I would like to share the tru meaning behind Christmas, so that you all now will be clear and educated, by the truth! Please go to ..

http://jesus-is-lord.com/christm1.htm

And begin to walk with the lord.

Please E-Mail me your thoughts at wasylykm@alberta.com

Thank You

------------------

- from a similar thread opened by you -

Please once again open your mind and learn the truth, that a certain religion has made unknown to the world.

http://www.lasttrumpetministri...g/tracts/tract4.html

Once again I want to hear from you,

wasylykm@alberta.com

Your presumption that people who don't agree with you are not walking with the Lord makes it a little difficult to get motivated to discuss anything with you.

As we don't know when Jesus was born, the Church celebrates the birth of the Lord on December 25. This date was intentionally chosen to displace the pagan feast of the sun, celebrating the lengthening of days--smart move by the Church, I think.

Phil

I have absolutely nothing relevant to add to this discussion. That's never stopped me before so...

I went to a midnight Christmas mass once, a looong time ago, with my older brother. It was very solemn and peaceful inside the church, late at night, when most of the rest of the townspeople were having visions of sugarplums. I certainly came across nothing that made me go "Ahhh....Catholics...run!!!!". I'm quite sure that they were still using Latin at that time. Quite a pity really that that was changed. Is it still so?

Anyway, to be a bit on topic, it's quite remarkable that most of us celebrate something at this time of year whether one is a Christian or not. It's probably the greatest promotional device that Christianity has! What a display during this time of year. How can one not be impressed? It matters not to me what day Jesus was born. It matters not that Christmas is sometimes filled more with spirits than spirit. It's a day of peace, the one day that even curmudgeons like me look around and think there may be something more.

This is a quote from your url....

"....the Catholic Mass is one of demonic deprivation and truly blasphemes & trangresses the Blood at Calvary...."

Then, you refer to the Catholic religion as aka the Harlot, the Great Whore, and the Mother of Abominations.

This is bull****. You don't know what you are talking about. Why would you come over to a site where you know that Phil is Catholic and post such nonsense here? Are you looking for a fight?

Take your anti-Catholic propaganda and shove it.

qt

Take your anti-Catholic propaganda and shove it.

Woo hoo!! Hi fives to uraqt on that one! We finally agree on something!

These sorts of criticisms aren't new, of course. They are based in not only ignorance of Catholicism, but of hatred toward Catholics. They've been answered in Catholic web sites all over, but that doesn't stop the antagonists from continuing to spread their lies.

I'll leave this one open a little longer to see if any respectful discussion and attempts at dialogue emerge. If that's not possible, I'll close it.

Phil

the Great Whore, and the Mother of Abominations.

I thought those terms were reserved for America by a certain middle eastern dictator. Saddam? Are you up late again with no one to talk to?

Take your anti-Catholic propaganda and shove it.

I didn't need my usual morning caffeine to be jolted awake. LMAO.

Hi all - simply had to reply to this one! It was simply too ironic that the birth of the Prince of Peace is being discussed with such "violence". Why does it matter on what day this gift is celebrated? What does it matter how it is celebrated? What really matters is that it is celebrated and remembered with thanks and praise and joy and wonder and humility. I am not Catholic but I honor all of traditions and the ministries that bring people to our Lord. Who are we to determine the manner of our Lord's coming to each of us. To some he comes within the solemn liturgy of the mass, to others in liturgies of riotous song and celebration. One dark night a child was born and God walked among us as one of us and he walks among us still. He asks nothing but that we love - him and each other. This is what matters!

Storm-force, I wish you love this Christmas and the Peace of God. May you be given the gift of sight to see him in all those who are different, all those who are left-out; in everything and everyone you meet and in seeing him, may you embrace him and welcome him as he has welcomed all of us, the poor, the leper, the Pharisee, the prostitute, the saint and the sinner.

May we all celebrate his birth in the way that we choose but may we also respect and honor the ways of others.

Peace all...!
Wanda

Originally posted by Phil:

Woo hoo!! Hi fives to uraqt on that one! We finally agree on something!


Amen!

