I read the Philip Jenkins article in Atlantic Monthly yesterday afternoon. It was extremely interesting. I would not be considered affluent by the standards of my city and country, but on the world stage, I have so much.

I also live in a city with a large immigrant population from various parts of the world. And I've already seen some of what is talked about in the article.

In my mind, while I accept the notion that God gives us "all" so much to be thankful for (grace?), it also seems to me that many people on this earth have needs and yearning that are not being addressed by current institutions (religious or otherwise).

Also interesting to me is the fact that, racially, Caucasions dominate the Northern Hemisphere and people of color predominate in the Southern Hemisphere (it's unclear to me who actually "dominates" the Southern Hemisphere, given historic colonialism and current debt practices, etc.)

It was a very thought-provoking article. I'm not sure where to go with it personally (but I will be making an effort to figure that out), and I wonder how often the message will have to be given before it is taken seriously. I think Philip Jenkins is being prophetic, and we all know what a hard road it is for prophets.

Has anyone else read the article?

I tried getting it on line, but it wouldn't download (or took longer than I had to give), so I purchased it. If you don't want to purchase it or have trouble with extended reading from a computer, Atlantic Monthly should be in most libraries, which is where I do a lot of my magazine reading.

shanti

I just noticed that I've been "promoted" from "junior member" to "member."

Why thank you. Do I get a raise?

shanti

Back again (sorry for so many posts in a row).

I remembered that Philip Jenkins separates the Pacific Rim from the Southern Hemisphere, and since I have friends in Australia who would take me to task for failing to mention this, I do so now. Australia is certainly not a third world country.

shanti

Shanti,

Thanks for the update re AM piece, etc. I'm going to look for the magazine this week while I'm in Atlanta. Moreover, this thread is certainly adding to my book reading list. Wanda, thanks for the post re the desert fathers (and brothers, sisters). I've been fascinated by them for years, have done some reading, and my all-time favorite vacation would be a retreat at St. Catherine's, the ancient monastery in the Sinai. Which brings up, incidentally, another book recommendation, Walking the Bible by Bruce Fieler (sp?). I couldn't put it down.

Wanda, I also walk the Episcopal path, though I certainly have my issues with the church org, and also the old-line thinking one encounters in some of the more traditional parishes. As a Protestant, though, what this particular denomination offers me, as compared to my Methodist roots, is communion at every service, a ritual I find I can't live with out, and a richer, in my opinion, theological tradition. And I venture into Catholic masses all the time, though the detriment is not being able to take communion. (though there are two priests that I'm friendly with, have had long chats with re spiritual matters who will let me take communion with them. But that's the exception, not the rule.)

Re Shanti's promotion to member over junior member, we'll have to let Phil explain that distinction. I have no idea!

Just in case readers don't have time to go to the website for the Philip Jenkins article or can't get ahold of Atlantic Monthly, I thought I would list a couple of the quotes highlighted by the magazine editors:

"We stand at a historical turning point, the author argues--one that is as epochal for the Christian world as the original Reformation. Around the globe Christianity is growing and mutating in ways that observers in the West tend not to see..."

"The changes that Christian reformers are trying to inspire in North America and Europe run contrary to the dominant cultural movements in the rest of the Christian world."

After reading the article, I think that the author is not necessarily saying that change will be "bad" but that it is "unnoticed" and will be "unexpected" and seems to be happening in places with high concentrations of Christians living outside the mainstream of Christianity. He feels the changes will have a profound effect on secular society.

Further, he feels the evidence shows that these brewing changes come from orthodoxy rather than liberal Christianity. He points out that people who are living with war and starvation often seek the solace of religion that promises a "triumph of righteousness".

Also, he mentions the fact that there are quite a few people in our world who share a history of belief in witchcraft and sorcery and that these beliefs are being intwined with Christianity, producing hybrids.

Although I do not have a background in theology, I find Philip Jenkins' ideas sociologically interesting. During the course of my activities today, this article keeps coming to mind. I think it will take a while for it all to sink in, and I await input from others who have read it.

shanti

linda, shanti, and all,

The AM article by Philip Jenkins is excellent!

linda, thank you for calling it to my attention.

The words that come to mind are, "Now, I understand." Jenkins does a very thorough job of sharing a global perspective of Christianity with us. He sheds a new light on events unfolding and helps to increase our understanding of those events.

