hi everyone!

i found this on a Catholic site and quite frankly, I was impressed.. Some of you may have seen it on my FB page.. but i thought it was worth posting/ sharing here.

i think all sincere mysticism ( union with God) begins with these' basics'... when i read this, i was moved by how little in some of the indicators of holiness i lack... wanted to share and get your thoughts too...

love to all.. christine

We want to be holy and we pray and work toward that end. But if we are honest and self-aware, we also realize that we do some picking and choosing among the various paths and regimens of holiness, selecting those which are most congenial to our personalities, and avoiding what we find too taxing or even intolerable. So how do we know whether we are growing in holiness?

A person is typically a poor judge in his own case, and I don't mean to ignore the potential assistance of a good spiritual director. But most of us, most of the time, must rely pretty heavily on our own understanding both of what it means to be holy and of whether we are progressing along that road. In general, if we constrain our beliefs and our piety within the limits set by the Church, if we pray regularly, and if we truly try to discern the promptings of the Holy Spirit, we will not go far wrong. But sometimes we'd be willing to trade half our kingdom for a checklist.

Here are Fr. Cole's indicators, simplified in the form of nine questions, which suggest the key areas in which we should honestly look for continual growth:

1. Am I God-centered? This addresses the question of whether we think ourselves the center of the universe, in which case we are likely to be tense, negative and critical. We discern progress here if we come more easily to see the good in others, to accept the dispositions of Providence cheerfully, and to trust in God even in the midst of trials and temptations.

2. Do I take joy in serving others? There may be times when either our normal duties or interruptions in our routine demand that we occupy ourselves with tasks we do not particularly enjoy, primarily for the benefit of others. We are growing in charity if we find such services easier to perform over time, especially with a sincere desire to be of benefit, and if we gain the ability to remain recollected and prayerful even when doing something we do not naturally enjoy.

3. Do I hate sin? As time goes on, if we are growing spiritually, we should be increasingly averse not only to great sins but to lesser ones. We should be developing a progressively stronger resolve to avoid anything – including objectively innocent pursuits – which can be an obstacle to our union with God. And of course we should be actively seeking the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, which are the opposite of the disposition to sin.

4. Is my conscience delicate? This is closely related, and refers to the need to become ever more sensitive in discerning what is displeasing to God. In the beginning, for example, we may wish to avoid adultery but think nothing of flirting or stealing the odd kiss or two. In time, true growth demands that we more clearly perceive the sinful attitudes at work across the board. Then we will become more watchful over our virtue, even in our thoughts, and we'll also more easily distinguish among degrees of sin, and between temptation and sin.

5. Am I humble? To use Fr. Basil's own words, a sense of humility "means a submission to whatever God desires in the moment, even if it means being unknown or unrecognized." Pride and vainglory lead us to be calculating in all that we do, in order to increase in stature before the world. But God wants our personal surrender to Himself and to those who, in each moment, represent His will.

6. Am I faithful in prayer? If we prefer to lose ourselves in a constant whirl of activity, and find that we are uncomfortable being alone with God in the silence of our hearts, we'll go backwards. Spiritual growth is marked by a growing willingness to put ourselves in the presence of God, even if we suffer from dryness or distractions in prayer.

7. Do my decisions reflect truth and prudence? As we grow spiritually, we should become more adept at knowing when to seek counsel, yet we should also be increasingly able to advise others, or act quickly and decisively ourselves, in ways that will still seem spiritually right after the fact. We should grow in our capacity to size up each situation properly and apply the right virtue and the right solution to each challenge.

8. Is my heart undivided? Simply put, this question asks whether we allow various interests and attachments to conflict with our thirst for God or whether we are gradually developing a more ordered appreciation of all good things in, through and for God, in proper relationship to Him. Especially with things we particularly enjoy, we should be praying and working to see them in the light of Christ.

9. Do I love the Church? To again quote Fr. Basil, "the institutional Church is the unsullied Bride of Christ through which He gives Himself and His graces to a flawed people in need of enlightenment and purification from sin." Each day, each moment, we should find ourselves loving the Church more and more wholeheartedly, despite her all too evident human flaws. If that is not happening, it is a sure sign we are backsliding.

To me, this seems like an excellent set of indicators for self-evaluation. Each item is a tool for spiritual growth in its own right. And in the end, progress in every area is essential if we are to maximize the potential God has given us for union with Him.

