On the Love Habit thread, Brad Said:

"After all, we're not immortal nor do we even approach omniscience.�
�And I'm hardly offended by someone openly calling themselves god. I think it's just the inflated other end of the spectrum of people practicing self-mortification and considering humanity to be little better than the scum of the earth. Surely, again, the truth lies somewhere in between."

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I other then have the intention (or the time) to discuss somthing as grandiose as omniscience, but this writng stuff is becomng rather obesessive, to my detriment in some ways. But I would very much like to ponder or "consider" the nature of omniscience, for reasons stated below.

If words are simply symbols for concepts, then our concepts about them, with out some sort of experience of them, is likely an imagined one of what it is or would be like. At it's best it would still be quite vague, speculative and most likely VERY varied amongst different people. It may not even really exist, or if it does, it may not look, sound, feel,taste the way we have conceptulized it.

Oxford defines omniscience as: "Knowing everything, or much; all knowing�

If humanity has yet to even approach 'ommiscience", how could we conceive of it?

How and..why WOULD we have created a word for something we don't yet know exists?

Do we have a deep genentic NEED to believe in an omnipresent God, or did someody(s)have an experience of God as omnipresent? If so, then then omniscience is rooted in knowledge, and we should be able to know it again, and surly we'd be closer to it now then we were in the past.

If is was rooted in knowledge of it, and it is an attribute of God, and as so many feel they know or have a personal relationship with God, then wouldn't those who feel they have this relationship with God , by association with and in relationship to an omniscient God,have experience of that omnisicience?


Most of us grow up hearing, and some believing, that God is omniscient. And perhaps their souls get some form of deep peace or satisfaction trusting in that omniscience, in an all knowing, all loving, sort of all-state- like Father God, despite what their experience alone might have told them, had they not been taught to think that way about God.

So what does that omniscience mean to us, experientially? Relationally, with God or with one another, being that God is Love and reveals Her/His nature to us through our experience. When and how does our Faith and Love hit "pay dirt"? How do we know that God does indeed know, and understand, relate, care for and understand exactly what is most needed next for you and me, the children in Iraq, prisoners, politicians, countries, and every soul on the planet all at the same time?

I have never really resonated much with with "religious" faith or 'religious" language, but rather had a more sort of an innate kind of faith and used a more empiracal approach to dscovering the truth behind the principles espoused by Jesus, as I received them, And I�ve more or less, tried to live by them, to one degree or another. And of course other principles were introduced too, which I also embraced, fairly full-heartedly. It was only through doing that, that a more relational experience of God began to give me experiential sense of what omniscience might be like. So it�s this aspect of it, how we experience or know Creators omniscience in our lives that I am curious about. .

Over the years, and particularly the past 3 years when I am around Amma, wacthing Her, listening to Her, and even when not around Her, but pondering how differently She responds to each individual, and then having my own experiences and hearing stories from Her many devotees about their experiences, that could be labeled as a forms of omniscience.which She does seem to have�

SO,I find myself wondering about the true nature of 'omniscience". What would an omniscient being say or focus on, if they knew everthing. Would they bother with details like, what you for breakfast for intstance? And if so, why would they ? If we really are so far from it, "our current concept of it" , how could we have experiences of it. Can our finit minds evern understand it.
So I am curious to know what experiences others have had of either knowing or feeling Creator, Spirit, God, Higher Power, Jesus etc..or what ever you call,who ever you most relate to, as semi- for fully- omniscient in your life?.

"Most of us grow up hearing, and some believing, that God is omniscient. And perhaps their souls get some form of deep peace or satisfaction trusting in that omniscience, in an all knowing, all loving, sort of all-state- like Father God, despite what their experience alone might have told them, had they not been taught to think that way about God."

This is a bit presumptious, Pauline. You are implying that Christians, and theists for that matter, arrive at this through didactics and not through mystical insight, or via contemplative grace.


"So what does that omniscience mean to us, experientially? Relationally, with God or with one another, being that God is Love and reveals Her/His nature to us through our experience. When and how does our Faith and Love hit "pay dirt"? How do we know that God does indeed know, and understand, relate, care for and understand exactly what is most needed next for you and me, the children in Iraq, prisoners, politicians, countries, and every soul on the planet all at the same time?"


This is the very sticking point which devotees to gurus often come away so disillusioned about. Their teachers may have all kinds of psychic powers, etc . . . yet fail when it comes to morality, which we tend to think is simplistic in comparison to siddhis and other apparent signs of divinization. The list of those gurus exploiting their students via the delusion that power brings all good things shows, for Christians at least, why sin is referred to as "original," and how the relationship with God is based on grace and actually becoming more ordinary. Only through this grace can we experience the essential goodness of still being in His image, and that awareness isn't even ours to procure. And so ominiscience is one thing when it arises out of absolute love, and quite another when it is temporarily functioning through a mortal nervous system.

