Hi Phil and all,

Right thinking biblical theology holds that the end that God has in store for believers is already present but not yet fulfilled. Lately, I've been meditating on the already present side of the picture with respect to resurrection. See, for example,
http://shalomplace.com/ubb/ult...;t=000093;p=6#000128
I'd like to share some relevant texts that I'm now considering and would be open to discussing if anyone else here feels up to it

John 5: 24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Eph. 2: 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions�it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith�and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God� 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Eph. 5: 14 ...for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."

Col. 2: 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[b] God made you[c] alive with Christ.

Col. 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Some of my favorite Pauline texts. But I'm not clear what you want to discuss.

Hi WC,

For starters, what in these text is called "resurrection" or "crossing over from death to life" is already encountered "now" in baptism or, it would seem, spiritual or ecstatic experience of baptism. In such a baptism, Christians meet Christ and participate in his resurrection, gaining new, eternal life already in the present.

That is pretty gnostic sounding: "...you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God." Again, "in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ" That sounds pretty fulfilled. But I think we can say it and still stay on the orthodox side by keeping in mind that there is more to come. We need to stay open to a still more grace-filled, sin-free, embodied future.

How does that sound to you? Does that touch on your affinity for these texts?

I think this is at the heart of Christian living, Ryan, the need to face death and enter into new life, new creation. It requires a letting go of our earth bound perspective and seeing things from God's side, where, as an eternal being, He sees us already seated with Christ in the heavenlies. To God the resurrection is actualised because the future and the eternal are present with Him. We can't see it, unless by faith and through a glass darkly, because our awareness is limited by time and space, but we have to live it.

Romans 6:1-11 is good too: "reckon yourselves . . . alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."(11)

To God the resurrection is actualised because the future and the eternal are present with Him.

There are moments when God reveals this reality to us. I remember caring for a man that was very close to dying. I work in hospice and have noticed an opening into the spiritual when a person is close to death. During this time, with this particular man, I kept hearing internally, "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased". There was an assurance of the truth of these words in my heart area. Actually, it felt those words were coming from my heart. The interesting part is in his physical life, he was dysfunctional in his relationship with others, often a rather harsh and sometime abusive man towards family.

Remembering this event and others like it creates in me a longing to see through God's eyes more often.

Thanks for the reminder,
Tate

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen:
[qb]It requires a letting go of our earth bound perspective and seeing things from God's side [/qb]

Thanks Stephen, I hadn't thought about wording it that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Tate:
[qb]There are moments when God reveals this reality to us. [/qb]

Tate, Thanks so much for sharing that vivid personal revelation of God's point of view concerning a particular situation of facing death. Very merciful.

Yes to all the above. I'm reminded of the term "the Divine Indwelling," a reference to John's account of Jesus promising to come with the Father and making their home inside us. And more and more I can relate to what Stephen is saying, as my communion with Jesus is more regular throughout the day, and not just in formal prayer times: as in letting Him in to whatever is going on, and then how His pov is just so unknowable to me, yet I'm given to know that He is working His own way into my heart and mind quite beyond my senses, but still a sense of His company that is very hard to describe as it is so much of His own person. So much of what needs healing in the senses/faculties cannot be realized by them.

As for what Tate is saying, we have the same professional vocation, and I see this more and more also: all of us belong to Him in ways we cannot fathom. We are being sought by God continually, yet are already and always known fully in God through Christ's resurrected, ascended body. We don't belong to ourselves, but to God, yet often live otherwise. And this gets back to what Stephen was referring to, on another thread, about the importance of a living community of Christians meeting in small prayer groups on a very regular basis. So hard to find outside the monastery, sadly.

And so the reality is that we already belong fully to God, but live out in fallenness a struggle to surrender so our earthly temple can be transformed into the heavenly dwelling already realized in the Trinity. God has known His creation through his Son in this way from the beginning, as the Eternal truth which we see only darkly, through a mirror dimly.

I love this starkly beautful passage:

"We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the lfie of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body . . . therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day."

II Corinthians 4


Of course, Paul was living a martyr's life, always on the verge of it with his communities. But this passage reminds me also of the mystery of the Divine Indwelling as well as the Body of Christ broken and realized in the Holy Communion.

And this:

"And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit . . . . for what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ."

