It appears that many Christian denominations are continuing to have a difficult time resolving the writings of St. Paul with the changing understanding of gender roles.

It is my opinion that women's leadership is critical to the continued vitality and survival of Christianity.

What is the likelihood that the Catholics and conservative Protestant denominations will readily ordain women to lead as priests and pastors?

This step is (in my estimation) of great necessity yet it will cause much debate regarding biblical interpretaion.

Welcome, Kevin!

You bring up a good topic, which has the potential to take us into some interesting areas. For Catholics, at least, the prohibitions against women and Orders isn't all that connected to Paul's writings, at least not very directly. There is a recognition that, in many cases, Paul is speaking from his cultural conditioning, as when he says women should be quiet in assemblies, or wear a hat.

No changes will happen in the Catholic Church anytime soon--not with this Pope, for sure, who has stated that the question is not open for discussion.

Even though women are not ordained or pastors, there are nonetheless significant leaders in every Church community, I'm sure. Orders just grants them another level of responsibility, which many would be happy to embrace, no doubt.

Let's hear what others have to say on this issue.

Phil

I attend Methodist and we do ordain women as Pastors. One of the reasons being that men were simply not going into the ministry and even with the female Pastors we are still losing three times as many to retirement as we have replenishing the field. Our own Pastor is Pastor for three churches. None are very large, but it is still a daunting task to be a Pastor/Counselor to that many different locations. As for Paul's writings, it was discussed at one time that he says women are not to have authority over men...the Pastor, in the Methodist denomination is NOT in authority over anyone, the administrative board is who is the authority. As for the "teaching" aspect..some were of the opinion that a Pastor is not necessarily a "teacher" perse' in many instances, but rather a shepherd. The teaching is generally done in bible studies and Sunday School settings. Personally, I'm undecided. I can see the points made biblically about Christ being the Head, then the husband, then the wife and how that applies to the church as well, but it is a very real situation of there simply not being enough Pastors to go around these days. It seems that as gender roles in society has changed...so has the role in the churches changed. I've heard some wonderful, dynamic female preachers who brought an entirely different angle to scripture teaching/preaching. However, in many respects I have also seen women become domineering and unsympathetic to male members of the congregation (which, of course, I've seen from male Pastors as well). I am always drawn, though, to scripture that states there is no longer male and female in Christ. We are new creations...creations of the spirit, not of the flesh. This has always been a source of puzzlement to me as Paul is the one who stated this..yet is also the one who directs not to allow women to teach or have authority over the men. I understand that he had reasons for this in the churches he was speaking to. My understanding is that he was directing this rule, at least in one instance, because some of the prominent and wealthy women of the church were bringing in sorcerers and such to be a part of the Christian experience. I'm no theologian (obviously!..lol) nor am I a scholar, but it seems that practicality has to have some bearing on the decisions made concerning all this.
Okay..there's my 2 cents worth..lol...for now anyway

Hi...
Being Episcopalian, we too ordain women to serve as Priests and even Bishops.. so we do have women with authority over men.... or as much authority as is present in a "servant ministry" which is how we see our orders. We also have women who teach - myself for one.
Now having said that... and adding that I am mostly in support of women serving in these positions, I do have reservations.
These are more of a practical nature than a theological though and are primarily concerned with those women priests with young children. Having raised three children and having worked closely with both priests and pastors I know that both are very demanding jobs... both time wise and emotionally. I have seen our priest struggle to balance the needs of her family with the needs of the community she serves and there have been times when one or the other or both have suffered.
Men too have families, but let's face it... in this society it is still considered the position of the woman to care for her families emotional and to a lesser extent physical needs. How many women do you know who work themselves to a frazzle trying to hold down a 9 to 5 job and care for a family at the same time? We try to have it all and to do it all and most times, that simply isn't possible... or if so.. barely... especially with young children.
Perhaps this is yet another reason Paul wasn't keen on the idea of women being involved in positions of leadership and responsibility in the church. Don't know.... but it is something that should be considered perhaps.
Peace,
Wanda

Hi Wanda,
Yep....I completely agree because as you said, women are still expected to be in the wife/mother/household manager position and it IS emotioinally draining to try to do that AND be a Pastor. Our Pastor's wife is also the Pastor of the Presbyterian church in a neighboring town. They have two small children ages 5 and 8. I, frankly, don't know how she keeps her sanity. She is a tremendous speaker and apparently a very good Pastor as half her church showed up for our Ladies Night at the church over here. They sang her praises all night long. So I think you make an excellent point there.

