Will someone tell me what the official Catholic belief is about the end times, specifically the Rapture, but also whether or not the Catholic church teaches pre, post, or whatever, and the millenium. Also have any of you read any of the "Left Behind" books? I have heard that they are very anti-catholic.

I looked in the Catechism of the Catholic church and can't find anything. A T.V. evangelist that my husband and I watch, quotes catholics, including the pope, as saying things in support of the Rapture. I don't know what to think. Personally I do not believe in it, at least not in the way that they believe in it.. people "going up" into the sky.

Thanks,
Katy

Catholics don't believe in the Rapture, at least not in the way it's taught by the "Left Behind" type of theologians.

You can find teaching about the last days in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" in #668-682. See what kind of follow-up questions or comments you have from those sections.

- moving this thread to the theology forum.

O.K., Thanks Phil. I'll look it up and will probably have more to say about it.

:-)
Katy

Phil,

Albert Schwietzer, the great granddaddy of the Quest for the Historical Jesus movement, believed that the fact that Jesus thought the world was going
to end was proof that he was fallible and therefore mistaken about his divinity.

I say "wait just a minute, the data is still coming in." He told us exactly what we would we would see and what the signs would be.

Christianity is an apocalyptic religion, and I do not see how you can deny or distance yourself
from that. I am glad that the RCC is not promoting
any particular end times theory or system, but the Holy Father (who has the benefit of some inside information) stated 25 years ago that most people were not aware that we were coming down to the final showdown between the church and the anti-church. Watch and wait...

caritas,

michael

<*))))><

Michael,

The RCC does, of course, believe in the second coming of Christ, but not a Rapture, which is supposed to be a separate occurence before the second coming. I was asking specifically about the Rapture. What do YOU think? And what kind of inside information does the pope have?

And have you read any of the Left Behind books? Or read Hal Lindsey's books? Or "The Rapture Trap"?

Katy

katy,

One of my freinds keeps reminding me that the word "rapture" does not appear in the bible. Niether does "trinity."

Jesus preached about two women grinding at the mill and two men working in the field, one taken and one left. Paul had visions of the third heaven, and his "rapture" verse in Thessalonians says that we shall all be transformed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. Somewhere around chapter 5 of John's Apocalypse there is mention of it.

I have seen the Left Behind books all over and know many who read them. 60 million copies is a pittance compared to Harry Potter, but significant.

I used to be into all that, but my interest has waned. Still, this could easily be the last generation. All Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 has come to pass, it would seem.

Those Fatima visions about 90 years ago. The girls wrote them in 4 letters I think. One was published for public consumption only recently and the contents of one letter have not been revealed yet.That's JP2's inside info, and maybe more?

Perhaps I'll do a little digging later, but my prophesy is a tad bit rusty. Peace

caritas,

michael

<*))))><

michael,

I read a little here and a little there, so my prophesy is a tad bit rusty too. But I do have my own ideas. ;-) I believe in a "rapture" where a large group of people will become invisible..disappear, will "ascend", will enter into a higher dimension... yes, transformed. I think it is this way rather than people going "up", as there really isn't an "up" and a "down" in eternity.
Those Fatima visions.. yes, and they said the pope cried for three days after opening the letter. Why would he cry if the Lord is coming soon? I guess because many people aren't ready? Also who knows if that really happened.. that he cried. Is that just hearsay?
As far as the word "rapture", and the word "trinity" not appearing in the Bible, that doesn't mean anything either way as far as I'm concerned.
Well, my brain is a little fuzzy today..ate too much over the weekend. Kind of rambling here. I wish Phil would open a forum on Spirituality and Health.. physical health that is.. how to eat and take care of our temples. I know a lot about that, but it seems few others do and so I get no support.

Thanks for your reply, michael.

:-)
Katy

oooooohhhhh....wwwwhhhhoooooooooaaaa.....

Thank you, that's much better. I was looking at a book called The Tao of Physics and another which I certainly did not understand a decade ago,
The Dancing Wu Li Masters.

How could the events in Revelation take place in a literal manner? Perhaps this is why many try to see the thing as completely symbolic. Mountains cast into the sea are seen to be nuclear
missiles. This concerns me since two thirds of Americans believe in the end-times scenario according to one poll and I would not want things to become a self-fullfilling prophecy based on something we may not completely understand.

When I found out about Verner Vinge's theory of a coming technological singularity, when
technology accelerates at such a rapid pace that it becomes like falling into a black hole and man and machine become merged into a new lifeform, I thought about it every day for six months. This would be a possible explanation of "and we shall all be transformed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye."

But I could get a headache and forget to breathe....oooohhhhhh......hhhhaaaaaaa........


caritas,

michael

<*))))><

Well, on this topic, I don't think Scripture really has much to say concerning the actual events to take place. What is affirmed in no uncertain terms is that Jesus is the Lord of history and that the reign of God will win out in the end. I've read much on the pre- and post-millennial debates and have found neither altogether convincing.

As for the passages on "one taken away, one left behind," etc., I think they refer to the fate of those who are alive when the Lord comes again.

There is much mystery about all this and, in the end, it really makes no difference concerning how I am to live the life I have been given at this time in history.

Speculation is fun, however, isn't it?

I agree with your comments, Phil. And here is some more speculation on my part about the Lord coming again. Maybe as we open our spiritual eyes (with a twinkle in them), and evolve, and become more conscious we will see Him. He has already established His Kingdom on Earth and He is with us always, so maybe it is just a matter of us being transformed into spiritual beings (resurrection body) and being able to see Him.

michael: Have you read "The Celestine Prophecy"? I think the "rapture" will be like that.

You said "Mountains cast into the sea are seen to be nuclear missiles. This concerns me since two thirds of Americans believe in the end-times scenario according to one poll and I would not want things to become a self-fullfilling prophecy based on something we may not completely understand".

This concerns me also. Every time I hear this T.V. evangelist talk about all the terrible headlines and how things are getting worse, I almost cringe. It may be people like that who are CAUSING these things to happen, God forbid!
Yes, I guess it's in the Bible, according to their understanding, but then God can change His mind, I guess.

IMHO

:-)
Katy

quote:

Paul had visions of the third heaven, and his "rapture" verse in Thessalonians says that we shall all be transformed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Some folks look at this verse and say "rapture".

Others look at this verse and say "second coming".

I find the "secret rapture" theory unconvincing.

Actually there is nothing in the Bible to support a rapture idea.

The scriptures -- about being sealed -- have to do with salvation, and not protection.

We are justified and guaranteed the Kingdom if we stay in the Salvation Process till death or the return of Christ. Having this guarantee does not necessarily mean that we will not die in the tribulation.

Remember a key verse:

Rev 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
KJV