Thanks so much, Christine! That is a wonderful summary. Can you give us the website from which it came too?

hi Shasha...

thank you .. i am finding it very useful too...

here is the web site...

http://www.catholiceducation.org/


love christine

Thank you Christine for your post.

love,

tuck

Christine where do I go on the internet to read the extra books that are in the Catholic Bible?

love,

tuck

hey tuck.. here ya go! blessed reading! love christine


http://www.biblestudytools.com/apocrypha/nrsa/

Thank you Christine, love, tuck

Christine, Tuck,

I went to the site you had provided a link for. The listing provided there was NOT in keeping with what will be found in a Catholic Bible; So if Tuck wants to read the added books existent in a Catholic Bible he should read from a Catholic Bible.. New American Bible is a Catholic Bible for example.

At the site you provide, one finds MORE than what is accepted by the Catholic church. Thw site lists 3 & 4 Maccabees and 1 & 2 Esdras and a few other works that are not part of the Deutero-Canonucal books found in a Catholic Bible.

FWIW
Pop-pop

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:
Christine, Tuck,

I went to the site you had provided a link for. The listing provided there was NOT in keeping with what will be found in a Catholic Bible; So if Tuck wants to read the added books existent in a Catholic Bible he should read from a Catholic Bible.. New American Bible is a Catholic Bible for example.

At the site you provide, one finds MORE than what is accepted by the Catholic church. Thw site lists 3 & 4 Maccabees and 1 & 2 Esdras and a few other works that are not part of the Deutero-Canonucal books found in a Catholic Bible.

FWIW
Pop-pop

Aw man !

Thank you Pop-pop for your input. Maccabees 4 reads like a version of the Book of Mormon and I was wondering about that.

Pop-pop why are there four Maccabees? And if one and two are real, then why are three and four not real? Where did these Maccabees come from?

And this might be a bit off topic, but what does FWIW mean?

love,

tuck

Tuck,

I have no idea where 3 & 4 Maccabees or Esdras or the rest came from. Nor why 1 & 2 Mac are considered part of authentic revelation etcetc. To be honest, I don't care nor have the desire to dig all that out. If it is a burning need of yours I am sure you can and will pursue it. I am not the whole Catholic church. I don't have to question everything to the nth degree before I accept anything. Life is too short. I trust the church and what has evolved; I have no desire to place my hands into its wounded side -- so to speak. One can be a Thomas forever and in every little regard. I don't think that the Lord was all that pleased with Thomas's desires anyway.

Happy hunting!

quote:

I have no idea where 3 & 4 Maccabees or Esdras or the rest came from. Nor why 1 & 2 Mac are considered part of authentic revelation etcetc. To be honest, I don't care nor have the desire to dig all that out. If it is a burning need of yours I am sure you can and will pursue it

I know I keep harping on the "fact vs. opinion" distinction, but it's easy enough to track down facts and to become informed about them. I've spent a lot of time through the years (waaay too much!) correcting misinformation that could have easily been researched on Google or other places. E.g., just type a search query, "how the Bible came to be?" (no quotes) and one will find plenty of info. Or try, "how the Catholic bible came to be" and you'll find out about the difference between the Septuagint collection and the Hebrew collection. Luther chose to go with the latter, but before that, the Church was using the Septuagint, and still is.

Here's a general guideline that might be difficult to ferret out. No book is included in the New Testament unless:
1. it was written by an Apostle or close associate of an Apostle.
2. it was widely used in the Church's liturgy and catechesis;
3. it was written before 100 A.D., around the time of the death of the last Apostle, St. John the Evangelist.

These three criteria explain why the writings of early Church fathers and gnostic gospels were not included in the early collections of "in-books."

thanks pops.. i should have taken more time to look at it and not just glance..

what's interesting is i goggled books in the 'catholic bible'.. and that popped up .... oh my...

quote:

I have no idea where 3 & 4 Maccabees or Esdras or the rest came from. Nor why 1 & 2 Mac are considered part of authentic revelation etcetc. To be honest, I don't care nor have the desire to dig all that out. If it is a burning need of yours I am sure you can and will pursue it

I agree with Phil... my goodness, no need to get into all that... keep it simple... just follow Jesus..

Katy

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:
Tuck,

I have no idea where 3 & 4 Maccabees or Esdras or the rest came from. Nor why 1 & 2 Mac are considered part of authentic revelation etcetc. To be honest, I don't care nor have the desire to dig all that out. If it is a burning need of yours I am sure you can and will pursue it. I am not the whole Catholic church. I don't have to question everything to the nth degree before I accept anything. Life is too short. I trust the church and what has evolved; I have no desire to place my hands into its wounded side -- so to speak. One can be a Thomas forever and in every little regard. I don't think that the Lord was all that pleased with Thomas's desires anyway.