The division between what Jenkins terms Christianity of the South and Christianity of the North also seems to relate to wisdom, literacy, and education. Questions of the location of authentic authority, interpretations,
and the proper administration of authority are all crucial issues.

Thank you Philip Jenkins! This article is one piece of work!

Amber, I agree that Philip Jennkins is to be thanked. Not only has he written a very interesting article, but he has added much to this discussion thread as well.

I have put in a request at the library for his book. I'm looking forward to reading more of what he has to say. I'm also looking at my own assumptions and at what is going on in my city as well as the world.

Of course, we will all take something different away from reading Philip Jenkins. Even though I can't call myself a Christian, I can call myself a person of faith, and so I can relate to the article in that manner.

In a way, I think one of the messages I take from the article is that I must be cautious that I do not allow my own worldview to become "reality" when there are so many people have different experiences than I am having.

For example, although I live on a modest income, I have a well balanced diet. This may seem like something very small when we talk about spirituality, but if I were hungry or had a disease because of a poor diet or had to walk for three days to get a bowl of cornmeal, I might be looking in a completely different place for my spiritual needs to be met.

Much "food for thought" in the article!

shanti

Given these general characterizations of Christianity in its regional manifestations, one is still left with the basic claims of Christianity: e.g., Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again, and the core theological insights which flow from this proclamation. And so when I ask the question, "Why Christianity?" I am assuming that at some point those claims need to be considered, for they are at the heart of Christianity--much moreso than its cultural and institutional manifestations, or whether a particular local community seems friendly or not. Christianity in its essence is belief in the core Christian message, which virtually all the Churches agree on to a very large extent. This belief is closely tied to an encounter with the living Christ, Who is the the reason Christianity exists in the first place. Everything else is secondary to this core faith encounter, for Christianity really makes no sense without this. In fact, it doesn't even really exist without it, but is only some sort of shell of a movement or organization not too terribly different from any other humanitarian enterprise.

Thoughts? Responses?

Hey Phil....nice to have you back, btw ,

I agree with your statements here. The core of Christianity is indeed Christ. This is a personal, not an institutional, relationship. In realizing that He died for ME...He arose again for ME....He will come again to establish His kingdom for ME ...my very existence is changed. It's almost like being in two different worlds. My flesh has to function and breath on this planet earth. It has to interact with society, make a living, pay the bills, deal with the "world". But the spirit part of me....ah...now there is where I live . "Home" is the spiritual center of my being that's brought about only through Christ and His accomplishment in reconciling me back to God.

I've seen athiests state that being Christian is all about having heaven, having rewards in heaven, living the "good life" in heaven..etc. But that isn't what it is. Being Christian is coming home to that place our spirit longs for from our birth. It's the interaction between me and God and between me and my brothers and sisters in Christ who are connected by the Holy Spirit which is the cord that binds us together. It's moving beyond the illusional depth of "flesh and bone" to the true depth of "spirit and truth". For me, that is "why" Christianity. Jesus Christ has made all this possible and no longer is God "up there" but rather "right here".

BTW, I'm reading Wisdom of the Sadhu by Sadhu Sundar Singh. If ever there was a "wise" man about Christ, he certainly is very close to the top of the mark.

God bless,
Terri

In considering why some may be drawn to Christianity, even if they would not at the same time proclaim the Kerygma and may not have otherwise been initiated into the Sacred Mysteries, I commend to you this particular Jungian view of Christ by Jerry Wright: Christ: A Symbol of the Self . It does not take long to read and is not difficult to understand.

When I first read it, it struck me as a minimalist view of who Jesus was/is, and not a bad one, at least in that regard. Still, for me, it seemed to leave the age old question begging, that being that if Jesus and his very first followers, men and women, were great individuals and great moral teachers, then why, at the same time, were they not either liars or lunatics insofar as the Resurrection Event was concerned? In other words, how could they get almost everything else about human life and human living right while getting both the fact of the Resurrection and the claim that Jesus was God wrong?

