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the burial of Jesus Login/Join 
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The people who buried Jesus had to rush to get Jesus buried before the Sabbath day came. They buried Him right near to the place of the crucifixion, because they had no time to go anywhere else. They had no time to carry the body some other place.


The women who stood near by, watched the burial.


Luke says these women went home and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day "according to the commandment" (Lk 23:56).


How could these women have watched the burial and then have time to go home and prepare spices - before the Sabbath day came? There isn't any way.
 
Posts: 218 | Registered: 03 November 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jesus died at 3 pm. Sabbath started at sunset. What's the problem?

(I thought I'd banned you.)
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Phil, why would you want to ban a nice person like me? American was founded on differing opinions.


The problem is: The women, who stood near by, watched the burial. They saw Jesus buried the last minutes before sundown, just prior to the beginning of the Sabbath.


Luke says these women went home and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day "according to the commandment" (Lk 23:56).


How could these women have watched the burial and then have time to go home and prepare spices - before the Sabbath day came? There isn't any way.


RESOLUTION:

The women saw Jesus buried the last minutes before sundown, prior to the beginning of the annual Passover, Nisan 15 Sabbath (Lev 23:6-7).

Then, when the annual Sabbath was over, they bought spices, prepared them, and rested the second Sabbath day "according to the commandment." This second Sabbath day was indeed Saturday.

That week there were two Sabbaths - with a day in between.
 
Posts: 218 | Registered: 03 November 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by wopik:
[qb] . . .How could these women have watched the burial and then have time to go home and prepare spices - before the Sabbath day came? There isn't any way. [/qb]
Why not? He dies at 3 pm, Sabbath begins at sundown. How long does it take to "prepare spices."

All this to make some kind of point in favor of Seventh Day Adventism, no doubt. That's what got really old sometime back.
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Mark 16:1 says the women bought the spices AFTER the Sabbath.


Luke 23:56 says the women prepared the spices BEFORE the Sabbath, then rested the Sabbath "according to the commandment."
 
Posts: 218 | Registered: 03 November 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The calendar has been moved around and changed through the centuries enormously. Leap days and even leap seconds are now routine. At this point, for any day to be considered the "real" Saturday or the "real" Sunday is somewhat ludicrous and pointless. It�s my not-too-humble opinion that anyone getting caught up in such details is looking for a special sort of righteousness above all others�and to me that is most definitely missing the point of Christ�s message. But that�s certainly nothing that Seventh Day Adventists have a monopoly on.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Good point, Brad, only the Jews were very clear on what day of the week they called the Sabbath, and these readings are in reference to that day.

This kind of topic is the sort I don't care much about, although I know some think it significant. Commentators have noted the apparent discrepancies wopik calls our attention to (see http://www.ccel.org/j/jfb/jfb/JFB41.htm#Chapter16 - click the number 16) but they do not think them significant. wopik's intent is, ultimately, to establish the Seventh Day Adventist perspective and then use this as a springboard for telling us we should be keeping the old Jewish feast days.
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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May I state another possibility.


John calls the Sabbath following close on the heels of Jesus' crucifixion "a high day".


Since the annual "holidays of the Bible" are all called Sabbaths (all but one), the "high day" Sabbath John was referring to was the Nisan 15 Passover no-work-holiday, and not the weekly Sabbath.


The women saw Jesus buried the last minutes before sundown, prior to the beginning of the annual Passover, Nisan 15 Sabbath (Lev 23:6-7).

Then, when the annual Sabbath was over, they bought spices, prepared them, and rested the second Sabbath day "according to the commandment." This second Sabbath day was indeed Saturday.

That week there were two Sabbaths - with a day in between.


-----


Day of Atonement is called "a Sabbath of rest" - Lev 23:32.


The first and last days of Feast of Tabernacles are called "holy convocations" (vs 35-36) and Sabbaths (vs 39).


The seventh day is called a "holy convocation" and "a Sabbath of rest" (Lev 23:3).
 
