Discernment is: it's raining outside. Judgment is: rain is bad or rain is good.

That's just more of the same kind of idiosyncratic use of words. What you're calling discernment, most people call perception or observation. Discernment can mean a whole range of things, but in the spiritual life it generally refers to whether something is leading one toward God or away. Same goes for judgment; there are all kinds of judgments people make. Obviously, in your example, rain is neither good nor bad as rain simply exists and so there is no moral connotation to the fact of rain.

God is creating all happenings, to look back on a happening and say it was right or wrong is futile and the source of all guilt and fear.

This is just silly nonsense, failing to distinguish between different causes of activities. God doesn't directly cause human beings to act the way they do, and there are moral implications of many (maybe most!) human actions. To say that making judgments about actions is the "source of all guilt and fear" is also way over the top. Most often, the cause of guilt is that one has acted immorally, and guilt is a healthy signal to correct that. Fear comes from the perception (there's that word again) of a threat -- often a very real possibility, and the fear is a signal to do something to deal with the threat. Unresolved fear can mean that the threat hasn't been dealt with, or that one is scaring oneself with unrealistic treat-possibilities.

TBiscuit, as I've mentioned, I do know what you're describing as enlightement, but, as noted on that Enlightenment and Christian spirituality thread I pointed you to, I do not consider it more than one of several kinds of spiritual experiences. Also, I do not think enlightement is a very humanizing experience, nor that it contributes much to developing human character and community. Indeed, I'm not even sure it does anything to transform the mind and will; the incidence of addictions among "enlightened" masters has left me suspicious of this for a long time. I wonder if what's happening is not an inflation of Ego in the realm of spirit; the arrogance and dogmatism that so often characterizes communication from "enlightened" people isn't a good sign, as mlk noted above.

But now my big question: is what you're sharing with us what Dr. David Hawkins teaches? If so, then that's little different from the kind of tripe we find in "A Course in Miracles," which I've already commented on unfavorably in another thread.
Edit: Michael, maybe you and/or pawbard can comment on this as well.

Phil said:

"Also, I do not think enlightement is a very humanizing experience, nor that it contributes much to developing human character and community. Indeed, I'm not even sure it does anything to transform the mind and will; the incidence of addictions among "enlightened" masters has left me suspicious of this for a long time. I wonder if what's happening is not an inflation of Ego in the realm of spirit; the arrogance and dogmatism that so often characterizes communication from "enlightened" people isn't a good sign, as mlk noted above."


Good description. I haven't been following the thread closely, but since, in Christian mystical understanding, as well as the other devotional faiths, God works beyond our faculties (which makes no sense until there is a moment of graced contemplation), then the evolution of consciousness must itself come to an end via the limits of creatureless, or the created before the uncreated Divine.

Perhaps the reason I come up Hindu on beliefnet's belief-o-matic is the way I answer one of the questions:

"God is both personal God and the impersonal force guiding the universe."

This is the best I can do. It's like a mosquito
attempting to understand human consciousness. Jesus said, "To what shall I liken this generation. It is as children crying in the marketplace, 'We have piped for you, and you did not dance, and we have played for you, and you did not sing.'

In another place He says there is a generation
whose eyes are lifted up. I'm still wondering what he meant by that...

Hawkins says that Truth=God, and the levels of consciousness are the best way we have to understand he/she/it.

Liberal theologians tell me that based on their careful scholarship and research, considering the anthropological needs and myths of the culture of ancient man, anthropomorphisms are to be expected. After all, it is only natural.

I believe that God understood His creation and it's needs quite well, and chose way in advance to come as a person and to accept responsibility Himself for providing the means of salvation of the lost world.

This is quite unflattering to human pride. The common denominator I have seen in all belief systems which I identify as false is the bootstrap approach where we are going to do something that will lift us up to God, Godhead or Godhood.

Merton writes about something in fallen human pride that desires to soar above the angels.