The notion of omniscience with respect to God can be found in numerous passages of Scripture. It is also affirmed philosophically when one defines God as "a Being greater than which none can exist." Such a Being would know all there is to be known, but would not know what cannot be known. Some have wondered whether such a proviso includes how we will use our free will, and I kind of like that. But who really knows?

No human beings are omniscient in the sense of knowing all there is to be known. Not even the human race, nor the angelic sphere could make such a claim. Psychic gifts like clairvoyance are not a participation in God's omniscience so much as the experience of our own spiritual consciousness in its partly-body-free mode. So psychic gifts don't really say much about whether someone is close to God. In fact, people possessed by demons often have powerful psychic gifts, which definitely shows that such are more about the exercise of created spirit than divine manifestation.

Pauine Said:

Most of us grow up hearing, and some believing, that God is omniscient. And perhaps their souls get some form of deep peace or satisfaction trusting in that omniscience, in an all knowing, all loving, sort of all-state-like Father God, despite what their experience alone might have told them, had they not been taught to think that way about God."

WC Said:
This is a bit presumptious, Pauline. You are implying that Christians, and theists for that matter, arrive at this through didactics and not through mystical insight, or via contemplative grace

Pauline replied to above:


**************>>>>

WC and Phil, thank you so much for posting on this. I have read other posts by you WC and really like what you have to say on some of them. I think you will both find that if you relate your own personal experiences to me of how you experience "the omniscience" of God, whatever that means to you, that we will have more a meeting of the minds.


I am not questioning that the the theists or mystice arrived at it, I am asking how they arrived at it and more importantly, I am wondering what it is like experientially for those who blieved or experienced it, in whtever way the Chrurch teaches...which would of course increase your faith.. (if you were blessed to have faith as as child , because I didn't) I didn't feel God in a relational sort of way, growing up in the dysfunctional enviroment I was in ,,,,I did in Nature though

Meanwhile, you may not be aware of exactly why I am here at SP. And that may help you to understand better the intention behind my posts.

I don't personally know any Christian theists or mystics, except the ones here, and I am not much of a reader of books.

I came here largely to re-explore my Christion roots, because I am feeling VERY called to go and be with AMMA, to love and to the serve the poor, somehing Jesus would like I think. My experience of Her is no different and in fact to me is inseparable from how I experience Jesus...it has deepened my experience of Him, as it does for many people I know. But I do realize India would be a very radical step and may be too radical a step for me...so I am exploring my roots and other options.

Due to a sort of double dose of spiritual abuse in the Catholic Chrurch, I left before I ever gave myself to it with 100% devotion...something I felt called to, but not ready for...

I have found the eastern traditions and practices have tremendously strengthened my courage in this area, especially Amma though.


I am here to learn, willing to consider that spiritual abuse issues short circuited the depth of Chrisian experience before I had a chance to really cultivate as deep a relatiionship as it might have been, w/o the abuse which made me quite gun shy, an healthily so I think

In process of my healing, I found much wisdom in these Eastern tradtions which seems to have also given me much more access to love, joy and peace then other members of my family and many Christians I know.

One of the pearls of that abuse is one has to dig reallly deep inside, and ask a lot of questions to heal. I also have used a lot of creative tools to heal via drama and dance, poetry.I hope in that light of this you can understand that I only ask what I ask for myself, based on my early experiences with the Church, which were not that great,in comparison to my ever evolving, ever increasing awareness of God in my life via Eastern traditons which have been WONDERFUL! They make much more sense to me, maybe because they seem more rooted int understanding of universal law.

So I'm am other then implying anything about the Church, per se. I don't even know much about how and when doctrines unfolded and feel no reason to learn if I first don't hear, see,feel, smell and taste a better sampling of what awaitts me from those who have embraced some of the more of a mystical Christian path for a long time.

I've never been very good at FAITH, in and of itself. I have it now, but it's rooted in the principles of what Jesus taught, more the person, the bodily form. Unlike many Christians I know, I'd believe in Jesus, even he didn't rise from he dead, or have prophecies fortelling his coming. Truth in my experience of it, does not have to be proven once it is known, rather it unfolds gently upon itself, it guides us to the right people, situations etc. Even my experience of Jesus miracles is that He only did those things because the consciusness of the time needed such dramatic displays in order for them to believe in Him,in the power of his teaching. That's how dense their consciousness was at the time.

However I do believe that devotion to him will raise ones consciousness, but it has to be real with some understanding of the principles behind it, and an active response by living as much as possible in accordance with to the principles taught.

Amma has done a few miracles as do many other Indian saints, including raising a girl from the dead,licking the wounds of leper, who is now healed, but she deliberately stays away from them because she wants people to learn to trust in God inside them...not in her. In fact, Amma often reminds devotees, not to be attached to Her form. And I think Jesus,if He came today would say the same thing.

So I have learned from my experience that what Jesus taught is Truth because I experience it as truth. I feel Jesus is part of what has led me to all of my experinecs..even the abuse. Much of his message is about 'embracing one's cross" and transforming the pain into new life. TM and many yoga practiciies helep me do. And I don't think Jesus had the ego many seem to attach or project on Him. ,.

