(See also this thread, which is part 2 of the discussion.)


#26,

The Gratitude idea prompted a study of levels of consciousness.

Beginning at a level of 20, one has a despising God,
miserable view of life, shame, humiliation, and elimination.

Consciousness level 30, has an vindictive God, evil life view,guilt, blame and destruction

At 50, a condemning God, hopeless life view, apathy, despair and abdication

At 75, disdainful God, tragic life view, grief, regret and despondency

At 100, punative God, frightening life view, fear,
anxiety and withdrawal

At 125, denying God, disappointing life view, desire, craving and enslavement

At 150, vengeful God,antagonistic life view, anger, hate, agression (Dr Hawkins rates Osama, Hussein and Hitler below this level)

At 175, indifferent God, demanding life view, pride, scorn and inflation

At 200, permitting God, feasable life view, courage, affirmation and empowerment

At 250, enabling God, satisfactory, neutrality, trust and release

At 310, an inspiring God, hopeful life view, willingness, optimism and intention (America on average is around this level)

At 350, a merciful God, harmonious life view, acceptance, forgiveness and trancendence

At 400, a wise God, meaningful life view, reason,
understanding and abstraction ( the office of the Presidency is a level of 450)

At 500 (sainthood), a loving God, benign life view, love, reverence and revelation

At 600, All-being God, perfect life view, peace, bliss and illumination

At 700-1000 (Jesus, Buddha, Krishna are at 1000, by Hawkins' kinesiology) God is self ( I am ) life-view: Is, enlightenment, ineffable and pure consciousness

This tends to agree with some other maps of consciousness I have seen. Would you be so kind as to share your experience with these levels of consciousness. We would be most greatful

caritas,


mm


<*))))><

Michael, where can we find more about this? There is a resonance with Ken Wilber's work. Any kind of inventory one can take?

Qualitative and Quantitative Calibration of the Levels of Human Consciousness by David Hawkins

Power VS Force The Hidden Determinants of Human Behavior (Reading this one now)

Orthomolecular Psychiatry (With Linus Pauling)

Hawkins shared a Nobel prize with Pauling 30 years ago

His latest book is The Eye of the Eye.



http://www.veritaspub.com

http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/drhawkins.shtml

(a couple of years of his monthly radio interview and very interseting if you can get past the fluffy granola new age commercials for ramtha )



When I joined the Centering Prayer groups at the Center for Contemplative living (which is growing steadily,) I attended a mens group and all thay talked about for a long time was Wilbur and Hawkins, Hawkins and Wilbur. Levels of consciousness, are you an orange, purple or green?
I wanted to talk about Jesus, and the groups seemed a tad bit overly intellectual.

I just picked up Wilbur's new book the other day. (He lives here in Denver,) and I noticed thay had moved him over into the "metaphysical" section
of the bookstore.

I don't think these fellows are being taken seriously, and perhaps few are at a level where they can appreciate them.

Father Thomas Aquinas Keating is freinds with Wilbur, has learned alot from him and reccomends him.

I've been down a few rabbit trails, but this one keeps coming up and I would like to pursue it.
Hawkins, Wilbur and Keating all agree that raising the level of human consciousness is humanities #1 problem. Let's try that

caritas,

mm <*))))><

I was thinking about the 100th monkey concept.
This idea seems to resonate with alot of people, which explains the story being around for so long, though it may be apocryphal as far as I know. Was there ever an observation about monkeys peeling squash on Pacific islands? It seems that the story originated simultaneously with Carl Jung's ideas about the collective unconscious.

http://www.wowzone.com/monkey.htm

David Hawkins' research tends to support the theory;

"The collective level of consciousness of mankind remained at 190 for many centuries and, curiously, only jumped to it's current level of 207 within the last decade."

-- Power vs Force 1995, David Hawkins, M.D.

On a radio interview, Hawkins said that this rise took place in 1987, which coincidently was the year of the Harmonic Convergeance. (Hawkins said that is has nothing to do with the Harmonic Convergeance) He comes to all this through millions of experiments with his method of kineseology, from which he has derived countless "calibrations."

