I do feel "fed" at church. But I probably wouldn't feel that way at all churches.

Someone PM'd me this essay, "When I am Weak" by Michael Spencer (thank you again, person I'm not naming , and feel free to comment on the essay): http://www.internetmonk.com/articles/B/broken.html

[quote]I think that gets to the heart of the problem facing the Church in the developed world today: "People don't feel fed."[/quote


this is an interesting statement.. and my experience also.. why do you think this is?

a statement worth exploring..

why arent people fed?

And, echoing the above, what does it mean to "be fed," and whose job is it to do that? What is it that's supposedly lacking? "Who" is this "church" that's not feeding people? The leadership?

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
And, echoing the above, what does it mean to "be fed," and whose job is it to do that? What is it that's supposedly lacking? "Who" is this "church" that's not feeding people? The leadership?

I'm really curious to see how others would answer these questions.

I'm pretty introverted, I hate parties but love being in crowds focused on doing, enjoying, or paying attention to something all together. I love the worship music at church, whatever the style, so that joint involvement through music is one way I feel fed at church.

And I find worthwhile teaching at church, even though I do not always agree with the whole Evangelical Protestant package. So that's another way I feel fed. I don't have to have someone fully agree with me before I'm willing to accept that they can teach me. That one--teaching and discussion time--is the job of both leadership and membership to make it work.

But the main way I feel fed is that I do see real, honest people at church, which is why the essay I linked to spoke to me. I'm sensitive and can be easily embarrassed, and I can experience mild dissociation at the drop of a hat, so being real and staying present around people other than my very closest friends isn't necessarily easy for me. But I really have seen that people need me to be me; and I've experienced that in church.

quote:

And, echoing the above, what does it mean to "be fed," and whose job is it to do that? What is it that's supposedly lacking? "Who" is this "church" that's not feeding people? The leadership?

thank you for filling this question out Phil.. and Ariel.. i really enjoyed reading your input.. these questions are upper most in my mind and heart these days.. i pray a lot about this.. i look forward to hearing others insights ...

i will also write in a few days .. i want to take time to consider these questions and listen to others input...

thank you for starting this thread katy....

love christine

I see your point, Phil.. Who's job is it.. really.. to feed us? I guess some of my thinking comes from having associated a lot with, and gone to non catholic services. The emphasis is more on the preaching/teaching, especially the non-literigal churchs.. ie Baptist, and most non-denominational, evangelical churches.

Having said that, and back to the catholic mass, the emphasis is on prayer, music,and eucharist, NOT the sermon.. Also I realize that there are all kinds of people attending.. children, elderly, and also those at different levels of growth. Therefore the sermon has to be somewhat understandable to all. So I see why some of us don't get fed.. and I guess that is o.k. as most parishes encourage people to attend "Life in the Spirit" seminars, Christ Renews, etc. etc.

If our main purpose in going to church is to be "fed", then I guess most are not really being fed.. As for me, I get fed more in my spiriutal reading, scriptures, websites, etc. and the ask the HOly Spirit to lead me and guide me in all of this.

I believe that community is the more important reason for going to church, and like Ariel Jaffe said, I am also an introvert, and am a face (well, used to be) without a name in the crowd. There is a book out about Introverts in the Church, by the way.

Anyway, to me, being fed at church means, coming home with something to think about... something NEW to help my in my life.

quote:

Originally posted by Ariel Jaffe:

quote:

Originally posted by Derek:
I think that gets to the heart of the problem facing the Church in the developed world today: "People don't feel fed."

This is a good topic, Katy. Thanks.

I do feel "fed" at church. But I probably wouldn't feel that way at all churches.

Someone PM'd me this essay, "When I am Weak" by Michael Spencer (thank you again, person I'm not naming , and feel free to comment on the essay): http://www.internetmonk.com/articles/B/broken.html

I read some of that.. thanks for the link.. need to re-read it and comment.