A new and growing freind, also an Amma devotee, and a very comtmeplative friend of mine. It upset her (and me) that I feel this deep wound about the Church. She's reading St John of the Cross and did a 10 day silent Catholic retreat, praying about the Amma/Jesus deal...She got an very powerful inner vision as an answer that they are one and the same, from Jesus. And it just makes so much sense me, given my experience and much of what I have read. Jesus LOVES Amma! Why wouldn't he? She's doing his work bigger and better then many Christians on the planet.

How many Christian saintsin Church history, do you know with 3rd grade eductations,who grew up dirt poor, that is now bringing healing love and peace, and spiritual wisdom to MILLIONS on the named after her. She gets less then 3 hours a night, and sometimes none, even after sitting for 26 hours straight giving darshan, and looking fresh as a daisy. Nobody can do things like that if she wasn't totally in touch with GOD. Her grace is tangible, deepeing for peopl;e of all faiths around the planet.And even though she was born in a Hindu culture, her teachings and gift of endless flow of love, which fills our hearts and souls, goes way beyond religios differences...She is pure love.

I've got a lot of the doubting Thomas in me. So I don't just accept thatwhat mystics and theists or popes or priests or anyone here, might tell me about Jesus or God, is any better or truer then my own inner experience of Him at this space and time in my life. It will no doubt deepen and grow, not matter which path I take.

I am here to investigate and UNLESS I can see, and hear, and feel, and smell and taste, that what good, strong, devoted, Christians have and do is more peaceful, joyful and loving then what I know, why would I change directions on my path...I have big questions, and I'm looking for big answers rooted in the depth of my own and various individuals' spiritual experience, iotw, the fruits of your spiritual practice

So when if you respond in a way that sounds defensive aor fearful, it makes the Chrisitian religion seem very fearful, and non-embracing of differences.

I also like to have fun while exploring, anything and to be creative.

I don't need or want to fill my head with dogma until someone can effectively comminicate it's importance,in a kind, loving and patient way that makes sense to me and that will nessitate that they understand me and my expeiences without trying to change, deny, or change them, simply becaue I had them via a non Christian path.

Recently I have felt a wonderful delightful connection with MM. But also Brad,which is very stange as he innitially anoid me alot, due to his political veiws. But slowly I've noticed that he actually has a breadth of vision that inspires, deepens and broadens my own. Much of that is due to him being a very gifted writer. But being able to communicate ones inner experience to me in an indication of how well ones's spiritual path is doing what is suppossed to...allowing people of very different paradigmes to love one another

I want to feel from any path I am journeying down that there is a lot of love and understandng and support and acceptance and patience and joy, and laughter and all the other furits of being on a spiritual journey .

Peace Love and Joy, Virya

(Edited version added at Pauline's request)

. . . My experience of Her is . . .

Pauline, what's with the "Her"? Not another incarnation of God, here, I hope.

Also, I didn't know of your abuse with the Church. If you'd like to share about that sometime, I'd be interested in hearing. Maybe on the forum, or PM, or email if you'd like. I'm sorry to hear about that.

I've got a lot of the doubting Thomas in me. So I don't just accept that mystics and theists or popes orpriests or anyone here, might tell me about Jesus or God, is any better or truer then my own inner experience of Him at this space and time in my life.

How about the Sciptures or the teachings of the Church? Your knowledge of Jesus is sure to be limited if you limit it to your own experience.

I think your desire to make a connection between love, joy and dogma makes sense, but I wonder how important truth is in your search. Dogma is more concerned with truth than anything.

I'm moving this thread to the Christian theology and morality forum, where I think it fits better. Closed on this forum and will be deleted soon.

Now I get to play catch-up with you, Pauline. Apologies for duplicating anyone else's thoughts because I'm referencing only the first post at the moment.

If is was rooted in knowledge of it, and it is an attribute of God, and as so many feel they know or have a personal relationship with God, then wouldn't those who feel they have this relationship with God , by association with and in relationship to an omniscient God,have experience of that omnisicience?

Would it count as experience of omniscience if just a few grams of information were somehow pulled out of the Cosmic Mind? Or does one need to have experience of some kind of totality, if even for a moment? I have no idea what the experience of omniscience would be like or how one would ever know that one was having it. But I'm quite familiar with pulling ideas and stuff seemingly out of the ether.

Most of us grow up hearing, and some believing, that God is omniscient. And perhaps their souls get some form of deep peace or satisfaction trusting in that omniscience, in an all knowing, all loving, sort of all-state- like Father God, despite what their experience alone might have told them, had they not been taught to think that way about God.

I think that's a good observation, as are many of the others. How could we not say that our culture heavily influences our idea of God? Would we, if no one gave us any prompting, come to this conclusion ourselves or would we perhaps conceive of god like the Greeks did as an entire collection of gods? I tend to see the many gods idea pointing to the one god. After all, if god is infinite then that has some stunning implications. We might see all types of manifestations, for instance. So one could say that the many-god concept eventually points to the idea of one god who is omniscient, all-powerful, etc. Or, if you take away the omniscience you sort of then have to go back to many gods.

