Thanks, Phil.

I'm not quite sure what I'm doing/describing. I am undergoing some therapy right now.

There's a wonderful book called "Structures of Subjectivity" (Atwood and Stolorow) which talks about the dialectic between the analyst and the patient. It basically makes an important link between phenomenology and psychoanalysis. Previously, I was reluctent of getting therapy, but it seems to intensify the movement towards a ground of being which is more in tune with ones higher self and the unloading of the unconscious.

I think many will agree that as soon as begins to move into "higher" states that there is a backlash in the lower nature. (This is why I don't quite agree with the notion that someone practicing Hinduism for instance will be able to distinguish between a dark(er) energy and this back lash). I do however, think/and feel that there are many different grades of energy within each tradition, and each does have its own realization.

Thanks for the link. Did anyone catch the Vanier talk last night online?

I know this response is interweaving many of my first impulses/reactions to various other threads.

I really like/connect to Aurobindo's conception of the higher mind as preparing the ground for a greater tranformation. This idea, for instance of the truth as still a process (at this level) is something I relate to, this section in particular:

"[t]he relations of idea with idea, of truth with truth are not established by logic but pre-exist and emerge already self-seen in the integral whole."

The notion of psychological-structures (memes?) merging with other structures suggest to me a flexibility/openness/receptivity/capacity for empathy at this level:

"This higher consciousness is a Knowledge formulating itself on a basis of self-existent all-awareness and manifesting some part of its integrality, a harmony of its significances put Into thought-form. It can freely express itself in single ideas, but its most characteristic movement is a mass ideation, a system or totality of truth-seeing at a single view; the relations of idea with idea, of truth with truth are not established by logic but pre-exist and emerge already self-seen in the integral whole. There is an initiation into forms of an ever-present but till now inactive knowledge, not a system of conclusions from premisses or data; this thought is a self-revelation of eternal Wisdom, not an acquired knowledge. Large aspects of truth come into view in which the ascending Mind, if it chooses, can dwell with satisfaction and, after its former manner, live in them as in a structure; but if progress is to be made, these structures can constantly expand into a larger structure or several of them combine themselves into a provisional greater whole on the way to a yet unachieved integrality. In the end there is a great totality of truth known and experienced but still a totality capable of infinite enlargement because there is no end to the aspects of knowledge..."

I cannot help but to see a relation to this decent of quietude/clarity from above the head and the ensuing psychological crises as something akin to the Passive night of the Soul. Aurobindo connects "the higher mind" to the quietude and "controlled passivity" below. To my thinking, since this is still the realm of process, preparing the ground of the being for the decent of "enlightenment," it is a realm which is provides a key to towards a purification to unconscious and an integrality of being. I very much understand this flexibility of the psychological structures at this level (a loosening of any rigidity of these structures, perhaps) and their reformation and enlargement (thinking of the vital force becoming merged with these structures, so the relation between thought and energy becomes more closely aligned. This expansion is most probably the one that is felt in the lower centres); finally their merging with other structures. Here's a bit which describes the purification in Aurobindo's conception:

"This obstacle will be there, -- even though it may progressively diminish, -- at each stage of this greater ascent. In order to allow at all to the higher Light an adequate entry and force of working, it is necessary to acquire a power for quietude of the nature, to compose, tranquillise, impress a controlled passivity or even an entire silence on mind and heart, life and body: but even so a continued opposition, overt and felt in the Force of the universal Ignorance or subliminal and obscure in the substance-energy of the individual's make of mind, his form of Life, his body of Matter, an occult resistance or a revolt or reaffirmation of the controlled or suppressed energies of the ignorant nature, is always possible and, if anything in the being consents to them, they can resume dominance."

This is another thread, but I wanted to know if this author has an accurate understanding of "The Cloud of Unknowing." I am especially interested to hear anyone's opinion of the last paragraph:

"So not only is knowledge of one's existence the greatest sorrow, it is the universal basis of all sorrow. And it is the basis of sorrow for one reason - because it interferes with man's ability to know and feel God (Johnston, 1973, 104), which is all the truly spiritual man wishes to do."

Is this accurate?

"The full title of The Cloud of Unknowing is A Book on Contemplation called The Cloud of Unknowing which is about that cloud within one is united to God. This extended title captures the mostimportant subjects the book discusses - contemplation, unknowing, and union with God. The Cloud of Unknowing is designed to instruct its readers on how to attain union with God through single-minded contemplation. "Unknowing," in the text, seems to have a somewhat ironic double-meaning. On the one hand, there is the explicit use of the word in the actual phrase "cloud of unknowing" which is a barrier separating an ineffable God from man's attempts to understand and participate in Him through direct thought - "a darkness of unknowing that lies between you and your God" (Johnston, 1973, 53). On the other hand, unknowing can be take as the core element of the method of contemplation itself, which is supposed to unify man with God - it is only through forgetting everything, indeed to the point that one becomes unaware of one's own existence, that one becomes unified with God in the "highest and final manner of living which [is] called Perfect" (Johnston, 1973, 46), the manner of living in which one "turns to God with a burning desire for himself alone and rests in the blind awareness of his naked being" (Johnston, 1973, 59). The author of The Cloud of Unknowing uses the term "cloud of forgetting" (Johnston, 1973, 53) to capture this unawareness of selfhood one reaches through contemplation, perhaps in an attempt to try to maintain a distinction between the two types of unknowing.
The union one attains through proper contemplation is apparently not a total union, in which the individual identity of the seeker is lost - it is more like the marriage of man and woman, in which the two become unified in some sense, while nevertheless retaining their individuality. Yet marriage is not a perfect metaphor for the union The Cloud of Unknowing attempts to guide one to; although the seeker and God retain their separate identities, the seeker, once unified with God, no longer has the ability to realize this - in fact, the seeker becomes completely unaware of his own existence, becoming so enthralled with his contact with the divine that every fiber of his conscious being participates fully in the contemplation of God, leaving no room for awareness of self.