II Corinthians 3-4


And so being in Christ is being a new creation wrought by the same power of God that created the universe and raised Jesus. Yet we can only glimpse the fullness of this. We cannot see as He sees; hence the theological virtues that remain central throughout our lives: faith, hope and love.

The way I've understood this is that through faith and baptism, Christ becomes the "principle of life" for the soul. Before faith and baptism, our principle of life is the human soul, which has become severely wounded by sin and is vulnerable to evil spirit. Baptism, without destroying the soul, transfers its life principle to the risen Christ, whose Spirit and intelligence renews the soul "in Christ," beginning with the spiritual part of our nature then expanding to encompass the psyche and the body, so that all the levels of our being come to participate in Christ's risen life. We experience resurrection life, but not the fullness of resurrection in this lifetime because the body is doomed to death because of sin -- it has lost its capacity to live by immortal spirit.

That's a brief sketch of my understanding, which is taken up more fully in other places. I think it does affirm something of the "already" and "not-yet" that Ryan alluded to.

For more background on the meaning of "principle of life," see http://www.newadvent.org/summa/107501.htm

Thanks WC, Thanks Phil,

I'm awash in the riches of your understanding.

Greetings:

This afternoon, off from work, my wife away for a wedding, I meditated on death and resurrection and it influenced my relationship to the world... a kind of detachment, non possessiveness. I'm reminded of Paul's saying,

"...the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away. I would like you to be free from concern." 1 Cor. 7:29f

In heaven we can eat but don't need to. For a while today, I seemed to have that relationship to food. But then supper time came and I ate as if I need it till pleasantly full.

Fortunately, I'm in good health. Fully functional. No aches and pains. We say that in heaven our bodies will be healthy and free of pain. In that respect, among others, I felt close to heaven today, comparatively at least. I mean, look at the people Jesus healed before he healed them! They were much worse off than me. And when he healed them, he made them functional in the way I take for granted. Each of those healings pointed incompletely toward the heavenly resurrection body, did they not?

quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[qb] We experience resurrection life, but not the fullness of resurrection in this lifetime because the body is doomed to death because of sin -- it has lost its capacity to live by immortal spirit. [/qb]

Phil,

Thanks for your comments. Clearly you have given this topic considerable thought and have a well grounded point of view in venerable theological company.

I have not given this topic a lot of thought. I read one article as I was reflecting on what you said:
http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu...9/v45-4-article3.htm

That article led me to this text below which seems to directly address what I found troubling in the line of thought you offered: that sin dooms us to bodily death. That sounds like what Paul says about the time before Jesus. After Jesus death and resurrection, he says,

"...don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin� 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." From Romans Ch. 6

Long quote, I know. But it all seemed like part of the same message: Through our baptism, death as a curse for sin is past and we have been "brought from death to life." The curse of sin is no longer master of our bodies as we offer our bodies to God. Our inevitable mortal death is no longer a sign of Adam's sin.

I'm sure this Pauline text is not new to you. What is your interpretation of it?

Ryan, I deleted your mistaken post.

Here's another text for consideration:

quote:

"So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed every day. For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, because we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal." (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

We see from this one that Paul does not expect the physical body to escape the consequence of sin, which is death. In fact, none of the consequences of sin are removed from our lives and from the world by Christ. He becomes the new life principle for the soul, but we are left with our damaged emotions, broken relationships, corrupt political systems, polluted environment, etc. What he provides is a spiritual beachhead from which to heal and transform all this brokenness.

Through our baptism, death as a curse for sin is past and we have been "brought from death to life." The curse of sin is no longer master of our bodies as we offer our bodies to God.

Our soul has been brought from death to life, and this encompasses the body, of course. But the consequences of sin in the body remain; it is an old, cracked up wineskin that cannot fully manifest the new life, so it will, like the seed, fall to the ground and die, with a new body being given by Christ to express Spirit.

See 1006-1014 in The Catechism of the Catholic Church for some good material on death and its meaning for Christians.

Phil, do you believe that Jesus was resuscitated and was resurrected within the identical body of His death, or that His body appeared as before but had been transformed into His Spirit body?

Yes, I think his physical body was transformed in this resurrection. That's what the story of Thomas and the wounds is all about. He still possesses a real body, not merely a spiritual body. There's much mystery about this, as he can manifest physically, eat, etc., but can also become invisible as spirits are.

I'll see if I can find some good web references. Jim Arraj is also doing a book on this topic; should be very interesting.

Hi Phil

I found the Catechism very intelligible. Thanks for that link.

