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THE WORLD’S MOST EVIL BELIEFS – IMHO http://www.tentmaker.org/artic...orld/circularity.htm The world’s most evil beliefs & the most important issue The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck. The god that Arminian Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures “Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.” The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect. The god that Calvinistic Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures "I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.) And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.” Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering. http://www.tentmaker.org/artic...orld/circularity.htm What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian) or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!! Thank God the Bible does not teach such insane ideas! http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm http://richardwaynegarganta.co...iversalsalvation.htm Copy and paste one of the following titles into Google SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY Or ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST Or UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY Anyone is welcome to believe anything they want to about what the Bible teaches. I'm just so glad I learned about the following information. It enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78. I'm 71 now. I, and many others with whom I have become acquainted, simply could not successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God would let anyone suffer forever. Here is the testimony of Charles Slagle who went insane for the same reasons that I did. Copy and paste the following title into Google ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST or click on http://www.tentmaker.org/books...in-Jesus-Christ.html http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm Eternal Torment Calvinism, Eternal Torment Arminianism, Annihilation, or Christian Biblical Universalism. Which one of the four is the truth? This debate nearly always ends with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is a stalemate. If readers think it glorifies God more to believe that He is going to let some of His creatures suffer forever or annihilate them, then they should keep believing that. But if they think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will, then I would like them to know that that is exactly what the Bible teaches that God is like. THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE The findings of Greek scholar Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars quoted in chapters three and twelve of his online book IMHO renders all other arguments irrelevant. IMHO these findings effectively close the case on the arguments that eternal tormentors try so hard to uphold. But of course one has to actually read them to see what I mean. Just Google up AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS and enjoy, or click on http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html • Eternal Death Annihilation • http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html • Bible Threatenings Explained • http://www.tentmaker.org/books...eningsExplained.html • Universal Salvation University • http://richardwaynegarganta.co...iversalsalvation.htm | |||
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Hi Roger. It's been awhile, but I see you're still in good form.  Yes, what you say above is distressing, and I've never understood the attraction of Calvinist theology, as the image of God suggested is certain capricious and even cruel. Perhaps someone from that tradition can explain what they find helpful, there. I suspect a fair number of people are still bothered by the fear of hell, though more and more it seems that people don't take the prospect of hell seriously at all. Jesus did, however, and I'm thinking he knew more about these matters than any of us. | |||
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...I think that we cannot look at the "sustaining" a potential damned person's existence by God as an act of cruelty. What you, Roger, say brings to my mind associations with euthanasia justification (I don't know what are your views about that - just an association) - God should end the suffering by "killing" the damned person in an act of mercy. But God's gift of life to human beings is once and forever. God COULD annihilate someone, but won't do this because of the very nature of his gift - that's how I understand this. So God wouldn't be God if he took life back. Another options for the potentially damned would be arranging such a situation in which they could repent and turn to God. It reminds me of Jesus' parable about the rich man and the begger: "I sent to them my prophets, but they didn't want to listen. I sent to them my son, but they didn't want to listen..." etc. Some theologians think that in the moment of death we can choose more freely, because we're not so much enslaved by our addiction of sin, yet we are not totally dead yet (I guess, that was Rahner's idea, among others). So everyone gets a chance to choose Love, even if the whole life was against Love. But still... there is a possibility, a horrible possibility that someone spits in the face of Love even in this last moment - then what? God can arrange every situation for a free spirit, but still we can reject him out of our freedom. The hell is a possibility - we don't say that anyone is damned, but logically there is a possiblity of rejecting Love. First humans rejected Love even though they were happy, united with God etc. Freedom is a mystery. And God is the foundation of our freedom just as he is a foundation of our life. He cannot take it away. Rahner also had this idea that the more we exercise our freedom, the more we are close to God, because he is the foundation of our freedom. So the act of ultimate rejection of God, is at the same time very close to God, and extremely far from God, and maybe this is the essence of hell - the suffering of rejecting the One who is recognized as the ultimate source of our life, happiness, freedom etc.? Still... a possibility. So for me God takes a great risk of making us free, because the more we're free, the more we can be close to him, but the risk is enormous - we can reject Him and He cannot do anything to undo this, since it would be against his nature. God cannot hate, God cannot break a promise, so why not we can't agree that God cannot force anyone to choose Love if this person decides not to? If they were to be damned people, I think it would be a tragedy - for God in the first place. I'm sure He did everything to prevent this - the Incarnation and the Cross being the most effective means to save us. But he cannot make us happy if we don't choose to be happy. We can, of course, wonder what would it be like for God and the saints, if there were damned people - how could we be ultimately happy, knowing that there are those who aren't... But we don't know yet. We can hope that the hell remains merely a possibility, but also - we have to consider the possibility and do everything in our power to prevent it from happening. And I can have faith that God will make everything good in the end, not violating his own nature and his own gifts. I don't know how - but I can have faith that, as Paul says, "God desires that all people be saved". BTW, do the Eastern Orthodox believe that all people, and even the evil spirits and Satan will be finally saved? Some of the early Greek Fathers believed that (e.g. Gregory of Nyssa), but I don't know if the Eastern Church made some clear statements about the real possibility of eternal damnation? | ||||
