As I have thought and prayed about Rom. 11 and Lk, 21:24 and also how God is faithful to His promises, I sometimes wonder as to the possibility He will give everyone another opportunity to accept His Son.
does that sound more off the wall than usual?

well, that's about it for me ......

Isn't this what Saint Julian of Norwich lamented, and was "shewn" "I will show you a marvelous thing," by Christ, and that "All shall be well."?

There are now four threads on this topic so I've closed the other three. You can find them here,, here, and here. Anne, you can reply to your own topic in a thread by using the Post Reply button or clicking on the quotations icon over a post. Helps keeps things better organized.

Let's keep the discussion on this thread now.

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I read these passages as Paul (a former Jewish Rabbi/Pharisee) struggling to understand how Jewish history will unfold. He seems to be wondering about the age of the Gentiles, and how it is that salvation in Christ is open to them, what the Jews are supposed to learn from this, and whether they will eventually come around.

You note: I guess it is still my evangelical fundamentalism coming to the fore....but was taught that everyone MUST receive the Lord as Savior and when He returns they will be received unto Him. Guess it is hard to dilute the ole protestant view..if that is what it is.

I think we are saved by Christ, only I can see how a very literal interpretation of that would raise all sorts of questions about the passages you're reflecting on. Keep in mind Jesus' own teaching about the sheep and the goats, however, and how it is that some will be saved who did not claim to know Jesus. "What you did to the least of my brethren, you did unto me," The seems to open the door to people of good-will who were moved by Christ and the Spirit but didn't have explicit Christian faith. That would presumably include the Jews of Paul's time as well as those of all ages.

Does that make sense?

"Keep in mind Jesus' own teaching about the sheep and the goats, however, and how it is that some will be saved who did not claim to know Jesus. "What you did to the least of my brethren, you did unto me," The seems to open the door to people of good-will who were moved by Christ and the Spirit but didn't have explicit Christian faith. That would presumably include the Jews of Paul's time as well as those of all ages.

Does that make sense?"

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Phil, it makes alot of sense and we know that God will have mercy on whom HE will have mercy.....yet we see the opposite, or so it seems, in John 6:52 - 59 says, in effect---or so it seems--that one must eat His Body and drink His Blood if we are to have life...and to live forever.

There are so many nuances, etc., in the Word and one can almost prove any point using a variety of scriptures and then someone can negate all of that with a different variety of scripture.

As a protestant [only came into the Church about 5 years ago] it was believed that if one studied hard enough and long enough you could come to understand the message and intent of what was in a certain book. I really don't think that is possible.. and the Church, at one time, IF I am correct, viewed that ONLY the Church could interpret Scripture correctly and therefore discouraged individual study of the Word. If you wanted to 'know', ask the Church. Well, that wasn't easy nor is it now because WHERE does one go to find the Church's interpretation of a particular scripture. And, of course, one dances in dangerous territory if one takes a few scriptures out of context.

So, I shall leave all of that to the theologians, to my priest, and whomever....it is time for me to return to my silence, lectio, prayer......and as God wants me to 'see' something, He will show me. If not, I best leave it in that category of 'mystery'.

thanks, Phil.......

peace

quote:

Originally posted by w.c.:
[qb] Isn't this what Saint Julian of Norwich lamented, and was "shewn" "I will show you a marvelous thing," by Christ, and that "All shall be well."? [/qb]

W.C......I have read only a wee bit of St. Julian of Norwich. IF one wanted to truly get acquainted with the works of this great saint, what ONE book would you recommend?

Even better.....is there a website where one can read her works---free!

Mary Teresa:

Take a look at "The Revelations of Divine Love" of Julian of Norwich, translated by James Walsh, S.J. There are probably other translations as well. Maybe do an Amazon search under the saint's name.

Well, that wasn't easy nor is it now because WHERE does one go to find the Church's interpretation of a particular scripture. And, of course, one dances in dangerous territory if one takes a few scriptures out of context.

I think that's a really good point, Anne. To my knowledge, there isn't any one place you can go for the official interpretation of a Scripture passage. For most of them, exegetes (Scripture scholars) have come to a consensus, and that's what's being expressed in some of the sources you cited. In other cases, it's seeing how the community and its traditions of belief and practice have been informed by the Scripture.

Regarding passages of the kind you've brought to our attention, I don't think they can be taken out of the context of the Bible as a whole. That goes for any passage, of course. So it would be a mistake to think that God's mercy and the universal call to salvation don't apply to the Jews because they didn't become Christians by a certain deadline. That's how I see it, at least.

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
Regarding passages of the kind you've brought to our attention, I don't think they can be taken out of the context of the Bible as a whole. That goes for any passage, of course. So it would be a mistake to think that God's mercy and the universal call to salvation don't apply to the Jews because they didn't become Christians by a certain deadline. That's how I see it, at least. [/QB]

Phil.....true....one must consider the bible as a whole yet I wasn't concerned about the universal call to salvation for Jews even now---or for any other individual. What the scriptures seemed to be saying was that the Jewish people will be offered an 'opportunity' to accept Jesus as the Messias at or about the same time that the Lord returns and/or when the Gospel has been preached to all nations.
It just seems that the scriptures in question give the impression that there is sort a special dispensation to the Jews---His Chosen People--at the 'last moment', so to speak. Now that could be as wrong as rain....but I know that God does not go back on His Word.....and I see those scriptures of sort of saying that God still has His covenant with the Jews--Israel: His people. AND there will be a specific exception for them at the fulfillment of the Gentiles.

tis confusing.........eh?

shall stop trying to figure this kind of stuff out and strive through prayer, lectio, and reading to come to know Jesus more and more. He is our Beloved and I know His mercy and grace.

Am looking forward to the Lenten series! If anyone reading this......I do hope you will sign up for knowing other series Phil has done, it will be great. And by then it will be Lent and *I* will be in a definite Lenten silence!

peace