According to Hawkins, an archangel is running 50 times the energy which a human nervous system can withstand, and that if one touched you, you would explode or implode or something. I can agree
with him on that. I am like a bug to some of these other beings out there, yet I worship God alone and no celestial beings or entities, and I don't believe I shall become one any time soon.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

Thanks for your sharing on this, Michael. I don't think there's any doubting where you stand in terms of faith and humility. I'm just trying to understand where Hawkins is coming from and whether he's really plugging enlightenment in the way TBuiscuit, in particular, is describing it.

You say: Hawkins says that Truth=God, and the levels of consciousness are the best way we have to understand he/she/it

I understand, but I'm sure you can see the problems we run into when we make levels of consciousness the criterion for evaluating Truth and then use kinesiology to determine levels of consciousness. What happens, then, is that kinesiology becomes the means for determining what's true, or more true, or a higher truth, etc., and I think we need to give those premises a lot more critical evaluation. From a Christian perspective, it's unthinkable that this should in any way be given the same priority we do the Church's long discernment of the Truth about God revealed in Christ.

Nevertheless, I don't want to seem like a dogmatic stick in the mud, here. I'm sure there's nothing in Hawkins' teaching that can really de-throne or invalidate Christian teaching, but I'd like to understand what he's really measuring, and what it tells us.

I just listened to his September 14th broadcast.

http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/drhawkins.shtml

He sez Power vs Force is in 14 languages now and being used in China and in ministries of the government of India and Japan. The question arose of locating members of the Taliban with kinesiology. He said do not waste your time because the government will ignore you or place in in the "tarot card" category.

He calibrated George Bush's convention speech at 460, and the concept of global warming calibrates below the level of integrity. Warming is due to the sun's magnetic energy and not linked to the use of fossil fuels.

I learn something new every day.

Phil,

We seem to be in substantial agreement about this so far. I'm going to continue to track Hawkins and his ideas and see what comes of it. It is at least very interesting, but I'm not about to run my entire life by it just yet.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

Following up on this one: Perhaps the reason I come up Hindu on beliefnet's belief-o-matic is the way I answer one of the questions:

"God is both personal God and the impersonal force guiding the universe."

Michael, I could go along with this, only it's one of the kinds of questions that I would have wanted better nuanced. I'd happily concede that the lawfulness of nature is impersonal, and this is the context in which nature unfolds. I wouldn't say that this impersonal lawfulness is "God guiding the universe," however. See what I mean?

It seems to me that God works within the impersonal universe to influence its development, appealing to the freedom of creatures within the universe to follow the leadings of the Spirit. Some process philosophers and theologians have surmised that this goes on along the full range of creatures, from atoms to humans. In the case of humans, we have the ability to consciously access our freedom and become conscious co-creators with God. . . a glorious possibility.

Not sparrow falls to the ground without his notice, and the very hairs of our head are numbered.


I saw a Philosophy of the Matrix book which I may go back and pick up. They played a great deal on the question of fate vs free will. Philosophers and theologians have bantered back and forth about this a great deal for centuries.

I'm readin Pir Vilayat Inayat Kahn today, and he postulates that it is both fate and free will and Something Greater. I rather enjoyed the King's Gambit story that you posted.

Hawkins speaks of karma plus free will, and the Good Book pictures us as earthen vessels.

I feel that I am an earthen vessel that contains the treasure, but clay is clay and I never will actually become the Treasure, though part of me can join with It, and that's enough for me.

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

http://www.faculty.virginia.edu/consciousness/

This is getting over my head a bit and I hope Johnboy shows up. This is how the university system is likely to keep the great unwashed masses of Christianity from putting their foot back in the halls of acadamia. Merge quantum physics and eastern mysticism!

http://www.watchman.org/na/zukavfailure.htm

This has been going on for awhile. I'm fixin to read Gary Zukav's The Dancing Wu Li Masters from 25 years ago. Even the waitress at the Taco House I spoke to yesterday knows about Gary Zukav and The Seat of the Soul, so I see this as a major trend, and I really don't know what I'm talking about, so I'll await the Johnboysian analysis...

caritas,

mm <*))))><

MM insightfully said: �to keep the great unwashed masses of Christianity from putting their foot back in the halls of acadamia. Merge quantum physics and eastern mysticism!

