I don't know if it is the entire church but I do know that it is the Churches in VA. that are splitting.Fred Barnes stated that this was going to lead to a nationwide problem as it was a very strong undercurrent at present in so many of the churches.I surely wouldn't know as I'm not Anglican but he is and seems pretty asute on the suject, but I could be wrong.

Phil. I hadn't seen that article it , I've read some articles that Bill receives from the Diaconate online and from the Diocese. It's a concern. I know there is a concern that some are trying to dilute the divinty of Christ regarding different interprations of Scripture etc and through changing Dogma.I don't know how prelant it is but theseeds are being planted big time and the people are getting very concerned in the American Church

OK, now I Know what you mean. I've heard of that situation in VA and have even done some consulting about it. It's more about the gay marriage issue than belief in the divinity of Christ. I'm sure Episcopalians still do believe, and that if the issue is pushed, it will carry the day.

- - -

"In the Spirit the Church is the mystery of the Risen One, his sacramental presence. It might be called the Pneumatopshere, in which the preaching of the Apostles, the Good News, is always alive and present, continuing the 'witness of the prophets, the apostles and all the disciples.'. Faithful and creative Tradition therefore is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ; not passing things down, but 'newness of the Spirit', the newness that is constantly being renewed in persons.

"The Spirit abounds most plentifully in the sacramental body of Christ (the Church), but wherever the Spirit is at work in history and in the universe, the Church is secretly present. There is not a blade of grass that does not grow within the Church, not a constellation that does not gravitate towards her, every quest for truth, for justice, for beauty is made within her (even if the prophets and great creative spirits have sometimes been persecuted by the ecclesiastical institution, every scrap of meditation, of wisdom, of celebration is gathered in by her (even though Christianity has at certain times formed itself into a religious association that ignored or fought against other people."

- from Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism

Merry Christmas to all of you!

Hello Phil & WC:

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] Another small point . . .

The Church isn't perfect, but it IS holy! That is to say that it exists in and for God. But the individual, flesh-and-blood people who constitute the Church are not perfect; we are, in fact, sinful, not just in our bodies, but in our spirits as well. Our acts of faith are also imperfect, but they are accepted by Christ. What we are, in Christ, is a sick, cancerous social organism being healed and transformed by his Holy Spirit. If one doesn't want to join a Church body because it is sick and cancerous, then that is understandable, but there is no other kind to join -- not even hypothetically. There is no perfect Church on earth, only in heaven, where the "Church triumphant" waits as we do for the full establishment of the reign of God on earth. [/qb]

I'd like to ask some things about the people
of the Church being sick. Like what is being
done, on a human level, to assist the healing of this situation.
In my case i came away from my early childhood
experiences of church and G*d with PTS. I know that since that time some things have been learned about child development. I'm unaware personally how children are treated in Church now.

WC you commented to one of the parents on the devil discussion that as a professional you were obligated to report spanking abuse to the authorities.

I wonder if professionals are now obilgated to do the same for a young child who was being verbally and spiritual abused by a Church, minister, priest or nun.
I know that it took individuals suing the RC Church before they would do anything to address the sexual abuse that was going on.

I'm just trying to understand Phil what you mean by, religious trauma (of various types) exists for YHWH Phil.

Thank you
Ajoy

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] .......
What we are, in Christ, is a sick, cancerous social organism being healed and transformed by his Holy Spirit. [/qb]

.

I have come to understand it is the energy of the
wording that i simply don't agree with here.
I experienced alot of negative messages when i was young in the church and i just don't agree
with it's use. But as a child i was never able to say such things. Doesn't mean i expect anyone to change. It just means i don't accept what is being said.


Ajoy

I'm not sure what you're struggling with here, Ajoy. The way I worded things, it sounds like. But I don't know what part. The wording is strong, I'll grant you, but that's the reality, imo. We do not suddenly become perfect, healed, holy, etc. because we come to Christ. We are as individuals and communities sick with sin and wounded in many ways. That's who we are, and Christ accepts us as such, blessing us with his Spirit to bring forth healing and holiness. Some communities manifest this spiritual health more than others, for sure, but they are far from perfect. I find it helpful to acknowledge this, as it helps to counter unrealistic expectations about the behavior of people (even leaders) in the Church.

