Hi Katy--

I do believe we are offered peace and joy here and now. Just reading that essay from Michael Spencer the first time (awhile ago), I first protested to myself that with some psychological awareness and spiritual help things can get much less troublesome and maybe the writer didn't know that.

Then, after those protests to myself, I was quiet and let myself hear him. And, speaking only for me, I have to say he's making a true observation, though he does sort of go to extremes to make it. I am still a mess. It's just the truth, here and now, not of what I can be and will be, and not dismissing the healing and growth I've known already. The essay just deeply and uncomfortably spoke to me about facing where I really am at, and from that true place is where I'm able to hear the crazy invitation from Jesus to "come just as you are"...which for me is sometimes mud-covered and I'm ashamed and think I'll slink off and clean myself up---and sometimes it's coming to Jesus happily, celebrating healing at that time, as Michael Spencer puts it.

"Why do so many "good Christian people," turn out to be just like everyone else? Divorced. Depressed. Broken. Messed up. Full of pain and secrets. Addicted, needy and phony. I thought we were different."

I think a lot of the problems are of one's own doing.. not taking care of the body, for one. Why are they still serving coffee and donuts after church? And then there are those pot lucks... and church festivals with beer, pop, gambling, and junk foods.. There must be healthier ways to fellowship.

quote:

I am messy, complicated Christian. I hope in His mercy. I would love to find a church where I could bring my truest self, which is flawed, wounded, broken & uncertain...

Gail.. you say it very well!

the posts on this thread have been very interesting...am grateful for them all....

Gail.. i have really enjoyed the books you sent me.. God has really used you in my life.. your kindness and love , extending to me after i ripped your head off here on the forums . your love has touched my heart deeply.. thank you for giving of yourself when i was far from lovable. thank you Gail again for serving me in my dark hour..

for the record.. , i was going to Pm you today.. Matthew and i moved.. out to the *****country****.. it is .. awesome!! i will send you pictures when i get them developed... this move has been what i have needed.. i feel revived.. and deeply blessed.. i wake up to soaring eagles over the Yellowstone river ( 200 yds away from our front door, deer in the front yard and .. oh , incredible peace...



" I would love to find a church where I could bring my truest self, which is flawed, wounded, broken & uncertain...[/quote]

this forum is not church.. but this sums up how i feel about this forum.. you have seen me at my best( when i posted the story about my experience i had with the child and Jesus of the Divine mercy.. and at my worst.. when i was acting out old stuff here on this forum during a huge kundalini surge.. which really had to do with my frustration regarding the visible Church.... that has everything to do with this topic/ thread now.... i am thankful for the patience and kindness this forum has shown me when i had been all over the map......


in a day or so i will post on this thread and contribute .....

i enjoy this thread!

love christine

quote:

Originally posted by Ariel Jaffe:s

"Though we're strangers still I love you
I love you more than your mask
And you know you've got to trust this to be true
And I know that's much to ask

But lay down your fears
Come and join this feast
He has called us here
You and me...

Though I love you still we're strangers
Prisoners in these lonely hearts
And though our blindness separates us
Still His light shines in the dark
And His outstretched arms
Are still strong enough to reach
Behind these prison bars
And set us free

So let Peace rain down from heaven..."

I guess it may sound kind of corny without the music--it's a beautiful song--but I do find it true that "that's much to ask" of myself to "lay down (my) fears and come and join this feast" and I have to ask that same thing of myself repeatedly. The phrase "His outstretched arms" comes from the liturgy of the Passover seder, the first Eucharist, of course, as Jesus celebrated it with His disciples, and I have to let myself remember how I have seen Him still active in freeing us. It doesn't come easily to me to remember that.

I love how you put this.

The lyric's here do not sound corny to me... they invite me to take off my mask & name my loneliness, and how I do feel love for many here on s.p. Now that sounds corny I suppose... But some times the words that people write here just flood my heart with love...