We're dying. Life is full of pain and perplexity. We have Christ, and so, in the future, his life will manifest in us in resurrection and glory. In the present, that life manifests in us in this very odd, contradictory experience. We are dying, afflicted, broken, hurting, confused...yet we hold on to Jesus in all these things, and continue to love him and believe in him. The power of God is in us, not in making us above the human, but allowing us to be merely human, yet part of a new creation in Jesus.

What does this mean?

It means your depression isn't fixed. It means you are still overweight. It means you still want to look at porn. It means you are still frightened of dying, reluctant to tell the truth and purposely evasive when it comes to responsibility. It means you can lie, cheat, steal, even do terrible things, when you are 'in the flesh," which, in one sense, you always are. If you are a Christian, it means you are frequently, maybe constantly miserable, and it means you are involved in a fight for Christ to have more influence in your life than your broken, screwed up, messed up humanity. In fact, the greatest miracle is that with all the miserable messes in your life, you still want to have Jesus as King, because it's a lot of trouble, folks. It isn't a picnic.
***********************************************

This essay speaks to my reality... I am messy, complicated Christian. I hope in His mercy. I would love to find a church where I could bring my truest self, which is flawed, wounded, broken & uncertain...
I try my best in prayer to bring all the me's in me to Christ. I was once told that it is the real me Jesus loves, and what is real? The fact that as much as I have tried many spiritual disciplines: I cannot divorce myself from my humanity... I can be such a jerk. So what feeds me? Being honest about who I really am, and asking for prayer to be the woman I long to be in Christ. I would love to go to your church Ariel, sounds like you have a real gem of a place to worship.

Just one comment for now...

Then why did Jesus say: "Peace Be with you", "I have said these things that your joy may be full", "I have come that they may have life and have it to the full." ?? And why is one of the first questions in the B. catechism "Why did God make us", and the answer is "to be happy in this life...."??

There are many more scriptures... and I don't think it means happiness, peace and joy in the next life, but in this life.. We are being sanctified, and yes, there are problems, but we can have peace in the midst of the storms.. and we can be healed. Right Shasha? :-)

Hi Katy,
it sounds as though you're hungering, for deeper spirituality, but are unaware of it being part of the Catholic Church. I'm sure you've heard of contemplative prayer, but do you have any knowledge about it?

Here's a link that may be what you're looking for.


http://www.kyrie.com/inner/index.htm

God Bless
Jim

Hi Gail--I hope you don't mind if I say that I learned about Michael Spencer's writing from you?

My church isn't that great, but it's good, and I do feel I can be real there, most of the time...it takes courage, though, for me to believe that; it's partly from the church's atmosphere that welcomes flawed people to "come as they are" and partly from learned courage on my side. I often think there of a song by Rich Mullins called "Peace (A Communion Blessing from St. Joseph's Square)", some of which says

"Though we're strangers still I love you
I love you more than your mask
And you know you've got to trust this to be true
And I know that's much to ask

But lay down your fears
Come and join this feast
He has called us here
You and me...

Though I love you still we're strangers
Prisoners in these lonely hearts
And though our blindness separates us
Still His light shines in the dark
And His outstretched arms
Are still strong enough to reach
Behind these prison bars
And set us free

So let Peace rain down from heaven..."

I guess it may sound kind of corny without the music--it's a beautiful song--but I do find it true that "that's much to ask" of myself to "lay down (my) fears and come and join this feast" and I have to ask that same thing of myself repeatedly. The phrase "His outstretched arms" comes from the liturgy of the Passover seder, the first Eucharist, of course, as Jesus celebrated it with His disciples, and I have to let myself remember how I have seen Him still active in freeing us. It doesn't come easily to me to remember that.

quote:

Originally posted by JimR-OCDS:
Hi Katy,
it sounds as though you're hungering, for deeper spirituality, but are unaware of it being part of the Catholic Church. I'm sure you've heard of contemplative prayer, but do you have any knowledge about it?

Here's a link that may be what you're looking for.


http://www.kyrie.com/inner/index.htm

God Bless
Jim

Jim, yes I am aware of contemplative prayer; do practice Centering Prayer, and have read most of Keating's books.. Also went on a C.P. weekend retreat a couple of years ago..

Thank you for the link, and for your reply.

:-)