Dear Ajoy,

It is very sad to hear that you suffered so deeply at the hands of so-called 'holy' people in your church. If by PTS you mean Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, I am very sorry for what you went through. I know that in PTS, the traumatizing experiences are re-lived over and over again in vivid ways.

I am struck by your commment that you were not able to talk about what was happening to you as a child. But now, you CAN talk about it, and you can be heard and understood. Nobody here will deny that hateful, sadistic, and perverted abuse can happen at the hands of church leaders.

The mental health system does mandate reporting of physcial and sexual abuse by "reporting agencies." These differ from state to state, I beleive, but basically include the medical and mental health professions. Unfortunately, Child Protective Services are not so sophisticated as to mandate the reporting of mental and spiritual abuse.

What has the Catholic Church done on the human level to prevent further abuse of children? I have no idea. Maybe Phil knows.

My wish has been that Catholic priests and other church leaders ought to go through in-depth psychological interviewing and assessment before being allowed to minister/work with young children. I know a lot of the deeply disturbed folks would light up like neon bulbs on the MMPI and Rorschach test alone.

Wishing you Christ peace, Ajoy,

Shasha

What has the Catholic Church done on the human level to prevent further abuse of children? I have no idea. Maybe Phil knows.

Most of the cases are from the 70s and before, as they began to face stiff lawsuits even in the late 70s. It's pretty much "one strike and you're out" now; no more hope that counseling and treatment programs can cure the problem, as church leaders were told in the 60s and 70s. The big news last year was that even homosexual seminarians may no longer be accepted. I'm not sure how far that one has advanced, policy-wise.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:
[QB] "I'm not sure what you're struggling with here, Ajoy."

I have come to layers of different understandings
and healing in this issue.

Thank you Phil and Shasha for your kindness and assistance.

Ajoy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phil:
[QB] I'm not sure what you're struggling with here, Ajoy."

Phil, i have not had words to express until now.
I was reading something posted on another thread. In that were words that rang true to my chilhood experience of being taught about G*d.
I know only a little about archeltypes but this
seemed to say it all. The Dark Father archeltype. Destroyer of all that isn't perfect, yet he was a angry, vengeful G*d. In Hindu teachings i believe it might relate to Shiva or Shakti. Don't remember who the destroyer is in Hinduism.

No doubt that this is why i relate to YHWH in much more of an impersonal way. So when you say
you have a personal relationship with Jesus or
G*d, are these relationships with archeltypes or
is this something else?
Don't understand yet how to use these message icons so if they end up all over the place, sorry.

Thank you
Ajoy

Ajoy, we believe that God and the resurrected Jesus are not simply archetypal projections, but beings who interact with us in a way similar to how two human beings interact.

Hope this helps.

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] What has the Catholic Church done on the human level to prevent further abuse of children? I have no idea. Maybe Phil knows.

Most of the cases are from the 70s and before, as they began to face stiff lawsuits even in the late 70s. It's pretty much "one strike and you're out" now; no more hope that counseling and treatment programs can cure the problem, as church leaders were told in the 60s and 70s. The big news last year was that even homosexual seminarians may no longer be accepted. I'm not sure how far that one has advanced, policy-wise. [/qb]

Phil, I don�t understand the logic of the growing, Vatican-based discrimination of homosexuals in the Church.

As far as I understand it, a paedophile (whether layman, priest, Bishop or Cardinal) is just as likely to like little girls as little boys. In fact more so.

So why the divine -- or not so divine -- inspiration to weed out gays from positions in the Church? Paedophiles, yes, but that has in itself nothing to do with homosexuality.

-- Befuddled

Some studies do show a relationship between homosexuality and pedophilia.
- http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n...asp?ARTICLE_ID=27431

But even if that were not the case, the Vatican isn't so keen on what has become a high percentage of homosexuals in priestly formation (estimates of 10 - 60%; sources I know personally say it's around 30%). See http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc1.htm for a good discussion of Vatican policies re. homosexuality and ordination.

We do have a few discussions on the morality of homosexuality in relation to ministry.

- On blessing same-sex marriages

- Gay marriage

- Is homosexuality psychopathological

- Pedophile priests

Let's use one of those to continue the discussion on pedophilia, if there's anything we haven't already said on them (at least five times ).