All in all, and speaking just personally, I do better when making god as simple as I can, because I know that the nature of such an Entity is beyond my reckoning. It's a concept where even concepts don't do it justice, let alone mere words. There's a Bigness there that I think defies all attempts to categorize and describe. So, frankly, when I hear words like "omniscient" and "omnipotent" I think of even these words as rough pointers to an Ultimate Reality where even the concept of omniscience is too limiting or just doesn't quite fit the bill.

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quote:

Would it count as experience of omniscience if just a few grams of information were somehow pulled out of the Cosmic Mind? Or does one need to have experience of some kind of totality, if even for a moment? I have no idea what the experience of omniscience would be like or how one would ever know that one was having it. But I'm quite familiar with pulling ideas and stuff seemingly out of the ether

Great questions...I think we get different tastes of it...or maybe I'm using the wrong word here. My mother used to always know when and when not to talk to my father about certain things. She knew him, she loved him, she understood him, as much as anyone can understand anothere I guess and maybe less so then many understand and know one other.

Now take that same kind of knowingness and multiply it exponentially when someone has a deep devotion to God...100%, 100% of the time, or if on more of a path of the intellect, they have reasoned enough to reach much higher levels of understanding then many...With either one comes an increase in intuition, and awareness of how interconectedness to eveything and everyone.
more later...

Now take that same kind of knowingness and multiply it exponentially when someone has a deep devotion to God...100%, 100% of the time, or if on more of a path of the intellect, they have reasoned enough to reach much higher levels of understanding then many...With either one comes an increase in intuition, and awareness of how interconectedness to eveything and everyone.
more later...

The thing that comes to mind when you put it that way, Pauline, is to note that our physical brains would seem to have a limitation as to how much information it can handle. The amount we can hold in there at any one time may be vast, but compared to omniscience, it's hardly the nervous system of a nematode. And yet it seems likely that the mind consists of an interaction between the physical brain and something else. That something else, I think, is something most likely immaterial, something that is an integral component, a cause, an effect, a reagent, or that functions like a scratch pad or temporary working space of some kind. It's hard to define what it is or what its relationship to the physical brain is. Maybe that non-material component is a quantum field, dark matter or dark energy, a soul, quantum vacuum energy, or even those folded-up extra dimensions that superstring theory purports. And it is in the non-material component that we might consider omniscience possible. But I still don't see us having all of it in our head at any one time. We still rely on the material part of our brains, and that part is quite limited. I think therefore that omniscience is logically impossible for material beings. But one could sort of suppose that omniscience would mean that we could move the eye of our minds around this vast infinite knowledge and light up selected patches, much like a searchlight's circle lighting up a patch of the vast night sky. That would mean, of course, knowing selected things that were outside our experience, that were outside our normal ability to know. But I don't see how it could ever know all things at once, aka, "omniscience". Or am I misunderstanding the term?

" But I don't see how it could ever know all things at once, aka, "omniscience". Or am I misunderstanding the term? "

I think I might be misunderstanding the term..
This started with a noticing of how Amma really does seem to "know" people from the most pure level of being..and it is very purifying to be seen in that light...complete unconditional love...people feel it and receeve it...Amd maybe some people reach that awareness with Jesus...but for me it took Amma to feel it, and know it ..It awakened part of my being that had been asleep...
Now I notice that is what happense whenver we allow ourselves to be seen and to recieve others..The work I do with the prisonors, would not have any grace or power if we did not see hear and love them as they tell their stories with out judgement...that is where the power of love is.
I know I am getting off track here but I do feel increasingly like I just KNOW people and things on a much deeper more relational way...their essence...without all the stuff that gets in the way...Like one prisoner..Ella Mae...I knew the fist day she talked about never having learned how to play...I knew by the sound of her voice that she was an old wise soul...and naturual, born story teller..Well, she ended up gving the best speech the toastmaster had ever heard in prison..and She taught me and the other women so much. And I think the things I know about are different then what say a chemist might find they just intuitly start to know about..
And Grandfather Macki, the Maori Spiritual Elder had ancient wisdom,,,,He was another that seemed to see through the layers to the essence of those that knew him..
I fill full with it all...and I get a lot of this same feeling a bit in dialogues with you Brad...because the stuff of the mind no longer gets in the way....it's there..but it' not the focus...at least for me its' not.. It's our souls. Buut some of this could be projection..I am noticing I have an inner story line running...a harmless one..I share it with you at some point..
Just know that I know that for me, it is no accident we are dialoging in some the ways we are now, and that I hope I can trust you to continity to try anyways to be as honest, clean and integrous (? )as I sense you are being with me, and I will try to do the same for you. You are really good medicine for me and that is the part I might be projecting, but I find as long as our projections are good about people then that is a form of faith in itself, and if someone happens to not live up to our projection of them, it's no loss really.. "It is by faith that we are saved" but for me I need real people. Now the faith I put in my ideas about why you are good for me is not the same as the faith I might put in say Amma or Jesus..but as Amma says. "experience is guru" So who and what shows up with open doors, open hearts, willingness to connect in those deep and maybe scarier places..well that is the guru..the teacher... The rest is just walking in keeping with spiritual principles that keep us on track.. honesty, truthfulness, sincerity, hope, faith, love, duty, generosity, kindness....etc
And so far Brad I get this from you...imagine that...all that from a Rush supporter...now that is a mystery to me..

