Are some Christians chasing people away from Christianity? And as Christians, if this problem actually exists, how can we solve that problem?

The Catholic Church in the old days walked into a pagan reality and meshed that reality with Christianity and saved a lot of souls. How can we as modern day Christians do the same thing?

We have a lot of Christians running around in today's world saying to folks that, "If you do not believe exactly as we believe, then you are eternally damned."

Only Jesus can read who's name is in the Book of Life. Anyone who claims that someone else is eternally damned is claiming to be able to read the Book of Life and are claiming that they are Jesus.

These are questions that I am dealing with as a Christian, and what do you guys think?

love,

tuck

Oh and this question comes up, "How do we solve in house before we attempt to solve the world?"

"No house can stand if it is divided against it's self." I think when the Jewish establishment claimed that Jesus was of Satan and demon possessed that Jesus was quoted as saying the above quote and this also as an answer, "Therefore, I can not be of Satan," He said.".

Christianity is a house that is divided against itself and can not stand. can we as Christians solve this in house problem?

love,

tuck

Hmm, I came looking to respond to a post by Mary Sue that arrived in my email via notifications, but I guess it's gone now.

Tuck, Christianity is a broad and very diverse religion, with the various sects sharing a few essential core beliefs, but divided in many other areas of belief and practice. I don't see that changing any time soon, probably never. We have "stood" in this divided house for several centuries now, and I think we will continue to do so. Most people eventually learn that the various Christian denominations all have differing emphases -- almost like there are different "kinds" of Christianity out there.

I'm a Catholic, as I'm sure you know, and when I was young I was very bothered by the many non-Catholic church groups. At this time of my life, however, I tend to view the non-Catholic churches as part of God's plan, reaching people who would not otherwise be reached by the Catholic church, and, in many cases, giving emphasis to certain values and charisms. I have no doubt that Christ and his Spirit are at work in non-Catholic churches, so, in the end, we're not so much divided against ourselves as among ourselves. Big difference! See what I mean?

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Hmm, I came looking to respond to a post by Mary Sue that arrived in my email via notifications, but I guess it's gone now.

Tuck, Christianity is a broad and very diverse religion, with the various sects sharing a few essential core beliefs, but divided in many other areas of belief and practice. I don't see that changing any time soon, probably never. We have "stood" in this divided house for several centuries now, and I think we will continue to do so. Most people eventually learn that the various Christian denominations all have differing emphases -- almost like there are different "kinds" of Christianity out there.

I'm a Catholic, as I'm sure you know, and when I was young I was very bothered by the many non-Catholic church groups. At this time of my life, however, I tend to view the non-Catholic churches as part of God's plan, reaching people who would not otherwise be reached by the Catholic church, and, in many cases, giving emphasis to certain values and charisms. I have no doubt that Christ and his Spirit are at work in non-Catholic churches, so, in the end, we're not so much divided against ourselves as among ourselves. Big difference! See what I mean?

Phil, I actually do understand what you mean and you do understand what I mean. And it has just dawned on me that I am on a Catholic Christian message board. Which I am actually happy about. And you guys are cool Christians. I explained to my wife today that her and I may become Catholic, she doesn't really care. She just wants to worship Jesus and Father God.

love,

John and Charlotte

Mary Sue, I'm not sure what you're meaning to say, here: that the Church was complicit in genocide of Native Americans? Could you clarify that some more? I am not aware of this.

Mary Sue, have you done much reading and research on this topic? It seems it would be a very complex one, as the encounter between the Native Americans and (mostly) white settlers goes back over five centuries now. Granted, it's not a pretty history, but I'm not really well-read in this area. I do know that the Native religions were considered "pagan," and inferior to Christianity. That would still be the case today, as Christianity doesn't consider other religions to be equally revelatory of God's Word and channels of grace. Nevertheless, missionaries today and through the centuries do not force conversion on anyone. That would be the military, perhaps acting with the encouragement of church leaders -- e.g., "The Mission" movie.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Mary Sue, have you done much reading and research on this topic?"

