I don't really know if god exists... but i'm pretty sure that some guitarist are gods at playing guitar !!!

I can hear the sound of him inhaling . . . .

I don't really know if god exists... but i'm pretty sure that some guitarist are gods at playing guitar !!!

When all is said and done, that�s not exactly the world�s worst disingenuous segue that tries to take the edge off an impolite spamming of a Christian spirituality forum looking for guitar sales. But it worked! I had to check out www.deanguitars.com. It looks like a very professionally-designed web site with an amateurish and hack means of promoting it.

The-Funky-Boy,

Hi there, Check this out. http://www.peterkreeft.com/

caritas,

mm <*))))><

I'm compelled to do this.

I recommend the good book, not only does it relieve pressure now, but it may help keep the heat off of you later as well.

Lots of water over the dam(n).

Sorry, I got Burma Shave fever in me.

When life is a pain
In the neck, bridge or pick
Then it�s time for a change
To a bass or electric

I dare you to say that three times fast.

It's good to see how this thread has finally resolved the age-old question of whether or not God really does exist!

quote:

�Pick the day. Enjoy it-to the hilt. The day as it comes. People as they come. . . . The past, I think, has helped me appreciate the present-and I don�t want to spoil any of it by fretting about the future.�

�Not to live for the day, that would be materialistic-but to treasure the day. I realize that most of us live on the skin-on the surface-without appreciating just how wonderful it is simply to be alive at all.�

�My own life has been much more than a fairy tale. I�ve had my share of difficult moments, but whatever difficulties I�ve gone through, I�ve always gotten a prize at the end.�

�If my world were to cave in tomorrow, I would look back on all the pleasures, excitements and worthwhilenesses I have been lucky enough to have had. Not the sadnesses, not my miscarriages or my father leaving home, but the joy of everything else. It will have been enough.�

- Audrey Hepburn.

O.K. Brad . . . . enough veiled expressions of your preoccupation with beautiful women. Come right out with it . . . that you feel they are proof of God's existence. Fine. Now the record is straight.

http://silverscreensirens.com/audrey.htm


Interestingly enough, the webmaster for this site reports the photos of Aubrey have been stolen. Hum . . . . . .

O.K. Brad . . . . enough veiled expressions of your preoccupation with beautiful women. Come right out with it . . . that you feel they are proof of God's existence. Fine. Now the record is straight.

Well, WC, I'll take the existence of Audrey Hepburn as evidence in God's favor. The prosecution will no doubt present Hitler as their star witness, but that's for another time. Interestingly, I didn't know that Audrey herself and her family hid from the Nazis in the Netherlands. They want back there from England thinking that it would be safer with the neutral Dutch.

And you are surely correct, WC. Audrey is (was? is?) a beautiful woman. But hers is the kind of beauty that touches me in a non-sexual way. She's like a work of art. A rare masterpiece. She could make a burlap sack look stylish. I've been watching a couple of her old movies lately. It's interesting to note that her last movie was the Spielberg movie Always. I don't think I've seen that one. Sabrina with Humphrey Bogart and William Holden (and grandma Walton Ellen Corby in a supporting role) is a fine movie as is Charade with Cary Grant. I think I'll watch Roman Holiday (with Gregory Peck) or War and Peace next. Oh, and from another movie I watched recently�

Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. And you may quote me. � Elwood P. Dowd.

Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.

Can anyone recommend "The Nun's Story"? No, I'm not considering entering a convent.

I'll let Audrey's mother have the last word:

I can really take no credit for any talent that Audrey may have. If it�s real talent, it�s God-given. I might as well be proud of a blue sky, or the paintings in the Flemish exhibition at the Royal Academy. � Baroness Ella van Heemstra Hepburn-Ruston

I can't think of a better analogy for life than this woman who lives in the duplex across from my place of work. I see her almost every day doing the most unusual, although simple, things and seemingly doing them in complete peace and contentment.