Oh, you mean like this stuff?

quote:

12.1. The difference between religion and nonduality
Because suffering is often grounded in deep-seated religious beliefs (Section 11.5), such suffering will not end until these beliefs are deeply questioned. However, because there are no doers (see Section 11.2), nobody has any choice about what he/she believes, or about whether or not to question them. If questioning is supposed to happen, it will. If not, it won't. Nevertheless, in this chapter (and for much of the course), for the purpose of ease in communication, we shall use the active (doer) mode of speaking instead of the more accurate passive (nondoer) mode.

I�ve just started reading a book by Albert Ellis. It seems to contain some good advice but I�m constantly recoiling from the harsh atheist-bombs needlessly intermixed with otherwise good advice. It seems to be similar to what the above quote is saying: The key to happiness is to be rational and shun the irrational; that is, only science is rational and anything having to do with religion is irrational.

Religion isn�t perfect, in my humble opinion. But the glaringly obvious mistake made by those who wish to replace religion with something else is that they are making the same rookie mistakes that Christianity made HUNDREDS of years ago and has, more or less, rectified. The utopian state-atheism/secular humanism/scientific-socialism that is promoted as the new savior of mankind has no hope of saving much of anything because it denies too much of the Mystery, is too confident in its surety, and is just WAY to mean and cynical.

Hope that will tide you over for at least 5 minutes...until JB swings by.

Note to the forum . . . JB is exercising his typing fingers . . . recovering from recent hurricane scares . . . still thinking deeply!

Any day now!

Never have looked into Albert Ellis, but I do have Walden Two by B.F. Skinner. I am still a wee bit afraid to delve into it since his daughter required therapy to get over his experiments in behaviorism which she was subjected to as a child.

Here's a flyer that I found at the mall today:


Ashtar Command

The only thing that will save this planet
and ALL life on it from total destruction
is for ALL humans to begin to show
ALL the attributes of love
(in a positive way toward one another!
If not, then prepare for Armageddon!

-Commander Ashtar

Ashtar's Universal Society of Interplanetary People Plans for the Future New Earth City

ALL races, sexes, colors, and peace loving "aliens" (Watch the movie THE ARRIVAL) will be invited to live in peace, unity and love.
NO prejudices will be allowed!

Love must and will be shown to ALL!

WE as a new universal family WILL make a difference!

BROTHERS and SISTERS of all walks of life will be needed.

ALL children will be taken out of public and religious schools. This is one major place where hatred and prejudice are taught and practiced!

WE will assist all newcomers with jobs and housing- but there will be NO free rides.

WE will return to farm, ranch and mountain living around the world.

HELP us with your love and ideas- tell your freinds! (donations appreciated)

Sent with Universal Peace and Love Eternal

Mars'ena

Ready for 2014 A.D.
Soon!
Universal Church of Light-Love-Life

Further Infromation contact Mars'ena Da'an Ashtar
720-435-9039
P.O. Box 181232
Den. Co 80218
---------------------------------------------------
Visualize Whirled Peas

caritas,

mm <*))))><

You should check him out, Michael. You'll all note, I'm sure, that Buddha is not among the happy few, nor are Mohammed, Moses, Confucius and Lao Tzu. You'll also note a Mr. St. Germain there!

I wonder what Ashtar would calibrate to?

BTW, a google search for Commander Ashtar yields a lot of other sites, some with movies of UFOs.
see http://www.universe-people.com/default_e.htm

"NO prejudices will be allowed!"

"Love must and will be shown to ALL!"


I guess freedom of speech is out, along with the right to privacy!

Better the loss of freedom of speech and the right to privacy than a world without love!