Ken Wilbur's Integral philosophy confirms that human consciousnees has the potential to rise through various stages, although this does not confirm the existence of a collective mind.

Mystics do carry a great deal of psychic energy
and messages delivered or recieved by spiritual people are so common as to be proverbial.

I wonder....

caritas,

michael,

<*))))><

Michael and others:

I'll toss my dirty little coin into this exchange, at least as far as the 100th monkey concept is concerned.

One side of this that I haven't heard discussed is how, if quantam principles interface at the psychological level (I believe they do), we account for the subconscious contents that would be far stronger as sources of global interconnectedness than our occasional intentional allignments with the basic human goodness concealed, but unrealized, therein. IOW, one could just as easily explain world turmoil according to this New Age paradigm as describe the hope of world peace.

The notion of world peace is a casual and affable notion, but New Agers tend to be awefully narcissistic, looking under every stone for a way to avoid their shadows. So I think it is peculiar to see this aspect of the fantasy being ignored.

Hawkins presents the individual and collective realization of the levels in separate chapters;

energy level 20 -shame

energy level 30 -guilt

energy level 50 -apathy

energy level 75 -grief

energy level 100 - fear

energy level 125 -desire

energy level 150 -anger

energy level 175 -pride

energy level 200 -courage

energy level 250 -neutrality

energy level 310 -willingness

"This very positive level of energy may be seen as the gateway to the higher levels. For instance at the Neutral level, jobs are done adequately, but the level of Willingness, work is done WELL and success in all endeavors is common. Growth is rapid here; these are people chosen for advancement. Willingness implies that one has overcome inner resistance to life and is committed to participation. Below the 200 calibration, people tent to be close-minded, but by level 310, a great opening occurs. At this level, people become genuinely freindly, and social and economic success seem to follow automatically. The Willing aren't troubled by employment; they'll take any job when they have to, or create a career or self employment for themselves; they don't feel demeaned by service jobs or by starting at the bottom. They're helpful to others and contribite to the good of society. They're also willing to face inner issues and don't have major learning blocks.

At this level, self esteem is high and reinforced by positive feedback from society in the forms of recognition, appreciation, and reward. Willingness is sympathetic and responsive to the needs of others. Willing people are builders of, and contributors to, society. With their capacity to bounce back from adversity and learn from experience, they tend to become self-correcting. Having let go of Pride, they're willing to look at their defects and learn from others. At the level of Willingness, people become excellent students. They're easily trainable and represent a considerable source of power for society."

Power vs Force - David Hawkins MD PHD

Hawkins continues up the scale;

energy level 350 -acceptance

energy level 400 -reason

energy level 500 -love

energy level 540 -joy

energy level 600 -peace

energy level 700-1000 enlightenment


Since Jesus, Buddha and Krishna are way out there at 1000, and the US of A weighs in at about
310, ShalomPlace has ample opportunity to serve

caritas,

mm <*))))><

Michael, as I haven't yet read any of Dr. Hawkins' work, I do see a parallel with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. There are also similarities with Ken Wilber's work and what the Spiral Dynamics people are saying. These teachers are all pointing to a growth progression we can observe in our lives and in various cultures. And, yes, I think the role of spiritual teachers in lifting a culture to a new level is affirmed.

I'm not sure how Dawkins' arrived at his schema. Could you say a little more about that?

Kinesiology- anyone can duplicate his results- sez he. You could have someone hold their arm out and ask them questions about what level something calibrates at and if you can push their arm down, it's no and if not, it's yes.

I know it seems really wierd and I'm still looking for some scientific verification of his method. He claims to have done millions of calibrations in this manner.

He has endorsments on the back cover of the Power vs. Force book from Mother Theresa, Lee Iacocca and Sam Walton, if that means anything.
He coauthored a book on psychiatry with a Nobel prize winner back in 1973. He had a k experience and healed so many hopeless cases as a psychiatrist simply by the "presence" that they had to build an extra wing on the hospital!

--------------------------------------------------

here is something from page 272-273:

Let's take a look at the world's foremost religious teachings in this light.