She shows in her actions that knowing and doing one's task is the secret of life, no matter how grand or humble that task is. In her case it is endlessly shoveling, raking, spading, hoeing, and otherwise arranging the dirt in her yard (there is no longer any grass�it's all dirt). Perhaps knowing one's task isn't really a part of the equation. It seems that doing that task can be equated with knowing it. One doesn't have to do a lot of searching for the "knowing" unless one is lost. One simply does. I doubt there's a lot of careful planning involved in coming to know what tasks it is one is destined, designed, or compelled to do. I say this because I doubt many people ultimately do what they do because they've made a careful, rational cost/benefit analysis of it, even if we do sometimes make a grand show of looking rational by engaging in such planning and intellectualizing (and, of course, such things can be helpful). If we are like water we flow where we can and don't worry too much about trying to flow over mountains. That is the job for birds. If we are water then that is not our path. If we are a healthy bird then we might not even consider such a question. We just fly over the mountain effortlessly.

What good is a bird? What good is a river? What good is a neurotic and/or mentally challenged gardener? I don't know, but I don't feel pity. I feel awe�and wonder. But sometimes rivers become so thick with pollution they do not flow (or they even catch fire!). Sometimes birds break their wings and can not fly effortlessly anywhere, let alone over mountains. Therefore some people build their mountains lower�even move them in a wheel barrow from one side of the yard to the other and will do so again and again and again. Some rivers will simply seep into the earth, ignore what impedes them, and come out somewhere else as a healthy, clear spring.

Those bright blue tarps, carefully smoothed and weighed down at the edges and middle with rocks, cover half of the dirt in the yard and make for an interesting substitute for grass � if it is meant as a substitute for grass. When spring comes, will the tarp change position? Will new, fresh dirt be uncovered to celebrate the season of renewal? I'll have to watch more closely to find out, but I'm afraid of upsetting the smooth rhythms that exist now by bringing my unimaginative and unbelieving attention to the works; works that are perhaps as great as the excavation of the Panama Canal � at least when seen on the scale of the worms and bugs � or in the heart of the excavator. Maybe finding one's scale is the ticket.

"...deep inside every man or woman is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calimity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself." - alcoholics anonymous
page 55

The existence of the question begs the answer...

caritas,

mm <*)))))><

The existence of the question begs the answer...

It�s a quandary, MM. Something in me resists the programming that has been thrown at me and is being thrown at me all the time (political, cultural, familial, etc., etc.), and yet this programming is so ubiquitous that it certainly must serve a vital purpose. I�m quite sure the only reason I chafe is that I�ve swallowed so much of it hook, line and sinker that I�ve lost a good part of myself.

BTW, the espresso girls were in fine form this morning: That�s 5 points for the existence of Godffindor. (BTW, where do you belong?)

It was Ravenclaw for me.

Ravenclaw, of course!

I was thinking (surprise!) about the agnostics I have known and how much they love science and logic
and questioning, and how much they mistrust authority, (which may be wise, look at the CIA)

Could it be that the divine plan allows for about
5% of us to think in this way, and that it is a necessary function? After all, I want a scientist
or Supreme Court justice to have the power of objectivity. I've reflected on this often, and no longer have as much need to conform everyone to my worldview to feel safe, which results in many forms of spiritual abuse, which I have perpetrated
in the past and am seeking to make amends for...

I am a capital "C" codependent, and understand about giving pieces of myself away to please others. There are times when I do not speak my mind as I should. It is very important to comprehend the meaning of "to thine own self be true, and thus thou canst be false to any man."

C.S. Lewis asked, and the answer eventually presented itself. He was perhaps a Ravenclaw as well.

As far as expresso girls, one just became your governor by a 0.0046% margin, and her neighbor is the C.E.O of Starbucks, but she is decaffienated.
You also have two female U.S. Senators, and five of your nine justices resemble Judge Judy more than Wapner.