Oh, wait . . .

I started reading Seat of the Soul (1989) and
Soul Stories (2000) by Gary Zukav. He seems a very nice man for an ex-Green Beret and recovering person. His books are insightful and uplifting, and alot of people must believe so or he would not be on
Oprah and the best seller lists.

I must admit that I was a little disappointed this morning when I found out that he converses with a "non-physical entity" named Ambres. Perhaps I'll go back to reading Deepak Chopra

caritas,

mm <*))))))><

Hey everyone,

Hawkins is doing a conference call this today at 1pm est. It'll be an hour long, is free, and should be pretty interesting.

Author of Power vs. Force
Dr. David R. Hawkins
Tuesday, September 21st at 10am PDT - FREE
Pre-register by sending a blank email to:
DavidHawkins@getresponse.com

The Special Conference Call interview with Dr. David Hawkins is tomorrow, September 21st at 10:00am Pacific (1pm Eastern and 6pm London time). The call is scheduled for one hour.

The dial-in number is 212-990-8000. You'll be asked to enter a pin code, followed by the pound (#) sign. The pin is 9214. (NOT 9124). Normal long distance charges apply, there are no additional tolls or fees.

The lines will be open five minutes before the call. I'll be on the line greeting callers. You are welcome to introduce yourself and share where you are calling from (i.e. This is Mary Allen from Los Gatos, CA). Please try to call from a quiet space, and be prepared with pen and paper, and 100% of your attention to maximize your experience.

There are over 600 people pre-registered for the call, so I will be muting the lines when we are ready to get started. To mute yourself prior to that time, press *6 at anytime.

You are welcome to invite others to attend this call. They may use the same dial-in number and pin to access the call. If possible, please have them pre-register by sending a BLANK email to DavidHawkins@getresponse.com so we may have the best possible projection of headcount and ensure we can accommodate everyone who wants to participate. I will also be sending out some additional information about Dr. David Hawkins background after the call.


It would be cool if everyone on this board would listen so that we all have the information necessary to intelligently discuss the work.

Not a small obstacle with all the New Age teachings, Whether from Shirley MacClean, Ram Dass,
Deepak Chopra, Gary Zukav, Carolyn Myss and others is they all insist on reincarnation and base much of their teachings on this idea.

http://www.comparativereligion.../reincarnation3.html

http://www.catholic.com/library/reincarnation.asp

Where do we go from here? Thanks for the invitation, Tbiscuit. I plan on reading his new book when available.

caritas,


mm <*))))><

It would be cool if everyone on this board would listen so that we all have the information necessary to intelligently discuss the work.

Not that we've been impressed with your knowledge of Christianity . . . ahem!

Perhaps it would help to note that there are some pointedly critical reviews of Hawkins' first book on Amazon.com, including several from people with expertise in the areas he makes use of. It's far from a slam-dunk, TBiscuit, and I hope you've heard what I've said about how ludicrous it is to think that Christian truth can be evaluated by the methods he proposes.

Another little anecdote: several years ago, I attended a workshop on kinesiology in which the presenter did an effective demonstration on how positive and negative thought affected muscle tone (the old arm-resistance-to-the-push exercise). That's hardly controversial, however, and neither was the follow-up, where we were asked to think negative, then positive thoughts about the volunteer (unbeknownst to her); same results--positive thoughts gave strength, negative weakened. Next, the volunteer closed her eyes and let her hand rest on a Bible; good resistance and muscle tone. Next, a daily newspaper (with a liberal slant ); weakened. Next, a phone book -- very strong, which surprised the presenter. Back to the Bible, for "control" purposes. No strength.

This disturbed the presenter, who acknowledged that her volunteer might have been subject to suggestion by people in the room who wanted the demo to fail! Well, maybe. I asked how this was supposed to work, and she told me that our unconscious mind could tell what was in a book without us even reading it, and that's what the body we reacting to. I followed-up my question by inquiring if the type of ink, paper, who'd been carrying the book, where it had been, what stuff might have gotten spilled on it, etc. could also be affecting the body, but she said she didn't know.