[QUOTE] for the record.. , i was going to Pm you today.. Matthew and i moved.. out to the *****country****.. it is .. awesome!! i will send you pictures when i get them developed... this move has been what i have needed.. i feel revived.. and deeply blessed.. i wake up to soaring eagles over the Yellowstone river ( 200 yds away from our front door, deer in the front yard and .. oh , incredible peace...

Dear Christine,

Yikes, your kind words make me blush... Thank-You.

Your move... it sounds beautiful, and I am delighted to hear that you are being deeply blessed. I look forward to the pictures. You have been a living doll, and I consider you my dear sister in our Lord.

quote:

I think a lot of the problems are of one's own doing.. not taking care of the body, for one. Why are they still serving coffee and donuts after church? And then there are those pot lucks... and church festivals with beer, pop, gambling, and junk foods.. There must be healthier ways to fellowship.

Hi Katy,

I hear you on "not taking care of the body" And also, yes, a lot of my suffering has been brought on by myself, my own doing. I think I can say without justifying my sins, is that for me, the ways in which I was sinned against as a child, laid a framework that I am still in the process of unraveling at 56 years old. It is a long story, not unlike many others. Depression & emptiness have been major themes in my life. I had such high highs and beautiful moments when Jesus first revealed himself to me... It was glorious, and I hold those memories as treasures. Boy, I blush now when I remember how I thought He was going to use me...lol
I don't know if this is making a lick of sense, but I do have moments of peace, and moments of joy, only to head straight into sorrow and anxiety... I have a long long road ahead of me... Bless You as you search, a friend once told me that the soil we often grow in is the soil of struggle.

All,

Religion is the practice of the worship of God.

Catholic mass is worship of God -- communal worship of God.

So, in a very real sense one does not attend mass to be ‘fed‘. On the contrary, in a very real sense one attends mass to feed -- to feed God our thanks and to feed God our praise. 'It is truly right and just that we always and everywhere give Him thanks and praise'. That’s the reality of realities.

And my sinfulness and my failures and my feelings and emotional sentiments, or lack thereof, can in no way undermine that reality of realities. God deserves our love for His own sake. Period.

So, the focus in our attendance at mass is not to be on me. The focus is to be on God. One goes to give, not primarily to receive. Nonetheless, certainly God indeed does feeds us sacramentally of His spiritual
life-force as we make our thanksgiving in the Eucharist; and He feeds our intellect via the scripture readings.

And being gathered in a body of believers assists us, and assures us, and aids our progress in faith. But our purpose should be primarily focused on worship of He -- not the advantage of liturgy to me. Your Father knows what you need. And for all of us that’s growth in faith . For all of us, that’s not growth in feeling nor growth in sentiment. We need to be weaned from that. Because that is not faith; that is not God; that is just us.

Faith is not feeling. Things supernatural are in no way perceivable as are things natural. SJOC says we are to embrace this darkness of faith. In a certain sense, the more we do not know what’s going on the better; the more we understand the less we are working our faith. The objective truth of Divine Revelation not the subjective emotive nature of our feelings and sentiments and thoughts are what we are to put faith in.

Like the ‘garbage in garbage out’ axiom of computer science, ‘being fed’ -- getting something out of going to church -- entails putting something in, involves stirring up one’s faith: praising God for who He is based on what we know of Him from Revelation, bringing Him our gratitude for what is going well in our lives, bringing the day’s or the days of the past week’s blessings to Him in gratitude. Come prepared. And if you don’t feel anything, if you don’t learn anything from a homily -- so what. You have adored and thanked and praised He who is worthy of that from you. You have loved Him.

Like the catechism comment in one of the posts. We are here to know Him and to love Him and to be happy with Him forever. Mary Magdalen anointed His feet with her hair. She certainly got to know Him and love Him. She didn’t do that anointing for herself. She did it for Him -- focused on Him. We too can certainly forget about ourselves for a few moments a week and focus on Him. If we can’t do that, then …

We Americans need to get away from the utilitarian thinking that we are immersed in -- the ‘what’s in it for me’.