Christianity

The level of truth originally expounded by Jesus Christ calibrates at 1,000 ---- the highest level obtainable on this plane. By the second century, the level of truth of the practice of his teachings had dropped to 930, and by the sixth century, to 540. By the time of the Crusades, at the beginning of the 11th century, it had fallen to it's current 498. A major decline in the year 325AD was apparently due to the spread of the misinterperetation of the teachings originating from the Council of Nicea. Students of religious history will find it interesting to calibrate Christianity's level of truth before and after Paul, Constantine, Augustine, and so on.

It should be noted that the Lamsa translation (from the Aramaic) of the New Testament calibrates at 750, and the King James Version (which was translated from the Greek) at 640. Just as there is a wide range in the level of truth of various translations, so there is a wide variation between different Christian practices. Most major persuasions--- Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Christian Science (and many small denominations, such as the Quakers)---calibrate in the high 500s.
Specialized interperetations, such as that of the contemporary Course in Miracles, or the 14th century mysticism of Meister Eckhart, calibrate at 600. As in the case of Islam (see next page) however, extreme fundamentalist groups with explicit reactionary political agendas can calibrate as low as 125.

Buddhism

The level of truth of the teaching of the Buddha was also originally at 1,000; by the sixth century A.D.,
the level of truth in practice had dropped to an average of 900. These teachings have deteriorated less than any other religion: Hinyana Buddhism (the lesser vehicle) still calibrates at 890; Mahayana
Buddhism (the greater vehicle) calibrates at 960; Zen Buddhism at 890.

Hinduism

The teachings of Lord Krishna calibrated at 1,000
and have weakened over time, but the truth of the current practice still calibrates at 850.

Judaism

The teachings of Abraham calibrated at 985; the practice that was current at the time of Moses calibrated at 770--- the level of truth of the Torah. Modern Judaism calibrates at 499.The Kabbalah is 720; the Zohar is 730.

Islam

The level of consciousness of Mohammed was 740, and the Koran calibrates at 720. The kernal of Islamic faith is an expression of loving acceptance and inner peace, but the evolution of practical dogma was intertwined from the start with the politics of territorial expansion in the form of JIHAD, or religious warfare. The truth of Islamic teachings had dropped severely by the end of the Crusades. In modern times, the ascendence of fanatic nationalistic religious movements, characterized by paranoia and xenophobia, has rapidly eroded the spiritual essence of this faith.At the present time, the level of truth of the teachings of militant Islamic fundamentalism is 130.

Wow, I find this all fascinating. I don't understand it all intellectually, but have known and believed it on an intuitive level. Wish I had time to really look into it.. but there's sooo much to read, and do.

Thanks,
Katy

I wonder what Hawkins' underlying assumptions are concerning spiritual consciousness. E.g., how can he calibrate Jesus and Buddha at the same level when their lives and teachings are so very different. Also, giving Abraham a 985 is curious indeed, especially since he didn't really leave a body of teaching and can't be credited with much more than trusting God's word (much as we do) and starting the lineage that became the Hebrew race. Also, few historians believe that anyone named Krishna really lived (I know the teaching can be evaluated, however).

Sorry to sound so negative, Michael, and I do confess I've not read Hawkins as you have. I'm just very skeptical of systems like this and Wilber's that end up placing Eastern religions and teachings on the same level as the revelation of Christ.

I agree with you on that, Phil. I don't know anything about calibrating, but I wouldn't give Jesus the same number as Buddha. However I do think Jesus was the highest, if you will, that one can go, and I do believe that religions as a whole, and people are at different levels of consciousness.

My two cents worth.

Katy

I found a link to the levels.

http://www.lifemasters.co.za/powerforce.htm

Here is a guru I know I can trust

http://66.221.137.237/om.shtml

I am interested in what your gut feelings are. This could be something which needs to be brought into the light.

caritas,

mm <*))))))><

re. http://www.lifemasters.co.za/powerforce.htm

OK, I've come across that before. The Eastern bias is obvious, though isn't it? God-view as Self (read, Atman); Life-View as "Is"; Process = Pure Consciousness. That all could be straight out of Wilber.