There's just lots and lots of research to show that there's absolutely no substitute for "Mom" when it comes to raising little ones. Of course, women in ministry are at no greater disadvantage here than women doctors, lawyers, and even educators. One of my daughters teaches first grade, and it takes everything out of her. No kids so far, but I don't know how she'd have any energy for a child if she taught full-time.

I'm sure if this gender thing was a matter of life and death in religion, Jesus would have made at least a passing mention of it during His earthly ministry (in the Sermon on the Mount or some place else)and we would have got to read about it in the Gospels. But Jesus didn't.

God created humans in His image and likeness - male and female He created them. I believe that gender differences don't exist at the level of the spirit.

Like Phil wrote, Paul was speaking in a different era and in a different cultural context. It is ridiculous to make an absolute truth out of it. Once again like Phil mentioned, there is no substitute for mom in raising kids. What about a mom who has fulfilled her responsibilities to her small children or a woman who chooses to remain single? I'm sure God trusts us to do what is in the best interests of the children and also what is best for the spiritual growth of the whole Christian community, without getting caught up in meaningless debates about whether a female is worthy or unworthy of being a priest or pastor based on her gender. If there aren't enough males around to serve the Christian community as priests and pastors, does it make any sense to say 'Better stick to Paul's view and leave the Christian flock unattended than ordain women"?

"What about a mom who has fulfilled her responsibilities to her small children or a woman who chooses to remain single? I'm sure God trusts us to do what is in the best interests of the children and also what is best for the spiritual growth of the whole Christian community, without getting caught up in meaningless debates about whether a female is worthy or unworthy of being a priest or pastor based on her gender."

Priya,

I know women priests that have chosen to remain single, that were ordained after their children were grown, and also some who presently have small children. I also know one who chose to leave active ministry and stay home to raise her children. I truly believe that women make wonderful priests... but I also believe that a woman has a more difficult time - and that this is something that needs to be addressed, both on a personal level and as a community... not to ban but to support.
Wanda

.. but I also believe that a woman has a more difficult time - and that this is something that needs to be addressed, both on a personal level and as a community... not to ban but to support.

Wanda, maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by women having "a more difficult time" in ministry. Do you mean because of their lack of acceptance by the community?

Needless to say, much of this discussion is "besides the point" for Catholics. I wish it weren't so, but alas . . .

I must confess, I've never confessed to a Priest. Nor am I in the habit of confessing to a woman. But should I ever become a Catholic I'd prefer having a choice. And if Catholicism ever allowed women to become Priests I would defnitely take a second look at that religion.

What needs to be said about allowing women to Holy Orders in the Catholic Church is that this is a relatively new question in Church history--no more than 20 or so years old, really. In terms of Church time, that's only an eyeblink ago, and it usually takes many decades for a change of this magnitude to become accepted, if that's ever to be.

Why? Well, first of all, in early Christianity, men alone were ordained as presbyters and bishops, the reason being that women in those cultures were not accepted as leaders. Jesus and the early Church raised the stature of women to a new level of dignity, but it was still a long ways from making them leaders. It wasn't really until the 20th C. that all sorts of questions about men and women's roles broke into the public forum, and resulted in wholesale social changes, some of which might not be for the better. The Church is just a little slower than most institutions in dealing with some of this, especially since layers and layers of theological justifications have been encrusted over the doctrine of ordaining men only.

In a way, there have been many advantages to the Church working slowly in such matters. Only, in this day and age when social changes take place so quickly, the Church can easily find itself judged as regressive if it drags its heels too long on an issue like this one.

Hi everyone,

Thought I would take a minute and try and answer your question Phil.

