Here are a few relevant sites:
This one doesn't see much biblical basis for it.
This one doesn't, either.
Nor this one.
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I think the criticism about it being characteristic of certain teachers and meetings is important. That's been my experience as well. It's almost as if people expect it to happen, and maybe that expectation contributes to the phenomenon.
One must judge the phenomenon in terms of the fruits, not just for individuals, but for the reputation of renewal. I'm sure some individuals are helped, but I think renewal is not. It's much more controversial than "tongues" and signifies very little other than energy-power.
I've noted elsewhere that what's much more common is for the Spirit to honor where we are and to work with our human nature gently and persistently. "Slayings" communicate a contrary message, and might even leave some wondering if they've really received the Spirit if they haven't been slain.
I guess you can tell I'm not too impressed by this phenomenon. Doesn't mean I think anyone who's into it is totally out in left-field, however.
No, Ajoy, I never felt like I lost memory. I don't know of anybody who has, but I haven't really asked around much.
Good points, Phil. Other things which begin with genuine Spirit involvment are often turned into a circus, misunderstood, or even corrupted.
Shasha, When it happened to me, about 15-20 yrs. ago I remained conscious and did not lose my memory. The thing I remember most is that I felt very relaxed and close to God for hours after.
Thank you Shasha and Katy for commenting about
Very much appreciated.
In the times that I've experienced being "slain in the spirit" there was no loss of memory other than being completely in the Moment. There was a detachment from connection to the physical (but never had my body fall forward on my face). It was like my consciousness was separated from everything and bathed in the Love of God.
Well, I got MacNutt's "Overcome by the Spirit." I'd like to read it and get back to this discussion. I see that he writes on many of the points Phil, Stephen, and Caneman have brought up (not the kundalini issue).
Thus far, I can see MacNutt presents a lot of testimony and support for the idea that being slain is a genuine Holy Spirit encounter (though he recognizes, as we've noted, there are those who do in for "show" and ministers who turn it into a circus). He also presents that being slain is reported "throughout Church history, including in the Protestant revivals of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries,and over centuries of Catholic tradition." Oftentimes, there is not laying on of hands but just preaching or praying for somebody (and in one case of a Catholic priest, sprinkling of Holy water) has reportedly caused people to topple over.
These testimonies are consistent with a few of my experiences in which I've felt a Holy power knock me down just upon somebody calling on the Lord's Presence and even when there is no expectation of being slain (like the time I was just having communion with a friend outside on my deck).
There is a famous legend of the miracle of Telpp�s-meadow circling around among Finnish Christians, which is related to "Slain in the Spirit". What makes this story interesting is the fact that it seemed to happen like out of the thin air, without people expecting anything. People were hay-making
It happened in Savo 1796. This miraculous event marked the beginning of a revival called k�rttil�isyys, also called revivalism (her�nn�isyys).
It happened in Telpp�s-meadow in the village called Savoj�rvi, while people were hay-making. All the people suddenly fell down like an huge invisible hand had pushed them to the ground. Everybody felt like it was a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. During this event people also experienced speaking in tongues and saw visions.
I have no personal experience of being slain in the Spirit. But my opinion based on what I've seen and read about it is that in some cases it can be a genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
How are you? I'm with you here. There are genuine occasions when the Holy Spirit comes to a group of people causing the phenomena you decribe. It happened in the middle of the 20th century on the Hebridean island of Lewis. What strikes me is that no one in either case was particularly seeking this. Today, people are hungry for these experiences at the expense of the more genuine and subtle work of inner transformation that the Spirit is engaged in.
I'm doing relatively fine It's interesting to notice that this phenomena can happen without people seeking it.
It is quite obvious to me that if someone delibarately seeks these kind of things it can be just his own mind playing tricks with his own body. What I understand based on my exploration of body-mind relationship (while using my own body as a laboratory) is the fact that you can cause all kinds of things happen in your body through the power of mind/suggestion.
Generally speaking Holy Spirit's manifestations are more gentle and subtle. Atleast that's how I've experienced it.
Welcome TTB. Nice to "meet you."
I didn't know about Savo 1796 revival. Thank you for sharing this story and your comments.
Coincidentlly, it turns out that I will be going down to Florida for one week, to Francis MacNutt's Christian Healing Ministries. I may hear from him directly on this subject, and I look forward to continuing this discussion.
much peace to you all!
For those, like me, not familiar with MacNutt, see,
Safe journey, and please bring us a good report.
The Welsh revival inspired me, and is still sending ripples.