As a Christian, I just don't buy it, as Christ's resurrection is the decisive "endorsement" by God of all the Masters in history. I don't think Hawkins, Wilber, and others who do these kinds of hierarchies of consciousness give the resurrection much serious consideration.

re. http://66.221.137.237/om.shtml

Seems a light-hearted view of spirituality. I only skimmed, but liked what I saw.

Some things fit and some don't. The PC movement at
180. US at 425. Bush at 450. Churchill at 510. That all seems to fit. My question is, "If the kinesiological testing method calibrates at 600, then what is the basis for his calibrations over that?" The new book deals almost entirely with these
levels of "enlightenment."

From the back cover of Power vs Force;

"...particularly timely...
a significant contribution to understanding and dealing with the problems we face today."
--Lee Iacocca

"I especially appreciate [the] research and presentation on the attractor patterns of business...."
--Sam Walton

"[A] beautiful gift of writing ... [you] spread joy, love and compassion through what you write. The fruit of these three is peace, as you know...."
--Mother Theresa

"Overwhelming! A masterpiece! A lifetime work!"
--Sheldon Deal, president, International College of Applied Kinesiology


Dr. David R. Hawkins is a renowned lecturer and expert on mental processes whose national TV appearances include "The MacNeil Lehrer News Hour"
and the "Today" show. A lifetime member of the American Psychiatric Association, he began work on psychiatry in 1952. Since relinquishing his extensive New York practice for a life of research, he continues spiritual teaching.

Dr. Hawkins is the author of numerous scientific papers and videotapes; in 1973 he coauthored the innovative work "Orthomolecular Psychiatry" with Nobel prize winner Linus Pauling.
Dr. Hawkins extensive backround as a therapist and teacher is noted in his biographical listing in "Who's Who in America."

Dr. Hawkins is currently director of The Institute for Advanced Theoretical Research.

-------------------------------------------------

He's no piker and very well informed. I also believe he has spirituality because the "k" goes crazy when I read his stuff, although I've has a few "watch out here" feelings when he gets New Agey. Anyway, it's a great book on human consciousness

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

I had kinesiology done on me several years ago. I have a Christian friend whose sister is a kinesiologist. I wonder he she could calibrate me.. see what my level of consciousness is. lol

Katy

My question is, "If the kinesiological testing method calibrates at 600, then what is the basis for his calibrations over that?" The new book deals almost entirely with these levels of "enlightenment."

That's what I was wondering, Michael. I think up to that 600 range, there are lots of developmental studies that one can use to establish a pattern. Above that, when we're getting into the transpersonal realms, it's important to know where the author is coming from. With Wilber, he's clearly convinced that Advaita/Enlightenment spirituality is the highest, but how can one really know if he's correct? One could also use the consciousness of the higher chakras as a guage, as these are fairly universal (Wilber seems to rely on these as well). I don't have much of a problem with that until they use it to rank religions and place enlightenment traditions above "dualistic" ones like Christianity, or else use people like Eckart and Bernadette Roberts as examples of some kind of ultimate attainment in Christianity. It's this ranking of non-dual traditions above dual (ontologically speaking) that flat-out rankles me. These teachings cloak themselves in scientific respectability but end up being a kind of evangelical outreach for Hinduism and Buddhism.

Not to take away the interesting work being done here, nor its stimulating potential . . . Maybe I'm just a little too sensitive about some of this? I don't know. It just irks me when the revelation of Christ is minimized, whether explicitly or through subtle, implicit means.

I got to thinking about all of this and what occured to me was that Christian mystics for the most part, took a vow of obedience. Thomas Keating and Thomas Merton have been bound by the authority of their abbot and their bishop, and ultimately the entire Cistercian order submits to Rome.

Meister Eckhart, whom Hawkins calibrates at 600,
was getting into the realm where mystics begin to believe that they actually are God, and the Franciscans called him on it, and there was an inquiry where he made his famous defense.