I found it interesting that the only place where it cited the authority of the Magisterium is in the very area that I was raising questions: Is bodily death, for Christians, a result of Adam's sin? It states:

"Death is a consequence of sin. The Church's Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man's sin.571 Even though man's nature is mortal, God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin.572 "Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned" is thus "the last enemy" of man left to be conquered.573"

I found that heavy-handed. Have I touched an area where biblical support is weak and therefore subsequent interpretive tradition must hold sway?

On further reflection, I particularly liked two statements that struck me was more nuanced regarding the relationship between bodily death and baptismal death.

It says that, "In a sense bodily death is natural..."

It further says, "Because of Christ, Christian death has a positive meaning: "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."576 "The saying is sure: if we have died with him, we will also live with him."577 What is essentially new about Christian death is this: through Baptism, the Christian has already "died with Christ" sacramentally, in order to live a new life; and if we die in Christ's grace, physical death completes this "dying with Christ" and so completes our incorporation into him in his redeeming act..."

Putting those two ideas together (death is natural, death is baptism completed), I can start by affirming that our shared human need for baptismal "death" is a result of sin, or put positively, as a result of our need to be freed from sin. Bodily death --which is natural! -- when seen sacramentally as a final baptism, and is then likewise, a result of sin; that is, a result of our need for ongoing, daily deepening of our liberation from sin, or put positively, it completes our incorporation with Christ.

I'm curious about your opinion whether that makes sense.

There are theologies that view the "death" brought by sin to be primarily spiritual . . . that the first humans would have died anyway. Others point to the Assumption of Mary as an indication of what was likely for the first ones had they not fallen -- immortality of the body. Still others note that Mary's bodily immortality is by virtue of her sharing in Christ's life.

Gen. 3: 19 does seem to be saying that one of the penalties of the Fall is death. So do other scriptures. Sacred Tradition certainly does seem to clarify whatever ambiguity there might be about this, going on, as you have pointed out. I like the way you've put it all together in your bottom paragraph above.

Are we all in agreement that Christ's resurrection body is His original body that was transformed into a Spirit body?. Can we further say without a shadow of a doubt that Christ's Spirit body remained as such, and did not change further as He ascended and was no longer seen by anyone.

Many times when meditating upon the risen body of Christ what comes to mind is that on Mount Tabor He showed His body of transfiguration, being on a higher level. Could not the Lord have ascended in that body of His transfiguration when He no longer allowed Himself to be seen?.

I also find Apostle Paul's description of the risen Lord's body with more vagueness from the other descriptions. Furthermore there is no mention of the empty grave by him.

Are we all in agreement that Christ's resurrection body is His original body that was transformed into a Spirit body?

I'm not sure what you mean by a "Spirit body." The way it's been usually put is that Christ has a resurrected body, which is to say that it encompasses both the physical and spiritual realms.

quote:

Paul makes are that the resurrection body will be of a genuinely human type not the body of some different order of being, but that it will be a body different in wonderful ways from the body human beings have in this world. It will be different precisely in that the weaknesses and limitation of our human bodies will be no more. The new body will be immortal, glorious, powerful, and spiritual, by which seems to be meant that it will be a body animated and empowered by the Holy Spirit, that is, it will be a supernatural body. To put "spiritual" together with "body" in Corinth in those days must have had shock value. For the Greeks spirit and body were two utterly different and contrary realms of reality.

Is that what you mean by "Spirit body," Freebird?


I also find Apostle Paul's description of the risen Lord's body with more vagueness from the other descriptions. Furthermore there is no mention of the empty grave by him.

What other descriptions of the resurrected body in Scripture do you have in mind? As far as I know, Paul gives the most complete description of it in 1 Cor. 15. His not mentioning the empty tomb doesn't mean he disbelieves it. He doesn't mention the virgin birth, the parables and miracles of Jesus, and a lot of other things that he takes for granted that his readers know about.

This article has a good review of how the Church and various theologians have thought about the resurrection body through the ages.