Thank you Brad, Phil, and Wanda for your support. I was just coming back to edit my post and try to say what I said in a more refined way. I thought that since it was Sunday everyone would be busy and no one would have seen it yet.....so much for that theory. Well, at least you all know where I stand on this one.

Phil, you might want to consider deleting the url for that site. I am guessing that it is filled with anti-Catholic, hate material. Now, you and Brad both know that I try to be as open as possible when I think fair dialogue is a possibility. The things I've seen there just don't indicate that possibility......I don't think we should tolerate 'hate' sites especially when they masquerade as 'religious' sites.

What do you think?

Thanks.

qt

I don't think we should tolerate 'hate' sites especially when they masquerade as 'religious' sites.

Uraqt: personally I'm torn between the beautiful words written by Wanda and the frank, direct words written by yourself. I believe that shinning the light of day onto such radical ideas does more good than simply ignoring them. However, if someone painted a mustache on the Mona Lisa I'd prefer they wipe it off and put the perpetrator in jail rather than sit down and have a calm discussion about vandalism. Delete away, Phil.

Originally posted by Brad Nelson:

Uraqt: personally I'm torn between the beautiful words written by Wanda and the frank, direct words written by yourself. I believe that shinning the light of day onto such radical ideas does more good than simply ignoring them. However, if someone painted a mustache on the Mona Lisa I'd prefer they wipe it off and put the perpetrator in jail rather than sit down and have a calm discussion about vandalism. Delete away, Phil.

Brad, Phil, Wanda,

One of my concerns is that children who have not yet developed their powers of discrimination might see the subject header about Jesus and Christmas and be interested in the site. In that case, it might be good for us to mention some of the ways to discern between sites.......but, I'd rather just see it not get any pr at all......

qt

Phil, you might want to consider deleting the url for that site. I am guessing that it is filled with anti-Catholic, hate material. . .

Sort of like the ones on vegetarianism?

No, I'll leave it, for the replies deal admirably well with the issues. It's not like it's too hard to bump into anti-Catholicism, so one had best be prepared on how to deal with it.

Good posts from you, Brad and Wanda. Thanks all. I'll leave this open awhile longer to see what happens.

Phil

Originally posted by Phil:
Phil, you might want to consider deleting the url for that site. I am guessing that it is filled with anti-Catholic, hate material. . .

Sort of like the ones on vegetarianism?

lol....won't even dignify that one with a reply......

Whatever you and the group decide Phil.....

Perhaps you'll get a dialogue going...

Good Luck!

qt

"No, I'll leave it, for the replies deal admirably well with the issues. It's not like it's too hard to bump into anti-Catholicism, so one had best be prepared on how to deal with it."

I agree completely Phil... ignoring it or deleting it will not make it go away. Things like this need to be answered.

Just one more example of discrimination rearing its ugly head.

LOL
Wanda

Just one more example of discrimination rearing its ugly head.

Oh yeah. Some of my best friends are Catholic. Actually, in high school, they were. Many Catholic families sent their kids to the Star of the Sea elementary and middle school. When they then transferred over to high school they were definitely at least a year ahead of everyone else. I'll catch hell in some quarters for this but kids like that make a great case for school vouchers.

More on topic: I've certainly had my share of preconceptions about Catholics. And if your first exposure is primarily focused on some of those earlier Popes, the Inquisition, indulgences and etc. etc. it's not too hard for a young kid to just see the negative side. Of course now I see that any institution can have rotten apples but that doesn't make the entire institution bad. I think I learned this in my 30's. Some people in their 50's still don't get it. I probably would have learned it even earlier if I wouldn't have been so gullible and naive to the influences of the media which even years ago had a severe slant.

Heck even the Crusades have been PC'd to death. The reality is not always too nice (both sides were brutal) but my view was severely distored by what I've seen on TV included a so-called documentary titled "The Crusades" and narrated by the very biased Terry Jones (ex-Monty Python). I still have much to learn about the Crusades but one thing they don't often tell you is that the Crusaders were also defending Europe from the invasion of Islamic military forces.