This started with a noticing of how Amma really does seem to "know" people from the most pure level of being..and it is very purifying to be seen in that light...complete unconditional love...people feel it and receeve it...Amd maybe some people reach that awareness with Jesus...but for me it took Amma to feel it, and know it ..It awakened part of my being that had been asleep...

You just jogged a memory/thought in me, Pauline. I�m wondering if we sometimes don't have something akin to an openness, when combined with great compassion, that then gives us, in both thought and feeling, the feeling (and thought!) that there is nothing we don't have the answer to at the moment if we just put our minds to it. I think on the "Purpose of the Universe" thread, Eric said that quite masterfully. Truly. And I've certainly noticed in those times when I've felt a certain amount of love, joy, and compassion that all the little questions that had been needling my brain just dissolved away. And I was left with the quite distinct feeling of a primordial or nascent omniscience � if not the real thing itself. But I sort of knew in a sense that if I brought this state to any particular and single question that the feeling of omniscience would quickly fade away. My mind would immediately collapse back into the normal state of dealing with normal, real-life, nitty-gritty questions. But up to that point, and until that point, I had the distinct feeling that love was the answer to all and that perhaps there were no unresolved questions.

Yes! That describes what I was trying to get at very well...thankyou.
Just love that mind of yours !

In time I wish to connect some of the ideas on this thread to the one on Why Jesus incarnated...something like that....but today I really must work on some other things. Please let me know what you think of my proposal for your new life after your death and resurrection on the love habits thread...
www.scatteringseeds.com

I know I am getting off track here but I do feel increasingly like I just KNOW people and things on a much deeper more relational way...their essence...without all the stuff that gets in the way...Like one prisoner..Ella Mae...I knew the fist day she talked about never having learned how to play...I knew by the sound of her voice that she was an old wise soul...and naturual, born story teller..Well, she ended up gving the best speech the toastmaster had ever heard in prison..and She taught me and the other women so much. And I think the things I know about are different then what say a chemist might find they just intuitly start to know about..

I fully agree that we can deeply intuit a great many things. And if we're realistic and humble about this, it will serve us well, I think. It sure sounds like it has served you well, Pauline. That sounds like quite wonderful work you are doing with the prisoners. I don't think I exaggerate when I say that perhaps for most of us we would find it easier to strap ourselves inside a space shuttle and take a trip to the moon rather than to face the people and environment of a prison.

It's our souls. Buut some of this could be projection.

I remember saying earlier that I had somehow managed to put a slightly lower wattage bulb in my projector unit. And I think I have done so. But I realize now that the inherent state of being distinct human beings means that projection is an absolute must. Projection is like shinning a light out in front of us in the pitch black so that we can take a few steps forward without stumbling � and, I think, so that we are motivated to make any sort of movement at all. If we had to know things 100% all of the time before acting, we'd likely never do anything. We take some best guesses via our projections because we have to. We can't read each other's minds even though we can indeed pass quite a bit of information back and forth to each other (perhaps body language and such) that seems to fly under the radar of our conscious awareness. Stuff like this undoubtedly provides a little bit of the voltage for our projectors.

And, yes, these best guesses that come via projection also always show us something about who we are inside or what we want. But the trick, if "trick" is the right word, is to be easily prepared (and gladly so) to let go of those projections and to take on what we really find under the light once we have advanced those few paces thanks to our projections. And I think we get to know "what we really find under the light" by the communication given to us by another�if we will receive it. And to successfully receive it we must, of course, listen and that means being prepared to let go of our projections, to think of them as rough guides (and indispensably ones at that!) but to not let them get in the way of further communication, of further relationship, which is surely what it's all about, eh?

And even though I now believe I have a lower-wattage bulb in my projector, I think it's still quite above the normal human average. I run hot! I get into all sorts of trouble this way�but usually in the reverse direction. Because I've often had a difficult time (and still do) in real life communicating my wants and need, and being vulnerable enough to risk acting on my projections with other people to find out more, I tend to be alone and to remain somewhat isolated. It's as if I were a bat in a dark cave without a fully functioning echo-location unit. Frankly, I get a little tired banging into hard cave walls.

Do I think honest, authentic, and open communications is not just important but absolutely essential for all of us to get where we need to go? Abso-friggin-lutely.

Just know that I know that for me, it is no accident we are dialoging in some the ways we are now, and that I hope I can trust you to continity to try anyways to be as honest, clean and integrous (? )as I sense you are being with me, and I will try to do the same for you. You are really good medicine for me and that is the part I might be projecting, but I find as long as our projections are good about people then that is a form of faith in itself, and if someone happens to not live up to our projection of them, it's no loss really..

