Hi Everybody,

There has been a lot of discussion lately on issues of good and evil / true and false spirituality.

I watched a documentary recently on the discovery channel showing the healing work of this man John of God .

By his own admission he performs his healing by channeling and spiritism. Among the spirits channeled, we are told, are King Solomon, Francis of Assisi and Ignatius of Loyola (and about 30 others). It was strange to watch as it appeared many people were benifiting from his operations. He performs operations while under a trance and while channeling various spirit entities. He has no recollection of anything that takes place during these channeling sessions.

Since these practices are explicitly condemned in the Old Testament I was wondering whether anybody here thought that perhaps what he was doing was acceptable in some way. I personally do not think so but would like to hear if anybody else does and why.

I was also wondering if anybody wanted to comment on the fact that there is so much reference to Christiantity within his work and yet these practices are clearly condemned by actual Christians and the Bible. If this man is channeling demons then why would they be on a healing mission, especially given the discussions on this website concerning the nature of real evil as contrary to Love and acts of Love?

To me it raises questions as to the thinking of evil spirit as it interacts with humanity (I think this may be scary for some to consider that evil is intelligent and purposeful).

I know it is more important to focus on Jesus than on evil and I think I do that (Focus on Jesus more that is) but these questions remain?

This certainly looks creepy to me...here's a clip from that website:

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What are the entities?
These entities are beings that have lived on earth previously and come back to earth to help the sick and suffering. They have been doctors and healers in their earthly existence. There are thousands working invisibly at the Casa and there is always one, who, using João's body, directs the day's proceedings.
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You ask a good question here, Jacques. Is it real evil as in demons disguised as saints. Is it white magic of sorts? Or a God-ordained channeling of saints?

If it's evil, then how can it bring healing? Apparently, the Holy Spirit is not the only one who brings healing. I've heard about spirits being channelled for healing, wisdom, guidance in various cultures. The woman who wrote the book, "The Beautiful Side of Evil" described her encounter with this kind of channelling doctor who was popular, successful in the community (which I think was somewhere in S.America). She discovered it was a grand deception, that they were evil spirits disguised as Christian.

It seems like a deception to me. Why would the Christian saints operate in this way knowing that spiritism is condemned by the church?

"Master," said John, "we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."

"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."

Luke 9:49-50

Hi wc, are you trying to say that perhaps what this guy is doing is okay? It just seems very far removed from the teachings of the church and includes elements that are specifically condemned.

I wonder whether these entities are truly the saints that this man claims they are? When the witch calls samuel to appear before Saul the Bible does not make it clear whether it is actually Samuel or not. But it does make it clear that the practice was forbidden. I wonder whether this means that departed souls have limited freedom. If somebody comes knocking, do they have to answer??

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jacques,

Jacques:

Unless we saw evidence of abuse in some form or another, it would be impossible to say, unless we're present ourselves and form an impression from personal contact. He could be a true charlatan exploiting desparate people, or trying to help, regardless of how we might question his spiritual notions. Since he apparently hasn't written anything himself, it's hard to evaluate him even in an objective way.

Whether or not we believe people who aren't Christian can bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit will probably determine how we respond, more than anything else short of real contact or other means of direct scrutiny.

There's a thirteen minute Youtube video available, and it may be part of the documentary you saw, Jacques. Many hurting people looking for a miracle, or just some relief. A western medical doctor, or scientist, was present doing research to verify the claims of healing; he seemed rather skeptical, so there's a chance he'd have noticed anything unethical going on.

I go back to my original question: Do you think miraculous healing can only occur, or virtue only exist, in a Christian?

Thank for the reply w.c.

I definately believe that virtue can exist in non-Christian and if this man were a medical doctor practicing scientific medicine and helping all the people that he is I would consider him to be doing a good and virtuous job.

I also think that miracles can occur as direct acts of God on any person (regardless of their belief) to draw that person to God. As the scriptures say, Jesus performed his miracles in order that people may believe.