I was cleaning behind the computer, and what did I run across but The Peter Principle, by Lawrence J Peter. The entire thrust of the book is that everyone tends to eventually get promoted to their level of incompetence. I should think that mystics would be especially succeptible to this, and if we are not very careful and submissive to some kind of authority, then we can wind up like Colonel Kurtz, way up the river and out of control.

Anyway, in Hawkins' defense I did hear him say on the radio that no human being who has ever lived has surpasses Jesus Christ in calibrated level of consciousness, and on this point I wholeheartedly concur.

colonelkurtz.com

<*))))><

In response to a few things on this board:

First of all, the kinesiology is scientifically sound. Expose yourself to Hawkins work to have your doubts removed, or better yet, practice it yourself and you'll see the same results Hawkins has got regardless of your beliefs.

That being said, there are no 'assumptions' presented in his body of work. Jesus and Buddha do both have a calibrated level of consciousness of 1000. This is not debatable once you have a proper comprehension of the method used to derive this figure. It has been tested thousands of times across the world with the same result.

Take two roses and plant one in Serbia and one in Vancouver. After a year of growing time you will have two roses, one that was grown in Serbia and one in Vancouver. They grew in different soil and water, but they�re still both roses. This is the same way you can have two different lifestyles, like that of Jesus and Buddha, and still have both of them calibrate at 1000. Take two beings destined for enlightenment and put them anywhere, they�re both going to end up being what they were going to be.

As far as their teachings being different, they're not at all. They were teaching to two different groups of students with different spiritual understandings, so they may sound different on the surface, but with spiritual discernment you can see they�re sharing the exact same teachings. For example, the concept of Karma was accepted in the East but not commonly understood in Jesus' world. Jesus knew better than to muddy the waters with complexities, therefore he simply taught forgiveness. Forgiveness is, in essence, freeing yourself from Karma. (For more examples: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi...363-7029708?v=glance)

Jesus and Buddha both taught that there was only one sin, that of ignorance. Hawkins work is exciting because it shows us how to drop the blocks that are the source of that ignorance.

"With Wilber, he's clearly convinced that Advaita/Enlightenment spirituality is the highest, but how can one really know if he's correct?"

The Kingdom of Heaven is within you. Once you EXPERIENCE that you KNOW it to be true. It is an indescribable Kingdom. Indescribable by any means. The only way to know it to be true is to seek the EXPERIENCE of that place. You must have faith to look inside yourself for something you haven�t yet experienced to be true. Once you do catch a glimpse of that Reality, however, even though you can�t describe it to your friends or colleagues, you�ll KNOW it exists with the same conviction you KNOW the sun exists.

The resurrection becomes irrelevant once your reach a higher level of consciousness. Eternal Life means Eternal Life. To say you're getting eternal life 'somewhere down the road' means that you've already got it now. How do you separate now from then once you encompass it in forever?

And finally, the kinesiology is but a tool. You can use a telescope to view something that is more complex that the telescope itself. In the same way, use can use kinesiology, which calibrates at 600, to investigate a world that is beyond level 600.

Did this help? Would you like further clarifications?

TBiscuit, welcome. It sounds like you have familiarity with kinesiology and spirituality.

I don't understand your statement that we can "use kinesiology, which calibates at 600, to investigate a world that is beyond level 600." How so? That's like saying we can use our human eyes to study infra-red or ultra-violet raditation. Have I misread you?

I also must confess that I don't know what it means to say that Jesus and Buddha both calibrate at 1,000. It can't mean that they taught the same thing, for Buddhism doesn't even teach anything about God, must less Trinity. Also, Buddhism leads to a different kind of spiritual experience than Christianity. That's not even debatable, imo. See this thread for discussion on this topic.

I agree that roses planted in two parts of the world are both still roses. But what if they're not both roses to begin with? What if one's a rose and the other is a lily? I don't understand this need by so many to make all religions into cultural variations of the same thing.

Hawkins calibrates the Course in Miracles above Christianity . . . Hmmm. . . I halfway suspect the Course to be inspired by demons. What WOULD a demon-possessed person calibrate at, btw? Whatever, I just don't see kiniseology forming the basis for discerning what's true or of value.