You just said a mouthful, Pauline. And you may have somewhat described me to a tee. How absolutely wonderful all other people are�at least in my mind. At least until I get to know them. At least until they fall under the harsh spotlight of my mind. And then they wilt and fade. They're not perfect anymore. I'm probably the biggest hypocritical conservative on the planet. Conservatives aren't supposed to be deeply drawn so deeply to the idea of utopia, to perfection. I ought to be a Trotskyite (but with perhaps a lot less desire to kill people who don't agree with me). Via our reason and good sense, though, most have noticed the absolute carnage (something like 40 millions deaths in the Soviet Union alone) that often results from such desires as utopia. But for some reason, we humans don't often notice a similar carnage we leave behind us because of not accepting people as they are and because of not accepting less than perfection. Mea culpa, as they say.

I like you, Pauline, but I haven't much experience really of liking people for great lengths of times. Things usually tend to flame out for one reason or another. And I hope we can continue to dialogue in good faith and in harmony. But I ain't as attached as I used to be to harmony. Hell may very well be for two people, who spend any amount of time together, both to do everything they can in order to avoid any conflict or tension. When one isn't exactly brimming with self-confidence and feelings of worth, one may attempt to just sort of roll over and let the other have their way. But in doing so it is not harmony that is increased. It's often just resentment that is increased.

So hate me. Love me. Compliment me. Insult me. Be truthful to me. Lie to me. But just don't post no quotes from Maureen Dowd! I think you're a neat person and I like you as a friend. A lot of the things you believe I don't believe, but it doesn't particularly bother me that you believe them.

So who and what shows up with open doors, open hearts, willingness to connect in those deep and maybe scarier places..well that is the guru..the teacher... The rest is just walking in keeping with spiritual principles that keep us on track.. honesty, truthfulness, sincerity, hope, faith, love, duty, generosity, kindness....etc
And so far Brad I get this from you...imagine that...all that from a Rush supporter...now that is a mystery to me..

I think that's all wonderfully said. Who knows where a friendship can lead? But in all likelihood, we'll be good for each other separately and that is no small thing, I can tell ya. But what do I know?

Holy Creative Caves Bat Man!

And what if while in that cave (women prefer wells) we decide to change our filters with viruous colors of love, faith, hope, trust..

What if we amp up our projector lights and turn them upon ourselves...via our own inspirationd, or a higher power, a diety who inspires us?

What then Bat MAN?

By the way there was a GREAT musical play written and produced here locally calle BAT BOY....it was inspired by the headline of one of those silly papers at the grocery stores BAT BOY FOUND IN CAVE ! The playwright developed it into a profound,amusing, musical about shame, predjudice, the redemptive power of love and self sacrifice..Wonderfull done..

Which leads to the magical suprising mysterious redemption and joy available to all of US who further investigate working with prisoners..
Women I expect are easier though, and it's only a mininum security prison, but some come from Hobby in Houston..For many of them, prison has been a God send, they see the grace in it...so do many of the men. We teach them to tell their stories, their childhood, the choices tha led them there...what they have learned, We teach them art, dance. There is so much talent in there it blows my mind. So much wisdom..born of oppression,and abuse. If they have the courage to transform their pain and abuse which PALES in comparison to ours...what people who are blessed enought to hear and recieve their stories is that Jesus really is in the least of these..We come out of there recieving much more then we give...They open my heart the same waw Amma does...only it can be a little retraumitiizing...and casts a lot of light on my fears and predjudices.. They also can be the best, most attentive,most grateful,most hungry audience a person could hope for..(not all of them but most... Many of the men there have never been seen or heard thru the eyes of love...so it is no small wonder they turn to crime..Rishi, Devata Chandis...The knower the known and process of knowing..are always in operation.
Very transformative work. changing the world, one story at a time
www.truth-be-told.com
(those could be underscores)

I'm not too good with maintaining consistent relationships myself. I change, they change ( or they or I won't change) but they rarely ever end bitterly ..And they only get nasty when one of us resists the change......

And yes separtely is most likely best...at least for while, a long while most likely, as I would hate to loose my Muse.

But my imagination does occasionally stir much delight in me...I think everyone should have a personal muse or several of them even. It tests and keeps the most sacred parts our selves alive.

Women I expect are easier though, and it's only a mininum security prison, but some come from Hobby in Houston..For many of them, prison has been a God send, they see the grace in it...so do many of the men. We teach them to tell their stories, their childhood, the choices tha led them there...what they have learned, We teach them art, dance. There is so much talent in there it blows my mind. So much wisdom..born of oppression,and abuse. If they have the courage to transform their pain and abuse which PALES in comparison to ours...what people who are blessed enought to hear and recieve their stories is that Jesus really is in the least of these..We come out of there recieving much more then we give...They open my heart the same waw Amma does...only it can be a little retraumitiizing...and casts a lot of light on my fears and predjudices..