I struggle however to see true miracles being worked by non-Christians in the sense that God actively performs miraculous signs through them. As the purpose of miracles is to confirm and uphold belief it would appear that God is sanctioning the miracle and upholding the person's belief system. Miracles happening too non-Christians and through non-Christian are two very different matters.

Surely we as Christians can make a judgement of this man's practices based on the Old Testament scriptures. I'm not for one minute suggesting that he is trying to trick anybody himself or that the miracles are not real in some sense. What I am saying is that if the miracles are real and this, John of God, is performing them, is it possible that he is involved in something evil that is masquerading as good?

Jacques:

There's a good bit of healing "through" non-Christians in the literature, so you'd be setting yourself up for some serious and broad de-bunking if you assumed God wouldn't be inclined to do this. Are you needing to do that in order to preserve the tenants of your faith? That's what it sounds like, at least: casting what may otherwise be good as evil in disguise in order to avoid a certain conflict.

Here's a marvelous interview with Johanna Michaelsen, author of The Beautiful Side of Evil.

http://nazarenepsalm113.wordpr...ichaelsen-interview/

She was a personal assistant to a psychic surgeon in Mexico where she saw hundreds of miraculous healings. Sounds a lot like this John of God as they heal through channeled spirits--YUK.

Johanna speaks very clearly about how her spiritual 'gifts,' visions, and ecstacies (even her vision of a 'Jesus') turned out to be a grand deception of satan disguised as God. This part of her testimony is very convincing, the first 30 minutes. She addresses the very questions and issues that you bring up, Jacques, and other questions that have circulated on my thread, From False Gods to Christ.

However, I think she does go too far with her warnings about visualizations as used in inner healing, the contemplative movement, etc. She is critical M. Fox, R. Foster, The Shack, and the modern prophets such as Bob Jones, Kim Clement, Benny Hinn. She's very critical of the New Age and focus on experiences, sincerity, works, miracles, and even apparent good fruit.

Thought-provoking stuff. She feels the explosion of occultism/New Age is under the rule of satan and we're living in the times of massive, spiritual blindness that Jesus warned would fool even the elect.

quote:

Johanna speaks very clearly about how her spiritual 'gifts,' visions, and ecstacies (even her vision of a 'Jesus') turned out to be a grand deception of satan disguised as God.

Shasha, how did she determine that these were deceptive? How to know if the criteria used to determine such deceptions are not, themselves, deceptions? It seems that one could easily slip into an endless doubt-loop of some kind. Also, anyone condemning Richard Foster and "The Shack" is pretty extreme, imo.

Re. John of God, it almost seems to be a kind of Christian shamanism. There are some incredible phenomena associated with shamanism, including healings. I don't know that shamanism is evil, however. Usually evil has a morally malicious bent to it and I don't get a sense of that from John of God nor even from many shamanists.

That Old Testament prohibition against necromancy seems to be more about consulting with spirits for advice, as in seances, for example. There's certainly room for deception in that. Healings are another matter, however. Maybe it's primarily on a physical level that this is happening, while the Holy Spirit works also on a deeper level.

It's not that I need this man to be a false healer or evil. I suppose I'm testing my own boundaries and asking uestions about hat other peole thin the boundaries are. And that is exactl what I'm getting from this thread. I wasn't sure that anybody would think this was okay...but I knew based on many of the conversations here that it could be possible - specially from you w.c. (and I don't mean anything bad by that ).

The question that remains for me and I wonder if you all have any thought on it is this: Is the guy really channeling Francis of Assisi (for example). If he is, what does that say about "Christian shamanism" and the involvement of dead saints in this realm of belief and practice. If it is not Francis of Assisi, why would the spirit entities identify themselves under false names? If they are genuinely good, then why wouldn't they just say - hi i'm verin, or jobal, or bob! Why the Christian saints? If they are lying then that is enough to raise doubts about the whole practice. If they are telling the truth then it open up a whole other dimension to our understanding of the relationship between our world and the world of the dead.