-----

A few years ago, my youngest son was having high fevers every few weeks. This went on for months. We took him to one doctor after another, but they could find nothing wrong. Finally, we took him to a chiropracter/kinesiologist, who used his little squeak box to test him against various vermin of all kinds in bottles. He got a direct hit with "Malaria." OK. That could be. In fact, one of his doctors had wondered about this. We mentioned getting a blood test done to confirm, then starting him on proper medication, but Dr. Squeakbox said that wouldn't be necessary; he would treat him using alignments and homeopathic remedies. We said OK, but we ALSO wanted the blood test and medication, thank you very much. He dejectedly agreed. The blood test showed no malaria, so we never-minded conventional meds or homeopathy. Dr. Squeakbox didn't believe the blood test was negative and actually visited the lab director to be sure we weren't lying.

Anyway . . . long story short . . . we insisted that his tonsils be pulled, despite objections from our family doctor. There, on the other side of the tonsils, was massive deterioration and a hotbed for frequent infections of the sort that wouldn't necessarily cause a sore throat. Our son got well and has stayed well, barring the occasional cold of bug going around.

Bottom line for me: whatever kinesiology is based on, it ain't hard science, nor is it really a reliable instrument to detect diseases. It might have relevance concerning how sincerely one holds certain thoughts and convictions, but that's hardly any basis for evaluating the truth claims of religious founders.

I'm aware that I could be one of those people whom P.T. Barnum said were born every minute, and it was perhaps irresponsible of me to bring this up in the first place.

There was a popular book, Skeletons in the Closet
about ten years ago which was a novel about an archaeological find which was thought to be the skeleton of Jesus. All of Christendom was thrown into a panic, until the find was revealed to be a hoax near the end of the story.

If this thing checks out, it would be just about as earth shattering to the Christian faith. Hawkins is taking on many assumptions and cornerstones of the faith, from the Council of Nicea's pronouncements to the rejection of reincarnation in Christian doctrine, to the superiority of Christ to Buddha and Krishna.

He also has had his interfaith team calibrate his own writings just about as high as any of the world's scriptures. This is a great deal to swallow.

I'm waiting for the Christians who are coming up with these calirations to come forward, as well as the apologetic and countercult ministries, who do not seem to be aware of him yet, to chime in. Also
I would like to see some respected scientists come forward to support this method, which I have not tried myself. It seems like divination, which is forbidden in scripture.

Nevertheless, some of the conclusions appear to have a ring of truth and some common sense back of them, so I'll wait and see for the time being.

One idea which makes sense is that raising human consciousness seems to be a high priority for
the humans on the planet.

caritas,

mm <*))))><

No, not at all irresponsible to bring this up. I'm especially glad since, as you've noted, Hawkins seems to be "taking on many assumptions and cornerstones of the faith." That, in addition, he has such a following is even more significant.

As with most everything, I'm sure there's something good and relevant in Hawkins research and so it would be a mistake to discount it all out-of-hand. When he begins to presume that his methods disprove certain Christian doctrines, however, I'm not sure what's going on. I am sure that given a choice between what Hawkins proposes and what the Church teaches, I'll go with the latter.

Hi Phil and MM,

Thanks for the good discussion. I'll continue to add what I can, one issue at a time so as to not confuse any matters further.

I don't understand your statement that we can "use kinesiology, which calibates at 600, to investigate a world that is beyond level 600."

If the gross weight of a lever and fulcrum is 5lbs does that mean you can only move a load with this system that weighs 5lbs or under? Nope. You can use that tool to move weights that are greatly in excess of 5lbs. In the same way, kinesiology, which calibrates at 600, can still be effective to research the world above the 600s. Kinesiology is a bridge that links the linear Newtonian paradigm with the non-linear world of the spirit. No, you can't use your bare eyes to study all frequencies of light, because it's not the right tool, however with the proper tool you can study that light. Kinesiology is the proper tool to study the anatomy of consciousness, an eyeball or wrench is not.

I also must confess that I don't know what it means to say that Jesus and Buddha both calibrate at 1,000. It can't mean that they taught the same thing, for Buddhism doesn't even teach anything about God, must less Trinity. Also, Buddhism leads to a different kind of spiritual experience than Christianity.