Posts: 218 | Registered: 03 November 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If Jesus didn't exactly put an end to this quibbling over Pharisee-like details, he certainly showed us how ludicrous it was. If you truly believe that the Master of all time, space, and dimension wants us to quibble and create division over mere trifles, then that pretty much puts an exclamation point on the fact that much of Christianity isn't about following Christ through heartfelt love and sacrifice. It's about trying to raise ourselves up to His level (and past the level of our neighbors presumably) with self-conscious devices, tactics, and stratagems. Last I heard the main point of Christianity was "Love your neighbor as yourself" not "If you can find a loophole in the Bible, use it to prove your superior point of view."
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
If Jesus didn't exactly put an end to this quibbling over Pharisee-like details, he certainly showed us how ludicrous it was.
1) Jesus told the Pharisees they were being hyprocrites, for telling the people to obey the law while they didn't.


...for they preach, but do not practice. They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. (Matthew 23:2-9 RSV)


Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Matthew 16:11-12 RSV)


2) Jesus also told them: "And why do you transgress the Commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matthew 15:3-6 RSV).




God's people are to live according to all of God's Word, not just certain parts that are most convenient or to one's own liking.
 
Posts: 218 | Registered: 03 November 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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God's people are to live according to all of God's Word, not just certain parts that are most convenient or to one's own liking.

So how light, loving, and fulfilling is all this "living by God�s Word" making you? Shouldn�t living by a correct understanding of that word bring openness, lightness, and joy? That�s my point. We can get caught up lawyer-like in the words and miss their meaning. We may thing that following rules is the point to living. Well, no. It�s not. Rules, as far as I�m concerned, are meant to form us and to develop us so that we eventually come to that place where no rule is needed to tell us what to do in every situation � which no set of rules could do anyway. But if we are afraid to move to this place, or don�t know how to (fair enough�I�m trying to make my way there myself), then we might back-track, and instead of moving forward we turn back and clutch tighter to words and rules because it�s the only thing we can think of doing. It�s the only way we know. Well, there are other ways. That�s how I see it, Wopik.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thank you for your comments.


http://www.rondart.com/
 
Posts: 218 | Registered: 03 November 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The Burial of Jesus


Why was the location of the burial important? Because a Sabbath day is coming on. They had to get the body of Jesus down off the stake and the work of burial finished before sundown when the Sabbath began. There is no slack in here. I have included all this information to establish that Jesus� body went into the tomb in the last moments before the sun went down, beginning the Sabbath day.

So our question is, was this late on Friday, just before the Sabbath, or late on Wednesday, just before the festival Sabbath? The latter of these alternatives would give us our three days and three nights.


http://www.rondart.com/Book%20...20three%20nights.htm


-
 
Posts: 218 | Registered: 03 November 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I recognize these teachings. I grew up in the worldwide church of god, founder Herbert W. Armstrong. Ronald Dart is a splinter of this group.

http://www.macgregorministries...oups/kieferdorf.html

No thank you to these teachings. I am still deprogramming my mind from the damage of this type spiritual formation.
 
Posts: 77 | Location: South Carolina | Registered: 18 July 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Reading that MacGregor Ministries link (thank you, Tate) I realize the I'm probably far worse than Dart in terms of orthodoxy. And I'm surely far outside of Wopik in terms of believing what is most commonly believed. And I believe this has about 0% to do with whether or not one is following the teachings and spirit of Christ. In fact, we could argue each and ever point (Is there a hell? What kind of body is a resurrection body? Is there a Trinity?) and we might likely still get no closer to Christlikeness. I think the purely "What we believe" stuff tends to serve man's religion, for what difference does it make what we believe if we are rotten bastards? Who we are in our hearts, and the obedience to love and truth is what counts, at least as far as I'm concerned. But does truth, and thus peace and love, automatically flow out of our precise conceptions of the Trinity or hell? Well, it doesn't for me. In fact, I find such details to likely be, at best, rough (very rough) analogies that are helpful only in attempting to point us to some deeper truth. And when we get stuck debating these details then I think we get stuck in religion when we should be moving on to developing a relationship with God which is going to be very personal and which likely is going to have a profound effect on us, but which I think also is likely going to consist of fewer hard-and-fast words and concepts of the type that people have been splitting hairs over for centuries which seems to serve organized religion just fine, but not necessarily God.
 