Jacques, ultimately the authenticity of any approach to anything that considers itself Christian comes down to fidelity to doctrine and the fruits of the Spirit. Doctrine allows for Saints interceding on our behalf; even great Saints like Joan of Arc believed they were guided by Saints. St. Theres Lisieux said she'd spend her heaven doing good on earth. I don't think Saints "channel" themselves, however, but neither do I know if that's how John of God understands intercessory response. My reference to shamanism above was that, with the exception for the reference to Saints being channeled, everything else about it seems similar. Instead of animal spirits or the deceased assisting in the healing, it's Saints and holy people who've died. So this has me wondering if this is how a shamanistic process operates in a Christian context? There's not much known about this, for sure.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shasha:
Here's a marvelous interview with Johanna Michaelsen,

She was a personal assistant to a psychic surgeon in Mexico where she saw hundreds of miraculous healings. Sounds a lot like this John of God as they heal through channeled spirits--YUK.

Johanna speaks very clearly about how her spiritual 'gifts,' visions, and ecstacies (even her vision of a 'Jesus') turned out to be a grand deception of satan disguised as God. This part of her testimony is very convincing, the first 30 minutes. She addresses the very questions and issues that you bring up, Jacques, and other questions that have circulated on my thread, From False Gods to Christ.

However, I think she does go too far with her warnings about visualizations as used in inner healing, the contemplative movement, etc. She is critical M. Fox, R. Foster, The Shack, and the modern prophets such as Bob Jones, Kim Clement, Benny Hinn. She's very critical of the New Age and focus on experiences, sincerity, works, miracles, and even apparent good fruit.

Thought-provoking stuff. She feels the explosion of occultism/New Age is under the rule of satan and we're living in the times of massive, spiritual blindness that Jesus warned would fool even the elect.[/QUOTE

Dear Shasha,

I read her book years ago, so I was somewhat familiar with her pov. However, after watching the video, I'm perplexed. I'm asking myself, did she put the fear of God in me, or am I falling prey to judgmentalism?
I spent years in a narrow minded church, it had the mentality of us vs. them... that we are right & all other paths are wrong...
I have let much of that crap fall to the wayside, but listening to her stirred the pot, so to speak.
I think that what is really bothering me here is both of my (adult) children have left the faith. My youngest trained (500 hrs) as a yoga instructor last summer on college break. I encouraged her, trusting that God is faithful to complete the good work he began in her. I know that I am reacting here, feeling uneasy that possibly my daughter has opened herself to darkness. I would love to hear your thoughts...I have poured over past threads especially from false Gods to Christ. And possibly I need to sit in my discomfort with what she said and let God unravel my confusion...I don't know. It was sobering, right? O dear... Gail

I've listened to more of Ms. Johnanna, and she doesn't seem to have a very deep understanding of Christian mystical experience. In fact, she seems to contrast it with "knowledge of God," which was perplexing. She tends to conflate almost any kind of inner exploration with New Age occultism. It's obvious that she got burned pretty badly with some dangerous experiences when younger, but to blow off Emergent Church or the Christian contemplative movement because it seemingly resonates with some of her past doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems that she has a very narrow view of what authentic Christianity looks like, and anyone who doesn't see things the way she does is risking eternal damnation. I noticed that the interviewer seemed uncomfortable with her going on and on after awhile.

- - -

Gail, our grown children have to make their own decisions about God and spirituality, but it's certainly appropriate to dialogue with them about what they're doing and why. I think we've had a few discussions here about yoga, and it's a complicated topic. The gentle stretches taught at places like the YMCA shouldn't be a problem, imo, but there are definitely teachers operating out of a Hindu perspective, teaching Hindu metaphysics and making use of practices like Hindu mantras that invoke Hindu deities. That's even a problem with seemingly innocent disciplines like TM. So when it comes to yoga, one has to discern what kind is being taught, and just how closely is it being linked to a Hindu approach to spirituality?