At any rate, I can see why existentialists and nonbelievers and analytical psychologists are drawn to the Man and find, in Him, relevance for their own journeys of individuation and integration. For those of us who do believe, who are proclaimers of the Gospel and stewards of the Sacred Mysteries, how might we give prophetic witness to the journey of transformation that transcends individuation processes, that is accompanied by signs and wonders from which the world can draw compelling inferences such as He is Risen! ???

pax tibi,
jb

I am new to this board. Just registered today. But was struck by this post, "Why Christianity?", because I have been struggling with this question for quite some time. I am in my early forties. I became Christian when I was 18 years old in an evangelical church with all the experiences of being "born-again" and subsequent training in bible studies, disciple-ship training and so on. I have never been ,though one who can accept doctrines and theology without question. One thing , though ,was quite certain. I believed in the Loving, Absolute God, and believed Christ to be my Savior. However, over the years, and especially beginning mid 30's, I have deviated from believing in the doctrines of trinity, virgin birth, salvation through belief in christ only, and inerrancy of the bible.

I no longer find sunday church services meaningful. I can no longer subscribe to what is being promulgated in my church. I am going through a major revision in my thoughts about God and spirituality. I seriously ask myself, what does it exactly mean to call myself christian. How shall I live? How am I different, as a christian, from people of other religious faith who live more decent, and loving lives. I hope I find myself back to my christian root. But for a time being, I feel lost.

Miryung, welcome!

I think the kind of searching you're describing is very healthy and it's usually inevitable. I hope this thread and others on the forum can be helpful to you. You might especially check out the Christian Mysteries forum as I developed it to provide a kind of adult-level update on Christian theology.

Please feel free to share your questions and doubts here.

Before I posted my initial posting, I didn't have time to read all the threads on this topic, but I have had time to do that since. And I found it very helpful. If someone were to ask me whether I am Christian, I'd say, I am. In my heart, what I think I am seeking is to better understand the core beliefs of christian message, is it called the Kergma? Christ the God, his birth, death, and resurrection for my salvation. And I would really like to be able to articulate "Why Christianity" as oppose to any other religion. At the same time, I am of the thought that there may be "salvation" in other religions as well. Someone's explanantion of "Christocentric inclusivism" helped a lot. Was it Johnboy who stated that within christian sect, Roman Catholicism is the most inclusive, and I found that very helpful. As a matter of fact, almost all of my devotional readings since I been on this path of questioning and searchings have been written by catholics. As a matter of fact, I have attended masses a catholic church in my neighborhood. I felt that there was where I was better encountering Christ as oppose to services in my evangelical church. I don't know, maybe I am going somewhere with this.

I have a family who's been going to church all our life. I have had thoughts about exploring catholicism, but i think what about my kids and hus., it became bit complicated. But, I am having a very difficult time attending my church, that's my dilemma. Perhaps, when the kids are out of high school, I could be more free to do so.

Phil, I find your statement about the centrality of christ and his death and resurrection to be a pivotal issue for christianity in affecting one's worldview and one's finding meaning affirming. I need to get back to the basics, and plan to visit this site often as possible. Thanks for all the threads, they are really helpful.

Miryung, I'm glad you've found it helpful. There's been some good sharing and searching on this thread. Thanks for contributing to it.

I am going to Rant in the oppossite direction. I have seen the damage and disconnection eastern has religion caused in many of my friends lives. No I have always been drawn to Western Christianity not as an institution but because it is true. I also am drawn to it because of the balance of western mysticism in characters such as Francis and Benedict. The idea was not to empty oneself into perfect nothingness but to become full of Christ's love and in the case of Benedict live in that balance between mystery and the material world. I do not see this in the East which I would include the wild eye monastics of the desert.
I grew up a Fundamentalist and converted to Catholicism via Anglicanism. But I have been involved in various movements in and outside of the Church. I think the other thing that draws me to Christianity is the qualitative difference between Christianity and world's other religions. Islam, Paganism and the other world religions would not have the charities they do know had it not been for Christianity's infleunce. There would be not equivalent to the modern Hospital today had the Church not done it first, I could go on but we know the Church influenced many fields of study, inquiry, politics, even the United States Constitution is influenced in part by Christian values. I am Christian because it makes sense it is earthy sloppy and human I do not have to empty myself and all that is required is I accept my powerlessness and need for Christ and turn to him his mother and my brothers and sisters and ask for help. I do not need enlightment or the path I need Christ, The Trinity the great three in one.