Personally, I don't accept the premise that the unconscious mind can pick up the vibrational frequency of the words in a book that hasn't been examined. Certainly, and absolutely, I don't accept this methodology as being a credible way to examine the truth claims of the world religions.

- - -

Michael, we once had a good discussion on reincarnation--on the Morality and Theology forum, I believe.

quote:

WE will assist all newcomers with jobs and housing- but there will be NO free rides.

WE will return to farm, ranch and mountain living around the world.

No free rides? What kind of a socialist Utopia is that? And they call themselves New Agers. Harrumph.

quote:

ALL children will be taken out of public and religious schools. This is one major place where hatred and prejudice are taught and practiced!

Yeah. Never seen such things taught by the hubristically and gulliblistically idealistic. Ashtar. Anagram for "has rat" no doubt.

Gary Zukav and The Seat of the Soul

I read that book quite a while ago, MM. I thought it was pretty good. Of all the new agers, Zukav seems the most okey doke. But I see the point kind of that article you linked to that discusses new age teaching as not drawing that line between good and evil. Probably what we need in this world is an astute combination and blend of the kick-A Arnold Schwarzenegger and the namby-pamby soft-spoken Gary Zukov. We need them both in our DNA. We need to bring them both to bear at appropriate times in particular situations. But to be 100% one or the other all the time is probably inviting disaster. So many of these self-help book (excluding Phil's) find ONE thing that was good and then condense everything down to that one element. It's like discovering that that hint of lemon in your tea is good so you decide to drink nothing but 100% lemonade and nothing else.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be recieved with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be recieved with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and
prayer.
If thou put the brethren in rememberance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith
and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
But refuse profane and old wive's fables, and excercise thyself rather unto godliness.

- I Timothy 4:1-7 KJV

I'm not sure Hawkins takes a position on either marriage or vegetarianism, but I'm reading
Zukav now and he recommends both vegetarianism and
marriage being replaced by "spiritual partnership"
which are both old pagan ideas that Christians have been trying to rise above.

Here is a transcript of Zukav on TV about 15 years ago:

http://www.williamjames.com/transcripts/zukav.htm

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

The actual kinesiological testing method is a sticking point for myself as well. In Power vs Force
Hawkins claims to have a quarter million calibrations and now he is up to a third of a million. You can place powdered sugar and Sweet&Low into unmarked envelopes and the synthetic (false) will test weak. You can calibrate all the books in your library by holding them to your chest. I have not tried it yet. We'll see.

As far as utopian shemes, they have always held a certain fascination for me. Thomas Merton's last talk was on communism, and he said that the monastery was the only place it could work.

When Gorbachev visited a kibbutz in 1989, he remarked that this was what they had attempted and failed at for 70 years. In both situations there are a great deal of freedom and responsibility, and a high level of commitment. Some of the cohousing experiments in America may yield some good results. There are a dozen or so in the metro area where I live.

Hawkins seems to put down Christianity as practiced in the last 800 years or so, but has a very high regard for Jesus Christ, the Apostles and most of the New Testament. Christianity, as practiced in the first century, calibrates higher than current Hindu practice and about equal with current Buddhist practice.

I have had a long facination with groups which have attempted a return to first century Christian
practice. The Cistercian Order nearly took over Europe in only 150 years, and this is truly remarkable. The predecessor to the 12 step recovery program, The Oxford Group, was another such attempt and the Charismatic Renewal was another. It has me thinking and I wonder...

caritas,

mm <*))))><

Here I am responding to my own posts. That French Roast from 7-11 is no doubt powerful stuff

An example from Power vs Force is the position
of Gandhi resonating at the non-violent frequency of
700 over and against the position of the British Empire's forces at an angry 150 was no contest. Presumably, the folks back in England were much above 150 and were shamed into withdrawing the troops.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

This statement also calibrates at 700. Since it has held up for 215 years, I see it as a powerful one. Since we did not live up to it,
and have not as yet done so, we had to fight the Civil War and only 100 years later gave all men an equality of opportunity. Women have only had the vote for 80 odd years, and some nagging from the PC movement is an attempt to shame us for where we still may come up short.