I think you just describe why, perhaps, some of us would feel quite uncomfortable being around such people. Perhaps we instinctively know that they would open us up and we may not want to be opened up. Of course, we�ll feel guilty about this and likely comfort ourselves in knowing that there all all kinds of Paulines out there willing to do the work so who really needs me? I won�t be missed. And heck, I pay my taxes to help support the infrastructure for both penalty and institutional redemption, as imperfect as attempts at redemption may be. And that is indeed no small thing for it takes all of us in our various duties to keep the world going round. But that is also a very easy, and convenient, excuse for doing nothing.

I don�t doubt even one word coming out of your mouth regarding the prisoners, Pauline. Such wise understands should, I think, also be balanced by an understanding that having potential and innate talent, creativeness and goodness does not mean that we can just Pollyanna-ishly let any who are hardened, violent and dangerous prisoners out on the street which is sometimes what happens when we are over-sentimental about such things. And I do not hear that at all in what you are saying. But what I definitely do think I hear is that if we treat all these people as just discarded trash, we aren�t any better than them. If we look at them as inherently flawed and unworthy of, and incapable of, greater human things then we will have activate fuly our snobbery, our condescension, and our sense of being better-than-thou when, sometimes quite literally, but for the grace of god go I.

Maybe some moderator somewhere can cut and paste this stuff over to WC's thread on crime and punishment (or whatever that thread was titled).

And yes separtely is most likely best...at least for while, a long while most likely, as I would hate to loose my Muse.

Here�s the god�s truth, Pauline, and why these internet things are so difficult. Although my mind is definitely activated and pleased with your wonderful spirit and mind, my body has another mind, and it is a mind of its own. And the same is true of you, I don�t doubt. I can love the daylights out of someone�s ideas, opinions, and sentiments, but there is a physical chemistry that is also a factor and over which one has little or no control. And distance (such as the internet) throws a monkey wrench into all that, although the one thing it has the power to do is to let people get to know each other on another, or deeper level. I can tell you that I�ve been quite smitten (even in love) with women who, when I first met them, didn�t impress me at all as �my type�. But attraction very often grows when you get to know them.

"Such wise understands should, I think, also be balanced by an understanding that having potential and innate talent, creativeness and goodness does not mean that we can just Pollyanna-ishly let any who are hardened, violent and dangerous prisoners out on the street which is sometimes what happens when we are over-sentimental about such things."

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It's not the hardend ones that are talented ones. Creativity, at least in my own experience,, seems to comes from transformation, from doing ones inner work. Hearing their stories de-mytholize who prisoners are. The ones willing to do their work, at I think 70 to 80% of them are, have stories that everyone who hears them, says " but fo the grace of god, there go I" and the love for them is a thick, real, soul love...tangible. Not sentimental and superfical, but the kind of love that brings you down into the core of your own soul.

I was suprised myself at how much joy I find being with them..What I discovered was they are not much different from me at all. I drove while intoxicated/stoned plenty of times in high school..I could have easily killed someone in an accident under such conditions...but by the Grace of God I didn't...

I discovered how selfish I am compared to the instincts of a young crack addict (abandoned by her mother, abused my her grandfather, then used by her mother to get welfare checks) At 17 she found a baby left sitting in the sun, in a couch at an apt complex, and took her home to raise her as her own, cleaned up her act and did just that for 2 years..Only to come home one day to find that the parents of the baby's mother(who let her take her for $20 bucks, had come to take her back) She went back to drugs for a while, and in prison had the wisdom to realize she had also been addicted to her love for the child,,,but she had done a great unselfish act..

And I probably would have shot a police officer husband too, for things to terrible to even write here. He got off, she got 7 years, university liabrarian, fabulous artist, great writer.

We're getting a bit off thread here, aren't we..?
(I had to check the title)...But there is a certain omniscience or knowinness to this sort of thing..

BRAD:
Here�s the god�s truth, Pauline, and why these internet things are so difficult. Although my mind is definitely activated and pleased with your wonderful spirit and mind, my body has another mind, and it is a mind of its own.
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Yes, and I think men may be even more that way then women...They're more visual, (esp. graphic artists !) I have had boyfreinds all shapes, sizes who range from scholars, craftsmen, business men, sensitive artists...If only they could all fit into the same package.
Sometimes I have FANTASTIC dances with some men (and women) at Body Choir, but conversation with them falls flat; I've had great physical chemistry with men I can't dance with, or talk t length with, at a depth that satisfies me, and vice versa... Goddess/God is such a trickster!

Yes, and I think men may be even more that way then women...They're more visual, (esp. graphic artists !) I have had boyfreinds all shapes, sizes who range from scholars, craftsmen, business men, sensitive artists...If only they could all fit into the same package.
Sometimes I have FANTASTIC dances with some men (and women) at Body Choir, but conversation with them falls flat; I've had great physical chemistry with men I can't dance with, or talk t length with, at a depth that satisfies me, and vice versa... Goddess/God is such a trickster!