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To Phil: I found this very helpful. What Jesus really taught about "hell." http://www.tentmaker.org/artic...steachingonhell.html To Mt: I found this very helpful regarding our so-called "free will." http://www.godfire.net/eby/freeagent.htm and this regarding the salvation of Satan and fallen angels http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html | ||||
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You might like to be aware of the evidence why some of us think that the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation. Is the Doctrine of Limited Punishment, Terminated by Destruction True? http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/annihil.html also An online book that shows why we believe the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation is ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch. WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED - chapters three and four (If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar) http://www.lighthouselibrary.c...6&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author There are also several expositions that do the same thing on a less comprehensive scale. They are accessed through the search engine at the top of the front page at http://www.tentmaker.org For example, two are ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION ONE STEP OUT OF HELL http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html Or JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORD DESTRUCTION? http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html Here is an intro to the book ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages) Concordant Publishing Concern http://www.concordant.org/ Introduction: "The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom. The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ’s cross. (Col.1-20). Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God’s purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). “In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens” (Col.1:19,20). The terms translated “forever” and “everlasting” and “never” are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons. Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God’s grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)." end quote From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada | ||||
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Here's what we find in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There's obviously more to it than "scaring people into obedience," as the page you cited maintains.
Of course, this teaching is, indeed, premised on the idea that we are free moral agents. I don't need to read anything to convince me that I am or am not. I know that I am free to choose my behavior. This is not a uniquely Catholic teaching; it's common to the world religions, karmaic tendencies notwithstanding. The web page you referred Mt. to regarding freedom uses silly logical fallacies to make its points, conflating freedom and desire, which is ridiculous. - - - I'm not too keen on teachings that refer to the Catholic Church as the "harlot church system," primarily because I've found it a complete waste of time to try to dialogue with people who think like that. | |||
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THE FALLACY OF “FREE WILL” Copy and paste into Google HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE or click on http://concordant.org/expohtml...hievement/index.html The introduction at the beginning of each chapter is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it. Pride says, "I got myself saved by properly cooperating with God." Humility says, "God laid hold on me by His saving grace and CAUSED Jesus to be "choice" in my heart no thanks to myself at all; just like He did for Saul of Tarsus who became the apostle Paul when a light from heaven blinded him and Jesus said, “I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” And Paul said, “Lord, what will you have me do.” Our conversion may not be anywhere near as dramatic as Paul's but IMHO it is no less a 100% accomplishment of God's grace alone plus nothing. God's grace can temporarily be resisted to teach lessons. But God's grace can NEVER be defeated. God’s desire, and ability, and intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved will SUPERCEED the will of the most stubborn of sinners because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross. If God is really not willing that any perish, then why will they perish? "No man can come to Me," Jesus said, "except the Father draw him" (John 6:44). Salvation is indeed a gift from God, sovereignly given, to whomever God chooses, when He chooses, and He will indeed grant it to all mankind, in due time (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). It does not depend on man's acceptance. Left to themselves, no man would ever choose God (Rom. 3:10-11). At the present time, God bestows benefits of life, food, health, rain, etc, to saints and sinners alike (Acts 17:25). He also has ordained for all mankind to experience a portion of both good and evil as well. The experiences of life are all preparatory to, and in anticipation of, our eternal life with God. Some say all are given equal opportunity . . . "? Not so! The Scriptures clearly show that all mankind was plunged into its present state of being lost by the actions of one man, Adam (Rom. 5:12). All mankind are born sinners. In the history of the world, very few of mankind have ever been given the opportunity to believe in the "only name given under heaven, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Salvation is a gift, sovereignly given to those of God's choice. It was procured by the obedience of One Man, Christ Jesus, and His death on the cross (Rom. 5:15-18). It is for all mankind, it is presently enjoyed by all who believe, and will be bestowed on all mankind in due time (Romans 3:22, Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). God's mercy is based on the fact that all sin has been judged in the person of His Son. God has subjected the whole creation to the experience of evil, in order to extend mercy to all (Rom 8:20). Romans 1:20 says that man is without excuse for denying God's existence. But the free gift of salvation has not yet been revealed to all mankind; only to a few now, in due time to all (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). Copy and paste into Goodge IS MAN A FREE MORAL AGENT? Or click on http://www.godfire.net/eby/freeagent.htm or http://www.martinzender.com/Ze...he_oh_well_creed.htm or http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd2/freewillnote.html or http://home.att.net/~spiritword/Adams/spirit_5.htm or copy and paste into Google HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE or click on http://concordant.org/expohtml...hievement/index.html The introduction at the beginning of each chapter is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it. The following chapter in this exposition specifically deals with the “free will” issue. http://concordant.org/expohtml...sAchievement016.html | ||||
