I remember a passage in the Bible which talks about people living forever ?'physically' with animals in a harmonious environment/heaven. (Questions:So are there animals in heaven? Will there be people of different ages. If a person become perfect, what does he think about? Do people sing Hymns all day/night? Do they have to be 'fruitful'?)

I also read in the Bible that Heaven is a place where there is no more suffering or pain or tears.
(Do people understand about love without some amount of responsibility?)

In the last day, Christian will be raised from the dead and rise up to Heaven....

I am not rejecting there is a Heavenly place where man go after death but what I don't understand is why Christian believe it only happen at the Last Day!

Another thing I do not understand is that in the Last Day, those who believe in Christ will have the privilege of being cured of all sins and become completely NEW BEING no mater what sin they may have in the past...just because they confess being saved by Christ.

It sound like our deep desire to have instantaneous transformation in everything without real hard work. For example Gastric Bypass will take off pounds quickly; laser treatment will take away the wrinkles; etc.

I am open to hear your viewpoint.

quote:

just because they confess being saved by Christ.

Exactly! That is the amazing thing about being a Christian. It is something that no other religion has.
Faith is not easy however, we are constantly challenged by the world we live in, our circumstances, our own sinfulness, but if through the grace of God we can hold onto our faith then we are saved! We are so sinful that we cannot do anything to save ourselves - that's why saved by works alone is inadequate, but that doesn't mean that we can't do our best not to sin - but God knows we just can't help ourselves. There's a big difference between coldly deciding to sin and sinning in the heat of the moment though! God knows the difference too!
The Bible also says that words cannot convey what heaven will be like. So I have no idea what it will be like. I trust God on that one (and on whether I'll be there!)
FrancesB

I'm in agreement with Frances, here, on the need for grace. I think one's openness to it goes far beyond a matter of simply confessing Christ, however; the mouth can do that without the heart being much involved.

ithink, from this and your previous threads, it sounds like you're new to Christianity, and that you're looking to clarify your understanding of Christian teaching and the spiritual journey. Am I far off the mark, here? Can you tell us a little more about your background . . . where you're coming from?

Phil,
Thanks for asking about my faith, I consider myself a truth seeker. I was looking for a forum that can discuss about stuff and is reasonable about Christian theology which I find has a lot of contradictions which Christian cannot explain and when they are stuck, I always get, 'just have faith'.

I came from a Buddhist background. I remembered a trek I received that buddha said,' If you find a higher truth, follow that truth'. Then I study a little of different religions.

I love Jesus and his teachings. But I find people ignore a lot of the things he talked about.

Example:

-If you love me, why do you kill me.

-if you love Moses, you would love me.

-if you love God, you would love me.

-follow me, believe in me. john 6:28

-john 8:39-47,...he who is of God, hear the word
of god....you are not of God.

-he who is not with me is against me..

-John 8:39-47..if you are Abraham's children
you would do what
Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me...

-you are my friends if you do what I command
you. john 15:12-14

-My soul is SORROWFUL... the son of man is
BETRAYED....

-Matt 21:33-38, Parable of the vineyard...
Afterward he send his son to them, saying
'THEY WILL RESPECT MY SON'...

-O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets
and stoning those who are sent to you...

and many many more evidence of Jesus wanted the
people to believe and love him, and follow him.

-Acts 7:51-53
..and they killed those who anounced before hand
the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have
now betrayed and murdered..

Corinthians 1:8
- None of the rulers of this age understood this
for if they had, they WOULD NOT have crucified
the Lord of Glory.

Actually I feel a strong sadness in my heart how
time has twisted so much truth...

I am afraid even the best lawyer would not be
able to change the years of brain washing
we had.

Actually, I am amazed how even the smartest
inteligent people who ask so many quetions and
tear thing apart would not ask the right
questions.

I know the usual Christian answer,' I just
want simple faith'. 'Jesus come to die for me.'
'God already know Jesus is going to die on the
cross...'

I wonder why God gave us intellect???!!

Sorry I am frustrated. Don't you HEAR and FEEL
Jesus FRUSTRATION when you read his words?!

I guess I said enough.....

By the way, I know another common Christian arguement is, 'The Jewish people did not
know because they are blinded by Satan...'
, .

Now come to think of it, Jewish people are suppose to know better! That is the reason God prepare a place or environment where he can send his Son so he can be protected.

God send the wise man to ? come to take care, educated and protect Jesus?

John the baptist is suppose to make the WAY STRAIGHT!

Jesus was born in the high priest's house..

I guess the one who is given the responsibility goofed. And they have to bear the burden of the consequence. We are lucky not to have this extraordinary responsibiity but that does not mean we continue to make the same mistake...

Our mistake is not understanding why Jesus come!

Sorry , I am wrong.....
I think Chritian do know why Jesus come.. TO SAVE THE WORLD. But I think my disagreement is the 'HOW' he is going to do it.

Christian believe he is going to come in a BANG
and the Chritian will be taken up.

I believe the first step has to be done on earth.
Then we will receive our reward in the after world...

There are many evidence of the importance of our practical life on earth...Actually the requirement of high standard ...

eg:
1John 3:15,
Any one who HATES his brother is a MURDERER, and you know that no murderer has eternal lfe abiding in him.

...Mt 5:29
if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out.../ if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off...

(Unfortunately the Christian has again excuse for these teaching, "That is why it so great we have Jesus who will forgive us and make us free'.....)

Yes, I believe in the love, compassion and forgiveness, just not in the excuses not to reach the standard the Jesus wants us to have...
It will take time... I don't believe we will not make mistake..

I don't completely understand this passage... but sound like what i believe in..