Happy hunting!

Thank you Pop-pop. Blind faith is always best.

love,

tuck

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:

quote:

I have no idea where 3 & 4 Maccabees or Esdras or the rest came from. Nor why 1 & 2 Mac are considered part of authentic revelation etcetc. To be honest, I don't care nor have the desire to dig all that out. If it is a burning need of yours I am sure you can and will pursue it

I know I keep harping on the "fact vs. opinion" distinction, but it's easy enough to track down facts and to become informed about them. I've spent a lot of time through the years (waaay too much!) correcting misinformation that could have easily been researched on Google or other places. E.g., just type a search query, "how the Bible came to be?" (no quotes) and one will find plenty of info. Or try, "how the Catholic bible came to be" and you'll find out about the difference between the Septuagint collection and the Hebrew collection. Luther chose to go with the latter, but before that, the Church was using the Septuagint, and still is.

Here's a general guideline that might be difficult to ferret out. No book is included in the New Testament unless:
1. it was written by an Apostle or close associate of an Apostle.
2. it was widely used in the Church's liturgy and catechesis;
3. it was written before 100 A.D., around the time of the death of the last Apostle, St. John the Evangelist.

These three criteria explain why the writings of early Church fathers and gnostic gospels were not included in the early collections of "in-books."

That is all I wanted to know. Thank you Phil.

love,

tuck

Tuck,

Tsk.

“Thank you Pop-pop. Blind faith is always best”.

Nothing that blind about my faith -- it’s not like the Catholic Church is some recent and novel church expounding some new Christian doctrines. Not at all.

It’s been around for millennia. It’s been part and parcel in the development of western civilization as we know it. It’s been the leaven in the dough of western civilization. (And western civilization has fared quite well compared to mid-eastern and eastern civilization, I think).

When I was confirmed I gave assent to membership in the church and to acceptance of her authority. And I have in my years since confirmation not seen any reason to abandon its teachings and its authority. So, you might say that I’m letting my Yes be yes. I’m continuing to live my yes.

Commensurate with that yes is trust -- not skepticism, not cynicism.

I don’t have to have answers to the infinity of questions people can ask.

You know, when I get into my car, all I need are the keys. I don’t need to know the gear ratio of the rear end, the clearance between piston and cylinder walls, how its computer acknowledges the security codes in the key, the ultimate tensile strength of the cams, where the oxygen sensor is made and how its supplier was selected or from which company the ignition coil comes from. …. And believe me, I can get along quite well and have been down many roads over the years with what you might dismiss as a foolish, because of unquestioning ‘blind faith’; but experience has shown me I don’t have to know every little thing before turning the key.

Pop-pop

quote:

Originally posted by pop-pop:
Tuck,

Tsk.

“Thank you Pop-pop. Blind faith is always best”.

Nothing that blind about my faith -- it’s not like the Catholic Church is some recent and novel church expounding some new Christian doctrines. Not at all.

It’s been around for millennia. It’s been part and parcel in the development of western civilization as we know it. It’s been the leaven in the dough of western civilization. (And western civilization has fared quite well compared to mid-eastern and eastern civilization, I think).

When I was confirmed I gave assent to membership in the church and to acceptance of her authority. And I have in my years since confirmation not seen any reason to abandon its teachings and its authority. So, you might say that I’m letting my Yes be yes. I’m continuing to live my yes.

Commensurate with that yes is trust -- not skepticism, not cynicism.

I don’t have to have answers to the infinity of questions people can ask.

You know, when I get into my car, all I need are the keys. I don’t need to know the gear ratio of the rear end, the clearance between piston and cylinder walls, how its computer acknowledges the security codes in the key, the ultimate tensile strength of the cams, where the oxygen sensor is made and how its supplier was selected or from which company the ignition coil comes from. …. And believe me, I can get along quite well and have been down many roads over the years with what you might dismiss as a foolish, because of unquestioning ‘blind faith’; but experience has shown me I don’t have to know every little thing before turning the key.

Pop-pop

As long as the "key" works. Jesus said someplace that faith in God can be based on experience. Based on my experience that is true.

Pop-pop there is nothing wrong with "blind Faith" when God is involved. Things will get sorted out.

just love,

tuck