Thank you for your comments Phil:
I am in the early stages of researching this topic. It is a painful
issue & so can only be looked into little by little. A few years ago I found out about generational trauma that was occurring in Native Americans.



Phil " I do know that the Native religions were considered "pagan," and inferior to Christianity. That would still be the case today, as Christianity doesn't consider other religions to be equally revelatory of God's Word and channels of grace. Nevertheless, missionaries today and through the centuries do not force conversion on anyone. That would be the military, perhaps acting with the encouragement of church leaders -- e.g., "The Mission" movie.

I will consider what your saying about the Church not forcing conversion on anyone directly. I don't know yet how I feel about
the possibility that the Church leaders may have
encouraged military to force conversion. NA children were removed from their families & sent to schools where, from my research, they were forced to go to Christian Church among other things.

I'm leaving Friday & will be on the road for
a couple weeks. So I'll most likely be late
responding to any comments.

Thanks so much

Hi Mary Sue--

I'd like to return to this subject when you get back. I think it's good to be able to have your concerns heard regarding things like this.

Some years ago, after my dad told us (his family) that he was Jewish, I started reading books of Jewish history. Seeing Jewish/Christian interaction over the last two millenia from a Jewish perspective was pretty painful and disturbing---it was hard to reconcile what I was learning with how I had viewed the Christian Church before. I did come out of it with a greater appreciation for both sides of my ethnic heritage and a wider mercy for both sides of my religious heritage...but not by trying to whitewash the terrible wrongs done.

So, as far as I'm concerned, I believe you need to be heard about these things that are bothering you as you learn more.

quote:

I don't know yet how I feel about
the possibility that the Church leaders may have
encouraged military to force conversion. NA children were removed from their families & sent to schools where, from my research, they were forced to go to Christian Church among other things.

Mary Sue, why not just let it all go? That's all over and done with, long ago, as were the NA killing Christian missionaries and white settlers. It seems to me pointless to look back in history to nurture a grudge, and that's sort of how you're coming across -- to me, at least.

There is much goodness and beauty in NA religion and this needs to be celebrated . . . and it is, by many Christians today. Consider, too, this quote from Vatican II:

quote:

2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

- from the "Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions."

quote:

Originally posted by Ariel Jaffe:
Hi Mary Sue--

I'd like to return to this subject when you get back. I think it's good to be able to have your concerns heard regarding things like this.

Some years ago, after my dad told us (his family) that he was Jewish, I started reading books of Jewish history. Seeing Jewish/Christian interaction over the last two millenia from a Jewish perspective was pretty painful and disturbing---it was hard to reconcile what I was learning with how I had viewed the Christian Church before. I did come out of it with a greater appreciation for both sides of my ethnic heritage and a wider mercy for both sides of my religious heritage...but not by trying to whitewash the terrible wrongs done.

So, as far as I'm concerned, I believe you need to be heard about these things that are bothering you as you learn more.

Hi Ariel:
Thank you for your kind sharing. Shortly after
you wrote this I saw a small part of a PBS
program on Jewish/Christian relations years
ago. The reception was so bad I regretable couldn't follow much of the program.

Jews were shown in drawings as being less than
human. Over the years the outcry from individuals & groups were so strong that these
attitudes have been changing. Thank goodness.

I needed to understand a little more of what
I was experiencing to get back with you. Sorry
for the delay.

"Mary Sue, why not just let it all go? That's all over and done with, long ago, as were the NA killing Christian missionaries and white settlers. It seems to me pointless to look back in history to nurture a grudge, and that's sort of how you're coming across -- to me, at least. "



I'm not sure if all the issues & questions have
been addressed yet within me, but some have. Some issues, even if they are centuries old may need some level of processing to let them go.


I seem to remember that Carl Jung said he felt a connection with his ancestors. A connection of unfinished business, unanswered questions. I believe he called it an impersonal family karma which was passed down through generations that he then had to address.