If you're a serious spiritual student you'll re-examine your current beliefs on this subject. Jesus and Buddha did not have the same teaching style, but the essence of their teachings is the same. Christ-nature and Buddha-nature is the same thing, it is the divine in all of us. Christianity as an institution does not teach this, but the serious spiritual student will look beyond dogma to see Truth. 'The Kingdom of Heaven is within,' was a teaching of Jesus. Follow that statement through to its extreme and you'll quickly see there's not much reason to have a church as it stands today.

I was raised in a Christian household but decided to check out all the other religions too. Instead of searching for their differences I looked at everything that was the same within each. If you do the same you will quickly see that all religions grew from the One true spiritual reality.

Buddhism teaches of the Absolute, that's the same as an all powerful God. If you take the Trinity the same way my church fed it to me, you'll end up confused. If you examine the Trinity to its logical end, you'll see that Father, Spirit, and Son are fancy words for Cause, Operation and Effect, or Thought, Action, Result. All three of those things are in all beings always. Buddhism teaches of Cause, Operation, and Effect throughout its doctrines, therefore the Trinity is embedded within Buddhism as solidly as it is in Christianity.

But what if they're not both roses to begin with? What if one's a rose and the other is a lily? I don't understand this need by so many to make all religions into cultural variations of the same thing.

Jesus and Buddha are both men. This is an obvious fact. One is not a donkey. I do view religions as cultural variations of the same thing, this however, did not arise out of a NEED I had, this came as a logical conclusion after open-mindedly and unabashedly pouring over every religious and spiritual text I could get my hands on. They're all the same in the end, because all they are trying to do is lead every person to the realization that suffering is not necessary. A state of Heaven is within you here and now. It is not a place to visit after death, it is within you and every human. The only thing blocking this realization is ignorance, which Jesus and Buddha taught was the only sin.

Bottom line for me: whatever kinesiology is based on, it ain't hard science.

Research the topic in a more scientific manner and you will see that it is, in fact, very hard science. If you are a serious spiritual aspirant you are going to have to re-examine your current belief systems. "What is real cannot be threatened, what is not real does not exist. Therein lies the Peace of God."

If this thing checks out, it would be just about as earth shattering to the Christian faith.

Shattering to the church, yes. If the Kingdom of God is within, why do we need a church? Christ�s teachings, however, are exactly in line with what Hawkins is sharing. Search for the Christ within yourself is what Jesus wanted you to do. Read the words of Jesus in the New Testament with a fresh eye and this is glaringly obvious. I love Jesus with a passion that can not be described. I do not love the church built around his name in the same way.

Peace,
T

TBiscuit, there are too many fallacies in your post to reply to, so I'll only take a few:

In the same way, kinesiology, which calibrates at 600, can still be effective to research the world above the 600s. Kinesiology is a bridge that links the linear Newtonian paradigm with the non-linear world of the spirit. . .

That's hardly the same thing as using a fulcrum with weights! Your analogy limps; actually, one of its legs is broken! And what a claim you are making, here, for kinesiology--dogmatically so, I might add! Care to back it up?

If you're a serious spiritual student you'll re-examine your current beliefs on this subject. . .

Mild ad hominem, considering that you know absolutely nothing about my spiritual search, which I would suggest to you has been "serious." You also seem to be insinuating that serious spiritual seekers will agree with you; that's quite an assumption!

I'll pass on your Trinitarian analogy. That one is about Personal Beings and the other impersonal concepts doesn't seem to matter much to you. Okay.

About your "rose" analogy from my post above, I had written: But what if they're not both roses to begin with? What if one's a rose and the other is a lily?

You reply, now: Jesus and Buddha are both men. This is an obvious fact. One is not a donkey.

I was talking about their teachings. (And, yes, I know Buddha was not a donkey! )

. . . this however, did not arise out of a NEED I had, this came as a logical conclusion after open-mindedly and unabashedly pouring over every religious and spiritual text I could get my hands on. They're all the same in the end, because all they are trying to do is lead every person to the realization that suffering is not necessary.