"Wanda, maybe you could say a little more about what you mean by women having "a more difficult time" in ministry. Do you mean because of their lack of acceptance by the community?"

The lack of acceptance is part of it... and not only among people in their parishes but in the church as well.... not everyone thinks women should be ordained.... even in those denominations where it is permitted.

I think too it is more difficult for those who are trying to be priest, mother, and wife at the same time. All working women have it difficult but the vocation of priest is not your typical 9-5 job .... you are pretty much on call 24-7.... and it is almost impossible I would think to leave your work at the office. Then too... how do you call off if your child is sick and a parishioner is dying or getting married or even if it is Sunday...
As liberated as we women are... we are still the primary caregivers in our families in most cases.... and that makes some things more difficult.
Anyhow... that's what I meant.
Peace,
Wanda

Well....I'm going to throw something into the mix here..lol. A friend and I have discussed this many times on this subject. It seems that, over all, men are more steady..they don't get shaken by many things and have great stamina for staying "fixed" in a decision. This, in my opinion, goes all the way back to the hunter/warrior/provider make up they were created with. Women, on the other hand, seem to be more inclined to letting emotion enter the picture and are less likely to stay "fixed" in their decisions. This going back to care-giver/nurturer/mother attitude that we were created with. Perhaps, there is some merit to a male only Priesthood or Pastorship when we take these things into consideration. This also takes in Wanda's observations about women being the primary care-giver and still being on call as a Pastor/Priest. Men have more freedom in that respect. Note that I'm speaking in general terms here...we all know that this has changed greatly in the last 3 decades. Now we have single mothers, single fathers, stay at home dads, career women....etc. So the whole playing field has changed drastically. But, my point was that maybe besides the society being patriarchal in bible times, there was a valid argument based on the things noted up there ^^^.
Spiritually speaking, I see no reason for one over the other...but as we've seen by Wanda's posts and mine and some other statements..it does seem that practical and individual circumstances can alter the do-ability of this.

Wanda and Terri, I can certainly go along with some of the concerns you're raising, but I was attempting to address that of women in positions of religious leadership, which seemed to be the point of the opening post. All of the negative aspects that go along with women working full time or being in a leadership position would seem to apply as much to women principals at schools, women doctors, lawyers, political leaders, etc., just as surely as religious leaders. Women have had to struggle in all those roles because of partriarchal prejudices, and so it's not all that different for women in the Church, only some traditions have fortified themselves with theological justifications for depriving them of ordination. That's a major distinction, however, and one not easy to overcome.

Phil

Phil

I agree 100% with you that the difficulties encountered by a woman in the role of a pastor/priest would not be any different from those encountered by women doctors, managers, lawyers, politicians etc. etc. When the idea of a woman priest/pastor becomes normal like in the other professions, solutions could be worked out about what to do when the child is sick and a parishioner is dying simultaneously etc. Get another pastor/priest to fill in for God's sake! There would be more around if the 'profession' opened itself up to women, at least as far as Catholics go! Just look at the wonderful work nuns do, running excellent educational institutions and hospitals etc.

By the way, in this context I should like to mention that it was women who first went to the tomb on Easter Sunday and reported the Resurrection of Jesus to the men, the hand-picked Apostles!

In discussing women being priests we assume that 'priest' is in the role we are familiar with.

Perhaps first we need to think more deeply about what a 'priest' is and what is the service role.

Catholic Theology defines "ordained ministry" as being an 'extension of the presence and role of the Bishop' who is considered to be "The Priest" of the Diocese.

Would it not be at least conceivable that he 'extends his sacramental, governing, teaching' service by 'ordaining' many different people who have the 'charism' - the natural gifts supplemented by whatever training and education might be needed?

The role and function of the community priest could be divided among many people in the community.

In a way it would be a return to the Pauline church where people who had the gifts were expected to use them, whether men or women. Thus all, together, building up the 'body of Christ.'

If we first had a different concept of 'priest' and the various functions and roles, then it would be much easier to accept that men and women could be 'ordained' by the Bishop to 'extend his presence' in the local community.

Very good points, Fr. Leo. A good addition to the discussion.

Welcome to the forum.