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SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED – SOME THROUGH THE FIRE – BUT ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html According to the Bible everyone will be saved - some through the fire, but all through the blood. http://www.tentmaker.org/artic...orld/circularity.htm We should desire to experience the lake of fire if God sees that is what we need. That's how much we can relax in the arms of God's love. It is God’s decretive will (that which MUST occur) that everyone violates His preceptive will (that which they OUGHT to do) as much as they actually do because each person is being fitted into God’s master plan in a way that necessitates their own individual experience with sin, evil and suffering. Then when God consummates His plan for the ages of time He will eradicate sin and suffering from existence after everyone has learned all that God wants them to learn from its temporary existence. http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire. http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death. You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?" There actually is much evidence. Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John. Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24) Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25). Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers. So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished? They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22). They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous: Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying. Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just. All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20) All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10) All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11). And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so. So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people. In summary then: The lake of fire is the second death. The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul. How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty. In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force. In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation. He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25). He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24). He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28). So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all. Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most. Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time. Each in his own order. Type into Google The lake of fire Eby http://www.tentmaker.org/artic...eLakeOfFire-Eby.html http://www.tentmaker.org/artic...iliation-heavens.htm http://www.tentmaker.org/artic...-the-world/index.htm Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures? The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26). And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet. How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26). It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection. The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death. What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it who needs it. http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html http://mercifultruth.com/links-savedbygrace.htm | ||||
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Yes, if you're into Christological exclusivism, then it's a sad state of affairs. Happily, however, Catholics are not such, as we believe God is at work (through Christ) outside the Christian religion, and all who cooperate with the Spirit working through their conscience can/will be saved. As Paul notes in Rm. 1:
Note that knowledge of God is considered possible for all people, and that it's our cooperation with evil that darkens us. You're in reaction to Calvinism, Roger. There's a lot of Christian theology outside that framework that you seem to be unfamiliar with. How about actually dialoguing instead of copy/pasting web pages and throwing links at us. That's feeling more and more like spamming. | |||
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God’s purposes are not completed in this current age, but worked out in successive ages. (Eph. 2:7) The message of God’s saving work through Christ is glorious, and it is not limited to this lifetime as the orthodox church would have us believe. It is not in God’s plan “to save as many as He can before this life ends” only to throw the rest of His precious creation in the dumper for all eternity. Jesus did not pray for the world, but for those whom the Father gave Him (the disciples). (John 17) Those who are Calvinists will twist this prayer of Jesus to say that God only has intentions to save the elect, while the rest are reserved for never-ending punishment, but they make the same critical mistake that most of Christendom does in that they do not see that God’s purposes for mankind do not end with this life. THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html Everything will be accomplished in GOD’S TIME, not ours. God’s purpose in this age is to bring a people to Himself (elect) in order to reach the non-elect in the ages to come. He is calling US in order to show forth His kindness to OTHERS in the ages to come. Once you see this truth, you will then understand why most people will never come to Christ in this age. This does not mean God has forsaken the many and given them up to suffer never-ending punishments. The mercy, love, and compassion of our God will never fail and the Good Shepherd will keep on seeking and saving until each and every last sheep (good and bad) is brought into the fold. The following link is a great exposition on what the Bible teaches about this subject. God, All in All! http://www.tentmaker.org/artic...world/all-in-all.htm | ||||
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