This world is ripe for more of them, sovereign moves of God through th Holy Spirit, lest any should boast.
Thanks for the well wishes for my journey, Michael.
My time with the MacNutt's was very fruitful. I learned a lot that I needed to know about prayer ministry, and I got a good "cleaning" myself.
Judith is a psychotherapist and serves as a terrific role model for being a Spirit-filled servant to the broken-hearted. They really believe in taking time for inner healing of abuse/trauma, etc, and this is the piece I was looking for.
I met some really beautiful people, down-to-earth. One woman shared with me that she received Baptism of the Holy Spirit and began speaking in tongues while she was hanging laundary outside. She didn't know what it was when it happened. She said, "I was just praising God and worshipping and then suddenly this other language came out of my mouth!"
Francis and Judith are not into being "stars." They are passionate about healing, but not sensationalists. Although, sensational healings seem to happen around them all the time. There were people who "rested in the Spirit" as they like to call it, during prayer for Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but it was very low-key.
I want to share some pieces from MacNutt's book on this subject, but gotta fly for now.
much peace to you all, dear ones!
Thanks Shasha, I look forward to reading more. I like those MacNutts.
Francis MacNutt addresses many of the dangers and misconceptions associated with being slain in the Spirit that some of you mention in this discussion.
The power of suggestion � there are a percentage of people who respond to suggestion strongly, but he doesn�t think that accounts for the majority of people who are knocked out by the Power of God. �� resting in the Spirit cannot be due altogether to the power of suggestion, since people so often fall without ever having heard of it before.� Francis reports that many ministers and some priests, too, were surprised when they saw this happening to people in their prayer gatherings.
Some ministers who need proof of their holiness probably give off that message to folks who comply by falling down. Also, people feel falling is a sign of their holiness and may be tempted by this pride issue to fake fall. Francis recognizes this but concludes:
��I believe that if the minister of prayer is a committed Christian, with reasonably pure motives, and if the people seeking healing have a basically pure motivation, most of what we see take place will be under the influence of the Holy Spirit�accompanied by the mixture of psychological phenomena that we will always find in our fallen human condition.� p. 26
What is the fruit of being slain by the Spirit?
Francis has received hundreds of letters and personal testimonies of people sharing about the great blessings they felt they received by being overcome by the Spirit. Many report great peace and love and communion with God. Many report receiving instant healings or important revelations. A young woman told me she realized that she should forgive her father and felt graced to do so during the few moments she was resting in the Spirit. She was near tears just telling this story as it was obviously a deeply transforming experience for her.
Deliverance from Evil Spirits � �Most extraordinary of all is when we find evil spirits departing as someone is overcome in the Spirit. As I said earlier, resting in the Spirit is ordinarily quiet and peaceful, but occasionally we see an eruption of demonic resistance.� There is often crying out and convulsions as in Mark 1:26: The evil spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek. �When we pray briefly for people in a healing line, perhaps one in fifty will exhibit such manifestations. Afterward, however, twice that many will report that they felt something �lift off� or �depart� at the moment of prayer, even though there were no outwardly observable signs. p. 64
I witnessed this one time during a Mahesh Chavda meeting in which he had invited Chris Harvey to pray for us. I was standing in a long line with about 3 dozen others. I went down like a ton of bricks when Chris came near me (I don�t even think he touched me). The man immediately to my right fell down beside me and then, to everyone�s surprise (even horror), he began wailing and wailing in the strangest way I�ve ever heard, a mix of wailing and roaring. It was like a deep, supernatural cry, not merely a human cry. Oh my God, it sends chills through me just remembering it. He was clearly being delivered, it felt to me, of some deep torment. I wanted to talk with that man, but he never returned for the rest of the conference. That night, I tell you the truth, I slept in the Spirit for the entire 6 hours of sleep. There is nothing like it�being literally asleep but aware of floating in heaven at the same time. And I felt an incredible peace for a few weeks after that.
Francis writes: �In summary, I find that resting in the Spirit is a marvelous ministry gift that often leads people to experience the love of Jesus, lasting healing and deliverance. Evangelists Charles and Frances Hunter reached a similar conclusion�
�We do not pretend to understand this supernatural manifestation of God�s power�The first time it ever happened to us was shocking! While we were praying for a woman at the alter�she had been touched by the power of God and was lying on the floor. A short time later, this recurred. Again, only once during a service. Then a few months later it happened again. Each time it came as a complete surprise to us. Neither of us felt any special anointing�nothing. Then came February 27, 1973, El Paso, Texas. The power of God fell in a mighty way. The power could be almost heard crackling as a Southern Baptist church had its own day of Pentecost. Somewhere around 100 people fell under the power of God. Probably the most surprised of all the people there were the Hunters. We had never seen anything like this happen in our ministry and certainly couldn�t understand it, but we discovered an interesting fact. God often does a supernatural work in healing, delivering or cleansing while a person is under the power.� p. 73.