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
... She tends to conflate almost any kind of inner exploration with New Age occultism. It's obvious that she got burned pretty badly with some dangerous experiences when younger, but to blow off Emergent Church or the Christian contemplative movement because it seemingly resonates with some of her past doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems that she has a very narrow view of what authentic Christianity looks like, and anyone who doesn't see things the way she does is risking eternal damnation. I noticed that the interviewer seemed uncomfortable with her going on and on after awhile.

Yes, I agree that she seems to go too far, that her main good points can get swamped by her offputting, unsubstantiated generalizations. Clearly, it looks like her being burned has led to her vigilant stance. I can resonate with her cautions about New Age/occult matters because she's been there and knows the severe costs to such ignorance in places wherein most people only dabble.

I agree that she seems to be superficially conflating her inner explorations with others. It's one thing to say she cannot trust her own supernatural experiences and another thing to degrade other's openness to God-given spiritual experiences.

-----------------------

Gail, You've got some good advise from Phil on the confusion issue with your daughter. I work with young people almost every day who have had religion crammed down their throat and have serious obstacles to discovering their own relationship with God.

My take is modeling love, the virtues, especially humility and how we deal with adversity, etc. is the best way to teach our kids about God. This is easier said than done! Feel free to open a new thread on this issue if you like. Actually, there may even be one already.

That's all good analysis, w.c. It almost seems as though the only way (from the fundamentalist perspective) one can be sure one is truly on the "straight and narrow" is to go around talking in Bible verses. And when all things interior are viewed with such suspicion, the only way to hold oneself in the world is with a carefully cultivated persona -- Christian in this sense -- which is charisteristic of the false self system. So I guess the consensus among us is pretty clear that Ms. Michaelsen's works sheds little light on the questions about boundaries raised by Jacques, which are not easy to answer.

- - -

About those boundaries, then: it seems we're much more concerned about this when the issues at stake are energy work, healing gifts or other interventions that address the life of the psyche and spirit. I doubt too many Christians worry much about a pagan dentist sticking them with some bum energy or demonic influence. Same goes for our family physician (no doubt some people do check into this) and maybe even a psychotherapist or chiropractor, who are both working with subtle energies, emotions, etc. Personally, I just want all of these professionals to be competent at what I need them to do -- root canals, physical exam, counseling, adjustments, etc. If they're Christian, all the better.

There does seem to be something different about spiritual healing type ministries, however, for there we're not opening ourselves to the professional skills and guidance of another human so much as to the "beyond" which these healers supposedly transmit on our behalf. How can one be sure they're working with benevolent spirits? What if we do open ourselves to something we believe to be good that really turns out to be a malevolent presence? I take these concerns seriously, and even though people like Ms. Michaelsen go too far in their denunciations, I don't want to blow off the issue completely.

So, for me, the critical issues come down to the two I shared earlier: doctrine, and the fruits of the Spirit. These are tangible, objective criteria that can be evaluated by anyone who has concerns about a healer or movement. If fundamental Christian doctrines are being distorted or compromised, I'd keep a distance. Same with the fruits of the Spirit mentioned in Gal. 5. They're easy enough to see, and mature Christians will be able to tune into these if they are present.

Yes, I see what you're saying, Phil. And there are a few non-Christian healers I would be willing to consider because I know them so well: they are good people, and I trust them in that way, and see their virtue. They aren't Christians acting Gnostic or fundamentalists, which I'd have more issue with. But that is more difficult to discern than, as you say, a doctor or even a psychotherapist, where personal acquaintance is minimal. My own psychotherapist isn't a Christian. In fact, none of them have been Christian. Nor the massage therapists or acupuncturists . . . wait a minute, maybe that's my problem! But my own non-Christian religious background prior to experiencing the Holy Spirit wasn't dark or foreboding, so the boundary issue doesn't have the baggage for me it may for some.