So to wrap this up, any knucklehead can pull a few facts out of the air and make a case for some grand conspiracy or whatever. And the media (including the internet I suppose) can have a tremendous effect on what people believe to be the truth. This is a case where one should be very discriminating with what they accept as fact.

I grew up in a very small town and it was rife with predjudice. There were no blacks living there although we did have a teacher who was black. She lived in another town though - our token black. The most animosity was voiced against the Italians (all mafia you know) and the Irish got their share (not too bad, but definitely tend to be lazy drunks). I remember when Kennedy was running for President. Catholics were almost subversive (if push came to shove they would side with Rome. Can't have the Pope running the country you know.) Thankfully, I was raised a bit differently. There were three of us girls that hung around together - me, a Catholic and a Baptist. We not only hung around together but we worshipped together at times too in one or the other of our churches and learned to appreciate and respect each others traditions.
We blame the Crusades on the Roman church, forgetting that we were all the Roman church at that point in time. All of our roots are within the Roman church as well as in Judiasm. We are all the sons and daughters of Abraham and are all the disciples of Christ. We are all parts of the one Body - the church universal. We just happen to be different parts.
The Islamic prayer you shared with us today as part of the daily seed perhaps illustrates this better than I can.
Send Thy peace O Lord
that we may think, act, and speak harmoniously.
Send Thy peace O Lord,
that amidst out worldly strife, we may enjoy Thy bliss.
Send Thy peace O Lord,
that we Thy children on earth may all unite in one family.

Peace,
Wanda

Brad... your comment about the internet tied right into what I have been pondering this morning. At the time of the early church, people gathered in the market place to discuss, debate, learn, teach and generally communicate with each other. We don't do that today. Malls are not very conducive to public discussions and debates. People are not encouraged to simply hangout anywhere in public places.
Christianity was spread in the marketplaces and the public squares - those places where people hung out. The highways and security of the Roman Empire gave them a freedom of movement that enabled the Word to be spread incredibly easily.
Enter the printing press and the Word was made easily accessible to all, but today, we spend so little time reading and it is difficult to have a discussion with the printed page. Effective but not ideal. Enter the internet. It is rapidly becoming a virtual mall, but more than that, through sites such as this one, it is also becoming a virtual marketplace - a place to hang out and discuss, debate, learn, teach and generally communicate with each other.
Thanks Phil for helping this place be more than just another mall - for creating the public square in the middle of the plaza.
Wanda

Thanks Phil for helping this place be more than just another mall - for creating the public square in the middle of the plaza.
Wanda


Wanda,

Isn't that where they execute people?

Your resident "liberal"

qt

uraqt
"Isn't that where they execute people? "

Well..... that too.

Sorry... too many "Storm Forces" lately maybe. Confession - for many, many years my problem wasn't with the various churches. It was with the clergy - all clergy but that's another story.

LOL, Wanda

Originally posted by Wanda:
uraqt
"Isn't that where they execute people? "

Well..... that too.


You do know that I'm joking with you????? Please don't be embarassed. I figure since I seem to be the group "liberal", I might be the one that finds out from first hand experience. I keep thinking about the old days....Puritans, right?



Sorry... too many "Storm Forces" lately maybe. Confession - for many, many years my problem wasn't with the various churches. It was with the clergy - all clergy but that's another story.

If you ever want to share the clergy story, I'm interested.

Thanks for the laugh.

qt

I figure since I seem to be the group "liberal", I might be the one that finds out from first hand experience.

Ha! Actually, uraqt, I know more than a couple people who consider themselves liberal but actually are quite conservative on a number of topics, even to the point of being a de facto conservative. Some people (not knowing any better) have bought into the James Carville characterization of what a conservative is, even though they may have an abundance of conservative ideas themselves. But these people can't bear to think of themselves being associated with religious fanatics, abortion clinic bombers and starvers of children and the elderly. Ah, so it goes with effective propoganda.

It certainly seems you are a sincere and thoughtful liberal, uraqt, but would it shock you do know that I was once a liberal and not a very thoughtful one at that! What changed me was both simple and profound: I became aware that the media had a very liberal slant. Once I realized that newspaper and TV facts do not necessarily equal unvarnished truth a whole new world opened up to me.