"The core of Christianity is indeed Christ. This is a personal, not an institutional, relationship."

Yes Terri, I agree with you. Christ for me is the centre gravity of Christianity. I was born in a catholic family and grew up with this belief. When I reach adult age I shifted with the church and begun my own way. I have spent many years in probing those big questions alone: What is the meaning of life? What is Truth? I tried to get an answer by reading many philosophical, religious and political books and then I begun meditate without knowing how to meditate. Lastly I arrived at one point where reality prevailed to me in unexpected way. At this point, in 1998, I encountered mysterious light. You can read a brief description of it in kundalini thread. Between 1998 and now I thought I'm in a spiritual path of East but one significant thing happened in May this year. First my kundalini arose at the base of my spine and right direct after this incidence during my daily meditation time something unexpected and special thing occurred. I encountered Christ together with Maria. Of course not physically but my higher being became very attracted to the image of Christ and Maria and something unusual power poured into my being from the head of Christ. Since then I have a lively contact both with Maria and Christ and through them opened many new gates. Now I began to experience many mysterious things and as the same time began to understand the deep mystery of Christ and the symbols of Catholicism. It is through this mysterious way that I become the follower of Christ. I'm not sure whether I will call myself Christian in its conventional meaning. I have a lively contact with Christ, he leads me, and he fed me with his powerful energy. Attending Mass and following the regulation of church can be helpful for many Christians but for me the lively contact I have with Christ is more than anything else.

Hi I am not Terri but I disagree with your idea that Western Christianity is a just a bunch of regulation and rule. I have the advantage of growing up fundamentalist and being involved in the Charismatic movement and have seen the beautiful masses of high Anglicanism and do not see the regulations you are talking about. What I see is Jesus coming into my heart and ministering to me. It is not some kind of cosmic force that makes me feel God but a Personal God who loves me and died for me so I can live with him in paradise. The message of Christianity is one of powerlessness because we do not deserve Salvation but he offers it to his creation freely. The father who love me no matter. God became man and dwelt among us this central doctrine of Christianity is not symbolism but actually happened Jesus God came down and became like one of us for me the incarnation has always brought me closer to surrender. I love the Jesus of the Church not some concontion I can conjur up in some new age seance or trance.

brjaan, I didn't say western christianity is a bunch of regulation and rule. Please read again what I'm posted. What I wanted to say is I have a personal relationship with Christ but it doesn't mean I'm againist Church. I stated above attending Mass and following the regulation of Church can be important for many people. Who knows it can be important for me one day. So, I have no any concluding statement about it I just simply share my ideas. I believe this is a forum where we can share our ideas freely and I have no any intention to offend anybody.

I apologize I miss read what you posted.

Why is the earth the exact distance from the sun for humans to exist? Why do we have a circular orbit rather than eliptical as the others? Why just the right thickness and content of atmosphere. with an ozone layer for protection? A loving intelligence
behind the design? A ghost in the machine?

Why are there 333 specific messianic prophecies
fulfilled in detail in the life of the historical Jesus? What are the mathematical probabilities of even a few of them coming to pass hundreds of years in the future?

How did the cannon of scripture come into existence and how was it preserved so meticulously
that only .5% differential can be found in the manuscripts?

Isn't it interesting that Koina Greek, arguably the most precise language for transmitting this truth and the Roman roads just happened to be in place to spread the word? Coincidence?

Why are there 30,000 archaelogical sites which do not contradict the record of people, places and things in the bible?

How come the evolutionists are very squirmy and em-bare-assed by the absence of transitional forms and the irreducible complexity of the human cell. Could time and chance produce something like this in 6 billion years or any amount of time?

A few things to chew on, but I really feel that it comes down to faith rather than intellect. First I believed because it answered my deepest needs and longings for truth, meaning, beauty and forgiveness, especially forgiveness

Plus,I get all these brothers and sisters from every walk of life.

caritas and veritas,

fundamichael

<*))))><

"Why Christianity?"

That's the question I'm currently wrestling with. I have narrowed down my choices to Christianity or Sufism. Someone convice me, quick!

There is nothing like Christ's and the Blessed Mother's love, so intimate, close, and of a different quality than sufism. I want to be a Christian, so badly, but not belong to a church! Is that possible. Probably not.