Among the things we can be grateful for is that we still have access to church -- we haven’t seen our churches swamped in Australia’s mega - puddle, or Brazil’s or Haiti’s or Pakistan’s environmental disasters, nor do we have to attend mass in fear, in countries where terrorists are attacking Christians; that we still have priests and sacraments available to us and churches with air-conditioning and heat; and freedom to practice our faith. So far.

******
Katy, I noted that you mentioned you can’t receive communion. You might work on rectifying whatever the issue is with that. Perhaps there will be a gift there -- in the context of: ‘Return to Me and I will return to You’.

And, BTW, perhaps He doesn’t care if you -- Breathe! Perhaps that’s just poppycock. When He called the apostles He just said, Follow Me -- there are no scriptures anywhere that mention the importance of breathing -- and in the writings of the contemplative saints and mystics -- breathing receives no mention either.

Gasp,
Pop-pop

p. s. No Buddha paid the price for you; No Buddha took the stripes for you. Take from Buddhist teachings what benefits your spiritual growth, but -- “Don’t Forget Who’s Taking You Home And In Whose Arms You’re Gonna Be”!

Remain in the Vine.

Hi Gail, Yes, I can relate.. struggling with childhood issues, etc.. many things are not of our making. Have had my highs and lows too... really, really highs, and really, really lows!

So I hear you! Thanks for your reply.

Katy

Hi Pop Pop,

O.K. I can understand your viewpoint.. some of that is just not where I'm at...we each have our own path.. thanks for taking the time to reply.

I do take issue with your commments about breathing... but that would be another topic... In the meantime, if you're interested, here is one Chritian book about breathing:

http://www.amazon.com/Breath-G...id=1296249055&sr=1-4

Katy

Hi Katy and friends,

I'll be jumping back in to this interesting discussion soon. Too much cooking right now...

Meanwhile...I'm praying for God's Word to bring you all deep peace...

what does it mean to "be fed"? whose job is it?

i've distilled it down to my acceptance to what is present in every Catholic Church in the world, Our Lord Jesus on the altar. Its my job to be surrendered to the action of the Holy Spirit every time I receive our Lord in the Eucharist.

the rest of it,.... poor homilies, ridiculous music, mere distractions from the Main Event.

If we all had the awareness about Who is there in our presence, we wouldn't be questioning about being fed........in my humble opinion.

I take responsibility for my own spiritual growth. Finding spiritual directors has been fruitless, so contemplation and the sacraments are what keep me going.

I find , right now, its a time of clearing out the unnecessary, keeping things simple, in my thoughts, what I eat, what I hear, watch, etc.I think there is something going on with the Kundalini energy and cleansing. but thats another forum............ (maybe thats why I feel its very simple to be "fed" right now)

....and I love reading all the different ideas posted here. Love and prayer to all, Donna

Hello all.

The question I have is can Phil or anyone on the forum explain to me simply what contemplative prayer is, sitting in silence and breathing exercises are and how long i need to do it daily. My goal is to open the seven seals in my back and have my "eye" be single and body full of light. I have read alot of books but it is better to talk to Phil or anyone on forum who has actually felt the Spirit of God working on the body perfecting it than the dead letter.

Thanks

Jesus addressed the command "Feed my sheep" to St. Peter (John 21:17). That would imply that it's the pope's responsibility.

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:


And, BTW, perhaps He doesn’t care if you -- Breathe! Perhaps that’s just poppycock. When He called the apostles He just said, Follow Me -- there are no scriptures anywhere that mention the importance of breathing -- and in the writings of the contemplative saints and mystics -- breathing receives no mention either.

Gasp,
Pop-pop

Hi Pop Pop

NKJV- Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Ezek 37:5
Thus says the Lord God to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live".

To me personally these verses say to me that our breath and God and the life that was given to us are intimately connected. I believe God does care if we breath.

Carmel 43,

I’m not of Italian ancestry but in regard to your post -- I say: PERFECTO!

Derek,

Perhaps you have read or have heard in the course of your days the following:

“The fault Dear Brutus, lies not in the stars, but in ourselves”.