Liberals are ok in my book because I know they're on their journey to compassionate conservatism.

Brad wrote:
Ha! Actually, uraqt, I know more than a couple people who consider themselves liberal but actually are quite conservative on a number of topics, even to the point of being a de facto conservative....

Brad, I agree with you. I really don't consider myself a liberal, at all. I'm just joking. I'm basically eclectic. In fact I really hesitate to seriously apply general labels like conservative and liberal to people because each person is so unique. As I've said elsewhere on the board, I think we all have ideas in both areas.......
(even the Cromwell brothers-Brad and Phil...LOL) and much depends on the topic we are discussing....and we change our minds a lot, too!



It certainly seems you are a sincere and thoughtful liberal, uraqt, but would it shock you do know that I was once a liberal and not a very thoughtful one at that! What changed me was both simple and profound: I became aware that the media had a very liberal slant. Once I realized that newspaper and TV facts do not necessarily equal unvarnished truth a whole new world opened up to me.

Brad, thanks for the kind words. I enjoy talking with you because I feel a sense of ease and relaxation about you regarding your ideas. I believe you when you say you've come to your ideas through awareness. They obviously fit you best. I don't think you're trying to proselytize but to simply express your thoughts on various matters. You haven't been at all brutal with me and, although our ideas differ in many areas, I feel that there is a way in which you do understand some of the more liberal viewpoints.

Regarding the newspapers and media......yes, I do know that the search for Truth involves more than the news media.....I guess that, for me, it is an important starting point. I've found much Truth there that has been suppressed elsewhere.

Ultimately, Brad, I think the search for Truth takes us beyond the news media, organizations, and institutions. I'm a midlifer, too, and I've had many illusions vanish along the way. I've also found that places where I've been taught to look for Truth, i.e. certain institutions, etc., are not necessarily places where I've found it most prevalent.

You sound like you've read Emerson...with your talk about self-reliance. Have you?


Liberals are ok in my book because I know they're on their journey to compassionate conservatism.

lol....Thanks for the laugh.....Bradley Cromwell.....


qt

Help...I've been relegated to the ranks of the conservatives! For a die hard Democrat that is hard to take. Hehehe. Actually, I think I tend more towards the middle of the road. Like a true Libra - I prefer things balanced and in harmony.
Actually I have come to really dislike labels of all kinds...

"If you ever want to share the clergy story, I'm interested."
That's a hard question actually. Bottom line though I think it had a lot to do with my expectations. As a child I though that all clergy were somehow holier than the rest of us - or should be anyhow. When I realized that they were not fitting into my definition of what it means to be holy (which has been adjusted a bit over the years) I saw them as being hypocritical... they preached one thing and lived another. I remember one guy in particular. There were kids in his congregation whose families I knew had next to nothing and he drove around in a new cadillac - which they had helped buy. It just didn't seem right. My friends were getting killed in Vietnam, the whole civil rights movement was going on and so few were saying anything. Church became for me a "sing the song, pass the plate and listen to a lecture exercise in hypocracy". Anyhow, to make a long story short - or shorter, I grew up. I guess you could say they evolved from "gods" to "fallen gods" to wonderfully imperfect guides/leaders/friends....


Uraqt:
" Ultimately, Brad, I think the search for Truth takes us beyond the news media, organizations, and institutions. I'm a midlifer, too, and I've had many illusions vanish along the way. I've also found that places where I've been taught to look for Truth, i.e. certain institutions, etc., are not necessarily places where I've found it most prevalent."

You hit the nail on the head with this one. I think we often get closer to the truth simply by communicating (ie. talking and listening) with each other.

That's why I love this place... you all have taught me so much but maybe more importantly you also have made me laugh ....

"Isn't that where they execute people?" Knew you were joking, uraqt but reading back over our comments, realized that we did do a pretty good job on Storm-force. Can't imagine him anticipating any other response though.

well.. I will wander off on that note to bake, shop, decorate, and all of that good stuff, while you guys chat away and prepare to enjoy the fruits of our labor.