Phil, let's see if I can hear what you are saying here. That NA beliefs are considered inferior to
Christianity but one can still see beauty & goodness in it. And I suppose NA may feel the same way about
other belief systems.

Are you possibly saying then that you see no harm in
Christians participating in NA beliefs they find of goodness & beauty?

Peace

quote:

Phil " I do know that the Native religions were considered "pagan," and inferior to Christianity. That would still be the case today, as Christianity doesn't consider other religions to be equally revelatory of God's Word and channels of grace.

There is much goodness and beauty in NA religion and this needs to be celebrated . . . and it is, by many Christians today. Consider, too, this quote from Vatican II:

quote:

2. cut......The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

- from the "Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions."[/QUOTE]

Hi Mary Sue. Good to hear from you on this topic again.

quote:

Are you possibly saying then that you see no harm in
Christians participating in NA beliefs they find of goodness & beauty?

Sure, that sounds fine, especially if the beliefs you're referring to are not in conflict with Christian beliefs. There is much to celebrate in NA spirituality. The Dominican sisters at the retreat center where I work are very emphatic about our having much to learn from native peoples around the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Sue:


I'm not sure if all the issues & questions have
been addressed yet within me, but some have. Some issues, even if they are centuries old may need some level of processing to let them go.


I seem to remember that Carl Jung said he felt a connection with his ancestors. A connection of unfinished business, unanswered questions. I believe he called it an impersonal family karma which was passed down through generations that he then had to address.

Hi Mary Sue--

I'm glad you stopped in here again.

I can relate to all of what you're saying. In my case, as I was reading about Jewish/christian history, I had a Christian friend who sort of walked with me through it, just quietly hearing me out as I told her of what some genuine, sincere, but misguided Christians had done to Jews over the ages. It was healing and healthy for me to turn to my Christian friend with my shock over past Christians--kind a "hair of the dog that bit you" antidote, maybe--and have her simply act as a real Christ-like follower of Him...absorbing my distress and confusion without needing to defend Christianity's mistakes.

I'll buy into this. Jesus told us how to attract people to Christianity and not drive them away. I read this somewhere...


Matthew 22

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”



Matthew 7
Judging Others
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.



Colossians 3

1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[b] 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.



When we love our brother its not just our fellow christian it is the person on the other side of our eyes.


If you start acting that way this happens.

Ephesians 5
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord.


Matthew 5
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Hi Chris--

Wow---I needed to read that.

I don't know if you've been reading the other current threads, but on one I spoke of struggling in trying to live out Christ's prayer for unity among Christians. It's easy for me to see where others are failing at that--I've spoken elsewhere of seeing such nastiness among Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestant Christians. And all through feeling sad, annoyed, kind of disgusted and somewhat stunned, I've been struggling with my own sheer dislike of some of these fellow members of Christ's body (I don't mean anyone here). It's been pretty discouraging to me to be brought up short with clear signs of how far from being like Christ I am.

We all struggle at times for sure. They were just thoughts that came to me for this thread I hope they helped you. Reading and memorizing the bible helps a lot with decision making for sure.

I have not read much through the forum yet I have only just joined and am hard up fot time.

Phil,
I can't seem to get past the belief that
NA religion is considered inferior. Different
yes.

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Sue:

quote:

Phil " I do know that the Native religions were considered "pagan," and inferior to Christianity. That would still be the case today, as Christianity doesn't consider other religions to be equally revelatory of God's Word and channels of grace.

There is much goodness and beauty in NA religion and this needs to be celebrated . . . and it is, by many Christians today. Consider, too, this quote from Vatican II:

quote:

2. cut......The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reve

Hi Ariel:
You were indeed fortunate in having
a Christian friend who could witness what you
were saying & feeling.

I've never felt safe to explore
this issue within Christianity. The little I did share I felt criticized & basically told to be quiet.

When you write I feel heard and I feel that you
understand. I thank you deeply for that gift.