That many powerful women running one's life could
lead one to become a praying man. (Not a praying mantis, as we know what the females do to them)

agnostic.com

I am a capital "C" codependent, and understand about giving pieces of myself away to please others. There are times when I do not speak my mind as I should. It is very important to comprehend the meaning of "to thine own self be true, and thus thou canst be false to any man."

The funny thing about life, MM, is it seems that it's made up of a series of impulses. Call them by another name if you will, but we are somewhat slaves to them. They are what drive us from place to place and to most of the significant events of our lives. Well, what happens when we can no longer trust these impulses because time and again they have led us astray? How do we exist if we can't trust the deepest expressions of who we are?

So the next thing we might try is to temper and wizen ourselves; to put something between our passions and our actions to act as sort of a filter. With some effort and restraint this may work for a while, but all this time our inner compulsions and passions are working to break free � and causing as much, if not more, damage by our resistance to them than if we would have just indulged them.

So then we might try a new game. We tell ourselves that our passions and impulses aren't acting from the real me. So we delve and probe and fat-chew and analyze and come back out of our tent with a whole new me. And then the same damn cycle happens again. Those inner passions, though we attempt to tame them, filter them, or dress them up in something else, return. Eventually we are spent and exhausted and symbolically left lying in the fetal position on the floor. Maybe some new realization of god comes or maybe it was the old one that got us to where we are. We're not quite sure anymore and it doesn't really seem to matter all that much. Maybe the final realization is that I'm a murderer, a thief, a no-good, a vagabond. Maybe I was meant to be these things. Maybe the struggle is the journey, the journey is the destination, whatever that all means. It used to sound good at one time but doesn't anymore.

Despite it all, we suspect, no, we know there is one last thing we haven't tried. One more technique that's bound to work. Hope springs eternal. And then one day we might come to the realization that nothing is broken. Nothing is wrong. The lashing out that used to hurt other people and ourselves is no longer necessary. We give in. That battle is over. We don't need that victory because we see now that if it was meant for us we would have had it. Claws retract. Fangs are re-hidden. We realize that in our struggle for absolute LIFE we have been killing ourselves. Life is not an issue over which we hold much influence. Our lives are indeed forfeit. Once this is learned we might find that all those old battles no longer attract us. Those old impulses don't need artificial dampening. They are gone or transformed. They were us and perhaps served their purpose but they are not permanent. And we now know that our initial problem was that our impulses � the ones base on fear � were screaming out and taking center stage over all our other impulses and facets of our lives. When we no longer feel such a dire need to protect ourselves then these impulses subside and the ones that were always there, the ones containing quite a bit of our better natures, begin to see sunshine.

We can be who we are.

This is the really good meat and taters stuff, now.
From the gut and/or heart. You are speaking with the earnestness and sincerity I get to hear (at times) in the 12 step rooms. Most people won't choose this unless some self imposed crisis forces the decision.

I read the Grapevine, the monthy meeting in print for my fellowship. Several times a year an agnostic will write about how they managed without a real
"higher power." Invariably, they share how they adopted the principles, ie, hope, faith, trust, honesty, perserverence, forgiveness, justice and love. Anyone who chooses may place their faith in these things. Theology is not mandatory for living
a spiritual way of life. A Buddhist might say "good" rather than "God" is what they trust in.

Really, I feel that you have been very tolerant of the "religious" folk around here and I would like to extend you the same courtesy. I might 4get, so remind me if I get 2 preachy.

blessings and caritas,

mm <*)))))><

This is the really good meat and taters stuff, now.

Michael, you rate at least 7,567 on the ol� Spirituality-o-Matic meter that we use �round here at Shalom Place. (It�s a lot more sensitive than the muscle resistance test�see, with the Spirituality-o-Matic technique we see how many King James Version bibles you can stack up before the stack topples. Ann Coulter books will also do in a pinch.)

That is the long way of saying the you help to facilitate such conversation with your sincerity and honest enthusiasm.

Most people won't choose this unless some self imposed crisis forces the decision.