So it is, I believe, that the fault (of not being fed) Dear Posters lies not in the church we attend for mass, but in ourselves. Faulting our parish church and/or its priest for our lack of being ‘fed’ betrays an inappropriate faulting; bespeaks casting blame inappropriately; a log vs. splinter thing.

Is it really, that I am imperfect because my parish priest is imperfect? Is it that I would be a saint if my parish priest were a saint or a great homilist at least? That I would be holier? …. I don’t think so. (Though I might be holier if I didn’t complain so much).

Christ was a great homilist I think, but were all His listeners converted? Did all His listeners become saints? Hey, not even all 12 of His Apostles turned out faithful. Is it that they were not properly ‘fed?’ Was it Christ’s fault? ….. I don’t think so.

As for your implying that the Pope is responsible for one of our poster’s not feeling she was ‘fed’, I don’t believe she attends mass at the Vatican. Perhaps the Pope would indeed do better than her parish priest. Perhaps not.

Of course you quote from scripture, Derek, but do you really believe that our poster bears no responsibility relative to what she gets out of mass? Do you believe that if one person in her parish felt ‘fed’ that the Pope could be exonerated? Do you believe that no Catholics in the millions of mass attendees everyday are being fed?

(Psst-- I feel fed. The Pope gets a pass!)

Mass is not a spectator sport, nor is it entertainment. Americans are addicted to media attraction.

That in our poster’s opinion the church needs another reformation….? She thinks highly of her opinion.

Gasp!

Mary Sue,

Certainly God’s breath gave us life. And yes scriptures attest to that. (God’s breath is not the same as man’s. I know mine stinks of garlic sometimes). Yes, certainly God cares whether we have breath. And yes, certainly, breathing is important / essential in all aspects of life -- including relaxation and the place it plays in meditative techniques. I was just trying to bring to the fore that breathing techniques do not of themselves bring about growth in virtue / holiness. Breathing techniques can mislead us. We can focus on ourselves and not on God. God wants our wills, our hearts. One doesn’t overcome one’s flesh, the world or the devil by simply deep breathing.

St. Teresa of Avila does not advise her sisters in breathing techniques. Mother Teresa would probably giggle at it all. The early martyrs I doubt faced the lions with the courage required because they had mastered proper breathing. Christ didn’t teach on the import of proper breathing. Though, He may well have breathed and relaxed meditatively in His many hours of prayer. So, while I don’t deny it has validity and place, neither do I believe it has essential relevance.


Hoping all feel ‘fed’ (-- and not ‘fed up’),
Pop-pop

in the Eastern Orthodox Church, in the monasteries like Mt Athos and many of the monasteries today while the monks say the Jesus prayer focus on the breath is taught.. i have also read this in the Philokalia, a book written by some of the great spiritual Fathers... it is clearly stated within these texts.. focus on the breath and manipulation of the breath while praying..........

Pop Pop, you keep gasping! I think you need to do some breathing exercises.

Wow, Katy, this has turned out to be a great discussion you got started.

It was the great 20th C. Catholic theologian, Karl Rahner, who said something to the effect that "the Christian of the 21st C. will be a mystic or he or she will not be a Christian." I think by this he meant to signify that as more and more people become "postmodern" in their worldview, it will no longer be enough to believe that we have the truth, or that to be connected with the Church is enough. For old fuddy-duddy premodern/modernists like myself (OK, I really DO have some appreciation for postmodernity), there's little expectation that the Mass will do much more than present an opportunity for public worship and reception of Jesus in the Eucharist. If, in addition, I can help out by serving on some committee, that's great, too. The sermon, music, etc. are all secondary. What I don't need, however, is a priest whose preaching and lifestyle are "counter-symbolic" to the Gospel. I can pretty much endure bad preaching, but not narrow-minded, judgmental messages the put down Protestants, condemn Catholics practicing birth control to hell, and basically scold the people as though we are bad little children who don't know anything about God or spirituality. I've been exposed to a few of those in my time, and have even changed parishes because I just don't want to be exposed to that.