Peace

Originally posted by Ariel Jaffe:
[/QUOTE]

Hi Mary Sue--

I had a Christian friend who sort of walked with me through it, just quietly hearing me out as I told her of what some genuine, sincere, but misguided Christians had done to Jews over the ages. It was healing and healthy for me to turn to my Christian friend with my shock over past Christians--kind a "hair of the dog that bit you" antidote, maybe--and have her simply act as a real Christ-like follower of Him...absorbing my distress and confusion without needing to defend Christianity's mistakes.[/QUOTE]

Peace to you, too, Mary Sue, as you process through this.

Had an interesting experience yesterday in regards to this. Since I was raised Christian this belief about Christianity being superior to other faiths is within me. And that is where I need to look. Where do I feel
superior towards another, in any area of my life.

I became aware of the sweet smell of flowers.

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Sue:
Phil,
I can't seem to get past the belief that
NA religion is considered inferior. Different
yes.

quote:

Originally posted by Mary Sue:

quote:

Phil " I do know that the Native religions were considered "pagan," and inferior to Christianity. That would still be the case today, as Christianity doesn't consider other religions to be equally revelatory of God's Word and channels of grace.

There is much goodness and beauty in NA religion and this needs to be celebrated . . . and it is, by many Christians today. Consider, too, this quote from Vatican II:

quote:

2. cut......The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reve

Yes, that's a good insight, Mary Sue.

I'm not sure how to respond to the other dimension of your question, however -- re. how Christianity understands itself relative to other religions. "Superior" is not a term we use, at least not in the circles I run in. We do say that Jesus is the incarnate Son of God in an exclusivist sense -- that Buddha, Mohammed, Lao Tzu, a Hindu avatar, a NA shaman, etc. are not incarnations of God as Jesus is. It follows, then, that the life and teaching of Jesus reveal God more purely and truly than anyone else, and so the Christian religion, which is centered on Jesus, can make claims about being more truly aligned with God's will and purpose than other religions. It doesn't follow that we've always done a good job demonstrating this, nor does it follow that God is not present and acting in other world religions.

Btw, to my understanding, there is really no such thing as NA religion. Didn't the different tribes have different spiritualities, rituals, etc.?

Quoted by Phil
' I'm not sure how to respond to the other dimension of your question, however -- re. how Christianity understands itself relative to other religions. "Superior" is not a term we use, at least not in the circles I run in. "



Phil,

While Christianity may not use the word superior, I feel it is implied, whenever another religion or spirituality is said to be
inferior to Christian beliefs/understanding.

If there is an error in my
thinking/understanding I'd appreciate
knowing.




Phil:
"Btw, to my understanding, there is really no such thing as NA religion. Didn't the different tribes have different spiritualities, rituals, etc.? "

I do not consider myself any sort of expert on this, so if others have comments
please do share. My understanding is that there are some basic beliefs that are
common. However, there can be different rituals & other understandings.
It's my belief that much has been lost of their spirituality over centuries of genocide.

I remember reading that during WWII Hopi Indians, who were called to active service
choose to go to jail rather than fight. That their spiritual beliefs were not considered a religion & therefore they could not qualify as conscientious objectors. I don't believe all tribes felt the same way. I don't know presently if that
legal status of religion has changed. When I get some time I'll look into it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mary Sue,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...eligious_Freedom_Act

The American Indian Religious Freedom Act, Public Law No. 95-341, 92 Stat. 469 (Aug. 11, 1978) (commonly abbreviated to AIRFA), codified at 42 U.S.C. § 1996, is a United States federal law and a joint resolution of Congress that was passed in 1978. It was enacted to protect and preserve the traditional religious rights and cultural practices of American Indians, Eskimos, Aleuts, and Native Hawaiians.[

OK I believe I understand the basic point you are
saying Phil.. For me however, the words superior/inferior are trigger words of what underlies genocide (spiritual & otherwise).

That's great, Mary Sue. I don't like the terms superior/inferior either, but I think it's a stretch to see them justifying genocide.