This exact kind of self-negation without destroying oneself - the state in which all that one is conscious of is God, is taken by the author of The Cloud of Unknowing to be the path to ultimate goodness and happiness. In the first place, as Christians tend to do, the author defines the good in terms of accordance with and service to God:

Genuine goodness is a matter of habitually acting and responding appropriately in each situation, as it arises, moved always by the desire to please God. He alone is the source of all goodness and if a person is motivated by anything else besides God, even though God is first, then his virtue is imperfect. (Johnston, 1973, 64)
But there is more of a benefit to the contemplator than just acting in accordance with that which is good and right - he is also freed from the greatest sorrow at all, namely, knowledge of his own existence. The author cannot seem to underscore the intrinsic benefit of this enough - "Every man has plenty of cause for sorrow but he alone understands the deep universal reason for sorrow who understands that he is" (Johnston, 1973, 103). So not only is knowledge of one's existence the greatest sorrow, it is the universal basis of all sorrow. And it is the basis of sorrow for one reason - because it interferes with man's ability to know and feel God (Johnston, 1973, 104), which is all the truly spiritual man wishes to do."

"So not only is knowledge of one's existence the greatest sorrow, it is the universal basis of all sorrow. And it is the basis of sorrow for one reason - because it interferes with man's ability to know and feel God (Johnston, 1973, 104), which is all the truly spiritual man wishes to do."

Actually, don't worry about this. I realized today that this is probably the most accurate understanding of our fallen nature that I have come across. I have never read about sinful nature connected to sadness before - a sadness felt in the entirety of the body - the cause of existence. Our human nature, even when it is loved and feels loved, still feels sorrow. Every other Beloved is only a faint and inaccurate representation of Him/Her - a shimmering reflection. I recognize in human love a terrible sadness - at its root, a longing for union with ones self. The body feels this acutely. But at this moment of acutely feeling ones human condition, one opens up to the transcendent from the roots of ones sorrow - if s/he consents.

quote:

Originally posted by Asher:
[qb] "So not only is knowledge of one's existence the greatest sorrow, it is the universal basis of all sorrow. And it is the basis of sorrow for one reason - because it interferes with man's ability to know and feel God (Johnston, 1973, 104), which is all the truly spiritual man wishes to do."

Actually, don't worry about this. I realized today that this is probably the most accurate understanding of our fallen nature that I have come across. I have never read about sinful nature connected to sadness before - a sadness felt in the entirety of the body - the cause of existence. Our human nature, even when it is loved and feels loved, still feels sorrow. Every other Beloved is only a faint and inaccurate representation of Him/Her - a shimmering reflection. I recognize in human love a terrible sadness - at its root, a longing for union with ones self. The body feels this acutely. But at this moment of acutely feeling ones human condition, one opens up to the transcendent from the roots of ones sorrow - if s/he consents. [/qb]

Sorry to take over this thread, as I seem to be selfishly doing. Feel free to ignore these notes. I have been doing a short study of Aurobindo's teachings (as he seems to be coming to me in dreams). One of the interesting aspects of his teaching is that it doesn't use the Kundalini, but relies almost exclusively on the force from above the head. Take for example this letter from a tantrika who Aurobindo refused to take a student because his path (his energy, I assume) does not work in this way. Quite interesting when I compare this to the understandings that were generated from the Holy Spirit/Kundalini distictions on other threads. Again, Eric I hope you will forgive me