Hebrew 10:26-27
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a fearful propect of judment...

By the way, I know another common Christian arguement is, 'The Jewish people did not know because they are blinded by Satan...'

I'm not sure who you're referencing, but that's certainly not a common Christian belief. Christians have the utmost respect for the Jews, believing them to be the race God covenanted with to prepare the world for the incarnation of Christ. We continue to use the Ten Commandments in our own ethical perspective, and do not view Jews as a people possessed by Satan. In fact, we don't view any race that way.

You also seem to have this view that Christians are narrow-minded and afraid to question their own beliefs, resorting to "just have faith" when the going gets tough. I don't know where you've come across that, but it helps to know a bit about your background and that you're sorting things out.

I'd suggest you check out the Christian Mysteries forum on this board for a straightforward summary of basic Christian teaching. It might help if we had at least that much to stand on together.

*****By the way, I know another common Christian arguement is, 'The Jewish people did not know because they are blinded by Satan...'
******************************************

When I said the above, I do not mean any bad feeling to the Jewish people. I RESPECT
JEWS, AND CATHOLICS, MORMONS......

May be I generalised what I said, but it is true that Christian believe that the people of that time
was influenced by the 'dark forces' not to believe in Jesus.

Jesus said something very serious to the Jewish leaders, "you are of your father the devil..."

But I hope we can agree with what Jesus said to the people/ Jews/ the world, ' Believe in me ,
follow me,'.... He never said, ' Kill me, so you can be saved.'

I respect the absolute love of Christians for Jesus, it is a good thing. But is absolute love for buddha or
absolute love for Allah wrong? If so, why?
Does not mean I agree with their teachings.

I know it is going to be a challenging topic.... Not a popular one.....May be I will be banished?!
....

. . . May be I will be banished?!

Only if you start insisting that you're the reincarnation of Christ and that those who disagree with you are going to hell.

But . . . with all due respect, ithink, maybe you ought to do a little more reading about the basics of Christian belief before attempting to dialogue about them. It seems that you've gone to the Bible and are trying to understand some things, and that's fine. Only, you should know that the Church has been addressing many of the kinds of questions you're raising from the beginning.

E.g. But I hope we can agree with what Jesus said to the people/ Jews/ the world, ' Believe in me ,
follow me,'.... He never said, ' Kill me, so you can be saved.'

You're comparing apples and oranges, here. And while it's true that Jesus never said "Kill me so you can be saved," he did say "For the Son of Man himself did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mk. 10: 45).

It seems that what you're doing is viewing Jesus through buddhist eyes with the view that one is saved by keeping his teaching and acting as he did. While that's certainly emphasized in Christian spirituality, the point you're missing is what was accomplished through his death and resurrection that makes such actions efficacious unto salvation.

Take your time. Check out The Catechism of the Catholic Church for a comprehensive summary of Catholic teaching (most Protestants would agree with 98% of what's in there, so it's a basic reference for everyone, really). I don't think this is the forum to get an education on basic Christian teaching, however. Use the Christian Mysteries forum if you want to discuss some of the basic concepts if you have questions.

quote:

Faith is not easy however, we are constantly challenged by the world we live in, our circumstances, our own sinfulness, but if through the grace of God we can hold onto our faith then we are saved!

"we can hold onto our faith then we are saved!"

Would this then not be something that we are doing? If it is us that must hold on to the faith then that implies we are required to perform some type of action or salvation is lost. How then does it imply grace if I must do something to have it?

If it is by grace then why doesn't God just hold on to it for me? Would that be too easy?

So then is action required for salvation or isn't it?

Phil,
Thank you for your advice. I will look into the forum you recommend sometimes.

Sorry, I did get 'emotional' about some religious issues. Then I repented because I am no better than anyone. What I need is more love in my heart.

So, I am just going to listen and digest things for a little while.

I salute all my friends here, and Phil, Brad, Eric,Frances,
HAPPY NEW YEAR 2006. BEST WISHES AND LOVE!

ithink,

I don't see any need for repentance here. You came here to learn and share and I think that is what you are doing.

Phil was just letting you know that this forum had a certain topic and probably isn't the most appropriate place for Christianity 101. I've been in your shoes as well.

Your opinion will be respected here but come prepared. If you're mistaken about something someone will surely point that out. You'll get used to that. I have. The ego might feel bruised but that's what learning is all about.

Happy New Year to you also.

Jesus spoke often of hell. I'm not really comfortable about that, but there must be a reason.

I heard he spoke of hell more than heaven.

I salute all my friends here, and Phil, Brad, Eric,Frances,
HAPPY NEW YEAR 2006. BEST WISHES AND LOVE!

What a tremendously nice thing to say, ithink. And Happy New Year to you too.

As Christ consciousness is in us so also is Our Father's heavenly kingdom. Since we are in a quest for happiness and the essence of our being, this consciousness is a pearl of great price. It is a sacrifice, until we start imitating Christ consciousness and forget the brutal pursuit of crude active pleasures and the pain that brings us to hell. When pleasure no longer becomes the chief purpose of our life and the joy of God�s kingdom is realized, the ego dominated slave is set free to follow the deepest nature of our being as our mind steps out of the chaos of life and steps towards Christ consciousness to enter God�s kingdom of heaven in pure consciousness and bliss.
http://thinkunity.com

Hello soma. Thank you for joining this and other discussions. I've just searched the web and see that it hasn't gone so well for you on other Christian sites. Some of what you've shared so far and what I've read on your site sounds a bit "new agey," but let's see how it goes.

Thank you, The ideas on Christianity are different, but I feel the truth will shine through.