People do have a right, even withing a particular faith tradition, to search around for a community that they feel they can pray with and contribute something. Christian community is one of Christ's four modes of presence to us (see https://shalomplace.org/eve/forums/a/frm/f/211107858) and so it's important to be part of one, else our knowledge of Christ is incomplete. Without some vital connection with community, our spirituality becomes too privatized -- me and Jesus and our prayer time; me and the Eucharistic Jesus. He really is present in a special way in community, too; it's his "mystical body," we say, and he wants us to know him there as well. Sometimes it can take awhile to find one we can connect with. Postmodern folk just don't connect with premodern or even modern expressions of Christianity. Sometimes I think it's almost like we have three different kinds of Christianity out there.

yes, Phil, the other part of the equation , after being "fed" by the Eucharist, we are to be broken and then shared. how do we share what we have just received, that expands into community. Its a natural progression, can't keep it hidden.

pop-pop, every time i read your posts, i can't help but see a twinkle in your eye and a little smile. love your sense of humor!!! sometimes it just seems like common sense to me, and not so complicated, (life in general) right?

had bacon and eggs this morning after mass, feeling pretty fed, especially hearing the beatitudes. good for the 'tude

Well now don't get me goin' on bacon and eggs.. :-)))

Phil, I think that's pretty much what it's all about.. community.. I mean, the early Christians hung out together all the time..and shared meals.. of one heart and one mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Postmodern folk just don't connect with premodern or even modern expressions of Christianity. Sometimes I think it's almost like we have three different kinds of Christianity out there.

I agree, there are different kinds of Christian's..
And then there is the "emerging church".

quote:

then there is the "emerging church".

yep.

quote:

Originally posted by Katy:

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Postmodern folk just don't connect with premodern or even modern expressions of Christianity. Sometimes I think it's almost like we have three different kinds of Christianity out there.

I agree, there are different kinds of Christian's..
And then there is the "emerging church".

I'd like to throw something out there...

Phil, you said something about music and sermons being secondary to the Eucharist, and I think Carmel said something similar.

For two reasons, I think music and substantial teaching can be up there in importance with the Eucharist for the church to be relevant today.

First, and less critically I guess, is the central place of music to younger generations. I'm 43, so I'm not really young, but just about everyone I know who is my age or younger, grew up with a great deal of music. It's not about entertainment, it's just that music is such powerful and evocative stuff...as I was reminded of yesterday when, while shopping, I heard some "classic rock" songs from when I was a teenager. I played, back then, a black Fender electric guitar in a band with some friends, and music was then, and is now, one of the best ways to communicate with me. And judging by the popularity of iPods, etc. with my nieces and nephews and their friends, music is even more important today. So can I throw out the idea that maybe it's a bit short-sighted to downplay the value of good music in the church today?

Secondly, okay, the Eucharist is of great importance, but it is only to be celebrated by Christians. What about inquirers who step into a church, or are invited by friends or family members? So, again, can I present the idea that we need something of value and substance for all comers, not just the Christians?

quote:

Originally posted by faustina:

quote:

then there is the "emerging church".

yep.

Emerging church is a good example of postmodern Christianity. Do any of you belong to such a community?

Some of my spiritual directees do, and from what I gather, it's rather soft on doctrine and strong on building community spirit with music (as Ariel noted) and non-traditional prayer forms like Taize and group lectio divina. In a sense, they're very open to religious experience and contemplative spirituality and are quite willing to make use of disciplines from other religion in their practice. It will be interesting to see how this develops.

Of course, many mainline churches (including Catholic) have embraced a number of postmodern assumptions without ceasing to be connected to their faith tradition. Sometimes these are called "liberal" churches, but that's only in comparison to those that are more premodern/modern.

By the way, if you're not quite sure what these terms mean, here are a few good links with some reflection on relevance to Christians:
- http://www.scriptoriumdaily.co...ter-to-evangelicals/
- http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/breakdwn.html
- http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/breakdwn.html
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_history

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