"Sri Aurobindo cannot undertake to guide you as your Guru, for the reason that he takes as disciples only those who follow his special path of yoga; your experiences follow a different line. In his yoga there may be an occasional current in the spine as in other nerve channels or different parts of the body, but no awakening of the Kundalini in this particular and powerful fashion. There is only a quiet uprising of the consciousness from the lower centres to join the spiritual consciousness above and a descent of the Divine Force from above which does its own work in the mind and body - the manner and stages varying in each sadhak. A perfect confidence in the Divine Mother and a vigilance to repel all wrong suggestions and influences is the main law of this yoga. Your opening having once been so powerful on the more usual Tantric lines (even without your own will intervening), it is hardly probable that it could now change easily to other lines - any such effort might create a serious disturbance. In speaking of a competent Guru Sri Aurobindo meant one who had himself practised this opening of the centres and become siddha in that line of yoga. It should not be impossible to find one - when one has the call for the Guru, the Guru sooner or later comes. Meanwhile to put away fear and have confidence in the Divine working is indispensable - but no effort should be made to force the pace by concentrated meditation unless you have a guide whom you can trust - a clear guidance from within or a guide from without. The inspiration about the Ida nadi and the subsequent working of the Shakti show that there was an intervention at a critical moment and that the call to it whenever needed is likely to be effective.
In the experiences proper related in your first letter there is absolutely nothing that should have disturbed you - all was quite normal, the usual experiences of the yogin at such a juncture, and very good and powerful, such as do not come except by the grace of the Divine. Probably the opening came after slow invisible preparation as a result of the meditation on the lotus at the top of the head; for that is always an invitation to the Kundalini to awake or for the lower consciousness to rise and meet the higher. The disturbing factors came with the feeling of discomfort in the heart due to some resistance in the physical being which is very often felt and can be overcome by the working of the Force itself and the fear that came afterwards in the seats of the vital Nature, heart, navel etc. But that was no part of the experience; it was an interference by a wrong reaction from the lower or exterior consciousness. If you had not allowed yourself to be disturbed, probably nothing untoward would have distorted the process. One must not get frightened by unusual states or movements or experiences, the yogi must be fearless, abh�; it is absurd to have a fear because one can control one's states; that is a power very much to be desired and welcomed in yoga.
The crises related in the second letter would hardly have come, if there had not been this reaction; but in any case there was the intervention and setting right of the trouble. However these reactions and the fact that the disturbance came show that something in the exterior consciousness is not altogether prepared; it is better to wait and seek for a guide so that ignorant steps or reactions may not bring again a serious trouble or danger. It is all that Sri Aurobindo can say by way of enlightenment and advice. He does not usually intervene with anyone not his disciple, but as your case was an unusual one and your call was great he has given you what light he can on your experience."

actually, I'm not sure if I want to go here.

better to simply discuss spirituality here at Shalommmmmmmmm.

quote:

Originally posted by Asher:
[qb] "So not only is knowledge of one's existence the greatest sorrow, it is the universal basis of all sorrow. And it is the basis of sorrow for one reason - because it interferes with man's ability to know and feel God (Johnston, 1973, 104), which is all the truly spiritual man wishes to do."

Actually, don't worry about this. I realized today that this is probably the most accurate understanding of our fallen nature that I have come across. . . . [/qb]

Yes . . . kind of resonates with Buddha's first noble truth, doesn't it -- that "life is suffering," which is more accurately translated as "sorrowful," as I understand.

I don't think this is really overcome to a significant degree without some degree of contemplative union.

Phil, you missed my Pipe's rant. I'll have to make it more logical and coherent argument at some point, when I have time

Yes, it does resonate with Buddha's first noble truth. I was thinking about this last night and wondering where pride fits in? For instance, one may experience this tremendous sense of sorrow, even one is truly loved, or in a relationship; but one goes back into "seeking" to dull ones senses to this existential sorrow because of ones pride - I was thinking. It is as you say, necessary for the mind to descend in the heart. I guess what I mean by this, is the decent of the Spirit into the mind in order to still it. I think that this movement does begin to deal with pride. Pride dulls ones senses to this sorrow, but also tries to close off this movement towards the transcendent. There is also a pride within sorrow which one has to be aware of. I'm not quite certain what this means. But sorrow (which can effect change) has to be a sorrow that comes from even the fullness of being loved and understood, in my understanding of it. Another point which I would like to understand: the stillness that decends into the mind (the pressure in the crown that is constant and place of natural concentration), usually wrecks havok on the emotions at first, doesn't it? I am beginning to feel that one is "destined" for a transformation when they submit to this pressure. I believe that a certain point there is no choice other than submitting, otherwise there is the possibility of going mad.

I don't know though. The pressure which effects a stillness is often disconcerting. One cannot study, or read at times. At times, I see that it causes the stirring up of the astral realm and subsequent effects on the mind, such a disorientation. At times, it seems to effect ones memory. But on the whole, I can say that this pressure seems to be positive, that it makes one want to become a more integrated person (according to its own laws). I wonder how long it takes to work through the other centres. I notice for instance, when I breathe now, that I feel the energy filling the hara, where there was previously a sense of contraction. At any rate, no need for me to go on about myself. I have to learn how to trust this, and have faith; to release my need for control (seemingly one of the roots of pride).

http://www.cpac.ca/forms/index...mplate_id=188&lang=e

Here's the link to Jean Vanier's recent talk. Never have I met anyone who so palpably exuded the presence of Christ.

thanks Phil,
Re: dealing with knots pressures and being present to them. It seems to very helpful just discussing this all with a psychotherpist and doing certain breathing exercises. I haven't really been bottling it up. I just haven't been understanding where these come from and what they mean. It's been a long 4 years dealing with these pressures. Breathing seems key for me. It seems to unpack some of the energy. Being present may not be the best thing until one is ready. So I agree that one needs to have deep faith (which I am trying to cultivate!)

Thanks again,

yeah sorry to colonize this thread. I'm having fun though!