If we calibrate at 425-430 presently, it must have been higher than position of the Soviets, which could explain why we won the Cold War. If the Taliban and Al-Queda and our opponents in the Middle East calibrate at most at 150, and in most cases well below that, it should be no contest. We have more power than the force at their disposal.
Since Europe calibrates in the 400s also, I'm not sure why they do not see this.

There, I've stuck my neck way out and Al-Queda
has been sawing them off lately.


caritas,


mm <*)))))><

Michael, I can see where some of this has an appealing logic and corresponds with much of what common sense and intuition suggests, but I do wonder whether these calibrations are measuring reality or merely reflecting the subjective expectations of the one calibrated. I don't see any way to control for that, aside from closing one's eyes and laying hands on various books/publications and calibrating the vibrational frequency picked up. As I noted in a post above, that's shoddy business, at best.

The more I read about all this, the less impressed I am. As some of the Amazon.com reviewers pointed out, kinesiology doesn't really come close to being a "hard science." Double-blind studies have refuted it many times. Then there's the math expert who takes on some of Hawkins' assumptions:
E.g. Perhaps the most blatently incompetent statement he makes is that a loving thought has the energy of " 10^-35 million megawatts"(I'm using the symbol ^ because this this font won't allow superscripts) and claims that the quantity is "so enormous as to be beyond the capacity of the human imagination to comprehend" The truth is that this quantity is so miniscule as to be beyond our capacity to comprehend. 10^35 million is a one with 35 million zeros in front of it- a huge number indeed, but 10^-35 million is 1/10^35 million -- a mind-bogglingly tiny fraction. If you were to multiply the mass of the entire galaxy by a fraction that tiny, you wouldn't even have enough mass for a single electron. If the minus sign was a typo, without it the energy level described would be great indeed -probably be along the order of the big bang and our heads would have exploded (and caused a supernova) a long time ago. In this case, he just threw together the most confusing notation he could think of, without a clue as to what it meant. He did this to make it appear scientific. He figured that his readers would be too dumb to know the difference. I don't think this can be written off as a mere honest mistake

Other laughable statements are that organically grown tobacco is actually healthy, and that taking one gram of vitamin C per day will counter all of the harmful effects of smoking.

He also states that adrenaline causes the muscles to go weak. Adrenaline is the stimulant hormone associated with the fight/flight response and its entire purpose is to give you EXTRA strength and energy in an emergency. As a doctor, he should know this.

Most of the people giving the book a positive review seem to be "true believers" like TBiscuit, who don't really know much about religions, who resonate with Hawkins' philosophical assumptions and his spirituality, and who aren't in any position to critique the science that supposedly supports this work. This reminds me much of the reviews of Professor Griffins' The New Pearl Harbor; people giving that book a high eval aren't really interested in knowing that wreckage from Flight 72 was found at the Pentagon or other info that refutes their assumptions. Even Dave's Occam's Razor report is unpopular.

I wonder, here, if Hawkins and his followers are a kind of cult. When we start misusing science to prove our a-priori assumptions about reality, we're not doing science and we're not really serving the truth. So, what's really going on here?

BTW, Mother Teresa is listed as one who endorses Power vs. Force and her review is as follows:
A] beautiful gift of writing....[You] spread joy, love and compassion through what you write. The fruit of these three is peace, as you know....

Why the . . .? What else did she say? And what the hell does she know about kinesiology, the new physics, and the complex math Hawkins uses? Would she really approve of The Course in Miracles being considered a higher truth than Christianity? I sincerely doubt it!

Same comments go for Lee Iacoca and Sam Walton.