Jacques:

Didn't you report recently about seeing what appeared to be a demon as you were drifting off to sleep, and that you turned your attention toward it rather than rebuking it, and it changed and lost its ominous visage?

If so, does this kind of awareness help you in discerning boundaries of the sort you're describing?

Phil & Stasha,

Thank-you for responding. My confusion was due to what Johanna Michaelsen said about yoga. She alluded (if not came right out) and said that it was a tool of evil, and that pierced my heart with grief & fear, because I encouraged my daughter to become a yoga instructor, knowing full and well that she rejects Christianity.

I spent years with folks like J.M. but I never fit, because I struggled like a crazy woman and I didn't always hide it. She reminded me of the women at my old fundamentalist church, somewhat like stepford christians, always quoting scripture, especially when I asked how I could deal with or change all that was either mean or broken inside of me. See darkness inside wasn't allowed, because we were the advertisement for Christ and if we didn't live as a Godly example according to the bible then our testimony was poor and we wouldn't win souls for Christ. Like it was only up to us.

I don't believe that you all expect an apology, but I feel a little foolish here, for my knee jerk reaction to J.M. video. Sorry I wasn't as clear as I needed to be in my first posting with my question about yoga.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: w.c.,

quote:Gail, our grown children have to make their own decisions about God and spirituality, but it's certainly appropriate to dialogue with them about what they're doing and why. I think we've had a few discussions here about yoga, and it's a complicated topic. The gentle stretches taught at places like the YMCA shouldn't be a problem, imo, but there are definitely teachers operating out of a Hindu perspective, teaching Hindu metaphysics and making use of practices like Hindu mantras that invoke Hindu deities. That's even a problem with seemingly innocent disciplines like TM. So when it comes to yoga, one has to discern what kind is being taught, and just how closely is it being linked to a Hindu approach to spirituality?

Phil,

So thankful for this forum. I have quieted down and I'm not so worried about my daughters involvement in yoga. (And we do have heart to heart talks) Reading the posts of everyone and processing what was really going on inside of me after listening to J.M. has really helped.

Phil, you wrote:

quote:

I don't think Saints "channel" themselves, however, but neither do I know if that's how John of God understands intercessory response.

It definitely appears that John of God and his group position themselves within the philosophy and practice of spiritism as they describe themselves as mediums. They operate as mediums using a Christian theological backdrop.

This is from their website where an artistic rendering of John's healing is discussed:

quote:

For many years, Saint Ignatius de Loyola has been John of God’s main spiritual guide and worked with him to heal countless people...Inside the clinic hangs the picture "John of God Channeling Saint Ignatius De Loyola" below. It explains the forces of love guiding the healing work of John of God. In the centre of the picture is John of God his hands resting on a reclining patient. To his right is a group of meditating mediums. Above this group is Jesus Christ with his arm extended. On Jesus’ arm are 2 entities that help with the healing work in the clinic. And at John of God’s side, guiding his hands, is Saint Ignatius de Loyola receiving energy from Jesus Christ. We clearly see that John of God, Saint Ignatius de Loyola and the other entities are all doing the work of Jesus Christ.

Later on another page :

quote:

João Teixeira de Faria, internationally known as John of God or João de Deus, is arguably the most powerful unconscious medium alive today and possibly the best-known healer of the past 2000 years.

However, João is a humble man who is very clear about one thing: “I do not cure anybody. God heals, and in his infinite goodness permits the Entities to heal and console my brothers. I am merely an instrument in God’s divine hands.” – John of God.

Phil, later you say:

quote:

So, for me, the critical issues come down to the two I shared earlier: doctrine, and the fruits of the Spirit. These are tangible, objective criteria that can be evaluated by anyone who has concerns about a healer or movement. If fundamental Christian doctrines are being distorted or compromised, I'd keep a distance. Same with the fruits of the Spirit mentioned in Gal. 5. They're easy enough to see, and mature Christians will be able to tune into these if they are present.