Phil � It�s hard to separate the individual fruits of being slain from what is good for renewal in general since so many people who have been slain in the Spirit are transformed and go off to have fruitful ministries.
And slayings were present in throngs during the preaching (not laying on of hands) of several revivalists which likely contributed to getting the message out that God was present in power during those meetings.. Francis writes: �In summary it seems that the preaching in the Protestant Church that has had the most profound and lasting effect in both England and the United States has also been accompanied by listeners being overcome in the Spirit. The greatest preachers in the English-speaking world from the mid-eighteenth century to the end of the nineteenth century all regularly saw people fall over in their services. Among Anglicans, John Wesley; among Methodists, George Whitefield and Francis Asbury; among Congregationalists, Jonathan Edwards; among Presbyterians, Charles Finney and Barton Stone�and of course numerous Quakers and Shakers�.It is apparent, too, that most of the evangelists whose preaching was attended by this phenomena had previously received a special empowering (the baptism of the Spirit).� p. 112.
That�s all for now�
Thanks, Shasha. This thread has become a good resource on a somewhat controversial topic. I think the input from the MacNutts that you bring here is very fine, and trustworthy. They've had much more exposure to this through the years than I have and are in a much better position to evaluate the fruit of the Spirit in this regard.
The sense I have is that the positive manifestations of this phenomenon are a kind of sign, especially to unbelievers, of the reality of God's presence and power. The resting described seems akin to experiences of mystical ecstasy.
excuse my ignorance please
what does this have to do with gods love?
love doesn't make people fall over
fear does that
Like a sheep that rolls onto its back when a gun goes off
thats a fear response, not love
Daniel, did you read the thread?
i can explain all these phenomenon if you would like
your looking for a white christ right?
This is all very interesting...I have never experienced the "slain in the spirit" phenomena but have seen it alot. Once last year, I was at a healing training and they did an impartation at the end. My father (now deceased, "sigh") and I went up to receive. Neither of us fell, but many others did. The women leading this, Carol Dew, had me pray for another person (to impart the healing power of God) to show that I had received it even though it appeared nothing happened. So when I prayed for this person (i think I might have lightly touched his hands, but I don't remember) he soon fell down. It was bizarre to be on that end of it!
Of course, there is a lot of fakery and pretending and self-delusion in all religious arenas, but that doesn't negate the new ways God chooses to move among us, as you have already stated above.
For me, I am looking into the energy, soul power v. spirit power issues. This is a new exploration for me and I am not a mystic, so I don't really have any experiential knowledge to go from. Thanks for sharing yours!
Hi again Michelle,
Some of us have asked the same questions you do above. I'm reading a chapter in Derek Prince's book (Blessings or Curses) about praying in a "soulish" way. This is a bit troubling to me because he is quite sure we can have our prayers answered but be misguided as they can come from our own selfish or ignorant perspectives. He gives a few examples. One has to do with a father praying that his daughter not marry a non-Christian to whom she is engaged, they end up breaking up owing to his soulish prayer. Another one is about a church group who actually band together praying against a former pastor's new wife. She has two miscarriages, etc. He thinks our "prayers" can be answered, but not by God if we are not rooted in selfless love for others. But who can do this perfectly all the time...?? Keeps me humble, that's for sure...
Shasha, does this not suggest a spiritual level at which humans can interact and influence one another that is not of the divine? Our exchange of thoughts and energies at this (metaphysical) level can explain many things, including psychic phenomena, synchronicities and some aspects of intercessory prayers, including psychic healings. As you're noting, it can even provide a medium for the communication of an efficacious evil intent, especially if this is amplified by evil spirit. It can keep us humble to know that our thoughts and desires produce hidden effects that might do good but also harm. All the more reason to consecrate ourselves and our actions to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I agree Phil, seems this would explain many of the result found within witchcraft...not the illusions of stage magic, but the very real results of witchcraft and magik, that produce such phenomena as telekenisis, telepathy, curses that have physical results etc.
regarding my previous post, would anybody agree or disagree with what I said, i am interested in the source of magic, wondering how it can have real effects in this world?
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