So I turn to Islam, which was the religion I was born into, I feel the impersonal love of sufism, as different from Christ. Christ and the Blessed Mother do not bring the ecstatic quality that I percive in sufism, but something so special, so close to my heart; I can only call it poverty of spirit, or humility. This is the ground of being as I see it...but why can't I just be with Christ; do I have to be baptized and all that Sorry about my whining...but I'm really praying for guidance and recieving none, just blessingful grace, but nothing more.

So these are my two choices at present. And believe me, I wouldn't have chosen Christianity if I hadn't felt the poverty aspect which is utterly unique and indefinable.

Huuuu

Asher

Asher, keep reading and searching. Go through the material on the Christian Mysteries forum to learn more about Christianity and how Christ has dealt with the brokenness of the human race. Join a study group in a Church or read up on what baptism is, what the Church is, how baptism initiates one into the life of the Church, why being a member of a Christian community has always been considered an essential aspect of Christianity.

Somewhere in all of this, one should evaluate the truth claims among the world religions. Do you really believe what Islam teaches? Do you believe the Christian message? Do not go where you do not sense the truth leading. In the end, it is the truth that sets us free.

Adult conversions are a process and can take a long time, especially for the intellectual type.
My sponsor/spiritual director and I went to work on a woman for five years. She was smart and complicated and the whole thing took about five years. I was really giving up and at the end of my rope when one day she said she had become a Christian. Hope I never go through that again, but I would.

If you become a Christian mystic with an interest in Sufi practice as well, then you could be a conduit to many who share your backround. Many will no doubt be thrust into the harvest.

I would recommend a former Muslim apologist,
but I can't think of one at the moment. Try a websearch on Chritian/Islam/apologetics/dialogue and see what you come up with...

Christianity has always been a religion for the outcast and the failure. The self sufficient need not apply. My best qualification and what recommends me most is my history of rebellion,
pride, sloth, envy, greed, fear, guilt, shame,
lust and gluttony. I begin with the knowledge of my wretchedness and despair and then I am willing to listen to the Master's solution.


caritas,

mm

<*)))))><

Micheal--

I like this very much:

quote:

_______________________________________________

Christianity has always been a religion for the outcast and the failure. The self sufficient need not apply.

________________________________________________

Very nicely put. This brings to mind the "Fools for Christ's sake" those who lived the unitive life and sought suffering to get rid of the traces of egotism that still existed. It also brings to mind the story of Brother Masseo, in "The Little Flowers of St. Francis" Masseo was always rapt in prayer and Francis asked him to give a sermon. Masseo was shy, though, and of a contemplative temperment, and resisted following Francis's plea to him. Finally Francis commanded him for the love of rule of obedience to proceed to the pulpit and give the sermon naked. Masseo did just that to peoples laughter, jeers. Francis in the meanwhile reprimended himself for asking this of Masseo so he too stripped and went to the sermon and partook the humiliation. But when the people heard Francis' words, like doves from his lips, all were rapt in awe, as the story goes.

Christianity has always has this emphasis on suffering for the love of God, for humiliation, and most importantly, for humility and poverty of spirit.

Phil thank you for your advice. I will visit some churches and read more, and also explore other possibilities.

Huuuuu

Asher

It has been impressed on me lately that what is most significant about Christianity is that it is a religion that connects the human and the divine "in Christ." I know we've said that in one way or another on this and other threads, but I think it needs to be stated explicitly. It is this Christic dimension that not only enables the human to connect with God, but to do so in a manner that forms human nature to incarnate God as Jesus did. IOW, when we say that Jesus saved the human race, we mean that he has provided, in his own person, a means for re-forming human nature so that we may live life more abundantly (Jn. 10, 10) as fully human beings, saved from the power of sin, alive in the Spirit he gives us.

Maybe the critical issue among the world religions, then, is not which one can best assist the human in contacting the divine; let's concede for the sake of argument that they all do this in some manner. Maybe the distinguishing issue is what happens to human beings after they have contacted the divine. What kind of morality, spirituality, intellectual formation, etc. enable this ongoing contact in a manner that truly develops human nature . . . human culture . . . creation? Every religious tradition has responses to this question; even those traditions which maintain that such formation is unimportant are answering it in the negative. When examined in the light of these questions, the differences among the world religions (on the whole) are most obvious.