Phil, how do you view mediums in relation to Christian doctrine. They don't necessarily exhibit poor fruit of the spirit (not as a blanket statement about all mediums anyway), so the only criteria left is Christian doctrine. Is their something about the practice of channeling spirits and being used as a channel for communication, healing, etc that distorts or compromises Christian doctrine.

If we use the list of fleshly practices described in Galatians as a marker to watch out for then only two stand our to me here. Witchcraft and heresies. I still struggle to understand what would be considered witchcraft. Does the church have an official teaching on what should be considered witchcraft. As for heresies, are we only supposed to consider something a heresy when a group claims to be Orthodox Christian but distorts doctrine. Or are all beliefs that differ from Orthodox Christianity considered heresy.



w.c. As to your question regarding my recent experience, it doesn't really help me in this case. I've realized a new way to explore internal issues that present them selves in dark or disturbing ways, but I don't know how one would externalize that to investigate something like the beliefs and practices of another person.

I don't think it's so easy to categorise a lot of these healers nowadays. Some consider themselves Christian, but hold beliefs which are quite unorthodox; some call themselves Buddeo-Christian; there are Christian shamans, psychic Christian mediums, all sorts. This makes it a bit of a minefield. Nor is it possible to judge from the kind of miracles or healings that are being carried out. In Acts, Simon the Sorceror was doing all kinds of wonders, presumably through some kind of spirit, but his motivation was all wrong.

The thing is, many of the spirits and their mediums can turn on a sixpence. One minute they can perform incredible healings; the next they can turn on someone in hate and anger. There is no consistency or purity of motive. It's quite hard to judge whether a healer is working solely out of love or if there's a massive ego trip going on alongside all the wonders.

I've come across this on more than one occasion. I've seen healers do impressive things, either through spirit channeling or just through energy work, but then I've experienced their wrath, so to speak, for the simple reason that my own energy has mixed and conflicted with their own, thereby on one hand challenging motivation, on the other simply causing a disturbance in energy flow.

I know one woman who styled herself a Christian psychic healer after a NDE where she met with a gang of spirit beings. She thereafter performed all kinds of impressive and seemingly love motivated healings, but when my energy met with hers it caused all manner of chaos and I sufferecd one of the most frightening psychic attacks I've ever faced - even met her malevolent spirit beings.

What I'm saying is that the power is undeniable, and sometimes the effects of the powers are beneficial, but that's where the deception lies. This balmy cloak of love and serenity, these wondrous healings and claims of proximity with God often mask an underlying wickedness. I suppose it's similar to the moral ambiguity of doing a charitable work which benefits others for the sole purpose of self aggrandisement. You just can't judge a healer or medium or shaman on the grounds of the supposed good they do. Nor am I saying that a particular healer is all bad - there's a whole confusing mix of motivation and intent.

I'm not going to judge the man under discussion here. I'm not even going to look at the links. Personally, I've had enough of it all. Even within the Christian church I've experienced healers who have an ostensibly good motivation, but the energy they use has conflicted with my own and caused all kind of problems. I don't think holding to any official church doctrine makes a healer good or safe; nor do I think that channeling saints or good spirits is necessarily beneficial. I'm more in touch with a personal relationship with a particular saint as a means of comfort or healing.

Again these are my own thoughts and experiences and I'm sure there are healers out there who are genuine and beneficial and have helped others with a sincere heart, Christian or non Christian. I'm just very wary of anybody channeling any particualr spirit or energy. Whether or not it goes against Christian doctrine, it just seems like a dangerous thing to give yourself over to the unknown. And even if it does benefit some and appears to be love motivated, the spirits behind the medium are very often energised and empowered by their contact with humans and the apparently beneficial acts they carry out.