That's not Christianity, friend! The Cross is smack-dab in the center of our spirituality. Accepting the sufferings that come with living a life of love is the way of the cross and it's the way to resurrected life. Here, Christianity and Buddhism were never MORE DIFFERENT. I recommend Carrine Dunne's splendid book, Buddha and Jesus: Conversations. Dunne does a marvelous job in these fanciful exchanges showing what these two teachers have in common, and where they differ.

Search for the Christ within yourself is what Jesus wanted you to do. Read the words of Jesus in the New Testament with a fresh eye and this is glaringly obvious.

Jesus did not teach that I have a "Christ within myself." He did not even teach "the kingdom of heaven is within you." (the word translates better as "among you"). I am not for a moment denying the reality of God's presence within, but I don't think you can boil Christianity down to that message, say that Buddha taught the same, and that anyone who's a serious spiritual student will see things that way and that's that.

Maybe a little less dogmatism in your approach?

That's hardly the same thing as using a fulcrum with weights! Your analogy limps; actually, one of its legs is broken! And what a claim you are making, here, for kinesiology--dogmatically so, I might add! Care to back it up?

If you read Hawkins work, which is incredibly more thorough than I can or care to express here, you will see that scientifically , kinesiology is sound. This is not dogma. Buy the book, it's only $20.00, what are you scared of? If it still doesn't jive, at least I'll respect that you made a valid attempt at making an educated decision about it rather than a judgment based on hearsay.

Mild ad hominem, considering that you know absolutely nothing about my spiritual search, which I would suggest to you has been "serious." You also seem to be insinuating that serious spiritual seekers will agree with you; that's quite an assumption!

It is easy for me to discern this understanding through your rigid conclusions of Buddhism and Christianity. I am not insinuating that all serious spiritual seekers will agree with me at this point in the evolution of their consciousness, it is a fact however, that all ADVANCED spiritual seekers will agree with me. It is an experiential reality that is undeniable once your own consciousness is freed of the blocks to that realization.

I was talking about their teachings. (And, yes, I know Buddha was not a donkey! )

I was not talking about their teachings when I made the reference to the rose. I was talking about the men. The men both calibrate at 1000. What they represent is the highest level of consciousness that a human can achieve on this level.

That's not Christianity, friend! The Cross is smack-dab in the center of our spirituality. Accepting the sufferings that come with living a life of love is the way of the cross and it's the way to resurrected life.

There are the teachings of the Christianity of today and then there is what Jesus taught. They are different. While he was alive, what would he have had to say about an event that had yet to happen, namely his crucifixion? In the three years of his living ministry on Earth, of what value would their have been in teaching of a time of suffering on a cross? I surely haven't read anything in my Bible about those teachings.

The Bible was put together 400 years after Jesus died, at the Council of Nicea. Is it not reasonable that the men who banded this new book didn't have the spiritual understanding needed to weed out what Jesus' true teachings were? The massive rifts in Christianity are further evidence that even now the church doesn�t have what it takes to understand the Truths Jesus was teaching. Christ did not invent the Christianity of today. The fallible men who built the church they named after Christ, built the church of today. It is the responsibility of the serious spiritual seeker to see past the constructions of a religion and into the Truth of Spirituality. The living God is Here and Now and not in the dead words of language or ideas from days gone by.

There is only One reality and it is undeniable and glaringly obvious once you experience that state. I can tell you that ice cream tastes great, everyone can tell you that. You might even choose to believe that 'ice cream tastes great' is a true statement. But until you taste ice cream for yourself, you don't know that to be experientially true. You can KNOW ABOUT ice cream tasting great, but until you taste it you don't KNOW it to be true. There is infinite distance between KNOWING and KNOWING ABOUT.

All advanced spiritual students and masters do see things the same way. They do, because they�ve come to the source of all, seen it to be what they Truly are and rested in that state. At home, finally...

I do not know about this Truth, I know this Truth. The same knowing is in you and you�re guaranteed to find it because it is inseparable from who you Really are.