The crisis is something you�ve helped bring about, MM. I was doing a little more reading about St. Francis yesterday and even watched "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" (or is that Sister Sun, Brother Moon? I forget) last night. It�s interesting knowing the Francis at one time was absolutely giddy at the prospect of going into battle and killing his fellow man. Eventually he falls ill and when he comes out of it he�s a changed man. However it happened, and whatever happened, one gets the feeling that there are distinct things standing between us and love. If we could catch a metaphysical glimpse at our souls we might see them in the form of a hot air balloon that was tethered to the ground by ropes and by heavy sand bags. There�s stuff we need to throw overboard in order to gain altitude. There are binds we need to cut in order to soar higher.

MM, it�s clear to my eye that you have the natural impulses and compunctions to fly above the clouds. So the question is (and it�s a big one, and one that effects us all), "What do we do with ourselves until we become saints?"

Really, I feel that you have been very tolerant of the "religious" folk around here and I would like to extend you the same courtesy. I might 4get, so remind me if I get 2 preachy.

Your consideration is appreciated, MM. But I think I�m carving out a new category. Agnostic just doesn�t do me justice.

By the way, this thread is a living example of making something good out of whatever.

Our lives are, for the most part, efforts to build or strengthen alliances. However chaotically it happens, we are each at the moment either strengthening a present alliance or a nurturing a new one that is forming. These influences can be seem in our choice of occupation, computers, football teams, churches, political parties, and all the other habits, forms and customs of our families and cultures. Perhaps the ultimate expression of our alliance is written in our DNA where race, sex and other traits are stored. Many of our impulses of life are geared toward spreading compassion, knowledge, families and love. But even these may be seen in the context of survival, of strengthening our positions and alliances. Always in the background is the deep fear of extinction�of death. Therefore we're constantly jockeying for some better position within the present alliance or trying to repel or weaken some rival alliance. And that's not simply to say that one side is as good as another. Nazis and Islamic Fascists deserve to be opposed and should be opposed. But seen from a higher perspective you might, for example, see a battle between good and evil, but at the very least you will see a battle between alliances. I'm not for the end of alliances or for the simplistic notion of "no more borders". We ought to gather around good notions and strengthen them. We ought to repel brutal and sadistic notions. But we might surprise ourselves if we looked around and, with help of a brutally honest assessment, see how many of our alliances are six of one, half a dozen of another. They hardly matter. They are distinctions of habit rather than merit. They are mere diversions, if that. It doesn't really matter if Pittsburgh wins the SuperBowl. It might not really matter if priests could marry. It might not really matter if John Kerry had won the election. (It's possible he might not have undermined the war on Islamo-Fascism and, in his drive to prove himself not soft on defense, he might have even done better.)

Reading more about St. Francis I was touched by the fact that he apparently had no desire to become a saint. Stories on his life vary so it's a bit hard to come up with a definitive life story�at least as far as I can tell. However, after his great life was finished he was indeed made a saint. In some ways, at least to me, it was almost like the Catholic Church adding a merit badge for its particular version of Christianity. It fed off of St. Francis' image to strengthen itself. Of course, it is also a worthy thing to keep alive his example so that it may continue to teach successive generations. I see both motives at work and, of course, many would say (perhaps rightly) that strengthening the Church for the Church's sake is a worthy goal. I'll leave that up to Catholics to decide. But I think we might capture from this a glimpse at what is truly holy and why.

St. Francis might have just as easily been burned at the stake as been made a saint. His actions at the time seemingly went quite a ways against the grain. But the thing we marvel at from even centuries into the future is his pure motives. THAT's the part, I think, that set his actions apart. It's why we remember him. Whether he was rebuilding the church or the Church, I don't know. It sure seems a lot of stuff was tacked onto his life after the fact just to strengthen someone's alliance. I think his acts and life seem so special because they were acts that were not particularly trying to strengthen anything but the very people he was coming into contact with. There were no ulterior motives. There was no half-measures or ugly compromises being slipped in under the guise of "for the greatest good". He just found someone who needed help and helped them. The love that people had for Francis must surely and clearly show his sincerity.