Peace,
Wanda

You sound like you've read Emerson...with your talk about self-reliance. Have you?

No, uraqt, but it sounds like I should!

In fact I really hesitate to seriously apply general labels like conservative and liberal to people because each person is so unique.

That's difficult to argue with because I think you're right. But there are political philosophies that CAN be neatly categorized. There are those who think the best answer is to give people fish and help them eat for a day and those who believe that its best to teach them to fish so that they can eat for a lifetime. And it does fit with the conservative philosophy to simply give fish to those people who can't even hold a fishing pole. But as soon as word gets out about this you'll find a lot more people who claim similar ailments. One has to be very discriminating when handing out public money. Unfortunately it's usually much more difficult for the government to make true distinctions based on need then it is a private charity. A debate on what is truly the compassionate thing to do would be interesting but, alas, I think you're probably not an extreme enough liberal to make it interesting. You're just too damn reasonable.

Brad, thanks for the kind words. I enjoy talking with you because I feel a sense of ease and relaxation about you regarding your ideas. I believe you when you say you've come to your ideas through awareness. They obviously fit you best. I don't think you're trying to proselytize but to simply express your thoughts on various matters

Well I don't think I've ever been paid a higher compliment and boy is that a lot to live up to! That says much more about you than it does me.

even the Cromwell brothers-Brad and Phil...LOL

You would be shocked, shocked I say, if you knew the two of us were like Ted Kennedy and Newt Gingrich on a totally different subject which is close to both our hearts. Computers. (BTW, Phil, you're not necessarily Ted on this subject. Just making a point.)

Countdown to being banned from this forum ...three...two...one...

You would be shocked, shocked I say, if you knew the two of us were like Ted Kennedy and Newt Gingrich on a totally different subject which is close to both our hearts. Computers. (BTW, Phil, you're not necessarily Ted on this subject. Just making a point.)

Yep, only it's difficult to take that topic too seriously! In the end, we both know that Apple will "make it right" for everyone, or the 3rd party programmers will fill in the gaps. And, no matter what, it's a little easier to suffer through some of those discussions than it is on some of the other forums we participate in, where religion, patriotism, and the U.S. are so harshly and unfairly criticized.

Good to see this interaction taking place. We seem to have developed a core group of sorts out here, which is how things go on almost every other forum of this sort I've been part of. Any newcomers reading this: you are welcomed by all of us here! Jump in and have a say.

Brad, your comments earlier about how you were once kind of negative toward Catholics should be a good reminder to us all to look a little deeper than the prevailing/conventional characterizations to see what something is about. Dismissing Catholicism because of things like crusades and inquisitions would be like saying one won't live in the U.S. because we had Watergate, the Iran-Contra scandal, and other unsavory things (like affirmative action ). We don't always live what we profess or hold to be the ideal, and that IS a problem, but one we can all understand, I hope.

Also, there's something wrong with using rare and controversial negative apsects to characterize a group or organization--almost mean-spirited, I think!! Who among us would want to be known only in terms of our worst sins or mistakes?

During the times when institutional Church was leading the charge for the Crusades and the Inquisition, Catholic religious orders were feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, teaching the ignorant, etc. Great Saints and mystics were leading profound spiritual reforms, theological revolutions that shaped much of Western society were underway, and countless millions were being nourished in the Faith, making the world a better place for all.

One could point out positive things happening during the times of Watergate and Iran-Contra as well . . . like, for example, the fact that our government DID have to deal with both scandals, people paid consequences . . . the system worked!

Phil

Any newcomers reading this: you are welcomed by all of us here! Jump in and have a say.

Absolutely. I know it can be a little intimidating when every single frigging (can I say "frigging"?) word that one says is parsed for meaning and open to fault-finding. But it's not the flowery language, rapier wit (except in my case) or air-tight logic that makes a good post. It's sincerity. I'm a BIG believer in plain-spoken people like Will Rogers and Mark Twain. Trust that while your opinions may be challenged they will not be dismissed as meaningless for they ARE your opinions.

Of course Phil is TOTALLY wrong about Apple, but that's just his opinion. He's still a good guy. Mostly.