It's late and I have a wild hair to start such a thread . . . but my views of politics don't always allow me to sleep well . . . . such as how I feel Muslim and Arab cultures are retrograde and need to be contained with a heavy hand re: the linkage between shame-based misogynist families, Islam and terrorism.

Much of the torture that occured (still?) in Iraq is the result of not generating security. But Guantanemo is probably utilizing various methods, and key Al Qaeda figures carted off to Egypt or wherever they take them are probably treated abysmally in some cases. I can't completely get on board, in conscience, with the justification: "If we spare them then vital information lost leads to thousands or millions of deaths."

So I'd like a discussion re: Catholic moral theology and how precarious, looming issues involved in protecting western civilization can be treated.

Here is an attempt to unravel the issue from a conservative American perspective. I'm not sure if this is what you are asking for, but it may be in the ballpark:

http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_08_29/article.html

Personally, I have had trouble letting go of the feelings. My heart has been troubled since 9-11 and I find myself obsessing. I don't believe it's God's will for me to carry this burden. It's like a bag of rocks around my shoulders. One more time
I'll turn it over. Maybe I'll take it back tomorrow, and repeat the process...

At the end of the tape "To End All Wars" there was a brief documentary on a British and a Japanese participant from that particular POW camp had become a Christian minister and a Buddhist monk, and worked for peace in their own way and kept in touch. So, one of Phil's favorite scriptures comes to mind, Romans 8:28,29.

I knew a wise person who would ask me three questions:

What's the payoff?

What's the fear behind it?

Where is God in all of this?

Benedict or Bush? A worthwhile question.

shalom, mm <*))))><

America is immoral, currupt and a far cry from Catholic moral theology. We have a long way to go and at the same time are much much closer than the people we go to war with, excepting some Indian tribes, so, to me, it's all a matter of perspective.
Ask the Kurds and the families of those run through wood chippers if we should go home. Ask every abused
child in Asia if they would like some Catholic moral
theology. At least, that's the way I feel today.

caritas, mm <*))))><

So I'd like a discussion re: Catholic moral theology and how precarious, looming issues involved in protecting western civilization can be treated.

I think Catholics everywhere (in fact, all people) can do a great service to justice and peace if they are very scrupulous about the truth. Misinformation, misunderstanding, deception, exaggeration, and outright lies can provide a host of hiding places for violent, immoral activity in the world. I think we�d be surprised just how much the world might change if we quit winking at devils. Imagine if the world, in one voice, had long ago publicly shamed and cast off Arafat, and had stopped pretending that he was some sort of statesman for a people being brutalized by Jews. A dose of reality would have benefited everyone, Jew and Palestinian�unless, of course, one�s ambition in the first place was to wipe the Jews off the face of the map of the Middle East.

A Catholic (or anyone, for that matter) need not be a hawk or a warmonger in order to oppose evil and to therefore pursue peace and justice. One simply needs to stare evil down and call it by its name. Granted, black and white or good vs. evil scenarios don�t always exist. Sometimes there are complications, extenuating circumstances, complex details, or just no perfect choice. But sometimes they do exist and we do the truth a disservice, and give evil an inside track, if we blanch from stating the obvious. We do not service justice or peace by thinking we can moderate or mollify a black/white situation by calling it gray. When we do that we simply give aid and comfort to evil. But there are, obviously, times when to ratchet an argument into pure "good vs. evil" terms is to also give aid and comfort to evil by oversimplifying a situation and spreading our own misunderstanding and perhaps misinformation.

No one is expected to be perfect, but I think we forget that being a citizen in a free world requires at least a minimum involvement of one�s attention and intellect. We have to inform ourselves regarding important issues or else our opinions are next to worthless. In fact, we otherwise become pawns of the spin machines of the various political parties, academia pointy-heads, or media.

We hired the President to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. Woe unto those who have a different agenda, foreign or domestic. They will lose. Osama's peace is far too costly. Lotsa links and differing viewpoints:

http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/justwar/

I think this site provides a good introduction to Catholic social teaching, which has seen a multitude of high level documents come into circulation during the past century. The "Major Themes" area might be a good place to start. It'll seem pretty Green/liberal, at times, but keep if you keep in mind Catholicism's emphasis on individual rights, the right to own private property, and subsidiarity principles in the political realm, it won't seem imbalanced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolence

It's something which appeals to my idealism, but pragmatism suggests that gradual disarmament of this
world will be accomplished in stages. Work for peace
by promoting spiritual values. One peace site I went to says that the world will spend $1 trillion on armaments this year! Collective insanity! No reason for followers of the Prince of Peace to be bored with this much work ahead of us. Busy, busy, busy...

u_may_say_i'm_a_dreamer@visualize_whirled_peas.com

We hired the President to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. Woe unto those who have a different agenda, foreign or domestic.

MM, one can disagree with the strategy of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice and Bush to battle Islamic terrorism without resorting to conspiracy theories, but do you really believe their aim is for empire or something and not fighting terrorism? To quote Victor Davis Hanson:

quote:

Iraq? Huh? And the reaction at home? Apparently no matter. The media has long since written Iraq off as a "quagmire" and a "debacle." The war is now hopelessly politicized and has been misrepresented in two national elections. Then we heard that the war�s purpose was either to steal oil (the price actually skyrocketed), enrich Halliburton (in fact, few other conglomerates wished to venture to Iraq), or do Israel�s dirty work (it just withdrew voluntarily from Gaza). Our aims were said to be anything other than to remove the worst dictator in modern memory, allow the Arab world a chance at democracy, and undo the calculus of Middle-Eastern terrorism that is so parasitic on the failures and barbarity of regional autocracies

Since the American experiment itself has not lived
up to the promise of it's own constitution yet, it should not be difficult to find extremists of various stripes who would like to do away with it living among us.