Well, this should make for some quite fun reading for those out there looking over our shoulders.

Here�s how I now envision things in my perfect, Utopia, Pauline. Some girl and I get together, take it sort of slow (although hormones usually blast through the best laid plans of mice and men�and muses, but perhaps intentions still matter), we then fall into a clumsy, hesitant, not-quite-just-sure-if-I-can-trust-this-thing-yet sort of love. We move in together (Hey Church, ya might want to look the other way at the moment, LOL), and I say �Have a wonderful evening� as my love steps out the door with her friends (maybe some of them�gosh�male platonic friends�but that�s a big stretch for me, I know�I probably wouldn�t like that), and I say �Have fun dancing. When are you going to be back?� She says �About 8:30.� I say �Okay. Have a great time. I�m just gonna sit back and do a little quiet reading while laying out the schedule for this evening�s Karma Sutra.�

Okay, I admit that�s a bit customized, idealized, and full of utopic dreams that likely wouldn�t work in reality. But that�s my vision. I don�t want to be a ball-and-chain to some girl, but on the other hand I don�t like trying to live a three-ring-circus life. I�m not cut out for that. But I think I am cut out to not suffocate someone with my preferences if they will return the favor.

In the end, as long as trust, fidelity, honesty, and communication remain in good working order, I think two people who love each other can�t ever go wrong.

(I had to check the title)...But there is a certain omniscience or knowinness to this sort of thing..

Nice try, but Brother Phil�s gonna spot that one from a mile away.

Get this... www.scatteringseeds.com is a real website! A baptist missionary one. I was just trying to do what MM does.

We'll continue parts of this dialogue elsewhere
I have noticing that being to be too open amongst those who are less so can create distance, and that is not my intention here...
I very much appreciate your being open though.

I think one of my problems with relationships is that I rarely think about what I would like, I just see what shows up. Though the few times I do visualize one, it seems to work. I've even met someone the next day. The trick seems to be to think about how you want to FEEL with that person. At home with each other, laughter, gentlenss, seen and heard, appreciated for the things I value most about myself, mentally stimulated,stretched,sexually compatible..desire..and just enough friction to keep it dynamic, mysterious, growing.
But I invariably leave out some realy important point like...financially stable.

Sounds like a sweet, utopic relationship fantasy.. It's likely though she'll want to stay out later then 8;30...Most functions don't end till 10 pm , at least around these parts, and sometimes people go out to eat afterwards.Maybe it's different up there

What do you think of my proposal for your new profession on LOve Habits? Imust know...It think it's brilliant..and may do it myself...

I discovered how selfish I am compared to the instincts of a young crack addict (abandoned by her mother, abused my her grandfather, then used by her mother to get welfare checks) At 17 she found a baby left sitting in the sun, in a couch at an apt complex, and took her home to raise her as her own, cleaned up her act and did just that for 2 years..Only to come home one day to find that the parents of the baby's mother(who let her take her for $20 bucks, had come to take her back) She went back to drugs for a while, and in prison had the wisdom to realize she had also been addicted to her love for the child,,,but she had done a great unselfish act..

And I probably would have shot a police officer husband too, for things to terrible to even write here. He got off, she got 7 years, university liabrarian, fabulous artist, great writer.

What a stupendous story. I�ve got an older brother who is a firefighter. I also have a retired uncle who was one, so I�ve heard some stories, many that sound quite similar to your own stories, Pauline. (And for some reason, a lot of their stories are tales of the various things people get stuck up into themselves�.oy, brother).

While recounting these stories they don�t seem to be exactly what I would call numbed from all that they have seen and all that they have had to do in response. And often one will hear what surely must be an instinctive sanity-saving humor that is often sprinkled into what are often times quite gruesome, traumatic, and heart-breaking stories. But it�s not done unsympathetically. It seems to be more of a whistling-past-the-graveyard laugh. Nor is at a glazed-over tone, the tone of those who have no more tears to shed. It just seems to be a knowing tone, and I can tell you that there resides a deep well of compassion in both of these men. You can tell that something was activated, although surely that comes as absolutely no surprise to you.

The odd thing about spirituality in such is that there seems to be, as I understand it, an acceptance of life as it is. I find that same �firefighter� tone in the way you recount those stories that, really, one would think would fill one with nothing but rage. (Not that you probably don�t have your own moments, eh? ) And in the seeds of that acceptance there seems to be, instead of indifference, the opposite. There is the activation of compassion. That certainly seems to be your story, Pauline.

BRAD "so I�ve heard some stories, many that sound quite similar to your own stories, Pauline. (And for some reason, a lot of their stories are tales of the various things people get stuck up into themselves�.oy, brother).

What does this mean...your brothers or the people the stories are about....I don'tunderstand

I've been told many stories by people in the firefighting profession. Most of the work of a firefighter these days is first-aid type of calls, not fighting fires. There are domestic disputes causing injuries, car accidents, you name it. And they see some really awful stuff. And they have told me some of these stories. Does that answer your question?