It seems clear the Francis used himself up. He cared not for his own survival. Perhaps this freed him of all the angst and attachments that bind us all and put us into inevitable conflict with our spoken principles. I'm not so sure that Francis' kind of poverty is absolutely necessary for developing pure love, but it clearly worked for him. But I just think poverty was a means, the nearest one at hand, for him to un-attach himself from the present overbearing circumstances of both the Church (which needed help), his family and the community who knew the old, wealthier and "normal" Francis. We might duplicate his acts while driving from hospital to hospital in a Mercedes. But we could never if our motive was to do anything but to help people in need. That's what he did and we still remember his miraculous life.

. . . By the way, this thread is a living example of making something good out of whatever.

Yes! And that would include the post above.

Thanks, Phil. I�m enjoying taking a break from talk radio and tuning into Troubadour FM and learning about St. Francis. He�s particularly interesting (at least to me) because he�s so real. He�s not perfect. He�s not even particularly perfect in his sainthood. I guess that�s what makes him so perfect.

More blathering�

It�s interesting to consider the element of poverty that ran so thickly through St. Francis� life and his entire orientation to life. Back in his time apparently (my knowledge is still quite thin) it was changing from a feudal system to a more capitalistic system with an expanding middle class. Prior to that there was only the privileged rich and the powerless poor.

But if the point is to uplift and help those around us then we might today choose a different technique than poverty. Although you�ll get no argument from me that there is more to life than material wealth, we do clearly have it in our grasp to help people (and to help people help themselves) in such a way as to lift most out of poverty. Although there�s no denying the edifying benefits of living a life oriented toward something other than material goods (and, in fact, I think without this orientation in our lives to a significant extent then all the material goods in the world aren�t going to drag us out of out of a greater type of poverty), I think it�s reasonable to say that pain, suffering and ill-health can accumulate to such an extent in people that I wonder really if they�ve got much left to learn through their deprivation.

So if the goal is to uplift and help then we need to take an honest look at the most effective and practical way to do so. Although it might be nice, I doubt we�re all going to turn into St. Francis or St. Clare tomorrow. And perhaps we don�t need to. We might in our own way provide significant help just by living our dirty, western, selfish, democratic capitalistic lives. It seems obvious to me that any long-term solution to helping people is giving them the means to help themselves (democracy/capitalism). And in the short term we will also need to reach into our St. Francis bag-of-tricks and just give because people are in need (such as tsunami relief). And it will require real wisdom to know when to do one and not the other. The fact is that we can and do do great harm to people by making them dependent on charity. We can kill their dignity. We might make ourselves feel better, but we might be doing little to fix the people and the problem.

I see the St. Francises of the world as the daredevils, the risk-takers, the pioneers and astronauts. We need them to show us the way. There will never not be the need for someone to just shuck all they have and go help the needy. There are some people who just can�t wait for democracy or capitalism to develop. They need help now. And they need non-predatory help most of all (hence Christians are outstanding help-givers as opposed to organizations like the U.N.). We need people interested in helping for help�s sake and not in advancing some ulterior cause or ideology whose ultimate end is coercion and control.

I have no doubt there are saints all around us today that we don�t even notice (at least that the powers-that-be don�t notice). We have a very particular idea of what a saint should do and look like, but why can�t the actual chores of the saints have changed over the centuries even if their hearts are of the same purity? Might a saint be the political leader or business leader whose actual actions lead to the happiness, freedom and nourishment of tens of millions? Are we in danger of falling prey to a lack of imagination (and good judgment) and, say, doing the same thing as the Nobel committee and judging a Yasser Arafat as a peacemaker while the true peacemakers go unnoticed? Of course, I happily admit that the vetting process of Pope John Paul II is heads and tails over the Nobel committee. I�m not saying that traditional saints aren�t saints, only that if we are to expend beyond a sort of self-denial and self-mutilation as things worthy of praise then we might consider expanding the definition of sainthood.