Thomas Aquinas had much to say on this topic, going on at length about the properties of resurrection bodies, which he considered similar in many ways to our physical bodies. E.g.

quote:

As to the future state of man, he goes into details on the resurrection body. According to quest. 81 (Summa, pt. 3), those who are raised from the dead will be in the cetas juvenilis, quae inter decrementum et incrementurm instituitur. The difference of sexes will continue to exist, but without sensual appetites. All the organs of sense will still be active, with the exception of the sense of taste. It is however possible that even the latter may be rendered more perfect, and fitted for adequate functions and enjoyments. Hair and nails are one of the ornaments of man, and are therefore quite as necessary as blood and other fluids. The resurrection bodies will be exceedingly fine, and be delivered from the heavy weight which is now so burdensome to them; nevertheless they will be tangible, as the body of Christ could be touched after his resurrection. But this is true only in reference to the bodies of the blessed. The bodies of the damned are ugly and deformed; they are incorruptible, but capable of suffering, which is not the case with the bodies of the saints" (Hagenbach, History, of Doctrines, � 204).
- http://www.ageslibrary.com/authordb/A/aquinas.html , #7

But, who knows . . .

Phil, the resurrection body of Christ is a very sacred area for discussion, and since I am not a learned Christian scholar, nor have the intelligence of thousands of wise men, I can only express what a simple ordinary child of God perceives through the Spirit's discernment in reading Scripture and in knowing. The truth is that we have different perceptions on the resurrected body of Christ, even within Christian communities.

Although Christ's resurrected body appeared to be human, I believe that the change took place within His internal body, His internal body became that very body of the transfiguration as seen on Mount Tabor when He was glorified by the Father. It is this glorified state of being received from the Father that Christ ascended to the Father, as the glorified son, but who knows?.

Yes, it does seem there's a similarity between the transfigured Christ and his resurrected state. Many scripture scholars have pointed out that the transfiguration was a kind of "sneak preview" of what was to come. And yet it was not the resurrected body, for Christ needed first to die before he rose.

What was manifest at the transfiguration was the glory he enjoyed as incarnate Son of God. The three closest apostles are privy to this revelation (confirmed by the Father's voice from the clouds) to strengthen them and to prepare them to affirm Jesus true identity after the crucifixion and resurrection.

As usual, St. Thomas provides a rather technical reflection of the transfigured body.
- http://www.newadvent.org/summa/404501.htm
Also: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/404502.htm

Note Thomas' point (shared by many others) that divine glory was natural for Christ, but was generally "toned down," as it were. So the transfiguration is a seeing him as he really was!

quote:

And in like manner the clarity of Christ's body in His transfiguration was derived from His God. head, as Damascene says (Orat. de Transfig.) and from the glory of His soul. That the glory of His soul did not overflow into His body from the first moment of Christ's conception was due to a certain Divine dispensation, that, as stated above (14, 1, ad 2), He might fulfil the mysteries of our redemption in a passible body. This did not, however, deprive Christ of His power of outpouring the glory of His soul into His body. And this He did, as to clarity, in His transfiguration, but otherwise than in a glorified body.

Although Christ's resurrected body appeared to be human, I believe that the change took place within His internal body, His internal body became that very body of the transfiguration as seen on Mount Tabor when He was glorified by the Father.

It was fully human during the transfiguration, and afterwards in his resurrected state. Even in his Ascended stated, Jesus remains human, with a human body, and it is thus that he ascends. Once again, St. Thomas brings clarity
- http://www.newadvent.org/summa/405702.htm

Deep mysteries, for sure, but reflection on the implications of revelation sheds a bit of light on what's going on, here.

What a Homecoming for all of us when we shall see Christ, the Glory and Son of God, as He is because we shall be like Him. We all must become in His image and likeness, glorified sons, as His younger brothers sharing the throne and inheritance with Him.

I believe that we earthly women will also become glorified sons through the pure virgin who birthes God's light within us.

Freebird, thanks for your sharing and dialogue with Phil today. I was listening with interest. Phil thanks for your sharing, including the links... much solid teching to reflect on.

...we earthly women will also become glorified sons through the pure virgin......
----------------------------

Ryan, excellent question which is most welcome. Where do I get this stuff?

The same way that everyone else who professes to have spiritual knowledge, through the teacher within as is mentioned in Scripture that God will teach us all things and that there is no need of a teacher. This is my claim for knowing. Just as everyone else stakes their claim in knowing by study, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, spiritual discernment etc. These mentioned ways I also cherish, but the truth comes from the teacher, as yogani says: the guru is within".

No one has to accept what I have to say, take it or leave it!.

Hi Freebird,

Thanks again for your sharing. Are you saying both men and women in heaven will be sons? No daughters? I guess that would be "like the angels" wouldn't it?