Jacques:

What I'm suggesting is that is possible to let your bodily sensing, or however you would describe your own process, participate in this investigation. If this process you now have can somewhat differentiate between psychological darkness and evil, then you could turn your attention in that way to this issue. IOW, what comes inside your body as you think of the issue? That would at least be the question I'd ask myself. I mean, once the questions regarding doctrine and virtue have been clarified as much as possible, there is still a huge area of the unknown regarding this man, especially without directly taking in his presence.

An example:

I know what feels like "narcissism" in myself, or where pain becomes distorted because I'm not facing it more openly. I also know what evil feels like, which is different than psychological distortion. And I also know what you know, or report: psychological darkness can look awfully grim, but turn out to be just an aspect of fear or longing that has been poorly attended.

So if John of God turns out to be heretical, or meeting the Catholic Church's definition of witchcraft, yet appears to be mostly virtuous and loving per reports and videos, how are we to really resolves this issue? Do we simply trust the church's general teaching on all matters resembling witchcraft, even though we've never met the person in question? Do we assume he's under the control of an angel of light which is actually Satanic?

It can become an endless regression of fear-based doubts which we never face in ourselves, imo. In the end, there's just some things we can't know, and some things we can know but don't want to know. But the bodily sensing appears able to know much more than our conscious minds can map out for us.

Would a child trust this man?

What I'm getting at is that true evil really does, at a certain point, feel evil. Satan cannot disguise himself perfectly to endlessly avoid registering in our conscience. There's always, imo, a sense of being used, or of others being used. Satan can't not use and exploit creatures; it may serve our narcissism, but if we think it's subtle beyond conscience, then I think we are possibly confusing psychological darkness with evil and not facing something in ourselves.

And I think we can't assume the church is the last word on this topic, regardless of what appears in the Catechism. I view that more as a guide. And in this case, we're left with more than the Catechism can cover, it seems to me.

Jacques:

Along the lines of Samson's post, one of the concerns might be how a healer who is being continually merged with a spirit would undergo aridities necessary for the deeper formation of the soul - assuming that aridities are necessary. As Samson alluded, the spirit might be good, and the healer might have good intentions, but at some point the merging could become addictive, or so mood-altering that certain aspects of spiritual and psychological growth could be impeded. I'm not saying this is the case with John of God - again because we'd have to at least spend some time around him to form a personal opinion i.e, whether we felt safe in trusting him in such a deep way - but as a general caution, since the soul's pain can be occluded or repressed in the midst of such energetic empowerments. Praying to a saint for help and allowing the saint's spirit to channel itself through a fallen human soul seem quite different, even though neither might actually be duped by evil.

Hi everyone--Would one of you guys google something like "John of God fraud" and give your thoughts on what you find? I did start out with a fairly open mind on John of God, but in the course of googling his name by itself--not looking specifically for negative reports-- I came across numerous supposedly first hand accounts by women who claim to have been sexually assaulted by him. And though his healings are free, people report he grossly exploits patients through the pricing of his herbs and crystals. Yeah, I know this is the internet and you can find people saying just about anything, but the first hand accounts of the routine assaults seem pretty consistent with each other. The comment by w.c. that Satan can't not use and exploit creatures may apply here.

One man who says he lived near John of God's center for about 5 years says he feels sorry for John--he says some of the healings are real by his own experience, but he also attests to the veracity of the assault reports, likening John to a simple monkey being exploited himself by entities who bear no true regard for John. The same man, Salvador, compares John to Hindu gurus who get intoxicated by "crazy wisdom". I feel sorry for him myself...though I feel worse for his victims. I guess I'm not too open minded about him anymore...

Edit: under "John of God fraud" on google, the entry for Volconvo debate forums has the posts by the Salvador I mentioned above. I'm not familiar with Volconvo forums myself, so I have no idea how credible their participants are. That was one among similar accounts of John--the others I read were from women.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ariel Jaffe,

Yes, apparently J O G isn't doing so well on those twin criteria of doctrine and fruits of the Spirit I mentioned earlier. It all does seem like a kind of Christian shamanism, but it's also a testimony to the hunger people have for healing, isn't it?