Posts: 5413 | Location: Washington State | Registered: 21 September 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I agree with the spirit of what you say, Brad, but, as you know, I also believe there's a connection between spirituality and dogma, and that organized religion has a vital role to play in supporting Christian community and spiritual formation. There's also every indication that the formation of the Christian Church was Christ's intent. Doctrine/dogma is the proverbial "finger that points to the moon," and while it's harmful to cling to the finger, it's not inevitable that one do so. "Who we are in our hearts, and the obedience to love and truth" is indeed what counts, but I don't see that developing very far without sound intellectual/theological formation to support the will. Organized religion has a very important role to play unto that end, but the problem I see with wopik's posts is the one you put your finger on -- that the kinds of concerns he's raising have little relevance to spirituality.
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tate, I am so proud and happy for you. It has been a long journey for you to unravel the mind control of a religous system that enslaved you, and for you to have the courage and desire to embrace the light of freedom. May God's graces and love guide you ever onward into all truths. God bless you!.
 
Posts: 571 | Location: Oregon | Registered: 20 June 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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... but the problem I see with wopik's posts is the one you put your finger on -- that the kinds of concerns he's raising have little relevance to spirituality.
Hello, all.


But, I would presume that the popularized tradition of Friday-Sunday is very spiritual to those who keep it.


There is nothing wrong or unspiritual in trying to substantiate Jesus' words. Jesus apparently thought is was quite relevant (the number of days He was to remain dead). So relevant, He stated the number of days and NIGHTS.


So our question is, was this late on Friday, just before the Sabbath, or late on Wednesday, just before the festival Sabbath? The latter of these alternatives would give us our three days and three nights.


It's only irrelevant to the Friday-Sunday tradition keepers. That's obvious why.

-
 
Posts: 218 | Registered: 03 November 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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proto-Judaism


At the time Jesus walked the streets of Jerusalem, there was a dominant religion there. It was a kind of Judaism. Perhaps a proto-Judaism. During and after the Babylonian exile, the Jewish sages had begun the development of the Mishnah�a formalization of their oral traditions, memorized and passed down from generation to generation. Their religion centered on the study of the law. The problem was That as they developed their tradition, they "improved" on the law considerably. The result was Judaism.

Judaism, though, was not homogeneous. It was quite sectarian, as human nature would lead us to expect. The Pharisees taught both the Oral and Written law. The Sadducees taught only the written law, and the Essenes thought both of them were corrupt.


http://www.rondart.com/Galatians/Galintro.htm
 
Posts: 218 | Registered: 03 November 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I agree that there were two sabbath's the week Jesus was crucified;
the High Day Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath;
I agree that Jesus was put in the tomb at sundown Wednesday and rose sundown Saturday;
three days and three nights, just as HE said.

John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

The WORD, who is GOD, knows there are 12 hours in a day and 12 hours in a night;
HE said 3 days and 3 nights;
HE created the evening and the morning a day.
The written Word contains the terms;
"in 3 days" = a time period of 0 to 72 hours
"on the 3rd day" = a time of 48 to 72 hours
"after 3 days"= 72 hours or more
"3 days & 3 nights"= 72 hours
72 hours satisfies all these scriptures.


I agree it is all about Jesus Christ (Yashua Messiah) in the Passover, Unleavened Bread, and the Firstfruit Wave offering.

I agree that easter is pagan;
I agree that the term Easter is not in the original wrightings;
that the KJV writers made and error in using Easter instead of Passover.
 
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Sounds like you've resolved this issue in your mind, wopik. Be at peace.
 
Posts: 7539 | Location: Wichita, KS | Registered: 09 August 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thank you all for your comments about this topic.
 
Posts: 218 | Registered: 03 November 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This may come as a surprise to you, but there is no passage in the Bible that tells us precisely when Jesus rose from the dead. There is a reason for that: there were no witnesses to the actual event. The first people who saw Jesus alive saw him on Sunday morning, but that does not mean that was the time of the resurrection.

But wait. What about Mark�s statement, �Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils�? (Mark 16:9). Bear in mind that no one witnessed the actual resurrection of Jesus, so no one could testify as to the moment. Thus, this passage is describing, not the time of the resurrection, but the time of Jesus� appearing to Mary. The Greek texts have no punctuation, so all the commas and periods are left to the translators. Just put the comma in the right place and all becomes clear. �Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene.� Also note that in Mark�s testimony that the first person to see Jesus alive was Mary. That confirms that no one saw the moment of the resurrection of Jesus.

There is nothing in the Gospel accounts to dispute that Jesus rose from the dead Saturday evening rather than Sunday morning. Three days and three nights from Jesus' evening burial would naturally take us to an evening.


http://www.rondart.com/Book%20...20three%20nights.htm
 
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